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Hi, for those who may not know me (this is my first post to TL O.o. So, also sorry if the format is wrong..) I am Spellsy a high elo NA support player. I got to about 2650, top 10, etc all from solely support. But, the thing that I hold of biggest value is that I've essentially been top 200 for last ~6 months playing like dozens of games a week.
ANYWAY, I recently made a powerpoint which simply sums up in brief all of my opinions on different supports, their pros and cons and general "how to play". While this is not just a resource for like "I just picked Lulu, WHAT DO I DO!", as there are detailed lulu specific guides which should be better for that, but rather this is a guide which you should look at all them as a whole and come out better handled to pick the best support for the situation!
The link is here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/pub?id=1dL_rTPsOQz8VRcbBhe5SfaWDVDNPNzwk_CD1V-2jfE4#slide=id.p13
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What brought you here?
EDIT2: nvm I was blind, sry
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hi spellsy, welcome to TL, hope you enjoy your stay!
I'm taking a look at your ppt right now, and I'll let you know what I think about it shortly (i play a decent amount of support, tho i'm def not 2k+ XD).
At the moment, we do have a support thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352516
so i'd recommend you post in there adding the link there, and maybe contributing to discussion there as well.
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On September 06 2012 02:27 Sufficiency wrote: What brought you here?
its one of the few LoL forum settings with more than 3 people :<. I like forums.
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Nice summary. Thanks!
Any thoughts in the Fiddle support Curse has been running to good effect? I tried it once but got rolled SUPER hard. :-)
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Wow that Doran Shield build lol, incoming fotw.
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Hi spellsy, welcome to tl! I saw your slideson Reddit a while back, I'll add your slides and update op based on your thoughts to the op of our support thread when I get off class and off my phone.
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Neat! Welcome to TL.
I am intrigued by the Doran's Shield idea. With how shitty HoG has gotten, it makes Doran's stat efficiency so appealing.
Edit: Did you do the Leona art? Or a friend of yours? It's pretty neat. Edit2: derp, there's a 'credits' slide.
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On September 06 2012 02:27 Sufficiency wrote: EDIT2: nvm I was blind, sry I liked your first edit, i wanted to talk about it >_<
well ill do so anyway.. HA!
the reason why i dont list alistar/leona/blitz really is because simply when i tried the doran shield build on them it wasnt that effective in personal experience. I never really theorycrafted WHY, but i just felt it was less successful.
reflecting on it now, i think its becuase the doran shields dont let them do something that hog or normal build wouldnt already let them do. they are focused around being able to burst or having one combo or w/e (blitz hook, leona e->q, ali w->q). Dorans doesnt improve this, doran really helps with chasing people down and just simply autoing people.
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Nice guide, have you ever used a 1/17/12 mastery set up? I like starting with boots ward 1 pot, and 2 points in the bonus gold seems like wasted points to me in the 1/15/14. Maybe something like 1/16/13 with siege commander and starting boots ward 2 pots is a good medium.
Edit: the only opening I think of that uses the 2 points in the bonus gold well are 4 wards charm and pot or if you were on purple team, you could potentially start 6 wards, ward their wraiths and top back at 130 buy a second pot and still dps the golem.
Edit2: actually I don't think you can make it back to golem fast enough with out boots.
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On September 06 2012 02:37 Sabin010 wrote: Nice guide, have you ever used a 1/17/12 mastery set up? I like starting with boots ward 1 pot, and 2 points in the bonus gold seems like wasted points to me in the 1/15/14. Maybe something like 1/16/13 with siege commander and starting boots ward 2 pots is a good medium.
It was a really nice read. I wish there were also skill orders though.
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first thoughts: Very cool ppt, I like and agree with a lot of the things you say. Also, really nice to see that a high-elo player doesn't think that all supports have to do gold generation based builds 24/7. I will def be trying out your double-dshield build on a few champs, I'm already having some interesting ideas (primarily soraka starcall-based mpen/tanky builds).
I'm interested in your choice of mana regen/lvl blues on a few champs, seems a bit unusual. In general, I thought the mathcrafting largely says that mana regen/lvl blues have really low gold value compared to other rune choices. Also, i find it unusual that you would need them on janna, as I find her to be one of the least mana-intensive supports out there, although I did have a discussion with smash at one point about this, and I think it has a lot to do with tornado usage (he uses a lot of tornado's offensively, while i used them defensively).
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On September 06 2012 02:57 barbsq wrote: first thoughts: Very cool ppt, I like and agree with a lot of the things you say. Also, really nice to see that a high-elo player doesn't think that all supports have to do gold generation based builds 24/7. I will def be trying out your double-dshield build on a few champs, I'm already having some interesting ideas (primarily soraka starcall-based mpen/tanky builds).
I'm interested in your choice of mana regen/lvl blues on a few champs, seems a bit unusual. In general, I thought the mathcrafting largely says that mana regen/lvl blues have really low gold value compared to other rune choices. Also, i find it unusual that you would need them on janna, as I find her to be one of the least mana-intensive supports out there, although I did have a discussion with smash at one point about this, and I think it has a lot to do with tornado usage (he uses a lot of tornado's offensively, while i used them defensively).
Janna does run out of mana; she runs out of mana slower than Sona/Lulu, but her shield still costs a lot and she quickly runs out of steam if she also has to use Q/W.
The only support with "infinite mana" is Soraka. I really think her E should have mana cost if used offensively. She is so brain-dead as a support right now.
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Good read, thanks for putting that together :D
My room-mate plays a god-awful Meowkai support, I'll have to show him the 'just play Leona' slide ^^
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On going 9 offense, what is the reason to go the 4th point in AP instead of magicpen?
Not that magic pen is all that great on supports, but it's better than 1 AP, imo.
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Why would you go for 2 in wealth when you can get boots+1 ward+2 pots with only 1 point (using all of your start gold)?
Do you value experience more than mp5?
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On September 06 2012 03:53 Sponkz wrote: Why would you go for 2 in wealth when you can get boots+1 ward+2 pots with only 1 point (using all of your start gold)?
Do you value experience more than mp5? The only thing I can think of is 2 points lets you start charm 4 wards?
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A few things: If you go 9 in offense ALWAYS get 3 ad instead of the ap its just straight up better(pretty much any ap gets ad instead of that aswell and they have better scalings/less autoattack harrass) if you are a ranged support taric might be another storry. The Sona part is not too great you are obviously correct that shes really squishy but to say that she doesnt have a strong lvl 1-3 is just not correct she has one of the strongest lvl 1-5 just because of her insane damage.
Btw I like that other people are thinking about Dorans shields aswell had a discussion with a support a few days ago and we agreed that Dorans shields are awesome items on supports What I think is a bit confusing/missing are the general item build starts You cannot always start boots sometimes you just need more wards then 2. And there are several options: a combination of wards green and purple wards (yes no real item), Faerie charm and a combination of green/purple wards and pots.
And if you do not go Dorans shield build you should maybe mention (or I dont know how you handle it) that you generally should rush HoG not Philo just for the HP else you will die really really fast to the burst combos right now.
Overall its a usefull overview over the supports (for my taste not enough blitzcrank hate but im a bit special there, that robot is so insanly useless its crazy ^.^)
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i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point.
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hm true kindlegem might be better didnt really consider that and pretty much just "brainless" -> you need g/10 but that era might be over soon
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On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote: i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point.
What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"?
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On September 06 2012 05:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote: i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point. What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"?
It probably depends on both the setup of your bot lane and the jungler of your enemy team. You'd probably be more confident in your ability to escape with a Ali or Soraka than with a Blitz.
Though junglers like WW, Shyv, Malph all have a harder time ganking a lane at lvl 2/3 than let's say Lee, Maokai or Alistar.
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Probably junglers with poor gap closers and no cc. Like pre-six ww.
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On September 06 2012 05:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:09 barbsq wrote: i think against low gank-threat junglers you can easily skimp on wards and do a 1 or 2 ward opening, so it would vary from game to game.
agreed on the masteries thing, 4 ap is a lot less useful in nearly every situation compared to 3 AD.
re:going hog, i'd say that you're better off getting a kindlegem, just because it is straight up a better item at this point. What is your definition of a "low gank-threat jungler"? warwick pre6, diana pre6, some others that are based on movespeed (shyv, mundo, udyr, skarner) can be dealt with quite easily with janna, and though i usually don't start with less wards, i could see why it wouldn't be as much of a problem to skimp.
this is strictly bot lane tho, a lot of those guys are a massive pain in the arse top.
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No Yorick support = I am dissapoint.
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no gp or lux support either
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Hey Spellsy, welcome to TL!
Nice guide. Looks good from what I can see. I'll have a closer read and give some more detailed feedback once I get the TL PAX Review done since that's taking up the majority of my time atm.
Re HoG/Kindlegem: At the risk of bringing up the whole gp10 discussion thing again, HoG really is just bad on Supports now. With the 350g only giving you 20 extra hp, it really is just spending 350g to have it released back yourself over the next ~12 min. As always, money now is more important than money later. Getting a straight up Kindlegem gives +200 hp and +10% CDR which gives you far more lane and teamfight control about about the same cost. Hard to compare.
I also like using a 0/16/14 Mastery build to get defensive stats and CDR along with the extra starting gold to try and get as close to 40% CDR with as few items as possible while still being able to do janky pink ward openings. But personal preference here.
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the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka.
you go for extra start g old on the ms page is because you go boots start as well.
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
sona used to have the best 1-5, back before they nerfed her.. now shes kinda balanced to the point of which she has weaker early lanes, but ramps up hard. (however, i think s he still is kinda a bit op atm.) You can only really be hard aggressive 1-3 when you go heavy armor (21 armor rune page + 21 defense page), something you do like vs blitz.
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Hi Spellsy, when do you think I should be getting my Shurelyas?
Do I hold on to my gp10 for more wards? or do I just get it straight for the initiation and utility?
I'm talking in general on any support nothing in particular. Thanks!
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Sweet, welcome to TL, enjoy your stay! Hope you post more. I've seen you on other people's streams quite often. Glad to have another high ELO player on TL.
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On September 06 2012 09:37 eParadox wrote: Hi Spellsy, when do you think I should be getting my Shurelyas?
Do I hold on to my gp10 for more wards? or do I just get it straight for the initiation and utility?
I'm talking in general on any support nothing in particular. Thanks!
I don't know what spellsy's opinion on this is, but I USUALLY get Shurelia's as my second team item (Aegis or Zekes is typically the first team item.)
I suppose there are times that you really want it earlier for engage/disengage power, like when you're running a poke comp (disengage power) or if your team needs it for engaging (your team wants to pick teamfights, has a stronger teamfight, but wants to buff its initiation. Often true when you have good teamfight abilities on your team that doesn't come packaged with gapclosers or long range, like Galio, Annie, Singed, Skarner, etc)
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Re: masteries, I personally run 8/1/21 on Soraka since none of 1 AP, 1 AD or 10% MPen struck me as being more useful than 2 armor on her. Maybe 8/0/22 could also be worth considering.
But, well, it's one mastery point... lol.
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On September 06 2012 09:57 Zizoz wrote: Re: masteries, I personally run 8/1/21 on Soraka since none of 1 AP, 1 AD or 10% MPen struck me as being more useful than 2 armor on her. Maybe 8/0/22 could also be worth considering.
But, well, it's one mastery point... lol. I usually run that on Soraka, start out with that 10% cdr puts you right at cap with boots + shurelias real good imo
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Any comments on Morganna Support?
Dark Binding Harass/Initiate Black Shield for anti CC Goodness for your carry Automatic zoning from 6 forward or forced engage with Morg ult.
I found it to be a key part of a bottom lane with Twitch before Rework
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But fiddles and yorick are good sup...
leona!
Also volibear bot support... man f that guy. The lane pushes for whatever reason and your flash is down. Your ADC has an escape. Guess who's getting flipped backwards?! Boots 5 first item vs bear?
Powerpoint doesn't load last few pages for me.
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On September 06 2012 12:09 obesechicken13 wrote:But fiddles and yorick are good sup... Also volibear bot support... man f that guy. The lane pushes for whatever reason and your flash is down. Your ADC has an escape. Guess who's getting flipped backwards?! Boots 5 first item vs bear? Powerpoint doesn't load last few pages for me. Eh, Maokai and Nautilus are trying to do the same thing when supporting as Leona (gapclose, CC, tanky, pretty high damage in lane for bursting someone down) but Leona brings that kit in a better form for duo laning.
Fiddlesticks is bringing a boss CC, but as a ranged support, and he's not looking to tank too much (though i guess he can eat harass and drain it off, he can still get bursted.) so it's not like "but leona" applies to him. He's kinda taric-ish i guess - point and click ranged CC allows hard engages without necessarily committing.
Yorick is trying to harass/poke people down while sluffing off harass himself, so I'd think "But Sona" instead to counter him in the support role. (Obviously the ult is special, but it's not like Sona ult isn't also bringing a lot to teamfights.)
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Nautilus is arguably better than Leona if your AD is brain dead and doesn't realize Leona's passive is $bigdamage because Naut has a safer engage, point-click ult, and brings up to 3 stuns when you're getting ganked as opposed to just one.
Volibear is like a worse version of Blitzcrank for when they don't know how to kite.
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this is amazing! thank you so much.
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the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc
is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups.
the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out.
edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please.
edit2: i like this place btw :D fun actual thought provoking things. ty all.
sry for the imformal post tho its 3:30 am .. TL seems kinda formal. balls
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On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please.
i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first:
a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that?
from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles.
the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better.
all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided.
you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well?
Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items.
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On September 06 2012 08:38 spellsy wrote: the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka.
you go for extra start g old on the ms page is because you go boots start as well.
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
sona used to have the best 1-5, back before they nerfed her.. now shes kinda balanced to the point of which she has weaker early lanes, but ramps up hard. (however, i think s he still is kinda a bit op atm.) You can only really be hard aggressive 1-3 when you go heavy armor (21 armor rune page + 21 defense page), something you do like vs blitz.
Don't you think boots+2 wards allow for the enemies to trade way more agressively? I mean, you can't be allowed to take any hits vs a duo with health pots, because they can sustain themselves back up and you can't.
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Welcome to tl, glad to see you here. This looks good, and off topic i like your stream.
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the reason why i go 4 ap on that 9/0/21 page is because that page is for soraka. Yes and for Soraka 3 ad > 3 ap (and in my opinion it would be better to skill 8/1/21 anyway to get the 2 extra armor in defense if you dont want the spellpen which is obviously useless for soraka)
so its important to do like boots + 2 wards (in comp games you do this all the time, in solo Q i often go boot s+ 1 ward + 2 pots, which case the 2 points MAY be better spent).
I do not agree that you should go boots 2 wards everygame really depends what you want if you want for example lvl 1 ward top/wraith to prevent agressive junglers or you want early lanewards against really agressive botlanes. Boots 2 wards are good but there are games where you need more then 2 wards early and then you are in trouble.
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On September 06 2012 13:01 xes wrote: Nautilus is arguably better than Leona if your AD is brain dead and doesn't realize Leona's passive is $bigdamage because Naut has a safer engage, point-click ult, and brings up to 3 stuns when you're getting ganked as opposed to just one.
Volibear is like a worse version of Blitzcrank for when they don't know how to kite. I think soraka has a harder time vs voli simply because she has no cc that can slow you.
On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote: sry for the imformal post tho its 3:30 am .. TL seems kinda formal. balls It's better than official LoL forums.
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I know my skills in the support roles are probably less than yours (I've maxed just under 1500 elo, you are over 2k), but I have tried a few things that aren't really "standard" or really considered on my main supports (Taric, Leona and Janna).
On taric, I actually run Mpen reds and armour seals rather than armour reds and gp10 seals (Once I save the IP, imma buy some GP10 quints) so when I go in for the ERW combo, it does even more damage and bursts even harder when paired with someone like graves/vayne/Corki. I would even consider health or health/lvl seals on him since he gets a significant amount of armour from shatter.
For Leona, I focus more on the health runes over the resitances considering the free stats from her Eclipse. I've actually started building high HP items (Giants belt, upgrading it if the game goes past 50 mins) since I usually don't have any problems with having low resistances.
In the case of Janna, I sometimes build boots of mobilities rather than CDR/Sorcs/Mercs so I can roam around and help mid/jungle as well as my lane partner. Of course I don't build these when the opponents have a CC support (Alo/leona/taric), but against Sona/Soraka and to some extent Lulu, I made great use of the extra mobility.
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I saw your post on reddit with your powerpoint! That really helped me alot. :-)
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^I thought someone else made the reddit post on supports. Maybe two top supports made powerpoints.
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On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items.
Games aren't typically decided at 16-17 minutes. If your team gets so thoroughly crushed that you're going to surrender at 20 your decision to use gp10 runes is probably a raindrop in the ocean.
Keep in mind that items are more valuable than raw stats. 20 AP from Runes/Masteries is not as valuable as an Amplifying Tome because the Tome actually builds into useful items. This makes gp10 runes incredibly useful because you're effectively gaining the same stats you would have had, only in a form that can be built into something greater.
Items are a different story. I stopped building more than one gp10 most of the time, jungler or support, even before they nerfed them. It's not worth trading away that much early/mid-game power.
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On September 07 2012 00:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items. Games aren't typically decided at 16-17 minutes. If your team gets so thoroughly crushed that you're going to surrender at 20 your decision to use gp10 runes is probably a raindrop in the ocean. Keep in mind that items are more valuable than raw stats. 20 AP from Runes/Masteries is not as valuable as an Amplifying Tome because the Tome actually builds into useful items. This makes gp10 runes incredibly useful because you're effectively gaining the same stats you would have had, only in a form that can be built into something greater. Items are a different story. I stopped building more than one gp10 most of the time, jungler or support, even before they nerfed them. It's not worth trading away that much early/mid-game power.
Why wouldn't you get HoG and Philo? HoG gives you tankiness as well as gp10 which is fantastic for any support/support jungler and philo builds into shurelya's which is basically a staple for supports.
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On September 07 2012 00:23 ibreakurface wrote: Why wouldn't you get HoG and Philo? HoG gives you tankiness as well as gp10 which is fantastic for any support/support jungler and philo builds into shurelya's which is basically a staple for supports. As mentioned before:
On September 06 2012 07:04 MoonBear wrote: Re HoG/Kindlegem: At the risk of bringing up the whole gp10 discussion thing again, HoG really is just bad on Supports now. With the 350g only giving you 20 extra hp, it really is just spending 350g to have it released back yourself over the next ~12 min. As always, money now is more important than money later. Getting a straight up Kindlegem gives +200 hp and +10% CDR which gives you far more lane and teamfight control about about the same cost. Hard to compare.
Philo is still a good buy since it's 110% efficient in terms of the stats it gives you while offering a clean itemisation path into Shuerelya's. HoG is only ~50% efficient in terms of stats and is a horrible upgrade while not providing a clear itemisation path which makes it a wasted slot. The 350g you're spending on HoG means a delayed Aegis, Shurelya or Zeke while you're not really getting much benefit out of it compared to a base Ruby Crystal that builds into all of those three items (and you have to rebuy the Ruby Crystal again too). Pre-nerf HoG may have been good enough to justify itself but not any more.
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i rarely have games that are decided by 16/17 minutes.
gold/10 is a good investment if you have no plans on fighting with your opponent toe-to-toe in a straight-up engagement, this goes for both runes/masteries and g/10 items. That makes it really good on pokey types of champions, or in lanes where there is a ton of passive farming (which, admittedly, can be kinda hard to judge for bot lane in champ select sometimes). Philo is, I think, the only real exception to this philosophy (huehuheu), because A) afaik the stats are pretty cost-efficient, and B) reverie is an amazing item. On a support like leona, for example, i would not get gold runes/masteries (unless there was some setup i wanted where i wanted the bonus starting gold), because her design is such that you want to be hard engaging on bot any time you get a good opportunity.
edit: and ya, i agree with moonbear, hog is just a shit item now. At this point, I only get it on junglers/top laners that are going to be getting omen soonish.
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GP10s of any kind come down to risk benefit analysis. If there's a risk that they won't be useful then you don't get them. If the risk is small and benefit is big then get them.
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i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ):
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Philo is, I think, the only real exception to this philosophy THe problem with philo stone is: yes it might be the most cost effective g/10 item but what do you do with insanly cost effective hp/5 when you just get oneshotted. I guess the Dorans Shield and/or Kindlegem first might be the best new build and just get the philo stone later for the early shurelia
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I still like getting HoG first when I can because you need GP10 income and you need HP. Even though HoG is inferior to Philo in stat/gold, it gives you the GP10 you need and the stat you really need. But Philo builds into Reverie so you have to buy it anyways and then you end up with 2 GP10. To be more gold efficient, I guess you could buy a ruby crystal and boots instead, but then you have no GP10.
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On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 16:15 spellsy wrote:the reason why i dont include fiddle/yorick/your favorite cheese support/gp /lux /zyra/leona/morg/leblanc/ etc etc etc is because like i said in the PowerPoint, this is based on my experiences. if nobody ever plays those (no matter how much you theorycraft that they are viable!) i cant write about them. Not only getting a first hand play experience is important, but also playing against them - and in several matchups. the only reason why i include mao/jarv/naut was simply for the joke, and because it is pretty clear that you know jarvan is just simply leona but worse when it comes to support (except vs olaf, jarvan is better vs olaf i suppose).. etc etc. you dont really need a deep wealth of info to figure that out. edit: i also have been running it as 8/1/21 since we used to run heal on supports every game and only changed it before making this PP (so people wouldnt go OMG WTF BBQ YOU HAVE IMPR DEF SUMMS BUT NO HEAL?) .. guess that didnt actually work as now every time ive posted it people have gone OGM MAGIC PENN . BUT. the moral of the story is theorycrafting and really really digging deep (i know this may make us theorycrafters / forum nerds [i said us cause i am one of these] mad) is pretty irrelevent; one mastery point doesnt change shit. There were many pages before this which i have run for hundreds of games which will have all 3 summ things improved simply cause im too lazy to change each time for which summs i was actually running. this is also why i invest in things like "sage", cause some games (where there are bloody level 1s) they can be gamebreaking, 1 mastery point which is gamebreaking a small percentage of the time? yes please. i have a few questions for you. I've never been a great fan of gold/time runes/items. I've played quite a couple of games (mostly with sona) where I didnt get gold/time runes and items at all (I only got the masteries because +40g at start is op). so let us theory craft a bit first: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that? from my experience map control isnt really a gold issue at all. it is more of a presence issue. The team who has the better presence will have the better mapcontrol because they can afford to ward juicy spots and run around with oracles. the g/time items have been discussed to death here but same fact remains: you need to wait for about 15min to make them pay for their additional cost. they will become free after another 10/15min or so. so many important engagements happened before that, so having better stats when you actually need them just sounds better. all this makes me wonder if stacking that much g/10 is really the thing. actually I'am pretty sure in the future we will see this much less. a single gold item is more than enough to have steady mapcontrol with wards. actually when i'am buying two of them I never really finish either aegis or shureilas before they really start to pay out. and most of the time when I finish aegis the game is mostly decided. you yourself have started to try out builds with alot of dorans shields and slower g/time items. and you experienced how strong supports suddenly feel with some costeffective stuff on them. when would you say that a couple of dorans stuff is better than alot of gold items and what do you think about getting costeffective runes as well? Right now I think most ppl stack so much gold/time because they are freaking greedy. They think they will get bigger items like aegis and shureilas for free later, when it is not actually free at all. If you really want to build aegis then build it. Gz you're 1600 gold closer to it now because you didnt buy gold items. In the games ive not used my GP5 runes, ive noticed a pretty big difference in how much gold i'll have, with the mastery and all that aswell. The only ones i dont run GP5 on are Cow/Blitz, (favoring armor/movespeed) but i still run GP/5 on them most of the time
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On September 07 2012 02:43 Ente wrote:THe problem with philo stone is: yes it might be the most cost effective g/10 item but what do you do with insanly cost effective hp/5 when you just get oneshotted. I guess the Dorans Shield and/or Kindlegem first might be the best new build and just get the philo stone later for the early shurelia
Hp5 obviously doesn't help you if you get gibbed, but it has immense value if you're taking hits/blocking skillshots for your carry or being aggressive. Unless you're playing extremely passively in lane, and even then, you're going to take some damage. If you're getting gibbed around the time you finish Philosopher's Stone it's probably because of misplay rather than because of item choice.
That's not to say skipping Philo is wrong, just that there is significant value to Hp5 during laning.
In a sense this all goes back to the bygone days when everyone ran Flat Health Quints. It was argued that 97 extra health was super strong for laning, up until people figured out that Hp5 Quints regenerated that much health every minute. Having full health for every trade or gank was simply stronger than entering the lane with 97 health that only lasted as long as the first trade.
On September 07 2012 02:53 xes wrote: I still like getting HoG first when I can because you need GP10 income and you need HP. Even though HoG is inferior to Philo in stat/gold, it gives you the GP10 you need and the stat you really need. But Philo builds into Reverie so you have to buy it anyways and then you end up with 2 GP10. To be more gold efficient, I guess you could buy a ruby crystal and boots instead, but then you have no GP10.
You don't really need the gp10 income. It's really nice to have gp10, but it's really not something you should go out of your way for like that. If you really feel you need health early (which is strange to me, but I digress) you can grab a Ruby Crystal and then build Philo. You're putting yourself behind 350g by building the Ruby Crystal into HoG as well as distancing yourself from Kindlegem/Aegis.
In general gp10 is way overvalued. Picking up 2 CS every 3 minutes is equivalent to a single gp10 item.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 16:57 clickrush wrote: a quint is worth about 100g. 1g/10s pays out in 16/17min. Isn't that really late considering how games are decided way before that?
While I disagree with buying gp10 items, I would point out that assigning quint slots a value of 100 gold is over-valuing them, given how most of the other practical quint choices for supports do not hit that value.
I think gp10 quints/masteries are ok given that a) you start benefiting from them immediately, and they pay off earlier, and b) the tradeoffs aren't as steep as for gp10 items. Gp10 items are totally unnecessary, and, as others have said, the value of the gp10 on them is heavily over-valued given their inherent cost-inefficiency.
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re: gp10 items vs not, etc.
the thing with this is you should go out and try it, theorycrafting doesnt do it justice.
As the bonus slides doran shield build has been when ive recently been running no gp10 build. While my first item has been usually faster (I'll get 2 doran / aegis or something by ~17 min or something, opposed to normal aegis timing at ~20-23).. BUT, the second item ill get is significantly slower.
Another potential flaw is when lane phase does not go well. If there are mistakes, they are better, or just shit happens (which happens at all levels of play), you fall off much harder than normal gp10 support. It'll be 10-15 min when i finish 2 dorans / armor boots.
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I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
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On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote: I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On September 07 2012 09:10 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote: I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this. The answer is probably not to.
Alright, found time to go through your guide in more detail. For a guide that's designed to be brief, I can't find many flaws in it. A lot of the criticism I would level mainly centers around going more indepth about the supports such as your positioning in lane and usage of key skills. But you could write essays upon essays on these topics so yeah lol. If you ever choose to expand upon this guide, it would be really good to talk about the correct usage of Janna Tornado, or the difference between Q and W max in lane on Soraka. They're interesting topics I think people can benefit from reading about.
I'm personally not too sold on a DShield build, primarily because it clogs up valuable inventory slots and doesn't offer a smooth tragectory towards obataining key support items. In some ways, it relies on your opponents not know what it does and being baited in to it. As Day[9] said "A strategy which relies on your opponents being bad rather than you being good is not a reliable strategy." (Or something to that effect). Then again, it does have a soloqueue emphasis so I guess it can work as a janky style Support Build (sort of like how Volibear is a really good janky Support).
I was going to rate it highly, but you don't have enough cute pictures of Leona. Need at least 10 more or something. So 1/10, would not read again.
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Re: Heart of Gold.
Kindle is a better item if the game isn't going to be passive for another XXX minutes, but if one wants a faster Aegis why not go Ruby + Cloth Armor. I am not going to claim to have done the math, but vs. Physical it should offer just as much if not more survivability vs most jungles and bottom lanes.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 08:00 spellsy wrote: re: gp10 items vs not, etc.
the thing with this is you should go out and try it, theorycrafting doesnt do it justice.
As the bonus slides doran shield build has been when ive recently been running no gp10 build. While my first item has been usually faster (I'll get 2 doran / aegis or something by ~17 min or something, opposed to normal aegis timing at ~20-23).. BUT, the second item ill get is significantly slower. That's not possible. In order for your second item to be faster with the gp10 build, your gp10 item has to pay off its value ENTIRELY, which takes 27 minutes. You're not getting gp10s at the start of the game--generally within the range of 10-15 minutes. While your definition of "significant" might vary, you have to be going on something like a 50+ minute game for the gp10 to be getting you items noticeably faster.
On September 07 2012 08:00 spellsy wrote: Another potential flaw is when lane phase does not go well. If there are mistakes, they are better, or just shit happens (which happens at all levels of play), you fall off much harder than normal gp10 support. It'll be 10-15 min when i finish 2 dorans / armor boots. It takes 11 minutes for HoG to even break even. By the time the non-gp10 support "falls off" compared to the gp10 support, its long past laning phase. In fact, immediately effective items and faster support items (Aegis, etc.) means a support that had a poor laning phase actually has a better chance with non-gp10s because they can contribute more to teamfights sooner, and make back their bad laning with assist gold/etc.
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On September 07 2012 09:10 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote: I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
i dont know how to tackle this.
I'll give it a go-- I'm a pretty bad support, but I can give a few basic opinions because I'm bored.
Soraka is fine... she gives basically infinite sustain to the adc, which gives them the option of starting Doran's. Against a Soraka lane, you will lose and get pushed out. Raka is weaker than she used to be, but then again she was pretty bullshit before. Lategame Raka (Rabadon/DFG/Aegis/Shurleyas/Boots) is almost a hypercarry IMO.
Blitz is countered hard by many champs, and past a certain elo people will be smart and not get pulled. I'm a huge fan of Blitz, but he's way too binary of a champ. He needs to land pulls and get money, or he's useless.
Leona is pretty good. I don't play her, but she's surprisingly tanky and does a surprising amount of damage, and can be played really offensively as well.
Sona is a kind of a jack-of-all-trades master of none (after her nerf). She's really, really offensive and her ulti is one of the best in the game.
Nunu should be toplane. The only thing he's good for is countering a troll ADC malphite+ Janne lvl 1 first blood combo.
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The thing with GP10 is you buy it not because you need the income early, but because at the 20 min mark there is no income. Most of the time you're in mid lane or at dragon and whenever wraiths come up your mid takes it and whenever a lane has a large wave your top or ADC goes to annihilate it before everyone goes back to standing around poking towers. If tried running support without GP10 items and only GP10 runes, and while I can get assist gold and sneak CS in lane, around 24 mins I go totally broke just trying to buy wards. Sure you have a super early aegis, but then you have no income to get the next item. And at soloq that extra fast aegis aura usually isn't enough to make up for inherent skill differences in deciding teamfights anyways.
So you could buy lane items and then buy the GP10s at like 15 mins but then you might as well just buy them earlier unless you are getting tower dove all day at 11 mins and buying GP10 would just get you killed more (or you are tower diving them at 7 mins and want to buy Triforce on Taric h4h4h4).
Edit: So my personal experience coincides with Spellsy even if it defies math. If you skip GP10 the first item is earlier but the later ones are impossible to buy, because "2 CS every 3 min" is a lot when you get a total of 1 CS every 5 waves sneaking in creeps your mid laner didn't blow up in one spell.
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On September 07 2012 08:59 topoulo wrote: I think your guide is a bit off .
first soraka blows , her cooldown is way too big , shes too squishy and her mana buff silence is nerf to grounds. Her heals ap ratio is laughable as well and with support items her heals are simply worthless.
Blitz is one of the best supports if you can pull the ad carries if not loose games.
Leona is wortheless a sub par blitz.
Sona is semi decent
nunu is by far the best support now with bloodlust or whatever is called plus he can zone out the other with his tankish starting hp.
I honestly can't tell if this is flamebait, but I'm going to respond anyways.
Soraka doesn't blow, she just isn't good in agressive lanes. Things like Graves/Taric, Corki/Leona and Ez/Nunu are extremely popular right now, and one of the reasons for this is their agressive abilities. Soraka is the Sit-back-and-farm-to-300cs Support champion. Just a few months ago Graves/Soraka was considered the best botlane in the game because Graves just wouldn't die and could basically freefarm.
Blitz is a 1-trick pony. Either you grab properly and win games or miss/grab tanks and lose horribly. He is too one-dimensional for me to really like him.
Leona isn't a subpar blitz by any comparison, She is a better tank, has more reliable initation and while she can't bring the opponent to her, she is still extremely useful in teamfights with her 1100 RANGE ULT INITATION and good CC/AoE.
Can't really argue on Sona, I don't like playing her.
Nunu is one of the best supports, mostly in the poke section and AD buffing, but if you want extreme burst or initation, Nunu isn't the best choice. Same thing for lane sustain, Nunu doesn't heal/shield the AD, only gives em some aspeed/movespeed. So if you are going for a poke lane (Ez), Nunu is probably one of the best, but otherwise he is outshined by a few others in other lane types.
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what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where.
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On September 07 2012 02:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote: i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ):
could you address this sir spellsy
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On September 07 2012 22:15 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote: i dont mean to nitpick, but you obviously undervalue Indomitable in the def tree ): could you address this sir spellsy i took the 2 points out of minion defense and put them into that in the 21 def paeg
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United States23745 Posts
I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
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On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote: I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote: I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage. Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious.
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On September 08 2012 03:06 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote: I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage. Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious. In my opinion, no they aren't worth it. There will always be people who argue that support jayce or kayle or nidalee or rammus are competitively viable. I've never played jayce as a support though and I'm not super high elo.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 08 2012 03:23 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 03:06 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 08 2012 02:25 obesechicken13 wrote:On September 08 2012 02:11 onlywonderboy wrote: I'm curious to know what people think of Support Jayce? It was ran in Korea a few times I believe, and when you look at his kit, it seems promising: MR/Armor reduction, slow, knock-back, good poke, team movement speed boost, MR/Armor and speed boost for himself. I haven't played it so I'm not aware of the negatives (I'm sure they exists. Maybe he's too squishy without items), but I would love to try it.
I don't agree with running support jayce if you're going to run support at all. Out of lane I don't think he has that much in terms of no gold utility. He has an AoE speed boost and a knockback, but without the items he'll be less tanky and less capable of dealing damage. Are the slow and MR/Armor reduction just not useful enough? Also from what I've seen, his Q through the W gate does pretty decent damage even without items (early-mid game anyway). I'm not just disagreeing for the sake of argument, I'm genuinely curious. In my opinion, no they aren't worth it. There will always be people who argue that support jayce or kayle or nidalee or rammus are competitively viable. I've never played jayce as a support though and I'm not super high elo. Yeah, we'll have to see if anyone breaks him out at the Season 2 Championship to see if he's competitively viable (I don't remember who actually ran him in an Asian tournament). That said, you can still get away with a lot of unconventional supports in normals or low-mid elos.
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jayce needs levels really badly. He can get by with less items, and is still very useful even if he gets shit on in lane (which happens very rarely), but he needs to hit double digit levels asap.
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Very nicely put together spreadsheet. I'll have to muck around with the Doran's Shield/HP5 quint setup if given the opportunity.
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Alright I was playing with a smurf and I left lane to go ward and he got mad at me for not warding our bot bush, the lane was reset in mid, is this something I'm supposed to do so he can farm?
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On September 07 2012 21:49 Sermokala wrote: what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where.
I've been trying it with Taric and Leona (and once I got to do it with Ali!). It's like a free exhaust if the adc attacks you.
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the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
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On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote: the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
I think with a naturally tanky support champ that you would be okay. You might take a bit of a skillshot/aoe and poke, but you should be more than able to get out safely and then just regen away. I think in what I call YOLO terms, so its a bit binary-- either you take a little trade and will regen away, or all the hp in the world won't save you and you're screwed anyways.
Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you. Let's say you have 1k hp at... some level. I think Taric at lvl 7 is 1k hp. At that point, you would need 500 hp to equal the 50 armor. A ruby crystal is 475 and gives 180 hp (2.6 gp/hp). That's 1300 gold for 500 hp. Including the regen and passive, I think an argument could be made to its usefulness.
Course its theorycrafting for the most part-- my ~10 games of normals/ 1300 elo is not a big enough sample.
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For the Wardens mail when you played AD carry once you will realize that his is basically the worst item in the game to face (the upgrade Randuins has exactly the same pssive which is the huge thing). I actually never tried/saw that on supports early on but im quite sure that this is a really good item in certain situations/with certain champs. When you are quite rich as the support (sometimes it happens ) and when you play supports which are in the enemy face like Taric leona Blitz etc I think its more then sth to think about.
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On September 11 2012 09:05 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote: the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something. Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you.
this isnt how armor works
Damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor ≥ 0
ehhh i think? idk maybe it does work like that
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Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1500 damage to kill him. on target two, you need 2000 damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see.
edit:: I"m dumb, fixed numbers
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I really liked this powerpoint, and I've managed to branch out a bit and play more than two supports. I did run into a major problem though. There are times when I don't know the support for the job. Today, I had a Taric (me)/Cait vs Graves/Sona. I thought this was a good idea because we should have been able to put great pressure on them while staying safe from the burst. It did not work out that way, and I felt like we couldn't be agressive enough to take advantage of Cait's laning. Who would have been a good support for Cait?
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On September 12 2012 07:44 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 09:05 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote: the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something. Warden's gives 50 armor, which works out to needing to take 50% more base physical damage to kill you. this isnt how armor works Damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor ≥ 0 ehhh i think? idk maybe it does work like that
It does actually work out like that. Ex. 100 armor: 100/(100+100) = 0.5 reduction, or rather you need to take double damage to die (or as I say, 200% extra damage). It's just an easier way to think of it rather than thinking in a bunch of complicated percents and stuff. The wiki calls it "effective health".
On September 12 2012 07:47 Lmui wrote: Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1,333 damage to kill him. on target two, you need 2k damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see.
1500 damage for the 50 armor, but yeah.
100/150 = 2/3 reduction. Reciprocal is3/2, so 3/2 *1000 = 1500.
(I Asian, I r pro maths lulz)
On September 12 2012 08:28 Dark_Chill wrote: I really liked this powerpoint, and I've managed to branch out a bit and play more than two supports. I did run into a major problem though. There are times when I don't know the support for the job. Today, I had a Taric (me)/Cait vs Graves/Sona. I thought this was a good idea because we should have been able to put great pressure on them while staying safe from the burst. It did not work out that way, and I felt like we couldn't be agressive enough to take advantage of Cait's laning. Who would have been a good support for Cait?
Graves is just really strong and bursty. Sona is the most offensive support as well with her Q harass. Taric is generally a very offensive support, but Sona's ranged magic harass kind of counters that. I usually do raka with a Cait adc, though sometimes I play around with Teemo. All dem traps real terror. Cait is really strong early but she falls off later, so you want some way to build a big advantage early on.
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On September 11 2012 08:07 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 21:49 Sermokala wrote: what do you guys think of a regen bead (the small one) 3 ward opening into a fast wardens mail. it doesn't give that mana regen that allows you to be flexible in lane but wardens mail seems like a really epic lane item for supports that want to get up close and personal. 50 armor 20 per 5 health and a passive that has a chance to slow the enemy and their attack speed and costs less then 1400 gold seems really op.
I mean its working for me while I try taric nunu its pretty funny to watch the enemy ad carry attack me and then be slowed and have their damage brought down allowing a really nice play to come out of no where. I've been trying it with Taric and Leona (and once I got to do it with Ali!). It's like a free exhaust if the adc attacks you.
Yeah and in the mid game it hits the non ap carrys dps like a truck while you tank a ton as well as being frankly insanely cheap item for what it does.
I've gone for double nmm after getting the mail with boots and then a kindelgem. then it gets a bit situation. I've been getting mana pots a lot when I've got wards and some extra money when a philo just doesn't seem worth it. I remember when people got like 7 extra health pots when they were op but I'm doing the same thing with mana pots and its really paying off instead of getting a mana item for a support.
I'm not speaking from a real position of authority but thats just what I've been feeling and seeing out there.
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On September 12 2012 07:47 Lmui wrote: Figure you have two dummies with 50 armour and 100 armour and 1k hp
on target one, you need 1,333 damage to kill him. on target two, you need 2k damage to kill him, 50% more than target one
Armor does work like that, it's just a little difficult to see. What the Asian said. It's 50% more than your base so it's still not considered a diminishing return.
target 1 1500 damage needed target 2 2000 damage needed
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What do you guys think of Gangplank as support? I recently read the approved support GP guide on solomid and I've tried it in 5 games so far (1 ranked) and pretty much crushed every lane I've played against(hardest was caitlyn + garen in a normal game), raise morale is a superb steroid and parrrley is pretty much the most annoying poke in the game, also global ult can really seal ganks and gain you nice assist gold.
Gangplank has more troubles against supports that have sustain, but I've shutdown especially blitzcranks pretty hard.
Also tried doran's shield on him and really like it, makes him so tanky on lane.
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GP support was pretty good when he still had decent scaling on his E, but nowadays i'd rather put him top and farm up and be more useful than having a gimped bruiser. While he does provide utility he severely lacks peeling/cc. He scales pretty darn well if farmed up and built properly, but forcing him into a low-econ situation where he'll only be sitting on reverie/aegis/zekes/locket makes him inferior compared to other supports.
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GP support seems like basically a worse Nunu support. Also has problems edging out Sona's huge... lane presence, since he overlaps significantly onto her roles in lane as well.
GP Q ~ Nunu E (short CD ranged harass) but nunu E is better because of MS/AS slow. GP can afford (mana) more harass, but it's short enough range that you have to be careful executing it or you get punished. You might be having a good time with GP support at lower Elo because people aren't punishing you for harassing with Q. If you're picking a support to harass your opponent out of lane, sona is better anyway.
GP E ~ Nunu W (MS+Power buff for me and my friend) - nunu W has 100% uptime, making it much better for laning. The passive part of your E isn't as powerful when you're the support instead of the focus of the lane.
Those two skills are the core of what makes GP support work, and Nunu does them better. Not seeing how GP is going to edge out Nunu in supporting.
So what's left? W - CC removal (less useful on a support than others, since you aren't as big a focus. People will just ignore you anyway.) R - AOE slow - something other supports have - but global offensive presence (the only thing to make GP support stand out)
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On September 15 2012 02:27 sylverfyre wrote: GP support seems like basically a worse Nunu support. Also has problems edging out Sona's huge... lane presence, since he overlaps significantly onto her roles in lane as well.
GP Q ~ Nunu E (short CD ranged harass) but nunu E is better because of MS/AS slow. GP can afford (mana) more harass, but it's short enough range that you have to be careful executing it or you get punished. You might be having a good time with GP support at lower Elo because people aren't punishing you for harassing with Q. If you're picking a support to harass your opponent out of lane, sona is better anyway.
GP E ~ Nunu W (MS+Power buff for me and my friend) - nunu W has 100% uptime, making it much better for laning. The passive part of your E isn't as powerful when you're the support instead of the focus of the lane.
Those two skills are the core of what makes GP support work, and Nunu does them better. Not seeing how GP is going to edge out Nunu in supporting.
So what's left? W - CC removal (less useful on a support than others, since you aren't as big a focus. People will just ignore you anyway.) R - AOE slow - something other supports have - but global offensive presence (the only thing to make GP support stand out) oh! true.
ive played vs a few gp supports, toopro4u plays him alot but i havnt really played with him much in last few months, and while ive seen him be successful in lane i think once or twice, it does not feel that desirable.
the thing with these off-supports is it is more people looking for gimmick cause they are too bored with "normal", even though this gimmick is not just worse viability wise, but more boring gameplay wise.
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Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support".
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On September 16 2012 02:20 Dark_Chill wrote: Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support".
thats what i tried to do with this guide, you look at pros and cons and you analyze the rest of your team then pick the one which suits your teams strengths or mitigates teams weaknesses and such.
maybe i was unsuccessful in that aspect tho
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On September 16 2012 02:57 spellsy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 02:20 Dark_Chill wrote: Any chance you might be doing a "which support is best for which situation" guide sometime in the future? Not anything match specific, but things like "what do I want to accomplish by picking this support". thats what i tried to do with this guide, you look at pros and cons and you analyze the rest of your team then pick the one which suits your teams strengths or mitigates teams weaknesses and such. maybe i was unsuccessful in that aspect tho
I understood that much, but helpful summaries which sort of give a a general idea of what you want can be really useful, as I'm unsure on certain champs. Like Leona, I can look at the description, and get an idea of what I want to do with her. High damage and cc, short tankiness, goes all in. Okay, I know that I want her in a burst lane, wanting to get kills early and go off of that. Problems come when I look at say, Blitz. High damage and cc, low tankiness for melee, etc. I see overlap in both champions, and then I can get confused on when to pick one over the other.
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i just bought da leona
how to play her yo?
6.3k support has to be good right? lulu is op so...
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On September 16 2012 07:12 ticklishmusic wrote: i just bought da leona
how to play her yo?
6.3k support has to be good right? lulu is op so... hit e i think, stun then collect a win.
So that powerpoint on supports, made me think, Double dorans shield -> philo(or other way around mroe likely) could prob be the new alternative to HoG? (i know i still get HoG and advocate its not that bad but he gave some hella good logic) you get 240 hp a bunch of hp/5 and armor, for almost the same price. Doesn't seem too shabby imo.
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Really good guide, thanks for making it I'll definitely be using this the next time I have to play support lol...
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On September 11 2012 08:40 spellsy wrote: the only thing i see with the whole wardens mail thing is its expensive and it doesn't give hp. So if it was cheap but didnt give hp then you could combo it with a ruby crystal or something. Or if it was expensive but gave hp then it would be a holistic solution. But since it gives no hp and its really expensive idk if it can work, cause its hard to tank hits even if you have high armor if you dont have high hp as well.
but i think i might try it tonight in a solo Q game or something.
Have you tried the mail rush built yet?
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i much prefered going doran shields, or just going heart of gold into like aegis or spirit visage .. see my recent tankraka games !
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Not sure who did this, but this seems like it could produce a pretty interesting discussion for the support thread. Support match-ups
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spellsy made that ofc. i'm sure he's going to put it in the OP when he remembers this post. i'll remind him
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In that, shouldn't Alistar be a better support for Trist? I know Leona gives more power early on, but he's a lot better at keeping people away, which is what Trist really wants late game. And I definitely would have thought that Leona is really strong vs to Sona. Sona has no real way to get Leona off until 6, and her low health makes her a really easy target for all the damage Leona brings.
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i was gonna update it and make it cool and then release it here i think
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Spellsy I saw your visual guide to bot lane support pairing and I have to mention, I strongly suggest you look at Zyra as a support with Varus, they work really really well together, and the ult wombo combo puts ori/malph on notice for most op wombo in the game, you can have boots/fairy left hit 6 and if the ad eats a Zyra E they are a dead character.
I have a specific build for this lane. standard fairy/wards/pots
first back if gold for kages, get kages, leave fairy, if only gold for philo, go philo
then work towards manip and boots1, finish the gp10 you don't already have, then go into full blown soul shroud, thats right, I said it.
From here you can get whatever you need, zekes if time permits (zyra isn't a particularaly good oracle holder) but after the manip it's pretty much buisness as usual for a Zyra support, the main ideas here are just the wombo combo and manip so varus can spam abilities, I started using this lane as a counter to taric ( it does a shitload of magic damage) but I found it works extremely well vs anything but blitz (this combo has nothing to protect them from blitz pre 6.
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yea, zyra varus sounds ok, why would you do zyra over sona though ?
sona has more dmg and has the heal, while zyra has more cc and bush control. I think varus is a medium-low dmg carry, so I think sona pairs with him better than zyra, as its not lack of CC but rather i think cc+ dmg is what he needs.
maybe with the level of cc tho zyra can do more dmg than sona simply cause the plants get lots of hits in cause so much cc.
I think its on par with sona, the thing is when i choose zyra over sona is to deal with whether you are forcing teh engagements or they are forcing them and you are countering. for forcing i choose sona, for countering i choose zyra.
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Any tips on counterwarding/warding against blitzcrank?
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I would love some tips on how the hell to deal with ali/blitz in lane. They get really crazy sometimes.
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Ha, came to look at that support match-up image to see which supports suit Twitch, but there's no sign of the rat, hue. I guess either an early-game bully like Sona to give him space to farm, or a buff/debuff-bot like Nunu?
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I would love some tips on how the hell to deal with ali/blitz in lane. They get really crazy sometimes.
try and freeze the lane in a good position, as a support it's your job to sometimes tank a wave for a few seconds so it doesn't push under tower and reset, or help your AD cull them to keep it frozen.
Other than that, brush wards. If they pink ward, call in your jungler to push them back and clear it with a pink of your own. An uncontested brush ward shuts down ali's lane dominance really hard and makes camping out as blitz somewhat trickier. They're still scary and you can't be too cocky, but you should have the advantage if you're a ranged support or taric/leo with your initation combo.
Oh, yes. Vs blitz, make sure your ADC knows that the moment blitz fails a grab you immediately engage for a trade if possible (and no giant wave of enemy minions or something equally problematic). Then make it your job to safely bait grabs (or get your carry to if they're ez/siv/vayne or someone else with an easy pull juke) and then counterpressure. you can pretty effectively wear down blitz's health and mana over time if you do this which renders him incredibly vulnerable to ganks with a depleted shield.
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bump: spellsy i really thought this was the most insightful thing ive read for supports. is it possible to update it for Season 3 if anything are drastically different?
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I would love to hear your thoughts on the new items and what you think people should try out.
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its tough to do it all in one post, especially since ive been experimenting a lot myself, you can get a lot of like my recent thoughts though on this long fiddle guide i did: http://www.lolking.net/guides/48492
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Im looking to do a bit of an update / new edition of this ppt, what do you guys like the most / want changed the most ?
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I think playstyle and match-ups are the most important parts, since you can get a generic runes/masteries setups (worst case you use your bruiser page instead of your support/gp5 for Alistar and run 0-21-9, for example) but knowing where to start is probably the harder, with bad habits not to take and stuff. For example I see Alistar is melee, a bit tanky, and with longish cooldowns. I know I'll probably eat poke and need to get tanky to survive that, rather than stuff like mana regen, but I still have no idea how to play him since excellent new peeling supports came out (Zyra, Nami, and Lulu who got popular) and he received nerfs.
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Dare I say that playing support is actually nice nowadays? After getting Sightstone(/Ruby) and Flask, I actually get to build items without getting flamed! Real items!
I mentioned it in GD, but I rather liked Banner of Command on Soraka. The match sort of turned out that we were constantly sieging (even though our comp wasn't really made for it), so I felt that the extra minion power, especially with the promote, helped immensely. Not to mention bringing a nice hp5 aura for the team, which stacks with Aegis. The AP didn't hurt either.
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spellsy, you broke my heart with the Nautilus/Jarvan/Maokai slides.
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On December 27 2012 13:00 Alaric wrote: I think playstyle and match-ups are the most important parts, since you can get a generic runes/masteries setups (worst case you use your bruiser page instead of your support/gp5 for Alistar and run 0-21-9, for example) but knowing where to start is probably the harder, with bad habits not to take and stuff. For example I see Alistar is melee, a bit tanky, and with longish cooldowns. I know I'll probably eat poke and need to get tanky to survive that, rather than stuff like mana regen, but I still have no idea how to play him since excellent new peeling supports came out (Zyra, Nami, and Lulu who got popular) and he received nerfs. ok well what i was thinking about planning to do is 1st do another pick guide type thing which is like this http://imgur.com/boqQE . to cover matchups, then making a new powerpoint updated with general laning / teamfighting advice, some opening builds, masteries, general support stuff, general support item stuff, and then an updated version of this ppt on top of it.. i was gonna adapt this to be more of a pro / con / when to pick +quickguide (aka rune/mastery/item page), do yuo think i should instead go for a smaller when to pick and more how to lane + quickguide ?
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I... guess it depends on what the objective is. The stuff I was talking about focused more on on how to play a particular support once you picked it, playstyle and stuff, while what you're planning seems more geared toward people wanting to play support in general (perhaps for maining it so they'll have the time to get experience about it). So if the objective is to talk about the support role in general I think your approach's better, I was more talking about my own needs as someone who greatly appreciated the resource the first time.
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I wrote 2 match-ups for janna which can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361846¤tpage=2#36
I can also do some in-depths for nunu:
Nunu in general
Playing support nunu requires a somewhat different sort of playstyle. You don't have any hard CC, you only got consume for self-sustain and his ult is a channel. In lane you should try and bully as much as possible, really bully them so much they end up hating you. It sounds like a completely stupid joke, but it's the #1 thing that distinguish a good nunu from a bad nunu. In team fights, the basic general principles are:
1. Always BB your ADC, and always use your Ice Blast to give additional peeling 2. Block all the skill-shots you can. 3. Wait with your ultimate until you see an opening gap.
Number 1 is simple, number 2 takes practice but number 3 is hard. Using Nunu's Ultimate is incredibly hard, especially with the amount of disruption. A patient Nunu is a successful Nunu.
Nunu/Corki
Generally when you play nunu, you want to max Blood Boil asap, but after playing the match up more than a few times, i've found that a route of EWEWE, R > W > E > Q works alot better, since corki's burst from his Q is rather high and he doesn't benefit that much from the early Attack speed compared to Ashe, Caitlyn,Vayne and Miss Fortune.
At the beginning of the laning phase, you should try and play abit passive. Nunu's lvl 1 and 2 aren't among the best, but once you get a second rank in Ice Blast, you can try and trade hits. If someone miss-steps, Ice blast them, Blood Boil you and your AD and start auto'ing forcing them backwards. A common thing i've noticed is how passive nunu is played in lane. You have some of the best base stats for a tank in the game, abuse it. If you can force the enemy bot lane, to hit you and not your ADC, then bravo you did your job. It seems rather easy, but it's a hard thing to master properly especially blocking skill-shots in lane is a thing that comes with practice.
Hope this helps abit. The same logic for Nunu/Corki can be applied to any other lane, but you should be maxing W first in those.
Hope it helps!
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Actually you can't go EWEEW because you have to wait level 5 to get the third rank of an ability, so it'd go more along the lines of EWEWE -> R>W>E>Q. A thing that gives me a bit of trouble when playing Nunu is when to take a point in Q. It's useful for a bit of sustain and pushing/nagging a last hit here and there, but most of all it can help a lot in tackling the dragon, especially early on when the 400 (potentially 800?) true damage is a higher portion of its HP. Some games are so passive I don't even level it at 8, but past some point it's hard to level it "reactively" as you take a really long while to level up.
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Ah right, my bad
If you feel like, your team can pressure dragon early on, it's not bad to take a point in Q at level 4, but usually i wait and get it at lvl 8 or 10.
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So what boot upgrades are supports getting?
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On January 04 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote: So what boot upgrades are supports getting?
I don't normally get boots upgrades, but in the few cases that I do it is usually captain boots.
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On January 04 2013 05:01 57 Corvette wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote: So what boot upgrades are supports getting? I don't normally get boots upgrades, but in the few cases that I do it is usually captain boots. Now, I can see them on tank supports like Ali/Leona/Taric, but I don't think Soraka/Janna type supports. Is it just that you find items too important or that you just don't like any of them?
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I think boots upgrade is spending your gold the wrong way. Homeguard is pretty good, but captain is just so expensive.
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Been trying to figure out when and where to pink ward as a support. Still not exactly clear though. I've been watching my friend (top 100 in Garena SG/MY, which I think would translate to possibly 2.4k+ elo on NA) play support and he seems to be able to pink ward to deny enemy vision accurately almost all the time, but I have never been able to figure out why he places the ward at that place and position at the correct time.
Any tips on pink warding?
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Anytime the enemy support leaves, even to back, try to get an estimate of "he should be here by now", look at where he comes back from, and with experience you can guestimate where he put a ward (your tribrush when you're blue? His? River bush? Drake?). I tend to ping it and indicate the duration in the chat, but it's kinda hard to keep track for the jungler.
Most of my pinks in the tribrushes/river area are placed well to deward the area though. It's a bit more about managing your gold when you try to complete a key item (early locket for example) and the enemy has a sighststone. You can always bait him while he tries to ward and get a kill tho.
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On January 04 2013 06:37 Alaric wrote: Anytime the enemy support leaves, even to back, try to get an estimate of "he should be here by now", look at where he comes back from, and with experience you can guestimate where he put a ward (your tribrush when you're blue? His? River bush? Drake?). I tend to ping it and indicate the duration in the chat, but it's kinda hard to keep track for the jungler.
Most of my pinks in the tribrushes/river area are placed well to deward the area though. It's a bit more about managing your gold when you try to complete a key item (early locket for example) and the enemy has a sighststone. You can always bait him while he tries to ward and get a kill tho.
I'm pretty fine with that, though thanks for the tip on guessing where he is though. It's after laning phase dissolves that I usually have problems identifying where they place their wards. Sure, they probably placed it at some objective or choke but I always seem to plant pinks when their wards aren't even at places I guess they would be.
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hey i made a new powerpoint, was wondering if anyone wanted to proofread it a bit while its in final stages or so, and i really like TL for this type stuff as they are .. hardcore, as is this ppt >_< .. its, comprehensive.
ok, so, pm me if you want
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OK im on final draft of my comprehensive support ppt, anyone want to proofread / feedback ? reply or msg me your email!!
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I gladly will be an editor for your powerpoint (particularly on the style/presentation - I'm sure you know better than I do on the actual content)
Sending you a PM.
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