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[Discussion] Season 2 Masteries - Page 3

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree.
Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience.
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1014 Posts
November 14 2011 08:22 GMT
#41
On November 14 2011 16:51 Magus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:40 cabarkapa wrote:
I suppose this will my my Lux page
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells.

But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups.

9/0/21 is looking a lot more useful on Ryze, you only really need the magic penetration mastery and the rest can go into the utility.

Yeah I'm not too familiar with Ryze, but the way I see it, you trade 3% spell vamp, exp%, and cooldown/summoner reduction for damage dealt, some ability power, and increased damage against low health targets.

To me it seems like the latter would be better for APs who rely on the burst of their spells, which probably isn't Ryze, but it's what I had in mind when I said the 21/0/9 would be similar for most AP casters.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
c.Deadly
Profile Joined March 2010
United States545 Posts
November 14 2011 08:43 GMT
#42
What are you guys thinking about running on ranged AD? Is there any reason to invest in utility or defense now that awareness is so high up on the tree? Is runic affinity worth losing out one some pretty useful offensive masteries?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

26/3/1
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
November 14 2011 08:49 GMT
#43
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!

My only gripe is no more nimbleness :[ Is it confirmed that Riot wants to phase out dodge or is it just speculation based on Riot's patching history? Because despite dodge being random, I feel like it's still critical, albeit a little niche, part of the game. Dodge is the only real way to deal with Vayne/Kog imo since their passive/autos are just so damn strong. Flat damage reduction as replacement for dodge just doesn't cut it in all honesty.
Lorken
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand804 Posts
November 14 2011 09:02 GMT
#44
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).
LOUD NOISES!!!
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1014 Posts
November 14 2011 09:06 GMT
#45
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.

Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage?
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Chrispy
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada5878 Posts
November 14 2011 09:23 GMT
#46
The cool thing about the new masteries is that you can go 30 offense/defense/utility and not feel completely retarded.
Retvrn to Forvms
Lorken
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand804 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 09:24:56
November 14 2011 09:24 GMT
#47
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.

Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage?

lol I guess not. I wouldn't have picked that up thanks!
Kind of off topic but with that 10% bonus for surge I think it's going to be quite an epic spell.

Anyone think spending 6 points for +2 gold per 10 and 40 bonus gold would be a waste? I guess on Soraka you could go boots + mana regen for philo stone if you wait a few secs at the fountain, or a few extra potions for other champs but nothing really costs around the 500 margin or low enough to buy two items with it.
LOUD NOISES!!!
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 09:57:32
November 14 2011 09:34 GMT
#48
For support it means you can swap one of your 3 wards for a pink ward and pack a potion, or open with 3 wards and 3 potions.

Oh god please don't go faerie + boots. Whenever I see a support open without wards I want to die.
Tyrran
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
France777 Posts
November 14 2011 09:38 GMT
#49
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!


Meh, as a jungler, that's basically investing 6 masteries point for 2 gp5 and 40 gold at start ( only an extra pot). Not worth it IMHO. Migth be better on support tho, allowin earlier philo or squeezing an extra ward at start.

I'm still waiting to see the impact of the exp masteries. Using the wolf->blue->Enemy wraith route ( Udyr/skarner) pretty much requires you to hit lvl 3 in order to really bully the enemy jungle. Also for some champ like WW that have extremely weak pre level 6 jungle/gank, the extra 5% exp migth really be useful.

Also, i'm wondering the viability of going 12/9/9 (Weapon expertise + Havoc in offence /Bladed armor in defense /runic affinity in utility). It seems like it could lead to a fast (atk spd+bladed armor) and safe ( defensive masteries) jungle into powerful( swiftness) ganks.... so many possibilities to test :D


Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1014 Posts
November 14 2011 09:53 GMT
#50
I think Greed should be 2 points instead of 4, it's looking to have very limited use at 4 points.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Shawngood
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 10:07:47
November 14 2011 09:58 GMT
#51
Runic Affinity is looking to be mandatory for every jungler now, especially since you have bonus movespeed, a faster bluepill and CDR on Flash as prerequisites for it.

Regarding the other trees I can't really make up my mind, especially since I'm unsure on how to value Executioner for a jungler.

Offense looks way more interesting than Defense for champs like Nocturne, GP, Trundle and so on. Especially the fact that you can get so much bonus AD, AS, APen and even lifesteal for free now.

Out of Defense I find interesting for junglers:
Tough Skin, Hardiness, Bladed Armor, Indomitable, Initiator, Honor Guard and Juggernaut. The rest looks like a lot of bonus HP which is nice on Rammus but rather meh on most offensive junglers.
Smite mastery (Summoner's Resolve) doesn't look mandatory anymore since it doesn't reduce the CD but instead they doubled the Gold per use. That's less than 1 GP/5 if you use it every 75 seconds though (without Mastermind). Pretty underwhelming.
@ESL_Shawn
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
November 14 2011 10:13 GMT
#52
On November 14 2011 18:23 Chrispy wrote:
The cool thing about the new masteries is that you can go 30 offense/defense/utility and not feel completely retarded.


I'm pretty pleased that 21/9 isn't mandatory anymore
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 23:24:00
November 14 2011 10:26 GMT
#53
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9

Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger.

Personally, on physical damage junglers, 1-pt Lethality and 10% ArPen seem too good to pass up. Anyone who was running 21 offense or defense before will probably continue to do so. The biggest change will probably be on junglers who ran 10+ utility setups (off the top of my head, Fiddle, Jarvan, Maokai, Nunu, Olaf, Rammus, Skarner, Udyr, Warwick)--these guys will fall in varying places (Fiddle/Olaf will probably go 21 offense, Rammus will probably go 21 defense, Jarvan/Maokai/Nunu/Skarner/Udyr/Warwick are toss-ups).

+ Show Spoiler +

Some possible mastery setups for those toss-up champs:

Jarvan - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/12/9... He likes doing damage, but he likes being tanky...WUT DO I DO???

Maokai - 9/12/9, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. % MPen and Runic Affinity are both good goals in the offense/util trees, but Juggernaut also feels like it's great with his kit.

Nunu - 0/9/21, or 0/15/15. Nunu feels like one of the few junglers that might actually want to stick to 21-util, given his support-ish kit, and how those extra smites can be pretty crucial for him. The deeper defense masteries don't feel that good for his role as a defensive support lategame (esp. given his low farm), but being able to romp around their jungle with 4-pt Swiftness + 3-pt Initiator feels like it could be good.

Skarner - 14/15/1, 14/9/7 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. You don't need Lethality, Vampirism, Sunder, or Executioner, but both Alacrity and Sorcery give you stats you want, and getting both %-pen masteries on a hybrid-damage champ that won't usually get LW or Void feels like it goes a long way. With the other 16 points, you could either dump them all in defense, or you split 9 in defense for Bladed Armor + 7 in util for Meditation.

Udyr - 15/14/1, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. Same deal as Skarner in a lot of ways. He doesn't have mana problems though, so no real point in going 7 util.

Warwick - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/9/12, 9/12/9... Ok I have no clue what the fuck to do with Warwick. The only thing I feel is really clear-cut at this point is "pick 2 out of Arcane Knowledge, Bladed Armor, and Runic Affinity, and do whatever the fuck you want with the other 12 points".


One big change to note is that some counterjungle routes that required certain Smite timings achievable with 21-util might not be worth doing anymore.

On November 14 2011 17:13 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 17:04 gtrsrs wrote:
On November 14 2011 16:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9


I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers.
For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


really? x_x
can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha
every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best


yarly.
You can drop Indomitable and a point in Honor Guard for Initiator if you so wanted. I actually had that before. But the whole "70%" didn't seal the deal for me. As a jungler, you're gonna be under 70% a lot of the time it feels.

If I was going to ditch points for Initiator, I'd drop some of the Armor/MR. They were good filler before, but now that everything else has been buffed, they're pretty underwhelming.

On November 14 2011 17:43 c.Deadly wrote:
What are you guys thinking about running on ranged AD? Is there any reason to invest in utility or defense now that awareness is so high up on the tree? Is runic affinity worth losing out one some pretty useful offensive masteries?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

26/3/1

Honestly, Havoc doesn't even match Brute Force in damage per point till like 200 AD. For the vast majority of the game, it's not that good. IMO having Runic Affinity is better than Havoc.
Moderator
-Zoda-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
France3578 Posts
November 14 2011 11:04 GMT
#54
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!

If you want weatlh, you can do something like that on AD junglers: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-2-0-0-1-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0
♪ 最初はi つなぐdo それ つまりlife 常に移動 ♪ - IGN: Uhryks
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
November 14 2011 11:20 GMT
#55
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.


The opposite actualy.

Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too.
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1014 Posts
November 14 2011 11:29 GMT
#56
On November 14 2011 20:20 h3r1n6 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.


The opposite actualy.

Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too.

I meant in the sense that he only went into utility for the buff duration increase, the movement speed is quite useful to have.

But yeah I agree, a lot more people will be running around with that additional 2% movement speed, so the actual benefits to getting it are lessened.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 13:06:03
November 14 2011 12:12 GMT
#57
People are going to blow each other up early game, especially with all the squishies massing in the offensive tree.

Champions like Leblanc are going to be more retarded than ever cos they're going to hit every slightly harder which is usually all they need to instagib.
Tyrran
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
France777 Posts
November 14 2011 12:31 GMT
#58

Actually, getting the 2% will be mandatory on most jungler without a gap closer and a disable. You know that feeling you have when running after someone that's just an inch to far for you to stun him, even if you have +3% MS mastery and MS quint. Well its going to be more frequent now .
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 13:30:24
November 14 2011 13:03 GMT
#59
This seems to fit perfectly for my Karthus: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


Regarding greed and wealth: yeah it´s quite an investment BUT remember that doran+pot is literally the strongest opening and was run on ANYONE when dorans were cheaper. The value of wealth isn´t 40G but being able to have a far stronger lvl1.
Greed also competes with spellvamp and runic affinity, masteries certain champs can easily skip, supports in particular.

Wealth means you start with 515 Gold. If you are a support and are expected to get a ward thats 440 left - and lets you get something like a regrowth pendant (435). Or you could get regrowth pendant + fairy charm at exactly 515 total.
Shawngood
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany473 Posts
November 14 2011 13:04 GMT
#60
Stonewall's post about the new masteries on Reign of Gaming is definitely worth reading:
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/stonewalls-jungle/4268-the-new-masteries-and-jungling

+ Show Spoiler +
First and foremost I have already had the privilege to fool around with the new masteries months ago so I can already tell you that it's a very wonderful thing. I can also say the jungle remake will make a bigger impact than the masteries.

To be perfectly honest though I did not get to test out the supposed experience boost but since this is a tournament patch I doubt they want to affect the current meta too much.

In any case, I've already tested out certain builds and certain paths and your build freedom is a lot greater and epic. The 8 mandatory points in utility was very restricting and you end up sinking 9 since where else is that last point going to go?

The new masteries will cause two different versions of many junglers. I dubbed them the "Focus" and "Transition" builds. There are certain mastery combinations that were simply godly for junglers but I would reason they would miss out a lot of the awesome higher tier tree points.

I'm sure some of you have already taken a gander at the masteries and gone "oh wow all these jungle masteries sound so cool" and you're right. Some junglers make incredible use of some or all of those and that is their "Focus" build. During my testing of these things I argued that despite them wanting to make jungling less strict on your masteries it's not going to happen completely. I mean, there will always be a standard or there will always be a "best" build. However, this is where "Transition" builds came into place. I figure most jungler types will require/need some sort of mastery requirement (like a minimum of X masteries) and then fill whatever they want.

In Short ----

Focus Build = Maxed out Jungle Prowess for X champion (masteries and runes dedicated to giving a champion his strongest jungle possible)
Transition Build = A minimum rune and mastery build that fits a champion's real/best build in order to make transitioning as smooth as possible

This already does happen btw just the gap will be a lot more noticeable with the mastery changes. The balance is going to be important and it will diversify jungling.

Some people may ask - why even bother with focus builds if the jungle phase doesn't last forever? Well think of it this way. Are you using someone like Nunu/Skarner (a strong control jungler) vs a gank heavy champion like Nocturne that will have a worse transition if shut down than you? This too already exists where some junglers are given the job to simply terrorize the enemy jungler and keep him down to support his team indirectly. A focus build would boost your jungle and possibly allow you to abuse non control junglers.

This is a buff to control junglers in my opinion. Also Amumu freaking loves these changes.

So basically - I haven't seen the experience changes and if the experience mastery loss has been balanced out - this is only going to buff junglers and make transitioning less awful.

Also - I am fully aware that I have to remake a lot of my jungle videos. I will focus on remaking the popular junglers first and then move on to requests that you can message me about in either my youtube channel or my twitter . I myself want to see just how Trundle and Jarvan work out with the new masteries. The current jungle I videos will still have relevant paths and it is very likely they've only been made stronger with OBVIOUS choices. I will NOT deleted. They will be archived for the enjoyment of the masses and as sort of history thing.

I will either name all the jungle videos something else like "NEW JUNGLE NOCTURNE" or simply go back and rename all the jungle videos adding "OLD" or "OBSOLETE" while changing their tags so they don't pop out in search over the new jungle videos.

As far as my tier list goes - I don't foresee much change between the junglers there. If the paths stay the same and the general strength level doesn't deviate too much - the positions likely won't be affected much. That being said, I will personally test a lot of champions out and evaluate them there. I may end up adding another aspect score such as "Transitioning" with it's own specifications for grades.

In any case - new changes to the game are always exciting and I do hope - especially with the jungle remake - that if it really doesn't go down well, Riot simply goes back to the old ways and doesn't force us to accept stuff we aren't too fond of.

Also Lee Sin is freaking strong with these masteries.

Every jungler may now have either 2 separate videos (or one big one) separating the Focus and Transition build jungles. The Focus build will have mostly strict masteries while the Transition builds will have a minimum mastery tree as well as the "bonus" points they get such as if Warwick needs only 10/6/0 to jungle that would mean he has 14 bonus points to jungle.

Example - Transition Jungle Warwick

Runes
Fus Red
Ro Yellow
Dah Blues
Skyrim Quints

Masteries
10/6/0 + 14

So I hope I don't get questions about how this works in my videos. Some champions are now able to jungle using strict Focus builds such as Irelia and Renekton. I mean they can jungle now but this time they won't fuck themselves extremely hard.
@ESL_Shawn
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