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On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote:
the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
I think with a naturally tanky support champ that you would be okay. You might take a bit of a skillshot/aoe and poke, but you should be more than able to get out safely and then just regen away. I think in what I call YOLO terms, so its a bit binary-- either you take a little trade and will regen away, or all the hp in the world won't save you and you're screwed anyways.
Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you. Let's say you have 1k hp at... some level. I think Taric at lvl 7 is 1k hp. At that point, you would need 500 hp to equal the 50 armor. A ruby crystal is 475 and gives 180 hp (2.6 gp/hp). That's 1300 gold for 500 hp. Including the regen and passive, I think an argument could be made to its usefulness.
Course its theorycrafting for the most part-- my ~10 games of normals/ 1300 elo is not a big enough sample.
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For the Wardens mail when you played AD carry once you will realize that his is basically the worst item in the game to face (the upgrade Randuins has exactly the same pssive which is the huge thing).
I actually never tried/saw that on supports early on but im quite sure that this is a really good item in certain situations/with certain champs. When you are quite rich as the support (sometimes it happens  ) and when you play supports which are in the enemy face like Taric leona Blitz etc I think its more then sth to think about.
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On September 11 2012 09:05 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote:
the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something. Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you.
this isnt how armor works 
Damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor ≥ 0
ehhh i think? idk maybe it does work like that
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Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1500 damage to kill him.
on target two, you need 2000 damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see.
edit:: I"m dumb, fixed numbers
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I really liked this powerpoint, and I've managed to branch out a bit and play more than two supports. I did run into a major problem though.
There are times when I don't know the support for the job. Today, I had a Taric (me)/Cait vs Graves/Sona. I thought this was a good idea because we should have been able to put great pressure on them while staying safe from the burst. It did not work out that way, and I felt like we couldn't be agressive enough to take advantage of Cait's laning. Who would have been a good support for Cait?
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On September 12 2012 07:44 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 09:05 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote:
the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something. Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you. this isnt how armor works Damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor ≥ 0 ehhh i think? idk maybe it does work like that
It does actually work out like that. Ex. 100 armor: 100/(100+100) = 0.5 reduction, or rather you need to take double damage to die (or as I say, 200% extra damage). It's just an easier way to think of it rather than thinking in a bunch of complicated percents and stuff. The wiki calls it "effective health".
On September 12 2012 07:47 Lmui wrote:
Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1,333 damage to kill him.
on target two, you need 2k damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see.
1500 damage for the 50 armor, but yeah.
100/150 = 2/3 reduction. Reciprocal is3/2, so 3/2 *1000 = 1500.
(I Asian, I r pro maths lulz)
On September 12 2012 08:28 Dark_Chill wrote:
I really liked this powerpoint, and I've managed to branch out a bit and play more than two supports. I did run into a major problem though.
There are times when I don't know the support for the job. Today, I had a Taric (me)/Cait vs Graves/Sona. I thought this was a good idea because we should have been able to put great pressure on them while staying safe from the burst. It did not work out that way, and I felt like we couldn't be agressive enough to take advantage of Cait's laning. Who would have been a good support for Cait?
Graves is just really strong and bursty. Sona is the most offensive support as well with her Q harass. Taric is generally a very offensive support, but Sona's ranged magic harass kind of counters that. I usually do raka with a Cait adc, though sometimes I play around with Teemo. All dem traps real terror. Cait is really strong early but she falls off later, so you want some way to build a big advantage early on.
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On September 11 2012 08:07 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 21:49 Sermokala wrote:
what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where. I've been trying it with Taric and Leona (and once I got to do it with Ali!). It's like a free exhaust if the adc attacks you.
Yeah and in the mid game it hits the non ap carrys dps like a truck while you tank a ton as well as being frankly insanely cheap item for what it does.
I've gone for double nmm after getting the mail with boots and then a kindelgem. then it gets a bit situation. I've been getting mana pots a lot when I've got wards and some extra money when a philo just doesn't seem worth it. I remember when people got like 7 extra health pots when they were op but I'm doing the same thing with mana pots and its really paying off instead of getting a mana item for a support.
I'm not speaking from a real position of authority but thats just what I've been feeling and seeing out there.
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On September 12 2012 07:47 Lmui wrote:
Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1,333 damage to kill him.
on target two, you need 2k damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see.
What the Asian said. It's 50% more than your base so it's still not considered a diminishing return.
target 1 1500 damage needed
target 2 2000 damage needed
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What do you guys think of Gangplank as support? I recently read the approved support GP guide on solomid and I've tried it in 5 games so far (1 ranked) and pretty much crushed every lane I've played against(hardest was caitlyn + garen in a normal game), raise morale is a superb steroid and parrrley is pretty much the most annoying poke in the game, also global ult can really seal ganks and gain you nice assist gold.
Gangplank has more troubles against supports that have sustain, but I've shutdown especially blitzcranks pretty hard.
Also tried doran's shield on him and really like it, makes him so tanky on lane.
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GP support was pretty good when he still had decent scaling on his E, but nowadays i'd rather put him top and farm up and be more useful than having a gimped bruiser. While he does provide utility he severely lacks peeling/cc. He scales pretty darn well if farmed up and built properly, but forcing him into a low-econ situation where he'll only be sitting on reverie/aegis/zekes/locket makes him inferior compared to other supports.
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GP support seems like basically a worse Nunu support. Also has problems edging out Sona's huge... lane presence, since he overlaps significantly onto her roles in lane as well.
GP Q ~ Nunu E (short CD ranged harass) but nunu E is better because of MS/AS slow. GP can afford (mana) more harass, but it's short enough range that you have to be careful executing it or you get punished. You might be having a good time with GP support at lower Elo because people aren't punishing you for harassing with Q. If you're picking a support to harass your opponent out of lane, sona is better anyway.
GP E ~ Nunu W (MS+Power buff for me and my friend) - nunu W has 100% uptime, making it much better for laning. The passive part of your E isn't as powerful when you're the support instead of the focus of the lane.
Those two skills are the core of what makes GP support work, and Nunu does them better. Not seeing how GP is going to edge out Nunu in supporting.
So what's left? W - CC removal (less useful on a support than others, since you aren't as big a focus. People will just ignore you anyway.) R - AOE slow - something other supports have - but global offensive presence (the only thing to make GP support stand out)
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On September 15 2012 02:27 sylverfyre wrote:
GP support seems like basically a worse Nunu support. Also has problems edging out Sona's huge... lane presence, since he overlaps significantly onto her roles in lane as well.
GP Q ~ Nunu E (short CD ranged harass) but nunu E is better because of MS/AS slow. GP can afford (mana) more harass, but it's short enough range that you have to be careful executing it or you get punished. You might be having a good time with GP support at lower Elo because people aren't punishing you for harassing with Q. If you're picking a support to harass your opponent out of lane, sona is better anyway.
GP E ~ Nunu W (MS+Power buff for me and my friend) - nunu W has 100% uptime, making it much better for laning. The passive part of your E isn't as powerful when you're the support instead of the focus of the lane.
Those two skills are the core of what makes GP support work, and Nunu does them better. Not seeing how GP is going to edge out Nunu in supporting.
So what's left? W - CC removal (less useful on a support than others, since you aren't as big a focus. People will just ignore you anyway.) R - AOE slow - something other supports have - but global offensive presence (the only thing to make GP support stand out)
oh! true.
ive played vs a few gp supports, toopro4u plays him alot but i havnt really played with him much in last few months, and while ive seen him be successful in lane i think once or twice, it does not feel that desirable.
the thing with these off-supports is it is more people looking for gimmick cause they are too bored with "normal", even though this gimmick is not just worse viability wise, but more boring gameplay wise.
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Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support".
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On September 16 2012 02:20 Dark_Chill wrote:
Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support".
thats what i tried to do with this guide, you look at pros and cons and you analyze the rest of your team then pick the one which suits your teams strengths or mitigates teams weaknesses and such.
maybe i was unsuccessful in that aspect tho
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On September 16 2012 02:57 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 02:20 Dark_Chill wrote:
Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support". thats what i tried to do with this guide, you look at pros and cons and you analyze the rest of your team then pick the one which suits your teams strengths or mitigates teams weaknesses and such. maybe i was unsuccessful in that aspect tho
I understood that much, but helpful summaries which sort of give a a general idea of what you want can be really useful, as I'm unsure on certain champs. Like Leona, I can look at the description, and get an idea of what I want to do with her. High damage and cc, short tankiness, goes all in. Okay, I know that I want her in a burst lane, wanting to get kills early and go off of that. Problems come when I look at say, Blitz. High damage and cc, low tankiness for melee, etc. I see overlap in both champions, and then I can get confused on when to pick one over the other.
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i just bought da leona
how to play her yo?
6.3k support has to be good right? lulu is op so...
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On September 16 2012 07:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
i just bought da leona
how to play her yo?
6.3k support has to be good right? lulu is op so...
hit e i think, stun then collect a win.
So that powerpoint on supports, made me think, Double dorans shield -> philo(or other way around mroe likely) could prob be the new alternative to HoG? (i know i still get HoG and advocate its not that bad but he gave some hella good logic) you get 240 hp a bunch of hp/5 and armor, for almost the same price. Doesn't seem too shabby imo.
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Really good guide, thanks for making it
I'll definitely be using this the next time I have to play support lol...
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On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote:
the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
Have you tried the mail rush built yet?
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i much prefered going doran shields, or just going heart of gold into like aegis or spirit visage .. see my recent tankraka games !
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EPT
