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On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote:
I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On September 07 2012 09:10 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote:
I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this.
The answer is probably not to.
Alright, found time to go through your guide in more detail. For a guide that's designed to be brief, I can't find many flaws in it. A lot of the criticism I would level mainly centers around going more indepth about the supports such as your positioning in lane and usage of key skills. But you could write essays upon essays on these topics so yeah lol. If you ever choose to expand upon this guide, it would be really good to talk about the correct usage of Janna Tornado, or the difference between Q and W max in lane on Soraka. They're interesting topics I think people can benefit from reading about.
I'm personally not too sold on a DShield build, primarily because it clogs up valuable inventory slots and doesn't offer a smooth tragectory towards obataining key support items. In some ways, it relies on your opponents not know what it does and being baited in to it. As Day[9] said "A strategy which relies on your opponents being bad rather than you being good is not a reliable strategy." (Or something to that effect). Then again, it does have a soloqueue emphasis so I guess it can work as a janky style Support Build (sort of like how Volibear is a really good janky Support).
I was going to rate it highly, but you don't have enough cute pictures of Leona. Need at least 10 more or something. So 1/10, would not read again. 
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Re: Heart of Gold.
Kindle is a better item if the game isn't going to be passive for another XXX minutes, but if one wants a faster Aegis why not go Ruby + Cloth Armor. I am not going to claim to have done the math, but vs. Physical it should offer just as much if not more survivability vs most jungles and bottom lanes.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 08:00 spellsy wrote:
re: gp10 items vs not, etc.
the thing with this is you should go out and try it, theorycrafting doesnt do it justice.
As the bonus slides doran shield build has been when ive recently been running no gp10 build. While my first item has been usually faster (I'll get 2 doran / aegis or something by ~17 min or something, opposed to normal aegis timing at ~20-23).. BUT, the second item ill get is significantly slower.
That's not possible. In order for your second item to be faster with the gp10 build, your gp10 item has to pay off its value ENTIRELY, which takes 27 minutes. You're not getting gp10s at the start of the game--generally within the range of 10-15 minutes. While your definition of "significant" might vary, you have to be going on something like a 50+ minute game for the gp10 to be getting you items noticeably faster.
On September 07 2012 08:00 spellsy wrote:
Another potential flaw is when lane phase does not go well. If there are mistakes, they are better, or just shit happens (which happens at all levels of play), you fall off much harder than normal gp10 support. It'll be 10-15 min when i finish 2 dorans / armor boots.
It takes 11 minutes for HoG to even break even. By the time the non-gp10 support "falls off" compared to the gp10 support, its long past laning phase. In fact, immediately effective items and faster support items (Aegis, etc.) means a support that had a poor laning phase actually has a better chance with non-gp10s because they can contribute more to teamfights sooner, and make back their bad laning with assist gold/etc.
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On September 07 2012 09:10 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote:
I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this.
I'll give it a go-- I'm a pretty bad support, but I can give a few basic opinions because I'm bored.
Soraka is fine... she gives basically infinite sustain to the adc, which gives them the option of starting Doran's. Against a Soraka lane, you will lose and get pushed out. Raka is weaker than she used to be, but then again she was pretty bullshit before. Lategame Raka (Rabadon/DFG/Aegis/Shurleyas/Boots) is almost a hypercarry IMO.
Blitz is countered hard by many champs, and past a certain elo people will be smart and not get pulled. I'm a huge fan of Blitz, but he's way too binary of a champ. He needs to land pulls and get money, or he's useless.
Leona is pretty good. I don't play her, but she's surprisingly tanky and does a surprising amount of damage, and can be played really offensively as well.
Sona is a kind of a jack-of-all-trades master of none (after her nerf). She's really, really offensive and her ulti is one of the best in the game.
Nunu should be toplane. The only thing he's good for is countering a troll ADC malphite+ Janne lvl 1 first blood combo.
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The thing with GP10 is you buy it not because you need the income early, but because at the 20 min mark there is no income. Most of the time you're in mid lane or at dragon and whenever wraiths come up your mid takes it and whenever a lane has a large wave your top or ADC goes to annihilate it before everyone goes back to standing around poking towers. If tried running support without GP10 items and only GP10 runes, and while I can get assist gold and sneak CS in lane, around 24 mins I go totally broke just trying to buy wards. Sure you have a super early aegis, but then you have no income to get the next item. And at soloq that extra fast aegis aura usually isn't enough to make up for inherent skill differences in deciding teamfights anyways.
So you could buy lane items and then buy the GP10s at like 15 mins but then you might as well just buy them earlier unless you are getting tower dove all day at 11 mins and buying GP10 would just get you killed more (or you are tower diving them at 7 mins and want to buy Triforce on Taric h4h4h4).
Edit: So my personal experience coincides with Spellsy even if it defies math. If you skip GP10 the first item is earlier but the later ones are impossible to buy, because "2 CS every 3 min" is a lot when you get a total of 1 CS every 5 waves sneaking in creeps your mid laner didn't blow up in one spell.
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On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote:
I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
I honestly can't tell if this is flamebait, but I'm going to respond anyways.
Soraka doesn't blow, she just isn't good in agressive lanes. Things like Graves/Taric, Corki/Leona and Ez/Nunu are extremely popular right now, and one of the reasons for this is their agressive abilities. Soraka is the Sit-back-and-farm-to-300cs Support champion. Just a few months ago Graves/Soraka was considered the best botlane in the game because Graves just wouldn't die and could basically freefarm.
Blitz is a 1-trick pony. Either you grab properly and win games or miss/grab tanks and lose horribly. He is too one-dimensional for me to really like him.
Leona isn't a subpar blitz by any comparison, She is a better tank, has more reliable initation and while she can't bring the opponent to her, she is still extremely useful in teamfights with her 1100 RANGE ULT INITATION and good CC/AoE.
Can't really argue on Sona, I don't like playing her.
Nunu is one of the best supports, mostly in the poke section and AD buffing, but if you want extreme burst or initation, Nunu isn't the best choice. Same thing for lane sustain, Nunu doesn't heal/shield the AD, only gives em some aspeed/movespeed. So if you are going for a poke lane (Ez), Nunu is probably one of the best, but otherwise he is outshined by a few others in other lane types.
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what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where.
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On September 07 2012 02:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ):
could you address this sir spellsy
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On September 07 2012 22:15 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ): could you address this sir spellsy
i took the 2 points out of minion defense and put them into that in the 21 def paeg
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United States23745 Posts
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
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On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage.
Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious.
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On September 08 2012 03:06 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage. Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious.
In my opinion, no they aren't worth it. There will always be people who argue that support jayce or kayle or nidalee or rammus are competitively viable. I've never played jayce as a support though and I'm not super high elo.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 08 2012 03:23 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 03:06 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage. Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious. In my opinion, no they aren't worth it. There will always be people who argue that support jayce or kayle or nidalee or rammus are competitively viable. I've never played jayce as a support though and I'm not super high elo.
Yeah, we'll have to see if anyone breaks him out at the Season 2 Championship to see if he's competitively viable (I don't remember who actually ran him in an Asian tournament). That said, you can still get away with a lot of unconventional supports in normals or low-mid elos.
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jayce needs levels really badly. He can get by with less items, and is still very useful even if he gets shit on in lane (which happens very rarely), but he needs to hit double digit levels asap.
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Very nicely put together spreadsheet. I'll have to muck around with the Doran's Shield/HP5 quint setup if given the opportunity.
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Alright I was playing with a smurf and I left lane to go ward and he got mad at me for not warding our bot bush, the lane was reset in mid, is this something I'm supposed to do so he can farm?
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On September 07 2012 21:49 Sermokala wrote:
what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where.
I've been trying it with Taric and Leona (and once I got to do it with Ali!). It's like a free exhaust if the adc attacks you.
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the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
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EPT
