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On September 06 2012 08:38 spellsy wrote:
the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka.
you go for extra start g old on the ms page is because you go boots start as well.
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
sona used to have the best 1-5, back before they nerfed her.. now shes kinda balanced to the point of which she has weaker early lanes, but ramps up hard. (however, i think s he still is kinda a bit op atm.) You can only really be hard aggressive 1-3 when you go heavy armor (21 armor rune page + 21 defense page), something you do like vs blitz.
Don't you think boots+2 wards allow for the enemies to trade way more agressively? I mean, you can't be allowed to take any hits vs a duo with health pots, because they can sustain themselves back up and you can't.
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Welcome to tl, glad to see you here. This looks good, and off topic i like your stream.
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the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka.
Yes and for Soraka 3 ad > 3 ap (and in my opinion it would be better to skill 8/1/21 anyway to get the 2 extra armor in defense if you dont want the spellpen which is obviously useless for soraka)
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
I do not agree that you should go boots 2 wards everygame really depends what you want if you want for example lvl 1 ward top/wraith to prevent agressive junglers or you want early lanewards against really agressive botlanes. Boots 2 wards are good but there are games where you need more then 2 wards early and then you are in trouble.
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On September 06 2012 13:01 xes wrote:
Nautilus is arguably better than Leona if your AD is brain dead and doesn't realize Leona's passive is $bigdamage because Naut has a safer engage, point-click ult, and brings up to 3 stuns when you're getting ganked as opposed to just one.
Volibear is like a worse version of Blitzcrank for when they don't know how to kite.
I think soraka has a harder time vs voli simply because she has no cc that can slow you.
On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:
sry for the imformal post tho its 3:30 am .. TL seems kinda formal. balls
It's better than official LoL forums.
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I know my skills in the support roles are probably less than yours (I've maxed just under 1500 elo, you are over 2k), but I have tried a few things that aren't really "standard" or really considered on my main supports (Taric, Leona and Janna).
On taric, I actually run Mpen reds and armour seals rather than armour reds and gp10 seals (Once I save the IP, imma buy some GP10 quints) so when I go in for the ERW combo, it does even more damage and bursts even harder when paired with someone like graves/vayne/Corki. I would even consider health or health/lvl seals on him since he gets a significant amount of armour from shatter.
For Leona, I focus more on the health runes over the resitances considering the free stats from her Eclipse. I've actually started building high HP items (Giants belt, upgrading it if the game goes past 50 mins) since I usually don't have any problems with having low resistances.
In the case of Janna, I sometimes build boots of mobilities rather than CDR/Sorcs/Mercs so I can roam around and help mid/jungle as well as my lane partner. Of course I don't build these when the opponents have a CC support (Alo/leona/taric), but against Sona/Soraka and to some extent Lulu, I made great use of the extra mobility.
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I saw your post on reddit with your powerpoint! That really helped me alot. :-)
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^I thought someone else made the reddit post on supports. Maybe two top supports made powerpoints.
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On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN  . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items.
Games aren't typically decided at 16-17 minutes. If your team gets so thoroughly crushed that you're going to surrender at 20 your decision to use gp10 runes is probably a raindrop in the ocean.
Keep in mind that items are more valuable than raw stats. 20 AP from Runes/Masteries is not as valuable as an Amplifying Tome because the Tome actually builds into useful items. This makes gp10 runes incredibly useful because you're effectively gaining the same stats you would have had, only in a form that can be built into something greater.
Items are a different story. I stopped building more than one gp10 most of the time, jungler or support, even before they nerfed them. It's not worth trading away that much early/mid-game power.
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On September 07 2012 00:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items. Games aren't typically decided at 16-17 minutes. If your team gets so thoroughly crushed that you're going to surrender at 20 your decision to use gp10 runes is probably a raindrop in the ocean. Keep in mind that items are more valuable than raw stats. 20 AP from Runes/Masteries is not as valuable as an Amplifying Tome because the Tome actually builds into useful items. This makes gp10 runes incredibly useful because you're effectively gaining the same stats you would have had, only in a form that can be built into something greater. Items are a different story. I stopped building more than one gp10 most of the time, jungler or support, even before they nerfed them. It's not worth trading away that much early/mid-game power.
Why wouldn't you get HoG and Philo? HoG gives you tankiness as well as gp10 which is fantastic for any support/support jungler and philo builds into shurelya's which is basically a staple for supports.
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On September 07 2012 00:23 ibreakurface wrote:
Why wouldn't you get HoG and Philo? HoG gives you tankiness as well as gp10 which is fantastic for any support/support jungler and philo builds into shurelya's which is basically a staple for supports.
As mentioned before:
On September 06 2012 07:04 MoonBear wrote:
Re HoG/Kindlegem: At the risk of bringing up the whole gp10 discussion thing again, HoG really is just bad on Supports now. With the 350g only giving you 20 extra hp, it really is just spending 350g to have it released back yourself over the next ~12 min. As always, money now is more important than money later. Getting a straight up Kindlegem gives +200 hp and +10% CDR which gives you far more lane and teamfight control about about the same cost. Hard to compare.
Philo is still a good buy since it's 110% efficient in terms of the stats it gives you while offering a clean itemisation path into Shuerelya's. HoG is only ~50% efficient in terms of stats and is a horrible upgrade while not providing a clear itemisation path which makes it a wasted slot. The 350g you're spending on HoG means a delayed Aegis, Shurelya or Zeke while you're not really getting much benefit out of it compared to a base Ruby Crystal that builds into all of those three items (and you have to rebuy the Ruby Crystal again too). Pre-nerf HoG may have been good enough to justify itself but not any more.
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i rarely have games that are decided by 16/17 minutes.
gold/10 is a good investment if you have no plans on fighting with your opponent toe-to-toe in a straight-up engagement, this goes for both runes/masteries and g/10 items. That makes it really good on pokey types of champions, or in lanes where there is a ton of passive farming (which, admittedly, can be kinda hard to judge for bot lane in champ select sometimes). Philo is, I think, the only real exception to this philosophy (huehuheu), because A) afaik the stats are pretty cost-efficient, and B) reverie is an amazing item. On a support like leona, for example, i would not get gold runes/masteries (unless there was some setup i wanted where i wanted the bonus starting gold), because her design is such that you want to be hard engaging on bot any time you get a good opportunity.
edit: and ya, i agree with moonbear, hog is just a shit item now. At this point, I only get it on junglers/top laners that are going to be getting omen soonish.
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GP10s of any kind come down to risk benefit analysis. If there's a risk that they won't be useful then you don't get them. If the risk is small and benefit is big then get them.
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i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ):
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Philo is, I think, the only real exception to this philosophy
THe problem with philo stone is: yes it might be the most cost effective g/10 item but what do you do with insanly cost effective hp/5 when you just get oneshotted. I guess the Dorans Shield and/or Kindlegem first might be the best new build and just get the philo stone later for the early shurelia
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I still like getting HoG first when I can because you need GP10 income and you need HP. Even though HoG is inferior to Philo in stat/gold, it gives you the GP10 you need and the stat you really need. But Philo builds into Reverie so you have to buy it anyways and then you end up with 2 GP10. To be more gold efficient, I guess you could buy a ruby crystal and boots instead, but then you have no GP10.
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On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items.
In the games ive not used my GP5 runes, ive noticed a pretty big difference in how much gold i'll have, with the mastery and all that aswell. The only ones i dont run GP5 on are Cow/Blitz, (favoring armor/movespeed) but i still run GP/5 on them most of the time
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On September 07 2012 02:43 Ente wrote:THe problem with philo stone is: yes it might be the most cost effective g/10 item but what do you do with insanly cost effective hp/5 when you just get oneshotted. I guess the Dorans Shield and/or Kindlegem first might be the best new build and just get the philo stone later for the early shurelia
Hp5 obviously doesn't help you if you get gibbed, but it has immense value if you're taking hits/blocking skillshots for your carry or being aggressive. Unless you're playing extremely passively in lane, and even then, you're going to take some damage. If you're getting gibbed around the time you finish Philosopher's Stone it's probably because of misplay rather than because of item choice.
That's not to say skipping Philo is wrong, just that there is significant value to Hp5 during laning.
In a sense this all goes back to the bygone days when everyone ran Flat Health Quints. It was argued that 97 extra health was super strong for laning, up until people figured out that Hp5 Quints regenerated that much health every minute. Having full health for every trade or gank was simply stronger than entering the lane with 97 health that only lasted as long as the first trade.
On September 07 2012 02:53 xes wrote:
I still like getting HoG first when I can because you need GP10 income and you need HP. Even though HoG is inferior to Philo in stat/gold, it gives you the GP10 you need and the stat you really need. But Philo builds into Reverie so you have to buy it anyways and then you end up with 2 GP10. To be more gold efficient, I guess you could buy a ruby crystal and boots instead, but then you have no GP10.
You don't really need the gp10 income. It's really nice to have gp10, but it's really not something you should go out of your way for like that. If you really feel you need health early (which is strange to me, but I digress) you can grab a Ruby Crystal and then build Philo. You're putting yourself behind 350g by building the Ruby Crystal into HoG as well as distancing yourself from Kindlegem/Aegis.
In general gp10 is way overvalued. Picking up 2 CS every 3 minutes is equivalent to a single gp10 item.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:
a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that?
While I disagree with buying gp10 items, I would point out that assigning quint slots a value of 100 gold is over-valuing them, given how most of the other practical quint choices for supports do not hit that value.
I think gp10 quints/masteries are ok given that a) you start benefiting from them immediately, and they pay off earlier, and b) the tradeoffs aren't as steep as for gp10 items. Gp10 items are totally unnecessary, and, as others have said, the value of the gp10 on them is heavily over-valued given their inherent cost-inefficiency.
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re: gp10 items vs not, etc.
the thing with this is you should go out and try it, theorycrafting doesnt do it justice.
As the bonus slides doran shield build has been when ive recently been running no gp10 build. While my first item has been usually faster (I'll get 2 doran / aegis or something by ~17 min or something, opposed to normal aegis timing at ~20-23).. BUT, the second item ill get is significantly slower.
Another potential flaw is when lane phase does not go well. If there are mistakes, they are better, or just shit happens (which happens at all levels of play), you fall off much harder than normal gp10 support. It'll be 10-15 min when i finish 2 dorans / armor boots.
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I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
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EPT
