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On July 05 2011 17:13 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 15:52 Eiii wrote:
sandroba wins the 'worst plan' award. Anyone trying to propose we fire the nukes in a controlled, safe manner is either living in a fantasy world, or eager to watch the world burn! As far as I can tell the whole nuke thing is going to be a huge clusterfuck and I don't know if there's really anything that can be done to stop it.
I'm going to go flip through the last WaW game because I have no clue how the nuclear phase works at all from the description given :x ???? My plan is bad because you KNOW it's not gonna work? How exactly? If people fire nukes not following my plan they get lynched, not nuked back.
Alright, so someone decides they're too good for your plan and nukes a guy. Nukes fly everywhere. Now that we have a handful of people who either started firing or fired reactively... gee, that's a lot of lynches to get through. That'd be a lot of wasted time for town, strictly sticking to lynches like that. And if the lynches aren't going to be stuck to in such a way, then where's the discouragement to fire the nuke in the first place once they're already flying?
On July 05 2011 17:13 sandroba wrote:
OK so you are saying nuke is going to be a cluster fuck and nothing can be done. If you are town why don't you conceed already then? Or maybe that's what you want because you are mafia. I agree with you that if we don't actively try to control this shit that's what most likely is going to happen.
Ask yourselves the question: Which is better: a fuckton of dayvigs nuking randomly or 2 neat lynches per day?
I don't think this shit can be actively controlled at all tbh. Honestly I have no clue how this game will go! What I do think is a bad idea is encouraging people to use nukes *at all*, in any general sense. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, since it is potentially a very powerful tool (and I haven't read the last game yet so I don't know how that one went), but I just don't like pushing the killfest forward any.
And that second bit, is that even a question? Of course two neat lynches per day would be idea. My point is, I don't think that's what'll happen in the slightest.
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Time to stop the insanity and explain this.
Nukes are vigi shots.
Vigi shots are a great asset to town because they cannot by influenced by mafia, and it has statistically a tiny bit higher chance of hitting mafia than lynches. Just read RTM mafia to see what independent and good vigi shots can do to a mafia team.
GMs plan is soooo bad, retaliatory nuking is basically stupid. If someone launches a dumb nuke, then the absolutely worst way of tackling the problem is nuking him right back. Unless of course you think that person is scummy, then by all means nuke him.
Sandroba's is slightly less bad, but still wrests control away from townies. I'm a big advocate of the "shoot early, shoot independently, shoot scum and shoot often" vigilante policy. Clearly with the radiation thing this has to be scaled back a little bit, but for the most part, it still applies, just chill a bit and think again before you shoot.
So, without further ado, I introduce an alternative to all the dumb shit that's been going on. I will require every major nation in the world to sign this agreement.
The Palmar Agreement:
1. Article
- Nuke Scum
2. Article
- Don't be an idiot
3. Article
##Vote: GMarshal
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I want everyone to read the plan and provide good reasoning if you disagree. Something like it's gonna lead to disaster because I say so is not a good reason.
If you think this plan does not benefit town make sure to explain why in detail, because all I'm reading is "oh the plan is bad", "it's not going to work", "it's gonna lead to disaster".
@prplhz think of this in terms of balance: There are 30 players with multiple nukes. If just a few nukes per day would trigger conspirator wincon, it would be pretty damn easy for him to win don't you agree. If we leave it to players decision we risk it much more. Think about it.
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@sandroba
I sugest you go read my post before posting nonsense like this. I never suggested that controlling nukes is bad, it would be great if town could fully control all nukes and get pretty much unlimited KP, but this is not going to happen. And I think that the whole idea that maybe it could happen is naïve at best.
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@palmar except that if this game is like the previous both scum and town have nukes. Nukes are not like vig shots because they lead to 3rd party win. Also probably have a fuckton of players with nukes and if every one "tries to hit scum" with it we are screwed.
@Eiiii If this game is like the previous some players have anti-nukes. If any nukes are fired without concesus a town aligned player with anti-nukes shoots it down and we *lynch* the player who used it, not nuke them back. Same goes if the guy who's about to get lynch gets stupid and retaliates. But then again this plan will reduce and even nuliffy retaliation as we can for example say that the first and second player on the player list (that's active at said moment) that *hasn't voted* for the guy has to fire the nuke. Many tweaks can be made, the important part is double lynch and no rogue nukes flying around.
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On July 05 2011 18:52 sandroba wrote:
@palmar except that if this game is like the previous both scum and town have nukes. Nukes are not like vig shots because they lead to 3rd party win. Also probably have a fuckton of players with nukes and if every one "tries to hit scum" with it we are screwed.
That's why I said "just chill a bit" in my text.
yes, scum probably has nukes.
You're working under the misconception that somehow allowing people to vote or agree on a nuke is bending to the town's will, this is incorrect.
The town is, and will always be, controlled by few vocal members that are charismatic and convincing enough to lead the rest along with them on crusades. Vigilante shots (or nukes) provide a great alternative to that. If the town "council" of people who lead the town are missing something or even in worst case being messed with by scum, that's when we really need independent vigilante shots.
Don't try to control town.
Also, if everyone signs my agreement, then there's a clause that says "Don't be an idiot", and thus we will not have stupid or useless nukes.
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[QUOTE]On July 05 2011 18:37 sandroba wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 05 2011 18:18 prplhz wrote:
Mafia has measly 1 kp this game,[/QUOTE]
How do you know Mafia has KP of 1? It wasn't in the OP and it's a closed setup.?
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@Curu Based on last game. I thought I read it in the op, but it says "night kills", so I'm probably wrong. Still all the more incentive to have double lynches every day.
Vigs work well because they are hidden and can claim their shot in thread afterwards to confirm themselves etc (since they are protown in most setups). Nukes are NOTHING like that because they have to be announced in thread, which tends to generate hate and retaliation when the player flips green and turn into a chain reaction of townie deaths. Independant thinking is gonna lead us to disaster, you can mark my words (or read WaW 1). If you want to nuke a player that badly just fucking explain us why and we will vote on it.
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On July 05 2011 19:12 sandroba wrote:
@Curu Based on last game. I thought I read it in the op, but it says "night kills", so I'm probably wrong. Still all the more incentive to have double lynches every day.
Vigs work well because they are hidden and can claim their shot in thread afterwards to confirm themselves etc (since they are protown in most setups). Nukes are NOTHING like that because they have to be announced in thread, which tends to generate hate and retaliation when the player flips green and turn into a chain reaction of townie deaths. Independant thinking is gonna lead us to disaster, you can mark my words (or read WaW 1). If you want to nuke a player that badly just fucking explain us why and we will vote on it.
Whatever.
I'm not gonna shit up the thread by discussing a bad plan, I'm going to rely on people not being dumb as fuck.
But hey, if anyone wants to play your little stifling game, then all the power to you.
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United States4714 Posts
I agree with sandroba's plan. The best thing about sandroba's plan is that it eliminates mafia's kp with their nukes while allowing town to still take advantage of their nuke kp. Anyone who nukes without the town agreeing on it is lynched which prevents mafia from killing someone then being like eh I thought they were scummy. But the town can still vote and use its kp.
Along with that how do we usually get most of our information in mafia games? Lynch results. Sandroba's plan forces everyone to vote twice for every day cycle. This will give us a huge amount of additional information compared to a normal game.
People should get over wanting to be the lone ranger trying to single handedly pick out and eliminate the scum team. Realize we need to work as a team, if you think someone is especially scummy then put the effort in to write up a case and argue against them.
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United States4714 Posts
Palmar your argument is useless and 95% spam. I am sure repeating don't be an idiot 20 times will prevent people from just randomly using their nukes terribly.
We are playing a game where every person is a Vig the town badly needs structure. Everyone trying to play their own game just leads to a blood bath.
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United States4714 Posts
Seriously just imagine a normal game where town was able to lynch twice a day. It would be overwhelmingly town favored. The only real problem I see with sandroba's plan is people just going nuts and nuking everyone if they are voted for. But that same issue is going to come up with regular lynches anyway.
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On July 05 2011 18:44 prplhz wrote:
@sandroba
I sugest you go read my post before posting nonsense like this. I never suggested that controlling nukes is bad, it would be great if town could fully control all nukes and get pretty much unlimited KP, but this is not going to happen. And I think that the whole idea that maybe it could happen is naïve at best.
So you pretty much agree with the plan, you think if we could control it it would be great, but you disagree based on the possibility that others might disagree with it. That's a nice reasoning right there. Of course if every one starts disagreeing based on this no one will ever agree to anything. If you think controling nukes is good go ahead and agree to it and let others decide for themselves. The only way to make it happen is to support it and act on it.
If we get most players to agree to lynching anyone that shoots without concensus and to shoot down any rogue missiles we can enforce this pretty easily.
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If we do go with this system I propose that, once agreed upon, someone completely randomizes the player list.
Mafia have more information than anyone right now so they may agree to follow just because they don't see their own members near the top of the list and want to do so to force out all the nukes of the Town. Letting them see the player list order now and knowing what it implies can only be used to their advantage. Randomize it and introduce some doubt into their decision making.
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@Mig Fortunatelly a player can only fire 1 nuke without being in retaliation. If said player that's being voted nukes we proceed to shoot his nuke down and he gets lynched, not nuked back.
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@Curu That's not needed, since it doesn't matter who gets to use the nukes. Trust me, if we enforce this no one is going to run out of nukes AND mafia will never get to fire a nuke that's not on an agreed upon target. We can lynch 12 players by day6 by using 6-9 nukes. If we get there we can agree on stopping the double lynch depending on the situation.
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United States4714 Posts
So just to repeat the benefits of sandroba's plan
1) Mafia nuke kp is completely eliminated except for trying to influence the vote.
2) We get a massive amount of extra information. We really don't learn much by having 10 different people all trying to snipe the mafia by themselves. This way it forces people to actually argue and discuss who the scum are and with the additional voting we will be able to see more clear patterns and connections between people to find the scum.
3) Mafia wants townies to play by their emotions and to just go nuts and shoot each other anytime there is an argument or kill the first person who accuses them of being scum. This way the town kp is used with structure to eliminate who the town collectively feels is the most scummy player everyday. It forces the town to work together as a team instead of having 30 people all playing by themselves.
And honestly people just imagine any normal game where the town could hold 2 separate lynches a day for every 1 night. It would be incredibly strong for the town. Much much stronger than having a bunch of vigs running around doing whatever they each think is best.
Also as soon as I can I am going to vote palmar. Your reasoning against sandroba's plan is incredibly bad and filled with spam. The plan does not take away control from townies it takes control from the mafia. We severely reduce their kp as long as they aren't completely influencing the votes.
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And what if the owner of those 6-9 nukes are all Town? Then Mafia has drawn out 6-9 of the nukes of Town while keeping all of their own. Maybe Mafia thinks GMarshall or Mataza or JeeJee (first 3 players on the list) are all exceptionally smart players so they wouldn't mind agreeing in order to get them to waste their nukes. It doesn't really change anything but it takes away from the Mafia knowing whether or not Mafia are at the front of the list.
What do you do if many people start claiming they have no nukes? From the first game it appears many of the blue roles had no nukes. You risk outing some power roles and may end up killing them if you are fanatic about lynching those who refuse to aim their nukes where you want/have no nukes left.
Still I like the idea as long as its feasibly enforceable and enough people get on board. If you have too much opposition it's just going to create more chaos.
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United States22154 Posts
I agree with sands plan, as its quite similar to mine, and its stops the random lunacy we are likely to see.
Palmar, go read Bang Bang mafia, and both of callers games where everyone had guns before deciding that "everyone using their discretion is good" townies are by definition stupid and are going to end up shooting each other because "he is scum, my gut says so" followed by "oops he flipped DT, oh well he was being scummy" followed by "oh no, now someone else is nuking me, because I nuked the dt". Towns are stupid, work on that assumption when planning.
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I tentatively agree with sandroba plan. Going to read the previous WaW thread now. Making the scummiest player(s) fire the nuke(s) would also potentially lower scum KP.
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EPT
