EPT[Champion] Viktor - Page 7
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Blanke
Canada180 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On April 22 2012 09:40 Blanke wrote: Double ult isn't a guranteed win in games, especially if their team is spread out. You need good synergy with teammates, like jarvan or alistar, to really exploit the bug. don't kid yourself, -it's prohibative to trades in lane - if he gets the stun on his prison thing it's a 100% kill -Fed Viktor E is enough for teamfights even if he dosen't hit your entire team with ult if it were not for the fact that only like 10% of the player population even owns Viktor I would first ban him until it's patched out. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Of course he isn't the best pick compared to a lot of other mages, but he is damn good. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I'm saying the ult makes him a must ban. being good =/= must ban, most people don't ban Cass unless they plan to pick Ryze and I don't think anyone thinks she is UP | ||
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Eyore
Canada27 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Also I've been running into a disturbing trend lately. Viktors are running normal AP runes, (Ap/level blues, mpen reds, flat AP quints,any yellows (I've seen some running flat/scaling AP yellows and that makes this worse) and going boots+3 pots straight into augment: death on their first b. What this is doing is giving him a 0.91 scaling, huge range skill that takes off 267 (+0.91) magic damage before resists at around level 7. The laser bugging out probably gave rise to this trend but with just AP quints/blues a little math: At this point, viktor should have 15+10.8 AP from quints/blues, another 10 from masteries and 66 from his hexcore, giving 102 AP (An absolutely monstrous amount at this point in the game) Most of the APs I play have around 1000-1100 health at this stage with double dorans rings. I run +21 MR against viktor nowadays so I have 51 MR. With mpen reds, that's 42.5 meaning spells do 70% damage. Viktor's E (rank 4) does 267+93 damage at this point, for 360 damage, 252 after resists, a quarter of most mage's health from a skill that can't be dodged since it can't be seen half the time. It's a bit of QQ but also a reason why I've been banning him in ranked games for the last few weeks. If the Viktor decides to, he can win mid by trying to hit you with his laser on cooldown and there's nothing you can do to avoid the damage, little you can do to mitigate it and very little you can do to counter it unless you're kassadin or leblanc. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On April 26 2012 19:37 Lmui wrote: I'm pretty sure that the double ultimate bug is still in the game and the invisible glitchy laser is definitely still in the game. Double ulti I'm pretty sure of because there's no other way that viktor should be able to 100-0 me on maokai with merc treads, MR runes and a heart of gold without being in his gravity field. Also I've been running into a disturbing trend lately. Viktors are running normal AP runes, (Ap/level blues, mpen reds, flat AP quints,any yellows (I've seen some running flat/scaling AP yellows and that makes this worse) and going boots+3 pots straight into augment: death on their first b. What this is doing is giving him a 0.91 scaling, huge range skill that takes off 267 (+0.91) magic damage before resists at around level 7. The laser bugging out probably gave rise to this trend but with just AP quints/blues a little math: At this point, viktor should have 15+10.8 AP from quints/blues, another 10 from masteries and 66 from his hexcore, giving 102 AP (An absolutely monstrous amount at this point in the game) Most of the APs I play have around 1000-1100 health at this stage with double dorans rings. I run +21 MR against viktor nowadays so I have 51 MR. With mpen reds, that's 42.5 meaning spells do 70% damage. Viktor's E (rank 4) does 267+93 damage at this point, for 360 damage, 252 after resists, a quarter of most mage's health from a skill that can't be dodged since it can't be seen half the time. It's a bit of QQ but also a reason why I've been banning him in ranked games for the last few weeks. If the Viktor decides to, he can win mid by trying to hit you with his laser on cooldown and there's nothing you can do to avoid the damage, little you can do to mitigate it and very little you can do to counter it unless you're kassadin or leblanc. Those are the runes I run, but I'm personally not a huge fan of rushing straight to the augment. It's too all or nothing. It leaves Viktor a bit squishier and with less Mp5. It causes him to have a much smaller margin of error. If he does this, rush a Negatron and get your jungler to gank. Also, avoid his laser as best you can. Because he's relying on his laser to absolutely hit, if he misses, punish him. Since he's squishier, he should be much easier to gank, and if he misses his laser, he's going to struggle a bit more with mana. Yes, the augment makes his early-mid game absolutely terrifying. But play safer and punish the all-in strat. If you can get ganks off and shut down his early-mid game, he really struggles late game. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
Since his 1-4 is a bit weaker, he needs to be able to reliably deter people from wanting to jump him. MS quints are nice to just avoid it sometimes, but it's not my play style. I like to be more aggressive mid. Also, when getting ganked, MS quints won't save you from a targeted hard CC (like Ryze W), so once people are on top of you, being able to dish out that extra damage while getting away with your W helps. The extra AP also helps with the shield on Q. I do have a page with MS quints, but I don't use it much. I just prefer the AP quints in general. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
I'm also adding a VoD from the LAN tournament in CT last night. The enemy skill level wasn't incredibly high, but I feel I played Viktor really really well that game, so it's probably a good watch for anyone trying to figure him out. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on Athene's? Just had a lane where I was shut down hard early against a Morde (and failed Shyvana ganks). I couldn't farm under turret early and was taking too much harass from Morde's E to get in and laser shit, and even when I could it eats up mana REAL fast early. Whereas I normally rush Dcap after the 2xring Augment start, this time I felt it necessary to grab the extra Mres and CDR/mregen from Athene's before so I could harass more (and incidentally be less scared of Fiddle.) I might have grabbed an Abyssal instead or after chalice but before finishing Athene's except our Kennen already had one. (I also tend not to grab WotA in favor of extra beefiness after Dcap in most games in the form of Rylai's/Abyssal) Thoughts? | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 30 2012 00:13 WaveofShadow wrote: Nearing 90% WR with Viktor. I know I'm bad, and it probably seems like I'm bandwagoning on Soniv's success but I swear I've loved Vik since the beginning and didn't understand how people thought he was bad. (Arguable he is much better now since the Q buff.) Wish they'd fix his damn laser though. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on Athene's? Just had a lane where I was shut down hard early against a Morde (and failed Shyvana ganks). I couldn't farm under turret early and was taking too much harass from Morde's E to get in and laser shit, and even when I could it eats up mana REAL fast early. Whereas I normally rush Dcap after the 2xring Augment start, this time I felt it necessary to grab the extra Mres and CDR/mregen from Athene's before so I could harass more (and incidentally be less scared of Fiddle.) I might have grabbed an Abyssal instead or after chalice but before finishing Athene's except our Kennen already had one. (I also tend not to grab WotA in favor of extra beefiness after Dcap in most games in the form of Rylai's/Abyssal) Thoughts? I'm pretty iffy on Athene's. I think it's a great item, but is more suitable for champions with a kit more geared to supporting your team (Galio, Anivia, etc.) or sustained damage champs (Swain). Viktor can be built as more of a tanky sustain damage mage, so I think Athene's could be decent on him. However, if you want to use Viktor as a burst mage (which, I believe, is what he's best at), then I don't think Athene's works the best. In your situation, a tankier build may have been a good choice. In which case, sure, Athene's works, especially if you already have an Abyssal on your team. I'm just curious, what made you lose the lane against Morde so hard? Viktor vs. Morde is generally a lane I don't mind. It lets me farm pretty hard if I do it right, and if I capitalize on the right moments (between his CDs and when his shield is lower) I can generally kill him or force him out of lane. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
I'm just curious, what made you lose the lane against Morde so hard? Viktor vs. Morde is generally a lane I don't mind. It lets me farm pretty hard if I do it right, and if I capitalize on the right moments (between his CDs and when his shield is lower) I can generally kill him or force him out of lane. Maybe I overexaggerated a bit I guess, but I'll explain. ( I remember specifically at one point having like 2 cs to his 16) From level 1-4 or so he sits in the minions wave and clears it with usual AoE, sometimes saving E to try and hit me along with the minion wave if I get close to try and autoattack to last hit. I can hit him with Q/E every so often when his cds aren't up, but low early damage means I don't burst through the shield very hard, and since his full minion wave is now heading to my turret I need to use mana to farm rather than harass. A failed gank and bait from our Shyv nets him an early kill on me so now he's even further ahead. Eventually my damage caught up and I was able to burst him a little harder and since E now has some levels in it I can clear minions better with it from range. I roam, grab some kills and even though his cs is crazy high (he was farming our wraiths as well, I couldn't stop him alone) teamfights are ours every time and we win. I probably misplayed it and took too much of his harass early tbh, and outside factors kinda helped to screw me early but I caught up eventually. It's funny because someone yelled at me during the game 'If you're getting fucked so hard why would you 2nd pick Viktor if he's so easily countered?" And I was like o.o DON'T NO ONE COUNTER MA VIKTOR I think I might watch the replay and see exactly where I went wrong. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 30 2012 03:02 WaveofShadow wrote: Maybe I overexaggerated a bit I guess, but I'll explain. ( I remember specifically at one point having like 2 cs to his 16) From level 1-4 or so he sits in the minions wave and clears it with usual AoE, sometimes saving E to try and hit me along with the minion wave if I get close to try and autoattack to last hit. I can hit him with Q/E every so often when his cds aren't up, but low early damage means I don't burst through the shield very hard, and since his full minion wave is now heading to my turret I need to use mana to farm rather than harass. A failed gank and bait from our Shyv nets him an early kill on me so now he's even further ahead. Eventually my damage caught up and I was able to burst him a little harder and since E now has some levels in it I can clear minions better with it from range. I roam, grab some kills and even though his cs is crazy high (he was farming our wraiths as well, I couldn't stop him alone) teamfights are ours every time and we win. I probably misplayed it and took too much of his harass early tbh, and outside factors kinda helped to screw me early but I caught up eventually. It's funny because someone yelled at me during the game 'If you're getting fucked so hard why would you 2nd pick Viktor if he's so easily countered?" And I was like o.o DON'T NO ONE COUNTER MA VIKTOR I think I might watch the replay and see exactly where I went wrong. I always fp Viktor - 0 fucks given in solo queue. The trick to early laning against Morde is to do your best to either not get hit with his cone, or to trade the damage with him. His abilities cost health, and it's enough health early that he has to be careful about it. Viktor's auto attack is very responsive. You should be able to quickly pop some AAs on him to get his shield down and hit his health bar. One thing I like to do is pretend to walk towards my minions and juke away at the last second, baiting his E. If he doesn't hit a champ with skills, the amount he gets as a shield is much less and more manageable. But yeah, giving Morde an early kill instantly makes your life a living hell. Also, if your jungler lacks presence around your lane, or if you're behind, Morde can pretty much free farm your wraiths without worrying - but that's true for most AP mids, not unique to Viktor. One thing I've been meaning to try with Viktor is getting a 2nd point in Q early (possibly delaying W til 8, else sacrificing the 1 point in E til a little later). This is something that Aranium does (2k-ish player with ~200 ranked Viktor games I think). He builds Viktor a bit differently than I do, but I think the 2nd point in Q has some merit in certain lane matchups. Viktor vs. Morde lane is probably one of those. It gives you nice base damage to punish Morde for getting close, and it gives you a bit more shield and lower CD to keep punishing. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
As for delaying W until 8, I don't think there's any way I could do that in the era of behind-the-turret jungle Alistar ganks. Way too paranoid about getting baited/ganked early before I have the chance to go back for a ward to leave it up to Flash. My standard build is QEQWEREQ and so on. Edit: Damn it, my replay of that specific game is broken for some reason. Oh well, I still think I know where I went wrong. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 30 2012 03:35 WaveofShadow wrote: Ah I didn't realize you don't put the 2nd point in Q...I personally always do. It makes most iffy trades immediately favourable for Viktor. In this case against Morde I didn't since I knew I'd need E for safe long-range harass and farming, but I can see how stronger Q works well also (I'm just really bad at analyzing when to and when not to trade). I'm certain I screwed up early in the lane by taking harass and not giving back...I guess I'm always just surprised how tiny little advantages like that are enough to make you win/lose a lane if nothing else is done. As for delaying W until 8, I don't think there's any way I could do that in the era of behind-the-turret jungle Alistar ganks. Way too paranoid about getting baited/ganked early before I have the chance to go back for a ward to leave it up to Flash. My standard build is QEQWEREQ and so on. Oh, if I'm going against a jungler who has strong ganks, having W early (even lvl 3) is almost a must. The reason I don't get a 2nd point in Q early is because I really like having Rank 5 E at lvl 9. It coincides extremely nicely with the 2 DRing/Augment that I will be getting right around that point. But that's what I like about Viktor, you can really adapt him to your play style. I personally love having the ridiculous power of E as early as I can. But at the same time, I definitely see the merit in having that 2nd rank in Q early. I've also seen a few people at higher level have success with building tankier and getting W Augment to be more of a support-like mage. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Long story short, I was outfarming him a bit and harassing him despite their jungler coming several times and ours never, but then said jungler followed me in our jungle and though we burst him down when I turned Xerath got a double kill and bought a blasting wand to match my death augment. It was also right after the junglers handed the second blue to us, so he kept his for quite awhile and that allowed him to spam (esp. the cdr) while I could only laser once to clear the wave and occasionally for some harass. After that, he never lost his lead (and even increased it) as even though he wasn't very good and missed me most of the time, , even 2/3rd of an ult and a EQ combo would truck me, while my Q and R were too short range to allow me to reasonably harass him down before going in for the kill (did it once, he just flashed out of my ult range with 20hp left after ignite). How are those match-ups in your experience? Passive farming, with a bit of harass when you can get it, hoping they won't abuse their range advantage to get aggressive on you? | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
In my experience, you can't do much about the long range mages. You just have to cs and then wait for a mid game team fight to dominate in. If you're capable, push the wave in, and then counter jungle or gank other lanes. It's pretty much the same deal with the farm fest mages. However, often times they can just avoid mid game team fights altogether (if the team plays it right), and you slowly become more obsolete as the game goes on. The difference here is that if they do choose to go aggressive too soon, they will be in range for you to destroy, and then you can snowball this little lead. Best advise is to just do your best to capitalize on mistakes. Viktor isn't that good against Xerath unless you can flash combo him when he sieges up. | ||
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