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On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote:
i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point.
What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"?
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On September 06 2012 05:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote:
i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point. What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"?
It probably depends on both the setup of your bot lane and the jungler of your enemy team. You'd probably be more confident in your ability to escape with a Ali or Soraka than with a Blitz.
Though junglers like WW, Shyv, Malph all have a harder time ganking a lane at lvl 2/3 than let's say Lee, Maokai or Alistar.
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Probably junglers with poor gap closers and no cc. Like pre-six ww.
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On September 06 2012 05:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote:
i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point. What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"?
warwick pre6, diana pre6, some others that are based on movespeed (shyv, mundo, udyr, skarner) can be dealt with quite easily with janna, and though i usually don't start with less wards, i could see why it wouldn't be as much of a problem to skimp.
this is strictly bot lane tho, a lot of those guys are a massive pain in the arse top.
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No Yorick support = I am dissapoint.
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no gp or lux support either
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Hey Spellsy, welcome to TL! 
Nice guide. Looks good from what I can see. I'll have a closer read and give some more detailed feedback once I get the TL PAX Review done since that's taking up the majority of my time atm.
Re HoG/Kindlegem: At the risk of bringing up the whole gp10 discussion thing again, HoG really is just bad on Supports now. With the 350g only giving you 20 extra hp, it really is just spending 350g to have it released back yourself over the next ~12 min. As always, money now is more important than money later. Getting a straight up Kindlegem gives +200 hp and +10% CDR which gives you far more lane and teamfight control about about the same cost. Hard to compare.
I also like using a 0/16/14 Mastery build to get defensive stats and CDR along with the extra starting gold to try and get as close to 40% CDR with as few items as possible while still being able to do janky pink ward openings. But personal preference here.
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the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka.
you go for extra start g old on the ms page is because you go boots start as well.
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
sona used to have the best 1-5, back before they nerfed her.. now shes kinda balanced to the point of which she has weaker early lanes, but ramps up hard. (however, i think s he still is kinda a bit op atm.) You can only really be hard aggressive 1-3 when you go heavy armor (21 armor rune page + 21 defense page), something you do like vs blitz.
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Hi Spellsy, when do you think I should be getting my Shurelyas?
Do I hold on to my gp10 for more wards? or do I just get it straight for the initiation and utility?
I'm talking in general on any support nothing in particular.
Thanks!
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Sweet, welcome to TL, enjoy your stay! Hope you post more. I've seen you on other people's streams quite often. Glad to have another high ELO player on TL.
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On September 06 2012 09:37 eParadox wrote:
Hi Spellsy, when do you think I should be getting my Shurelyas?
Do I hold on to my gp10 for more wards? or do I just get it straight for the initiation and utility?
I'm talking in general on any support nothing in particular.
Thanks!
I don't know what spellsy's opinion on this is, but I USUALLY get Shurelia's as my second team item (Aegis or Zekes is typically the first team item.)
I suppose there are times that you really want it earlier for engage/disengage power, like when you're running a poke comp (disengage power) or if your team needs it for engaging (your team wants to pick teamfights, has a stronger teamfight, but wants to buff its initiation. Often true when you have good teamfight abilities on your team that doesn't come packaged with gapclosers or long range, like Galio, Annie, Singed, Skarner, etc)
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Re: masteries, I personally run 8/1/21 on Soraka since none of 1 AP, 1 AD or 10% MPen struck me as being more useful than 2 armor on her. Maybe 8/0/22 could also be worth considering.
But, well, it's one mastery point... lol.
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On September 06 2012 09:57 Zizoz wrote:
Re: masteries, I personally run 8/1/21 on Soraka since none of 1 AP, 1 AD or 10% MPen struck me as being more useful than 2 armor on her. Maybe 8/0/22 could also be worth considering.
But, well, it's one mastery point... lol.
I usually run that on Soraka, start out with that 10% cdr puts you right at cap with boots + shurelias
real good imo
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Any comments on Morganna Support?
Dark Binding Harass/Initiate
Black Shield for anti CC Goodness for your carry
Automatic zoning from 6 forward or forced engage with Morg ult.
I found it to be a key part of a bottom lane with Twitch before Rework
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But fiddles and yorick are good sup...
leona!
Also volibear bot support... man f that guy. The lane pushes for whatever reason and your flash is down. Your ADC has an escape. Guess who's getting flipped backwards?! Boots 5 first item vs bear?
Powerpoint doesn't load last few pages for me.
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On September 06 2012 12:09 obesechicken13 wrote:But fiddles and yorick are good sup... Also volibear bot support... man f that guy. The lane pushes for whatever reason and your flash is down. Your ADC has an escape. Guess who's getting flipped backwards?! Boots 5 first item vs bear? Powerpoint doesn't load last few pages for me.
Eh, Maokai and Nautilus are trying to do the same thing when supporting as Leona (gapclose, CC, tanky, pretty high damage in lane for bursting someone down) but Leona brings that kit in a better form for duo laning.
Fiddlesticks is bringing a boss CC, but as a ranged support, and he's not looking to tank too much (though i guess he can eat harass and drain it off, he can still get bursted.) so it's not like "but leona" applies to him. He's kinda taric-ish i guess - point and click ranged CC allows hard engages without necessarily committing.
Yorick is trying to harass/poke people down while sluffing off harass himself, so I'd think "But Sona" instead to counter him in the support role. (Obviously the ult is special, but it's not like Sona ult isn't also bringing a lot to teamfights.)
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Nautilus is arguably better than Leona if your AD is brain dead and doesn't realize Leona's passive is $bigdamage because Naut has a safer engage, point-click ult, and brings up to 3 stuns when you're getting ganked as opposed to just one.
Volibear is like a worse version of Blitzcrank for when they don't know how to kite.
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this is amazing! thank you so much.
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the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc
is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups.
the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out.
edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN  . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please.
edit2: i like this place btw :D fun actual thought provoking things. ty all.
sry for the imformal post tho its 3:30 am .. TL seems kinda formal. balls
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On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please.
i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first:
a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that?
from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles.
the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better.
all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided.
you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well?
Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items.
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EPT
