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Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree. Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/ 6% damage is actually quite a bit, even if it's only vs >40% health targets I think they set the 40% because they want champions to be dealing more damage without buffing poke. | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/ Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:37 Niton wrote: Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced. In practice it's arguably stronger than the old mastery. Characters that went 21 pts in offensive are usually AD carries, who don't deal big damage at the start of a teamfight. If you think about it, AD carries usually don't engage until one or several of the characters have been bursted down to low health, to avoid being insta-gibbed themselves. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
And it looks like we're done with it, but lets not get into "what is a tank" in this thread--every time it shows up on GD it always devolves into madness. MADNESS. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
Also might give supports another decision to make regarding masteries. Do you want all the generic supporty stuff in the def/uti tree, or pour points into the offense tree in hopes that your individual heals can be more potent? Right now the current new trees just feel like such a non-decision for most champs. | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
Because it's strictly better than the old version (besides only being able to put 2 points into it instead of 5 points), I think it's worth it for any champ that could potentially eat minion damage early game (riven, garen). Thoughts? | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.) Would love to test, but I don't own twitch. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/ | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
On November 18 2011 00:38 mr_tolkien wrote: What masteries would you us for Ryze ? And for AP casters like Morgana ? I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/ Ryze would like 9/0/21 still quite a lot for the CDR, etc, and the fact that he doesn't need all that AP you get in the offense tree. Morgana, it would depend on whether or not you wanted to have more utility or damage. Most people are going to play her 21 offense, because the offense tree is just too strong to pass up, but 21 utility could work if you want to poke with her Q all day and have more shields. I'd say a lot of what you want to do in general is based on how your champion's power is going to curve and how long you can reasonably expect the game to last in respect to that curve. Take for example Zilean, who is absurdly stong in lane and throughout midgame, but lategame his damage drops off a cliff and he becomes more of a farmed support than anything. In all honesty, I would run him 21 utility, because the AP per level and Executioner masteries aren't going to make him that much better in lane, while the CDR buff and summoner cooldowns will help you make more clutch plays with your ult and your slow/haste. But if you think you can end the game before 35+ minutes, go 21 Offense and just lololol all day. | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
Ryze is a tricky one due to his weak AP scaling but I believe there was some discussion on him if you search the thread. | ||
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Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 17 2011 15:56 sylverfyre wrote: So, since all sorts of jungling got easier, can twitch clear jungle more competently? Can he do it with 21 offense 9 defense? How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.) Would love to test, but I don't own twitch. I dont own twitch, but do you have a PBE account? I know this isn't it's purpose, but it's a great place to do try out or test some characters while (hopefully) looking for bugs. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Logrus
United States228 Posts
On November 17 2011 07:06 Shiv. wrote: It had been, but I feel like Vlad really needs the CDR badly. I played as Malz vs a Vlad mid the yesterday and got rocked. We killed each other a few times in lane, but when I killed him it was I clearly outplayed him, juking him into pooling and silences and maximizing my minion dps. When he killed me... well, I'm not saying it wasn't his skill, I'm just saying there wasn't much room for skill when his Q hit me for 40% of my hps. Certainly I underestimated his damage in a large way. I should have paid more attention to his items and runes. I'm paraphrasing, regardless, at a certain point I suddenly couldn't do anything in lane vs him cuz his q threat was too large. After the match I checked his build and it was as follows: flat ap quint, flat ap blue, flat ap yellow, flat ap red x4, mpen red x5 0/9/21 was his exact build: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I'd take initiator over evasion but this is wat he used exactly. open amp tome -> haunting guise/sorc boots -> hit for a billion I had been thinking of a a theoretical Vlad build (I have yet to try): mpen red, hp/lvl yellow, flat cdr blue, move quint. 9/0/21. Figure open boots 3. I wanted to focus on mobility and cdr altho clearly I am lacking in early offense comparatively. This is something someone else used that's really really different but it def worked so I found it interesting and thought I'd share it. Its 'gimmicky' but it was really strong. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote: Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over. amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear. Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 18 2011 03:40 PrinceXizor wrote: amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear. Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed. ...no skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin). | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441 just me ranting about this shit I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW. This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team. Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes. This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On November 18 2011 06:17 phyvo wrote: I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW. This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team. Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes. This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games. Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:11 Mogwai wrote: ...no skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin). hard to gank anyone when you don't have HP, which is what the amp tome excels at doing over boots. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 18 2011 07:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well. For the reason you stated it's not as much of an issue on non-supports but for supports it's very different. Unless you are banking on early aggression a support doesn't really require the extra stats early on and given a more passive game it's simply not a concern for the support and by the time you get to your first back you reap the benefit because you get to buy more wards or a dring + wards. Of course if you like running aggressive firstblood combos bot (zergling rush kekeke) then there's no point to going utility for gp5. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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