EPTPurgatory Mafia - Page 134
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
Layabout had an actual case against me but I was able to survive a lot longer because Syllogism chose to push risk.nuke/erandorr instead. People need to think for themselves rather than blindly following veterans, I honestly feel that if Layabout had syllogism's reputation then I would have been lynched day1. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 22 2012 02:16 layabout wrote: @ Zephird the post was a monty python reference, risk.nuke, dirkzor and i already went through this here and here after the post that can be found here. If you want to look it up click here. Which leads me to my main problem this game: A large number of people clearly were not reading the thread!. It felt like town players were really not making themselves useful or trying to catch scum. I think that Town should have lost but they got lucky with the actions of power roles.
The case on RoL (at least in general, I don't particularly remember all the details of BH's PbP) was sound, in my opinion. On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. A lot of town players made bad criticisms of RoL's plan, because they either missed part when reading it, or didn't understand the game set-up. That made it easy for him to defend his plan and make it look good, but really it didn't do much to strengthen the validity of the plan, as the criticisms didn't really point out actual flaws in the plan that needed to be defended against. Again, I want to make a distinction between a plan just being bad, and a plan being anti-town. RoL's plan seemed designed in a way that was meant to hurt the town. Also, for me, his plan was in no way the basis for thinking he was scum. It was just icing on the cake, that he would come back from 4 days of lurking, to push a plan that is not clearly in the best interests of the town. It would have been much better to just scum-hunt at that point, and do something useful, if you were town. On January 22 2012 03:35 Grackaroni wrote: I can tell you right now that RoL thought that his plan could be good for both Town or Angels depending on luck, but primarily fucked over demons. It could have allowed us to get some easy blue shots off but if the channeler saves people now you have a confirmed voting block. This is why I considered RoL's plan bad for town. I didn't feel like going into lots of detail about it during the game, because it was clear it wasn't going to be implemented. It's bad for town, because it relies on the town using their blue roles effectively, versus the angels using their roles effectively. It comes down to power roles, which I personally hate. Now, if you compare them, it's easy to see that there's a much better chance of the angels winning out in that war. Each blue is by himself, and has to think by himself. On the contrary, the angels have the ability to privately coordinate their actions, so it makes it easier for them, and they now have a pool of players in which they can essentially double their KP, or at least make it a lot more effective. So, just in the battle of the roles, it's somewhat in favour of the angels. Next, for the town to win in that situation, it relies on the town having strong scumhunting, and being very accurate with their lynches, because you cannot assume that their investigative and KP roles will survive for long. Looking at day 1, you could see that the town atmosphere had significantly degenerated by the end of the day, and that a majority of people were playing in a way that made them very hard to tell from the actual scum. This means that it's unlikely that town is going to hit all their lynches, and this is actually what happened as the game went on. So, by removing the power roles that the town could use as a sort of crutch, you made it so they could only rely on analysis, which obviously wasn't going to work in this game, unless people made a major change in effort and posting. Thirdly, RoL's plan was bad for town, because of the combination of points one and two. The mafia's KP being able to be used more effectively by being aimed into the blues, means that player numbers will decrease more rapidly, especially if the angels are able to determine the identity of the demon hunter and avoid hitting him. This compounds the need of the town to be able to scumhunt well, because now they're losing players more rapidly than they would otherwise. This point isn't as strong, though, because it relies on the resolution of night actions. So, yes, RoL's plan could have been good for town, but in my eyes, it depended on the town having very good aim with their blues, and having very strong analysis. So, the onus of 'luck' was much more on the town than the angels, and based on how the game was going, it was a decent assumption that town wouldn't be able to play well enough to live in that situation. The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later. This is not the behaviour of a town player. This is the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid having to contribute and who wants to fly under the radar. There's no reason for thinking that he could be a townie, and pushing a plan doesn't make you a townie. RoL had no thread-presence, because he lurked all of day 1. This means that any plan he pushes forward, is instantly going to be harder for him to actually get put into action, and is going to meet a lot more resistance. So, he posts a plan that is not obviously pro-town, and then he doesn't even put much effort into getting it going. If he was a townie posting a plan that he thought was incredibly good for town, like he tried to make out, there's no reason to not push your plan, and no reason to give up on it so easily. This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Overall, that's why he was scum, and that's why he was a good day 2 lynch. Next, I just want to say in general, people need to stop worshiping vets or good players so much. Just because someone played well in one game, doesn't mean they'll play well in the next. Just because someone has a decent reputation as a scumhunter, doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when they're acting scummy. Judge a player by his contributions in the game you're playing, not by his potential. No one should get a free pass on day 1 to act incredibly scummy. I noticed this with Palmar in this game, but also in general, so I've decided to say something. This is all just my opinion, so feel free to disagree. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Anyway, you wrote that wall of text and in the end reached the same conclusion I did The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later. This has little to do with the content of his plan | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
What motivation could he have for lurking for 72 hours then suggesting a pro-scum plan? Why, he 's scum of course :D | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 22 2012 05:25 syllogism wrote: I don't give good people a free pass, I just consider it optimal play not to lynch good players on day 1 unless there are no alternative lynches of similar quality. In the long run this should be better play. I will adjust based on the player pool, so if the game has a bunch of good players, it's much safer to go after one. It's not even just that, I like to keep players who I like playing with around, though this is obviously not a good excuse, but just another incentive. Anyway, you wrote that wall of text and in the end reached the same conclusion I did This has little to do with the content of his plan I wasn't really talking about you, but there were lots of people making terrible excuses for Palmar's play. I don't really care who someone is, or how good they are if they're acting scummy. If anything, more experienced players should be held to a higher standard. If someone with one game played seems as scummy as someone with many games under their belt, which one is more likely to be playing badly and which is more likely to be scum? That's why I've stopped liking 'safe' lynches. If someone doesn't want to get lynched, then they should step up their play and prove that they shouldn't be lynched. Also, my wall of text was addressing the people who were saying that RoL's plan was pro-town. That has nothing to do with why he was scum, which I discussed later. I just wanted to say why even though RoL said his plan could be good for angels or town, it was actually a lot more likely to end up favouring the angels, based on the play of the game. I'm not sure why you're quoting that and talking about the contents of the plan, when I said this: This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Can you clarify?And when did you come to the conclusion RoL was scum? I remember you were against lynching RoL on day 2. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
I was only "against" lynching RoL on day 2 because when I woke up there was suddenly a new wagon on him, which at the time seemed strange given the events of day 1 and because I thought I had to see risk flip (scum...) to know how to proceed next. I said I found him scummy, but again we can only lynch one a day and the game had 6 scum. If risk and rol had both been scum, as seemed quite possible to me at the time, risk's lynch would have produced much more useful information. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 22 2012 05:49 syllogism wrote: Holding people to a higher standard is a nice thought but doesn't seem optimal play in a player pool where often a few players win games for town. Also I don't think your case against palmar was quite as strong as you think; palmar genuinely thought even after the game that it was weak, which is one of the reasons why he played like that in TL mafia L (no further discussion about that game, but he has already flipped in it so that's fine). Of course by the end of n1 I was completely certain that he was scum, so had I reached that level of certainty earlier, I would have been fine with lynching him. I was only "against" lynching RoL on day 2 because when I woke up there was suddenly a new wagon on him, which at the time seemed strange given the events of day 1 and because I thought I had to see risk flip (scum...) to know how to proceed next. I said I found him scummy, but again we can only lynch one a day and the game had 6 scum. If risk and rol had both been scum, as seemed quite possible to me at the time, risk's lynch would have produced much more useful information. Ok, that makes sense, then. It's also funny that you bring up L, but I can't say anything about that right now. If you want to know, feel free to PM me. I think one of Palmar's greatest strengths at town, is that he's very easy to read. That makes it easy for him to lead people, and for people to listen to him, because they think he's a townie. However, that also goes against him when he rolls scum. The case was hard to make, because while I could read Palmar as scum, the hard part is trying to convince all the other people who haven't played with him as much that he was scum. He was pretty obvious though, as both you and I, as well as Jackal, all saw it before the end of day 1. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 22 2012 03:04 Blazinghand wrote: You're leaving out the part where his plan is actually bad for town, and lets the angels win. Yes, people had poorly thought out criticisms of the plan. Yes, RoL defended his plan skillfully. Yes, it's possible he was a terrible townie who wrote a 3,000 word plan without thinking through the consequences of it. But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum. So I tunneled him for a week. EDIT: Look, I had a clear read on RoL. I believed like 99% that he was scum. How, in that circumstance, am I NOT going to push him, and push him hard? On this issue this is all I am going to say. If I tell you that the center of the earth is filled with tiny gnomes who ride bicycles that cause the earth to revolve around the sun, and then at the end of the game I find out that the earth really does revolve around the sun, does my conclusion being correct automatically mean my premise was correct? | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On January 22 2012 02:16 layabout wrote: @ Zephird the post was a monty python reference, risk.nuke, dirkzor and i already went through this here and here after the post that can be found here. If you want to look it up click here. Which leads me to my main problem this game: A large number of people clearly were not reading the thread!. It felt like town players were really not making themselves useful or trying to catch scum. I think that Town should have lost but they got lucky with the actions of power roles.
Hmmm hi WTF is Monty Python, and WTF does it have to do with the Spanish? And WTF did it had to do with the game? These posts were just complete nonsense to me  I admit that I didn't read RoL's plan past "massclaim". I mean, the simple fact of making blues out themselves, on this setup, is ridiculously Angel-favored over Town. Sure it could screw Demons hard, but I don't trust scumhunting skills ESPECIALLY mine. If you notice, most of my sense-making posts are regarding night actions and possibilities, not actual scumhunting. That's because I suck at it. I mean, the only right ones were you, who only lacked a pitchfork and a couple horns to become the Devil himself, and Grackaroni who should've been Angel by elimination. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. I want to also apologize to you LayAbout. When I was defending my plan I remember I reamed one of your posts in a very abrasive way, but I was doing it in an attempt to scare of anyone who would challenge me again. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 22 2012 08:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On this issue this is all I am going to say. If I tell you that the center of the earth is filled with tiny gnomes who ride bicycles that cause the earth to revolve around the sun, and then at the end of the game I find out that the earth really does revolve around the sun, does my conclusion being correct automatically mean my premise was correct? Do you seriously believe lurking for the first 72 hours is town behavior? | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 22 2012 05:21 Mr. Wiggles wrote: The case on RoL (at least in general, I don't particularly remember all the details of BH's PbP) was sound, in my opinion. A lot of town players made bad criticisms of RoL's plan, because they either missed part when reading it, or didn't understand the game set-up. That made it easy for him to defend his plan and make it look good, but really it didn't do much to strengthen the validity of the plan, as the criticisms didn't really point out actual flaws in the plan that needed to be defended against. Again, I want to make a distinction between a plan just being bad, and a plan being anti-town. RoL's plan seemed designed in a way that was meant to hurt the town. Also, for me, his plan was in no way the basis for thinking he was scum. It was just icing on the cake, that he would come back from 4 days of lurking, to push a plan that is not clearly in the best interests of the town. It would have been much better to just scum-hunt at that point, and do something useful, if you were town. This is why I considered RoL's plan bad for town. I didn't feel like going into lots of detail about it during the game, because it was clear it wasn't going to be implemented. It's bad for town, because it relies on the town using their blue roles effectively, versus the angels using their roles effectively. It comes down to power roles, which I personally hate. Now, if you compare them, it's easy to see that there's a much better chance of the angels winning out in that war. Each blue is by himself, and has to think by himself. On the contrary, the angels have the ability to privately coordinate their actions, so it makes it easier for them, and they now have a pool of players in which they can essentially double their KP, or at least make it a lot more effective. So, just in the battle of the roles, it's somewhat in favour of the angels. Next, for the town to win in that situation, it relies on the town having strong scumhunting, and being very accurate with their lynches, because you cannot assume that their investigative and KP roles will survive for long. Looking at day 1, you could see that the town atmosphere had significantly degenerated by the end of the day, and that a majority of people were playing in a way that made them very hard to tell from the actual scum. This means that it's unlikely that town is going to hit all their lynches, and this is actually what happened as the game went on. So, by removing the power roles that the town could use as a sort of crutch, you made it so they could only rely on analysis, which obviously wasn't going to work in this game, unless people made a major change in effort and posting. Thirdly, RoL's plan was bad for town, because of the combination of points one and two. The mafia's KP being able to be used more effectively by being aimed into the blues, means that player numbers will decrease more rapidly, especially if the angels are able to determine the identity of the demon hunter and avoid hitting him. This compounds the need of the town to be able to scumhunt well, because now they're losing players more rapidly than they would otherwise. This point isn't as strong, though, because it relies on the resolution of night actions. So, yes, RoL's plan could have been good for town, but in my eyes, it depended on the town having very good aim with their blues, and having very strong analysis. So, the onus of 'luck' was much more on the town than the angels, and based on how the game was going, it was a decent assumption that town wouldn't be able to play well enough to live in that situation. The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later. This is not the behaviour of a town player. This is the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid having to contribute and who wants to fly under the radar. There's no reason for thinking that he could be a townie, and pushing a plan doesn't make you a townie. RoL had no thread-presence, because he lurked all of day 1. This means that any plan he pushes forward, is instantly going to be harder for him to actually get put into action, and is going to meet a lot more resistance. So, he posts a plan that is not obviously pro-town, and then he doesn't even put much effort into getting it going. If he was a townie posting a plan that he thought was incredibly good for town, like he tried to make out, there's no reason to not push your plan, and no reason to give up on it so easily. This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Overall, that's why he was scum, and that's why he was a good day 2 lynch. Next, I just want to say in general, people need to stop worshiping vets or good players so much. Just because someone played well in one game, doesn't mean they'll play well in the next. Just because someone has a decent reputation as a scumhunter, doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when they're acting scummy. Judge a player by his contributions in the game you're playing, not by his potential. No one should get a free pass on day 1 to act incredibly scummy. I noticed this with Palmar in this game, but also in general, so I've decided to say something. This is all just my opinion, so feel free to disagree. Finally, a decent critique of my plan. That being said and everything being revealed now, obviously I wasn't aiming to completely screw my team over. I am sure I downplayed Angel advantages, and tried to press that it was more pro-town than it actually was. But I still think the town had a good chance with it. I clearly stated that the blue roles this game were weak. Straight up. My plan wasn't about using their powers effectively as it was using their minds effectively. I knew KP would get lost shooting into the blues since it was likely that two purgatories would get thrown their way every cycle. I explained this. I don't feel your criticism of blue effectiveness dealt with this point well enough. The blues can also speak in thread, they don't need to communicate secretly, its just we might know their actions, but if we don't know their roles there isn't much we can do to stop them. The second point, yes it does rely on town scumhunting, but its two fold. You have to focus on scumhunting, but you also remove 4 suspects from the suspect pool and you can read everything they write knowing they have town intentions. The investigative and KP roles weren't that strong and once again, barring incredibly bad luck, you would likely have the blues alive for at least 2-3 day cycles. Town atmosphere was not something I was privy to, seeing how the entire game I never really ever read anything. I was seriously busy and did really have stuff to do. I wasn't feigning inactivity and defending my plan as my only contributions, I just seriously never had time to do much more and I was being attacked on the plan so I had to choose to defend that, or scum hunt, and it seemed more important to defend myself from a bad accusation than produce results. I will concede that my attack back on BH was largely complete bullshit and me twisting thigns, truth be told I skimmed his filter and after reading conclusions to posts I just assumed what he did and made shit up. It was most noticeable when I tried to pretend he was echoing wiggles case on Palmar to avoid accountability. I never actually read his case and was forced to make up more shit to cover that up. But the real kicker for me was never having the time to put up an adequate defense, or be producitve enough to not get killed. For the longest time I wanted to do an analysis on Tyrran, I just never had the time and didn't just want to say "X is suspicious" without reasoning because I would inevitably have to out my team in one way or another if I am just shouting names. L basically did that which cost the scum the win in Responsibility. When you make a list with names and you die it can be easily analyzed. When I was pretty sure I would end up getting killed, my goal was to try to get the Demons to conceal my lynch and then analyze day discussion to see which demons were revealing more information than they should have. Jackal getting lynched was surprising, but our biggest problem this game as the Angel team was not ever communicating. I PMed Grackaroni every couple of days, but nothing was ever detailed. Jackal I hadn't talked to since the first day. http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/FuP7QYYMfy5 This is our QT, I don't think I ever posted in it apart from the first day. I hate QT and Jackal/Grack couldn't get skype. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 22 2012 08:54 Blazinghand wrote: Do you seriously believe lurking for the first 72 hours is town behavior? Regardless of my alignment, that would have happened since I was busy. It means nothing. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 22 2012 09:11 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Regardless of my alignment, that would have happened since I was busy. It means nothing. If you were town, it would have been terrible play! 72 hours of not helping! There's no reason you'd do that as scum. Your posts weren't even trying to help. | ||
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Refallen
452 Posts
My shots were bad. This was the first time I'm playing as any vig role. Is there any tips or rule of thumbs I should know for vig shots? Next, I felt like the demons really outted themselves by continuing to push HoD after he was pretty much nigh confirmed sage. I pointed this out and suddenly Tyrran and layabout (and Zeph and Dirk, wtf?) were on me, which made me think that these 4 were scum. I don't know how Zeph/Dirk thought that HoD was still unconfirmed as the sage. | ||
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