Thanks to met48 @ LoL subreddit for making the planner
[Discussion] Season 2 Masteries
Forum Index > LoL Strategy |
Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree. Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Thanks to met48 @ LoL subreddit for making the planner | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:28 Craton wrote: I really dunno what I'm gonna do with renekton. Want arp but aspd so useless on Renekton. Mpen isn't bad for his ult with the CDR pre-req, but I dunno that it's worth not getting arp. Maybe this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I'm not sure I like ditching Lethality. You don't really need it on Renekton, but consider that it was already competitive as a 3-point mastery. Even on someone like Renekton who gets pretty tangential use out of +% crit damage, the gold value per point is so insanely good with it being a 1-point mastery that just the incidental crit from buying Atma's makes it worth it IMO. | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
but i believe 21/9 builds were still preserved in the remake On November 14 2011 15:23 Kenpachi wrote: assuming 21-0-9 will be the new way of the caster, i think this is the most optimal + Show Spoiler + In what case would you go 9-0-21 for ap casters anymore? + Show Spoiler + how about a mastery page set up for a split pusher? 14-15-1 | ||
h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
http://thefwcentral.comhttp://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 Other than that, standard caster masteries will be 9/0/21 or 21/0/9. With the 2nd I find it extremely hard to place the 9 points in ulility. Meditation is a really strong mastery, but swiftness is really good as well (not as good as before obv, but its higher in the tree now) What do people think? | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
where standard really means base - there are lots of tweaks that can be made to suit certain champions, and also I have no clue what most junglers actually want because I suck at jungling EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing. I can't wait to come to lane with FC/Pot/4 wards as a support. (not to mention that practically everyone appreciates an extra pot to start in lane) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote: My (theorycraft) predictions for the standard mastery setups I don't understand why you skip Runic Affinity in all your 9-util setups. With a 5% buff, it's pretty clearly stronger per-point than anything else available in the first 3 tiers of utility. | ||
SpaceToaster
United States289 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-2-2-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:34 TheYango wrote: Ryze is like the only person I'd still go 9/0/21 on, lol. The deeper offense masteries aren't that good for him because they give AP. I don't understand why you skip Runic Affinity in all your 9-util setups. With a 5% buff, it's pretty clearly stronger per-point than anything else available in the first 3 tiers of utility. oops that is me forgetting Runic Affinity is in tier 3 edited because i typo'd | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote: EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing. actually now that i think about it, if a jungler commited to the utility tree, wouldnt he be able to buy a potion or 2 with Wealth? | ||
Cixah
United States11285 Posts
This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:38 infinitestory wrote: oops that is me forgetting Runic Affinity is in tier 2 It's in tier 3. 9 gets you 1 point in tier 3. This has always been the case. On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote: EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing. Greed/Wealth is going to suck because the gold value/point of Greed is so bad now compared to before (it used to be that 1gp10 was worth more gold value in a game than most 1-point masteries; not the case anymore). You pay 6 mastery points to start with an extra 1 pot, when 6 more points in offense or defense potentially give you game-changing stats like % ArPen or % crit damage that are way bigger than 1 pot. On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote: My new Jungler page This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints. For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote: My new Jungler page This is why I would feel most comfortable with on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints. Out of curiosity, why Summoner's Wrath (Exhaust/Ignite/Surge/Ghost) instead of Summoner's Resolve (Revive/Cleanse/Heal/Smite/Garrison)? I also think Improved Recall is going to turn out to be pretty much useless compared to Summoner's Insight. | ||
Theoren
Canada810 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:29 TheYango wrote: What are people's thoughts on Havoc vs. Vampirism on AD champs (jungle, top, or bot)? I'm not sure I like ditching Lethality. You don't really need it on Renekton, but consider that it was already competitive as a 3-point mastery. Even on someone like Renekton who gets pretty tangential use out of +% crit damage, the gold value per point is so insanely good with it being a 1-point mastery that just the incidental crit from buying Atma's makes it worth it IMO. Just to add to this, Taking Havoc over the Deadliness is a poor use of points as each 1% of crit increases you're overall damage in the game by 1% so you are getting terrible value out of Havoc. I think on Renek I'm probably going to run this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-3-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 most of the time with the points in CDR being flexible. | ||
Cixah
United States11285 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:43 infinitestory wrote: Out of curiosity, why Summoner's Wrath (Exhaust/Ignite/Surge/Ghost) instead of Summoner's Resolve (Revive/Cleanse/Heal/Smite/Garrison)? I also think Improved Recall is going to turn out to be pretty much useless compared to Summoner's Insight. Haha, because I'm super good at reading. I'm so used to the smite talent being in offensive that I put there assuming it was still there. Changing now. | ||
Navi
5286 Posts
lethality and deadliness' gold values have gone up a bunch, and that 10% arpen is gonna be sweet | ||
h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:23 Kenpachi wrote: assuming 21-0-9 will be the new way of the caster, i think this is the most optimal + Show Spoiler + In what case would you go 9-0-21 for ap casters anymore? + Show Spoiler + Well ryze as mentioned. The main point of the deep utility tree is the 6% cdr. When the main point of the champ is damage (karthus/cass), 21 offense is probably the way to go. Especially in the Karthus case, the 21 offense mastery synergizes well with his ult, so thats a given. Chars with more utility (annivia/lux) might just benefit more from the cooldown reduction. Also, utility offers way more sustain and the experience bonus, which means it is way better for laning. It also depends a bit on the used runepage too. The new trees are definately more interesting than the old ones. | ||
Cixah
United States11285 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:42 TheYango wrote: For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery. When/where was this stated? I don't recall it being in the Patch Preview, but could be wrong. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:46 Cixah wrote: When/where was this stated? I don't recall it being in the Patch Preview, but could be wrong. There have been multiple red posts about it. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17137319#post17137319 Whether the mastery/XP quints will be needed will depend on whether the XP changes create new XP breakpoints for non-conventional jungling paths that Riot didn't think of when adjusting the XP values. On November 14 2011 15:46 h3r1n6 wrote: Well ryze as mentioned. The main point of the deep utility tree is the 6% cdr. When the main point of the champ is damage (karthus/cass), 21 offense is probably the way to go. Especially in the Karthus case, the 21 offense mastery synergizes well with his ult, so thats a given. Chars with more utility (annivia/lux) might just benefit more from the cooldown reduction. Also, utility offers way more sustain and the experience bonus, which means it is way better for laning. It also depends a bit on the used runepage too. The new trees are definately more interesting than the old ones. CDR is a poor reason to go 21-util because every AP carry can cap off blue buff + blue elixir + 5% more (4 of which comes from offense). Get like 2 flat CDR glyphs if you're really anal about that last 1%. | ||
dottycakes
Canada548 Posts
Oh, and aren't they increasing the CD on Flash? Mastermind will be a bigger deal. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:48 TheYango wrote: There have been multiple red posts about it. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17137319#post17137319 Whether the mastery/XP quints will be needed will depend on whether the XP changes create new XP breakpoints for non-conventional jungling paths that Riot didn't think of when adjusting the XP values. CDR is a poor reason to go 21-util because every AP carry can cap off blue buff + blue elixir + 5% more (4 of which comes from offense). Get like 2 flat CDR glyphs if you're really anal about that last 1%. Plus the fact that in Ryze's case, he can get tankier by dipping into the defensive tree while still picking up the large cdr/lv mastery down there. EDIT: like this perhaps? dunno, I don't play ryze, i only know the basic theory behind him | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful) Def tree: Health and Resists Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1 However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree. | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:10 NeoIllusions wrote: For Ryze... Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful) Def tree: Health and Resists Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1 However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree. Strictly speaking, the fact that FHeart + Q passive + 10% CDR caps you EXACTLY at 40% CDR makes getting 10% exactly from masteries somewhat compelling, especially since after Cata+Tear+Glacial, Ryze stops really needing the blue buff mana, which already opens up the possibility of passing the buff off to someone else. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:15 TheYango wrote: Strictly speaking, the fact that FHeart + Q passive + 10% CDR caps you EXACTLY at 40% CDR makes getting 10% exactly from masteries somewhat compelling, especially since after Cata+Tear+Glacial, Ryze stops really needing the blue buff mana, which already opens up the possibility of passing the buff off to someone else. Level 6-12, I'd still give Ryze Blue. Tear isn't that well charged, you'd have a Glacial at best, etc. End game at level 18, Ryze doesn't need Blue, I agree. | ||
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13866 Posts
get a tome or a long sword for casters or ad carrys. I've been wodering if it was worth it to go sword on a ranged carry then stright into a lantern for amazing all round lane skills and free wards. going to be a good few days trying out new paths. | ||
Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-2-4-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks. Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:24 sermokala wrote: oh god greed wealth changes things get a tome or a long sword for casters or ad carrys. I've been wodering if it was worth it to go sword on a ranged carry then stright into a lantern for amazing all round lane skills and free wards. going to be a good few days trying out new paths. You could buy both of those already... I open Tome + pot on Fiddle and Long Sword + pot on WW. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:26 Ryalnos wrote: Hmmm. For 21/9/0 jungle (I'm thinking Lee Sin) my first try is this: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks. Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms. Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good. Consider that right now, Deadliness + Lethality gives you 2% crit and 10% crit damage for 6 points. With the new masteries, you spend 1 less point, get 2% MORE crit, and the same amount of crit damage. | ||
Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:30 TheYango wrote: Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good. True, looks like the crit chance is worth ~50g per point, the lifesteal ~38 per point (judging by vampiric scepter/brawler's gloves). | ||
cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells. But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups. | ||
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good i was looking at 0/21/9 | ||
Magus
Canada450 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:40 cabarkapa wrote: I suppose this will my my Lux page http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells. But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups. 9/0/21 is looking a lot more useful on Ryze, you only really need the magic penetration mastery and the rest can go into the utility. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote: yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good i was looking at 0/21/9 I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers. For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 and something like this on nocturne http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:57 NeoIllusions wrote: I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers. For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 really? x_x can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best | ||
Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:30 TheYango wrote: Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good. Consider that right now, Deadliness + Lethality gives you 2% crit and 10% crit damage for 6 points. With the new masteries, you spend 1 less point, get 2% MORE crit, and the same amount of crit damage. Yeah, havoc seems like it's only good if you have every other offense point that your champ scales with. I'm still not sure how I'm going to do Jax, since he scales with everything and dodge is off the trees. I switch back and forth between 21/9/0 and 9/21/0 with the current masteries, so I'm thinking the same thing for the new ones with http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-2-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 for defense and http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-1-0-1-0-0-1-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 for offense. The buckets of AP in offense is tempting, but I'm pretty sure hybrids should jump on the opportunity to get double %penetration (huehuehue) since they don't itemize for it. Also hitting the crit just because its worth more per point now, and Jax is gonna get atma's 90% of the time. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:04 gtrsrs wrote: really? x_x can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best yarly. You can drop Indomitable and a point in Honor Guard for Initiator if you so wanted. I actually had that before. But the whole "70%" didn't seal the deal for me. As a jungler, you're gonna be under 70% a lot of the time it feels. | ||
BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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rainfable
United States171 Posts
Right now, since the offense page is mostly tuned to AD champions, AP masteries are normally 9/0/21, which right now gives them a good amount of cdr as well as the useful Awareness exp bonus.. With the new masteries, getting 4% cdr + 5% ap + 1ap/lv + 4ap + 1.5% overall damage along with 6% executioner damage to targets below 40% with a 21/0/9 build will force you to sacrifice 5% exp, 6% cdr, and extra starting gold, along with 15% summoner spell cd reduc, over sacrificing 1% total damage (1.5% if you go for 10% mpen instead), 10% mpen (0% if you sacrifice 0.5% total dmg off havoc), 1 ap/lv, 5% total ap, and the executioner bonus if you go 9/0/21 compared to 21/0/9. However, you do get a total of 10% cdr instead of just 4%, but I really do prefer the 21/0/9 ap boost over the exp. Right now with my runes, I start out with +45ap and 8.5mpen with a doran's ring, with 21/0/9 I would be starting out with 48 with 1.5% total damage and the executioner's bonus. The 5% exp is what really hurts, imo. Also the 15% summoner spell cd reduc. I hate having those moments where you really need a flash and it's like 2 seconds away from cd. u_u Seems like that's gonna happen to me way more and I'll be glasscannoning if I decide to stick with 21/0/9, but I'll be experimenting with it when it gets released, and I'll just see which one works out better for me.. right now I can't really tell. | ||
cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:51 Magus wrote: 9/0/21 is looking a lot more useful on Ryze, you only really need the magic penetration mastery and the rest can go into the utility. Yeah I'm not too familiar with Ryze, but the way I see it, you trade 3% spell vamp, exp%, and cooldown/summoner reduction for damage dealt, some ability power, and increased damage against low health targets. To me it seems like the latter would be better for APs who rely on the burst of their spells, which probably isn't Ryze, but it's what I had in mind when I said the 21/0/9 would be similar for most AP casters. | ||
c.Deadly
United States545 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 26/3/1 | ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
My only gripe is no more nimbleness :[ Is it confirmed that Riot wants to phase out dodge or is it just speculation based on Riot's patching history? Because despite dodge being random, I feel like it's still critical, albeit a little niche, part of the game. Dodge is the only real way to deal with Vayne/Kog imo since their passive/autos are just so damn strong. Flat damage reduction as replacement for dodge just doesn't cut it in all honesty. | ||
Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration). | ||
cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote: I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration). Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well. Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage? | ||
Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote: Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well. Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage? lol I guess not. I wouldn't have picked that up thanks! Kind of off topic but with that 10% bonus for surge I think it's going to be quite an epic spell. Anyone think spending 6 points for +2 gold per 10 and 40 bonus gold would be a waste? I guess on Soraka you could go boots + mana regen for philo stone if you wait a few secs at the fountain, or a few extra potions for other champs but nothing really costs around the 500 margin or low enough to buy two items with it. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
Oh god please don't go faerie + boots. Whenever I see a support open without wards I want to die. | ||
Tyrran
France777 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote: With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!! Meh, as a jungler, that's basically investing 6 masteries point for 2 gp5 and 40 gold at start ( only an extra pot). Not worth it IMHO. Migth be better on support tho, allowin earlier philo or squeezing an extra ward at start. I'm still waiting to see the impact of the exp masteries. Using the wolf->blue->Enemy wraith route ( Udyr/skarner) pretty much requires you to hit lvl 3 in order to really bully the enemy jungle. Also for some champ like WW that have extremely weak pre level 6 jungle/gank, the extra 5% exp migth really be useful. Also, i'm wondering the viability of going 12/9/9 (Weapon expertise + Havoc in offence /Bladed armor in defense /runic affinity in utility). It seems like it could lead to a fast (atk spd+bladed armor) and safe ( defensive masteries) jungle into powerful( swiftness) ganks.... so many possibilities to test :D | ||
cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
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Shawngood
Germany473 Posts
Regarding the other trees I can't really make up my mind, especially since I'm unsure on how to value Executioner for a jungler. Offense looks way more interesting than Defense for champs like Nocturne, GP, Trundle and so on. Especially the fact that you can get so much bonus AD, AS, APen and even lifesteal for free now. Out of Defense I find interesting for junglers: Tough Skin, Hardiness, Bladed Armor, Indomitable, Initiator, Honor Guard and Juggernaut. The rest looks like a lot of bonus HP which is nice on Rammus but rather meh on most offensive junglers. Smite mastery (Summoner's Resolve) doesn't look mandatory anymore since it doesn't reduce the CD but instead they doubled the Gold per use. That's less than 1 GP/5 if you use it every 75 seconds though (without Mastermind). Pretty underwhelming. | ||
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:23 Chrispy wrote: The cool thing about the new masteries is that you can go 30 offense/defense/utility and not feel completely retarded. I'm pretty pleased that 21/9 isn't mandatory anymore | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote: yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good i was looking at 0/21/9 Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger. Personally, on physical damage junglers, 1-pt Lethality and 10% ArPen seem too good to pass up. Anyone who was running 21 offense or defense before will probably continue to do so. The biggest change will probably be on junglers who ran 10+ utility setups (off the top of my head, Fiddle, Jarvan, Maokai, Nunu, Olaf, Rammus, Skarner, Udyr, Warwick)--these guys will fall in varying places (Fiddle/Olaf will probably go 21 offense, Rammus will probably go 21 defense, Jarvan/Maokai/Nunu/Skarner/Udyr/Warwick are toss-ups). + Show Spoiler + Some possible mastery setups for those toss-up champs: Jarvan - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/12/9... He likes doing damage, but he likes being tanky...WUT DO I DO??? Maokai - 9/12/9, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. % MPen and Runic Affinity are both good goals in the offense/util trees, but Juggernaut also feels like it's great with his kit. Nunu - 0/9/21, or 0/15/15. Nunu feels like one of the few junglers that might actually want to stick to 21-util, given his support-ish kit, and how those extra smites can be pretty crucial for him. The deeper defense masteries don't feel that good for his role as a defensive support lategame (esp. given his low farm), but being able to romp around their jungle with 4-pt Swiftness + 3-pt Initiator feels like it could be good. Skarner - 14/15/1, 14/9/7 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. You don't need Lethality, Vampirism, Sunder, or Executioner, but both Alacrity and Sorcery give you stats you want, and getting both %-pen masteries on a hybrid-damage champ that won't usually get LW or Void feels like it goes a long way. With the other 16 points, you could either dump them all in defense, or you split 9 in defense for Bladed Armor + 7 in util for Meditation. Udyr - 15/14/1, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. Same deal as Skarner in a lot of ways. He doesn't have mana problems though, so no real point in going 7 util. Warwick - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/9/12, 9/12/9... Ok I have no clue what the fuck to do with Warwick. The only thing I feel is really clear-cut at this point is "pick 2 out of Arcane Knowledge, Bladed Armor, and Runic Affinity, and do whatever the fuck you want with the other 12 points". One big change to note is that some counterjungle routes that required certain Smite timings achievable with 21-util might not be worth doing anymore. On November 14 2011 17:13 NeoIllusions wrote: yarly. You can drop Indomitable and a point in Honor Guard for Initiator if you so wanted. I actually had that before. But the whole "70%" didn't seal the deal for me. As a jungler, you're gonna be under 70% a lot of the time it feels. If I was going to ditch points for Initiator, I'd drop some of the Armor/MR. They were good filler before, but now that everything else has been buffed, they're pretty underwhelming. On November 14 2011 17:43 c.Deadly wrote: What are you guys thinking about running on ranged AD? Is there any reason to invest in utility or defense now that awareness is so high up on the tree? Is runic affinity worth losing out one some pretty useful offensive masteries? http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 26/3/1 Honestly, Havoc doesn't even match Brute Force in damage per point till like 200 AD. For the vast majority of the game, it's not that good. IMO having Runic Affinity is better than Havoc. | ||
-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote: With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!! If you want weatlh, you can do something like that on AD junglers: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-2-0-0-1-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote: Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well. The opposite actualy. Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too. | ||
cabarkapa
United States1011 Posts
On November 14 2011 20:20 h3r1n6 wrote: The opposite actualy. Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too. I meant in the sense that he only went into utility for the buff duration increase, the movement speed is quite useful to have. But yeah I agree, a lot more people will be running around with that additional 2% movement speed, so the actual benefits to getting it are lessened. | ||
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Champions like Leblanc are going to be more retarded than ever cos they're going to hit every slightly harder which is usually all they need to instagib. | ||
Tyrran
France777 Posts
Actually, getting the 2% will be mandatory on most jungler without a gap closer and a disable. You know that feeling you have when running after someone that's just an inch to far for you to stun him, even if you have +3% MS mastery and MS quint. Well its going to be more frequent now ![]() | ||
Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Regarding greed and wealth: yeah it´s quite an investment BUT remember that doran+pot is literally the strongest opening and was run on ANYONE when dorans were cheaper. The value of wealth isn´t 40G but being able to have a far stronger lvl1. Greed also competes with spellvamp and runic affinity, masteries certain champs can easily skip, supports in particular. Wealth means you start with 515 Gold. If you are a support and are expected to get a ward thats 440 left - and lets you get something like a regrowth pendant (435). Or you could get regrowth pendant + fairy charm at exactly 515 total. | ||
Shawngood
Germany473 Posts
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/stonewalls-jungle/4268-the-new-masteries-and-jungling + Show Spoiler + First and foremost I have already had the privilege to fool around with the new masteries months ago so I can already tell you that it's a very wonderful thing. I can also say the jungle remake will make a bigger impact than the masteries. To be perfectly honest though I did not get to test out the supposed experience boost but since this is a tournament patch I doubt they want to affect the current meta too much. In any case, I've already tested out certain builds and certain paths and your build freedom is a lot greater and epic. The 8 mandatory points in utility was very restricting and you end up sinking 9 since where else is that last point going to go? The new masteries will cause two different versions of many junglers. I dubbed them the "Focus" and "Transition" builds. There are certain mastery combinations that were simply godly for junglers but I would reason they would miss out a lot of the awesome higher tier tree points. I'm sure some of you have already taken a gander at the masteries and gone "oh wow all these jungle masteries sound so cool" and you're right. Some junglers make incredible use of some or all of those and that is their "Focus" build. During my testing of these things I argued that despite them wanting to make jungling less strict on your masteries it's not going to happen completely. I mean, there will always be a standard or there will always be a "best" build. However, this is where "Transition" builds came into place. I figure most jungler types will require/need some sort of mastery requirement (like a minimum of X masteries) and then fill whatever they want. In Short ---- Focus Build = Maxed out Jungle Prowess for X champion (masteries and runes dedicated to giving a champion his strongest jungle possible) Transition Build = A minimum rune and mastery build that fits a champion's real/best build in order to make transitioning as smooth as possible This already does happen btw just the gap will be a lot more noticeable with the mastery changes. The balance is going to be important and it will diversify jungling. Some people may ask - why even bother with focus builds if the jungle phase doesn't last forever? Well think of it this way. Are you using someone like Nunu/Skarner (a strong control jungler) vs a gank heavy champion like Nocturne that will have a worse transition if shut down than you? This too already exists where some junglers are given the job to simply terrorize the enemy jungler and keep him down to support his team indirectly. A focus build would boost your jungle and possibly allow you to abuse non control junglers. This is a buff to control junglers in my opinion. Also Amumu freaking loves these changes. So basically - I haven't seen the experience changes and if the experience mastery loss has been balanced out - this is only going to buff junglers and make transitioning less awful. Also - I am fully aware that I have to remake a lot of my jungle videos. I will focus on remaking the popular junglers first and then move on to requests that you can message me about in either my youtube channel or my twitter . I myself want to see just how Trundle and Jarvan work out with the new masteries. The current jungle I videos will still have relevant paths and it is very likely they've only been made stronger with OBVIOUS choices. I will NOT deleted. They will be archived for the enjoyment of the masses and as sort of history thing. I will either name all the jungle videos something else like "NEW JUNGLE NOCTURNE" or simply go back and rename all the jungle videos adding "OLD" or "OBSOLETE" while changing their tags so they don't pop out in search over the new jungle videos. As far as my tier list goes - I don't foresee much change between the junglers there. If the paths stay the same and the general strength level doesn't deviate too much - the positions likely won't be affected much. That being said, I will personally test a lot of champions out and evaluate them there. I may end up adding another aspect score such as "Transitioning" with it's own specifications for grades. In any case - new changes to the game are always exciting and I do hope - especially with the jungle remake - that if it really doesn't go down well, Riot simply goes back to the old ways and doesn't force us to accept stuff we aren't too fond of. Also Lee Sin is freaking strong with these masteries. Every jungler may now have either 2 separate videos (or one big one) separating the Focus and Transition build jungles. The Focus build will have mostly strict masteries while the Transition builds will have a minimum mastery tree as well as the "bonus" points they get such as if Warwick needs only 10/6/0 to jungle that would mean he has 14 bonus points to jungle. Example - Transition Jungle Warwick Runes Fus Red Ro Yellow Dah Blues Skyrim Quints Masteries 10/6/0 + 14 So I hope I don't get questions about how this works in my videos. Some champions are now able to jungle using strict Focus builds such as Irelia and Renekton. I mean they can jungle now but this time they won't fuck themselves extremely hard. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
Mogwai: they did not do good gold analysis on them at all Mogwai: tier 4 utility, "start with 20/40 more gold!" Mogwai: tier 1 offensive, "1/2/3 AD" Mogwai: 1 AD = 41 gold Mogwai: ZZZZZ Mogwai: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? | ||
bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
In season two we have new masteries trees. I can't help but think there will be some abuses of the mastery tree. Take for example this scenario. One person runs http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-3-2-1-1-0-1-3-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Super tanky, especially for siege commander. (They go surge heal, or something to that effect) Four people go AD (I wonder whether surge will stack, one goes surge-promote, the rest go surge heal, or everyone could go teleport surge or something like that) http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-1-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 You group up and press one side hard with surge (defensive guy tanks), promote and your tower attack masteries. If your opponents are sloppy in defense you may even get ganks. You then retreat to nearest bushes and teleport to your ward on the other side of the map and press two towers in a row with super tank. I think the game will be super mobile. What team strategies are you thinking of? Btw What I expect a lot of jungle masteries to look like: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-2-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-0-1-3-0-1-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
Obviously you wont see that in real games i'm just thinking of fun ways to noobstomp normals lol | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On November 15 2011 00:35 bobwhiz wrote: In season two we have new masteries trees. I can't help but think there will be some abuses of the mastery tree. Take for example this scenario. One person runs http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-3-2-1-1-0-1-3-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Super tanky, especially for siege commander. (They go surge heal, or something to that effect) Four people go AD (I wonder whether surge will stack, one goes surge-promote, the rest go surge heal, or everyone could go teleport surge or something like that) http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-1-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 You group up and press one side hard with surge (defensive guy tanks), promote and your tower attack masteries. If your opponents are sloppy in defense you may even get ganks. You then retreat to nearest bushes and teleport to your ward on the other side of the map and press two towers in a row with super tank. I think the game will be super mobile. What team strategies are you thinking of? Btw What I expect a lot of jungle masteries to look like: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-2-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-0-1-3-0-1-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 You could already do similar strategies now. While you may be able to take 3 early outer turrets using this gimmich if the enemy pulls their lanes you're going to end up at a dissadvantage experience and level wise by not utilizing you jungle minions and having 5 people leech all the xp from the same lanes. While your enemies will be able to gain all the farm and experience from all thier lanes and jungle. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 00:43 Butterednuts wrote: Support is going to be so good with these new masteries. not really. utility tree looks like garbage compared to the other trees right now. The other trees gained a ton of value while utility just forces you to put more points into masteries to get a lower benefit. Like, w/e yo, you get 2 gold/10 to start now, la-di-freakin'-da, you had to dump 4 points into it. You're now forced to get extra flat mana (zzz) in order to get meditation, which also now conflicts with getting the movespeed mastery. Also, Awareness and CDR mastery and now fighting with each other too. You need so many fucking points just to get the sorts of stats you could get before and for what? 5% increased sight range on wards? The ability to start with 40 more gold and 1 more gold/10? I mean, really? You're really going to say they're the ones who got the buff and not the fucking AD assholes who now get a free 10% ArPen? Or the tanks who now get 10% CC reduction that will stack with tenacity? Gimme a fucking break, utility got butchered in comparison. | ||
locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On November 15 2011 00:52 Mogwai wrote: not really. utility tree looks like garbage compared to the other trees right now. The other trees gained a ton of value while utility just forces you to put more points into masteries to get a lower benefit. Like, w/e yo, you get 2 gold/10 to start now, la-di-freakin'-da, you had to dump 4 points into it. You're now forced to get extra flat mana (zzz) in order to get meditation, which also now conflicts with getting the movespeed mastery. Also, Awareness and CDR mastery and now fighting with each other too. You need so many fucking points just to get the sorts of stats you could get before and for what? 5% increased sight range on wards? The ability to start with 40 more gold and 1 more gold/10? I mean, really? You're really going to say they're the ones who got the buff and not the fucking AD assholes who now get a free 10% ArPen? Or the tanks who now get 10% CC reduction that will stack with tenacity? Gimme a fucking break, utility got butchered in comparison. imo the offense and defense trees were underpowered compared to the util tree b4 the remake and now all 3 trees are pretty even in terms of benefits anyways gonna be super fun being able to go 21 in offense with mages :> | ||
Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On November 14 2011 15:45 Navi wrote: offense tree is so much better than b4 lethality and deadliness' gold values have gone up a bunch, and that 10% arpen is gonna be sweet There's flat arpen too :D I think most junglers will still go 9 in utility for Runic Affinity. I'm liking the defensive tree a lot though for junglers. Mercenary+Veteran's Scars + Summoner's Resolve + Juggernaut is going to make tanky junglers great. Anyone have an idea for a good shaco build for the new patch? I was thinking something like this?: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-2-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-3-0-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 Would Summoner's Resolve be worth switching with Executioner? For Shaco I mean. | ||
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On November 14 2011 23:36 Sabin010 wrote: I can still see 21 utility being stong on junglers. The gank xp mastery is going to make you snowball harder, and you're going to have an xp advantage over enemy junglers who don't go 21 in utility. There is also that fact you're getting cdr on the smite and you can be efficient at counter jungling. I know I get away with 21 utility as Feedlesticks now, and can honestly see him being able to counter jungle efficiently. If fiddle can hit 5 before an enemy jungler hits 4 Fiddle should be able to fear and drain harder than the enemy jungler can hit him. Just theory crafting though as most junglers tend to die when they get caught in enemy forest. The assist xp mastery is terrible. A perfect counter-gank bottom resulting in three kills/assists would only yield a bonus of 120 exp, less than the value of one mini-golem. In that scenario you're not going to snowball because you had the exp mastery, you're going to snowball because you got a triple kill/assist bottom including the enemy jungler (and possibly a free dragon as a result). You get away with 21 utility on Fiddlesticks now because anything past 9-12 in offense/defense is objectively terrible for AP characters/junglers. With the new masteries this is no longer true. There's no scenario where a level 5 Fiddlesticks is going to encounter a level 3 jungler unless the other jungler screwed up royally, no matter what masteries you take. Almost all of the most popular junglers right now are going to hit level 4 before you do, let alone level 5. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:05 NeoIllusions wrote: The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it. EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of. Anyone know how indomitable and toughen skin work? Does it reduce incoming damage before or after resists and penetration is counted? | ||
Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:21 Slayer91 wrote: What? Supports are fucking crazy strong early game before everyone gets items. It's champions that are not supports being played as supports that are usually garbage at all stages of the game. The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of. In terms of covering your lane, you have a hard time before finishing up your philo for sustain, aswell as providing wards and perhaps building either a hog or grabbing some drings. I feel like when the laning phase ends, your role becomes much more important in terms of map control anyways. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote: I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it. EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy. I can't believe people are seriously excited by the starting gold mastery. It has terrible gold/mastery point value, even for a tier 1 mastery (1 AD = 41, 1 AP = 21.75, 2 Armor = 33.3, 2 MRes = 33.3). Why in fuck's name would anyone care about it? What does it even open up for you in terms of starting items? On November 15 2011 00:57 locodoco wrote: imo the offense and defense trees were underpowered compared to the util tree b4 the remake and now all 3 trees are pretty even in terms of benefits anyways gonna be super fun being able to go 21 in offense with mages :> I agree that they were a little UP compared to the util tree, but it wasn't anything staggering. After the changes, the balance is way out of whack IMO, utility got very seriously destroyed. Movespeed and Greed's value/point got cut in half, meditation now requires you to get expanded mind (ZZZZZ), you can't get sorcery and awareness without going over 21 points in util, etc etc etc. The tree got murdered, while Defensive and Offensive got considerably buffed. Only reason people have to go deep in Utility is because 15% SS CDR is still retarded as shit. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all... | ||
Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Vibes
Germany144 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
Tyrran
France777 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote: I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it. EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy. If you're not willing to give up greed, buy gold Quints, and put your masteries point elsewhere. I have to agree with Neo and Smash on that utility is vastly inferior than defense for support. And to retake Smash argument : 1 point in Wealth = 20 gold. 1 point in Mental Force = 1 AP = 22 gold. Also mercenary (defense) can give you 8 gold per assist (for each point in it). Make 3 assists and its more valuable than Wealth. And i dont think support are that weak early game. Taric stun imba early game, Sona damage imba early game, Soraka sustain imba early game. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:31 Tyrran wrote: If you're not willing to give up greed, buy gold Quints, and put your masteries point elsewhere. I have to agree with Neo and Smash on that utility is vastly inferior than defense for support. And to retake Smash argument : 1 point in Wealth = 20 gold. 1 point in Mental Force = 1 AP = 22 gold. Also mercenary (defense) can give you 8 gold per assist (for each point in it). Make 3 assists and its more valuable than Wealth. And i dont think support are that weak early game. Taric stun imba early game, Sona damage imba early game, Soraka sustain imba early game. The thing is, give up gold quints and put something else there. And read my post again, it's not in terms of the champions being played as support, it's the SUPPORT ROLE that is weak in early game. | ||
birchy
United Kingdom68 Posts
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote: hi5 Smash. Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all... Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on starting lanes than an extra 3 AD on AA. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:29 Sponkz wrote: Why would you ever go 21 off/def with any current fotm supports? http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-0-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 just seems better than 21 util IMO. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:39 ManyCookies wrote: Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on a low level lane than an extra 3 AD on AA. or two? how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions? so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion? really? | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:41 Mogwai wrote: or two? how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions? so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion? really? If you're left with 25-30 gold (and wait 2-3 seconds at spawn for the 5 gold), then the extra 40 gold would net two health potions. It's hardly a "MUST GET THIS NOW" mastery, I agree. But it is significantly more useful than a straight gold/utility analysis shows. On November 15 2011 01:45 Sabin010 wrote: He's going to wait on the pool for 10 clicks, and show up to lane with many more potions because of all the gold quints greed, and wealth. Are you kidding? I'm just going to buy 14 Health Potions at the start, then AFK for two creep waves to get 20 Health Potions. | ||
mordek
United States12704 Posts
14/15/1 I passed up Runic Affinity which is probably the biggest thing missing and you can't go 14/9/Runic Affinity. I like the movespeed mastery in the def tree because WW is an auto-healer and normally above 70%. Really not sure how to put points between tier 1 and Initiator. Bladed Armor is really good and arm mres are good stats but other than that... not sure. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I think the only people going for runic affinity on junglers are going to be ones who really want the movement speed as well because of how ridiculously better offense and defense trees are now. They made swiftness less efficient now. Another one of riots oversteps I think. Utility too strong? BUFF THE SHIT OF OUT OTHER TREES NERF THE SHIT OUT OF UTILITY! | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat? | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:39 Mogwai wrote: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-0-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 just seems better than 21 util IMO. I was thinking more of a dip down into def tree for movement speed to help roaming like this. With CV being nerfed, I think added mobility will be at a premium now. To think Janna can start with 8% movement speed at level 1 without items or buffs is crazy. Someone like Alistar or support Blitz could make pretty good use of this as well for roaming purposes. I don't like sacrificing greed for juggernaut on support, tho. The only thing I could see giving that up for is getting Mercenary for roaming and build like this. The lost gold from greed can be made up through assists, since they give just as much extra gold as kills with this mastery. That can be a source of extra ward money instead of greed. Mobility boots alistar with movement speed quints and these talents would be pretty damned scary. | ||
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
Edit: I do agree with you btw, especially since Greed is also pretty bad when these changes come tbh. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote: Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time. Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat? I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far" I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers). I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:29 Mogwai wrote: I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far" I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers). I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it. Real semantics arguer... fk Smash. Yes, you obviously spec for your role but come on. Presence of the Master vs Havoc or Tenacity? Ok, my point. And I agree with your last statement. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:09 Seuss wrote: You need 1 assist every 80 seconds for Mercenary to be as good as Greed point for point. It's really a terrible mastery that only gets worse as you get better at the game. Doesn't need to be as good as greed does, just needs to recoup some lost gold for not having it. It only costs 3 points for mercenary, whereas greed costs 4 points. The way I look at it, if I am roaming and go 1-0-3 at 12 minutes or something, then I am at least getting 100 gold for my efforts (I don't think this is an unreasonable scoreline for aggressive roaming, but not at all worth it for passive lane babysitting). Greed would give me 150 gold in that same timeframe with 3 talent points. It is worse, yeah, but you still need some extra gold. I don't know if the CDR in defensive tree would be worth it if you are going all the way down to 21 anyways. To be honest, when I play alistar, I only need my combo to initiate. I don't need cdr to initiate. Passive spammy champs like sona/soraka/janna would benefit, though. | ||
volcryn
United States149 Posts
First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3? http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On November 14 2011 19:26 TheYango wrote: Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger. Didn't they state they balanced all the masteries out gold wise with the remake? | ||
billy5000
United States865 Posts
although i would probably just save it so i can get a gp5 item faster | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 03:13 Woony wrote: Didn't they state they balanced all the masteries out gold wise with the remake? they did state that, but it's a lie. utility tree got dumped on, simple gold analysis has most of Utility at undervalued compared to offensive and defensive. | ||
Woony
Germany6657 Posts
I mean just compare 21/0/9 vs. 9/0/21 for AP carries ~ 200 mana @ 18 0,5% movementspeed 3% spellvamp 5% EXP 6% CDR 15% Summoner CDR VS 1,5% damage 18 AP @ 18 5% AP (!!!!) 6% damage @ targets below 40% | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-0-4-1-4-0-1-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
... ... tower damage on Garen..? 1.5% damage on anyone..? MPEN over ARPEN... ON GAREN!? why are people so bad at just thinking about their specs in this game.....? | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I think mpen mastery combines well with executioner to make sure those ultimates finish the target when you need them to. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On November 15 2011 03:58 Slayer91 wrote: Well 1.5% damage is probably better than crit and crit damage on garen since so much of your damage is your spin and ultimate. I'd get something like this; http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 you know your spin crits right? | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Also health regen is debateable, kinda feel like new veteran scars is good lategame, never really feel like garens needs the sustain. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-1-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
If you get Brutalizer ghostblade and another brutalizer you have a flat 41 penetration before the 10%. even if the guy is at 100 armour you're only shredding an additional 6 armour from the mastery. | ||
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:13 EquilasH wrote: You mean 160 seconds right? Edit: I do agree with you btw, especially since Greed is also pretty bad when these changes come tbh. You're right, I was thinking gp5 when it's gp10. That's significantly less bad, but it's still bad. I'd much rather have Honor Guard or Enlightment hands down. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:11 Sabin010 wrote: Neo I changed it to run the arpen 10%, but early game the flat 6 is going to be better than 10% until they reach 60+ armour. You realize they stack right? Getting flat armour pen doesn't mean the 10% is useless. The crit works only on the bonus damage while the armour pen works on both and is unquestionably better. On November 15 2011 04:11 Sabin010 wrote: Neo I changed it to run the arpen 10%, but early game the flat 6 is going to be better than 10% until they reach 60+ armour. If you get Brutalizer ghostblade and another brutalizer you have a flat 41 penetration before the 10%. even if the guy is at 100 armour you're only shredding an additional 6 armour from the mastery. Yeah. And if you get 5 infinity edges that crit damage looking real good! Of course, 100 armour being the level of AD carry with wriggles, surely going to be nobody tankier than that in a top lane! | ||
BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote: So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10% First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3? http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 9-12-9 Is something I want to try on my junglers, get the armor pen, get the defensive stats + the DBC, and get the runic in utility but idk, going down to 21 is just really powerful since that final slot is so good and things get pretty good on the way down. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape. | ||
Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote: the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour. 10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape. You're really, really getting points for all the wrong reasons... Crit Chance because you can crit during spin? Magic Pen for Ulti and Sunfire Cape? How is either of those better than ArPen on a bruiser? AS does seems worthless on Garen but if it's a prereq to 10% ArPen, it's suddenly more worth it than the Crit stats. | ||
billy5000
United States865 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:40 billy5000 wrote: irelia http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 +1 This 9/21/0 is a lot stronger than the current 9/21/0 I currently run on Irelia. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:20 BlueBird. wrote: 9-12-9 Is something I want to try on my junglers, get the armor pen, get the defensive stats + the DBC, and get the runic in utility but idk, going down to 21 is just really powerful since that final slot is so good and things get pretty good on the way down. Yeah I was just looking at this - not just for junglers. Theres really good reason for going 9 points in each tree Offense - Spell pen / armour pen Defense - veteran's scars / Bladed Armour utility - buff duration And then some really good 3-pt masteries at tier 3 (Havoc, Evasion, Transmutation). I think we might see a lot more 9-9-9 + 3. At least for less focussed characters - the top of the defence and offence trees expecially have some really nice options. But Id consider going 9-9-12 on say Ryze since he doesnt benefit as much from AP (and he'll get maybe 5-10 ap out of archmage) and extra health and spell vamp would be really good. Also, would there ever be a reason to take Vigor/Meditation? They seem to me to be strictly worse than the alternatives. On November 14 2011 16:10 NeoIllusions wrote: For Ryze... Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful) Def tree: Health and Resists Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1 However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree. Just saw this, I guess Ryze has been discussed a lot - but why would you take Vigor over Veteran's Scars/Durability? | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote: the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour. 10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape. You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen. 10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up. Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank. In other news, what do you guys think for pheonix udyr? THE FASTEST DEER http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-1-3-0-4-0-2-1-0-0-0-3-2-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 THE GOLD FARMING DEER http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-3-3-3-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 LOL LETS CLEAR JUNGLE ASAP AND FARM RAGEBLADE DEER (okay this might be troll) http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Also, I think heavy offense tree is going to help out tiger udyr. You can also do some stuff like dorans blade start I reckon because Q E Q combo with dorans is going to do crazy fucking damage. The only reason the gold farming deer build is in question is because you get fucking ridiculous amounts of assists compared to kills on pheonix udyr and utility blows balls. The flat mana isn't bad because you back so much as a jungler and you can't reasonable get the mana regen any more. Also, if flash gets nerfed to shit that it's only viable to get it with the mastery and 21 utlity cause the cd is going to be EVEN longer, I'm thinking cleanse/smite might seem like a crazy stupid seeming idea but might be viable. You already have fucking crazy MS with initator+swiftness+movement quints+BEAR STANCE+possible FoN/Zeal/Trinity that cleansing exhausts/general CC might be just as effective for catching people/getting away and generally probably works better in teamfights and cd is crazy short compared to flash. Removing debuffs might be very good against certain champions as well. At the very least it removes those gay exhausts when you try to gank someone. The whole offense tree seems to suck dick on pheonix udyr though, which is kinda sad. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:43 Treadmill wrote: Yeah I was just looking at this - not just for junglers. Theres really good reason for going 9 points in each tree Offense - Spell pen / armour pen Defense - veteran's scars / Bladed Armour utility - buff duration And then some really good 3-pt masteries at tier 3 (Havoc, Evasion, Transmutation). I think we might see a lot more 9-9-9 + 3. At least for less focussed characters - the top of the defence and offence trees expecially have some really nice options. But Id consider going 9-9-12 on say Ryze since he doesnt benefit as much from AP (and he'll get maybe 5-10 ap out of archmage) and extra health and spell vamp would be really good. Actually for junglers defence tree looks really really good, especially if you don't need the experience mastery. Would there ever be a reason to take Vigor/Meditation? Top lane may want Vigor for sustainability. It'll just compound with Philo Stone build, vamp skills, etc. Meditation isn't worth it compared to Swiftness, even AP mids, I'd take Swiftness. Maybe Mediation on Supports but that's about it. | ||
Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:27 Sandster wrote: Except pretty much everyone worth a damn shows up to lane with 60-70+ armor against Garen at level 1, and it only goes up from there. I've been curious about this sort of armor numbers for a while. If you just rely on seals, you get: 15 base + 18 (cloth armor) + 6 (masteries) + 13 (seals) = 52 armor. For the other runes you have Quints, (+13) Marks, (+8) and Glyphs (+6). How many runes is it really worth it to devote to armor? Granted, the numbers on quints are quite decent but to get 70+ it seems like you have to devote 3/4 of your rune page to that one stat. Is it standard to have a rune page like that? | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote: 10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up. no it doesn't. multiple sources of % penetration have historically stacked multiplicatively, I see no reason why this would be different. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:21 Slayer91 wrote: The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of. It opens up the least new options for supports because no support these days is starting with anything less than 2 wards and at least 1 pot, tying down at least 185 gold. Literally the only item option that it opens up is starting Cloth, and I'm pretty sure that Cloth is weaker than Faerie Charm anyway because of how Faerie builds to Philo. New item options are only as good as the stat improvements they give you over old item starts. The improvement of Doran's + pot over other starting item options on non-supports is not worth 6 mastery points when 6 mastery points gets you insane stuff like 1 point Lethality. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now. Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm. | ||
Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote: Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong. With LW and 10% arpen, your targets have 54% remaining armor, so you have 46% arpen (ignoring flat arpen). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote: So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10% First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3? http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 I think 9/12/9 is reasonable for junglers that don't care about crit. On physical damage autoattack junglers, Lethality is too insane right now at one point. IMO it outshines Executioner as the capstone mastery of the Offense tree. Turn a 3 point mastery that was already extremely good into a 1 point mastery? What was Riot thinking... On November 15 2011 04:34 NeoIllusions wrote: You're really, really getting points for all the wrong reasons... Crit Chance because you can crit during spin? Magic Pen for Ulti and Sunfire Cape? How is either of those better than ArPen on a bruiser? AS does seems worthless on Garen but if it's a prereq to 10% ArPen, it's suddenly more worth it than the Crit stats. Personally I would get the ArPen and crit. Lethality is so efficient at 1 point that it's still good for someone who only gets incidental crit from Atma's. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote: Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong. And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now. Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm. Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem. It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote: Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong. And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now. Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm. ... ... multiplicative the other way. like 40% pen they have 60% armor left 10% more pen only pens on that last 60% = 6% 46% pen. like, void staff + old archaic mastery was 40% + 15% = 49%. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:02 NeoIllusions wrote: Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem. It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point. I had no idea how much XP 40 was, I just assumed they made it useful. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote: You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen. 10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up. Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank. I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:01 TheYango wrote: I think 9/12/9 is reasonable for junglers that don't care about crit. On physical damage autoattack junglers, Lethality is too insane right now at one point. IMO it outshines Executioner as the capstone mastery of the Offense tree. Turn a 3 point mastery that was already extremely good into a 1 point mastery? What was Riot thinking... Except its not exactly a 1- point mastery. Its more like a 5-point mastery that gets you 4% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Its still good though, but I think that if you were just looking at deadliness on its own it maybe wouldn't be worth it, so you have to put points into a less-valuable mastery to get Lethality. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:06 Sabin010 wrote: I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs. Why would you want sunfire atmas over warmogs atmas? Whatever damage you get from sunfire is outshined by the AD from warmogs. Health is really good on garen because of courage and if you're getting force of nature then you have to appreciate the regen from warmogs is almost as much. If you get LW you have so much arpen that getting more physical damage is better than the 35 magic damage per second and it scales with the crit on your spin better as well. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:04 Mogwai wrote: Pantheon gonna hit so hard when you're sub 15% now, lol. Trynd gonna love his 21 Off even more now too. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:06 Sabin010 wrote: I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs. Ok...and 10% ArPen will give you vastly more damage when spinning than 10% MPen. Like, 10% MPen is going to boost something that does 35 damage per second by about 7%. 10% ArPen is going to apply the same multiplicative benefit to something that does 350 damage per second. How is this even a question? On November 15 2011 05:06 Treadmill wrote: Except its not exactly a 1- point mastery. Its more like a 5-point mastery that gets you 4% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Its still good though, but I think that if you were just looking at deadliness on its own it maybe wouldn't be worth it, so you have to put points into a less-valuable mastery to get Lethality. I would worry about that more if Deadliness wasn't worth 50 gold/point, meaning that even without the benefit of opening Lethality, it's already one of the more efficient masteries in the entire tree. For Deadliness->Lethality to not be worth their insane point-efficiency, you basically have to not want crit AT ALL. Even AD casters that get Atma's probably end up with enough crit and make enough autoattacks for it to be worthwhile. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 04:42 NeoIllusions wrote: +1 This 9/21/0 is a lot stronger than the current 9/21/0 I currently run on Irelia. You'd really skip veteran scars for the health regen and evasion? Man, everyone really hates that. I can see the health regen if you're doing dorans shield instead of philo and you kinda want a bit more, but evasion I'd only use against like full AoE teamcomps. I'm already questioning the -1.5% damage sometimes, it feels so small when I usually prefered to get 0/9/21 on my solo tops because the 4% damage from defense was nice but the rest of the tree was so trash. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:13 Slayer91 wrote: You'd really skip veteran scars for the health regen and evasion? Man, everyone really hates that. Mostly because people haven't seen the math where new Veteran's Scars is the most efficient itemizable stat mastery across all 3 trees by a margin of like 20 gold. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
and you have to spend 4 extra points to get there. it's still really good though, I dunno why people are obsessing over 3 hp regen, each point in SoS started out at like over 1 HP/5 and grew quite a bit over laning, even on low mana pool characters. 1 hp/5/point isn't nearly good enough. SoS was just good because it was A LOT better than 1hp/5/point. | ||
Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:02 NeoIllusions wrote: Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem. It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point. Wouldn't the skill make like... 1000x more sense if it scaled ## bonus xp / level? By designing it to be a flat amount, it inherently gets less useful as the game length continues. So the design philosophy (one would assume) must be to balance the mastery towards a point in the game... But then they give so little xp that it's not relevant to begin with. If it was OP, that would at least generate more interesting strategic decisions in game - like it being more beneficial for the team to have jungle gank bot (assuming support takes Sage) over perhaps a more advantageous lane. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:19 Mogwai wrote: not counting the intangible ones. and you have to spend 4 extra points to get there. it's still really good though, I dunno why people are obsessing over 3 hp regen, each point in SoS started out at like over 1 HP/5 and grew quite a bit over laning, even on low mana pool characters. 1 hp/5/point isn't nearly good enough. SoS was just good because it was A LOT better than 1hp/5/point. The 4 points to get there aren't bad either. 1.5 hp/level breaks even with the "good" flat stat masteries (e.g. 1st tier offense ones that are worth 42 gold/point) on gold value at level 10. If you consider that when we look at runes, that's about where we expect good per-level runes to break even (e.g. MR vs. MR/level), that means that the HP/level mastery's gold value is where it should be, and is better than the armor/MR masteries. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
The reason they are so efficient is that regen is so bad lategame so I feel like minimizing the amount I get from runes/masteries when the regen I get from items becomes basically free on my items I build out of it. | ||
Firesilver
United Kingdom1190 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Wealth and juggernaut seem interesting. You might see a doran's resurgence if people can buy a health pot. Otherwise, most of the masteries seem to be really nerfed. This'll only make the game more boring for people who aren't level 30 yet like me. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:30 Firesilver wrote: Really liking the new mastery pages, can't wait for them to be implemented. They're so good my graphics card is going to explode. Oh wait it already did. I don't know why my PC still works for firefox and shit though, what a beast. Also, I always felt like AP carries where way out of whack strong and AD carries kinda felt meh if they aren't super fed, so I like the change. There are tools like randuins and frozen heart and ninja tabi to deal with LW AD carries but you were always shit out of luck with AP carries with void staff. You still are but they'll be a little less brutal I guess. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:08 Slayer91 wrote: Why would you want sunfire atmas over warmogs atmas? Whatever damage you get from sunfire is outshined by the AD from warmogs. Health is really good on garen because of courage and if you're getting force of nature then you have to appreciate the regen from warmogs is almost as much. If you get LW you have so much arpen that getting more physical damage is better than the 35 magic damage per second and it scales with the crit on your spin better as well. With Atma's Warmogs adds 28 AD while the Sunfire adds 35 magic dps and 9 AD. So warmogs adds 39 damage to the spin, while sunfire is adding 12 to the spin and 35 in magic damage per second. Unless im missing something sunfire is giving more damage faster and for less money. Last whisper is the last item purchased and if you're playing Garen you really want to end the game before everybody is lvl 18 and chugging triple pots. | ||
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I don't know why you would get the MPen mastery, even if you like the CDR. It'll translate into like 2 extra damage per tick from Sunfire Cape--which is less than the Judgment damage you'll get from the health masteries in defense. You could also probably get Runic Affinity instead of the defense stuff if you really want it, but that's harder to compare. On November 15 2011 05:50 Sabin010 wrote: Something about having a built in cleanse from slows with e, a movement speed boost with q, the fact if some one is going to melee you they're going to eat silence and a lot of dps from e, and a built in regen steroid to keep your health high makes me think the 1000 hp is just over kill on defense. I think Garen is to be played as a burster and not a guy trying to get focused in the middle of everything. Then why are you building Sunfire/Atmas instead of BT stacking? There is more than one way to itemize Garen, but at least be consistent with the way you're doing it. Either you build him raw damage or you build him tanky. But you don't build him tanky and go "he should be a burster!" when you made the conscious decision NOT to build him that way. | ||
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
How would you build him? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:55 Sabin010 wrote: The Mpen is for his ultimate. If some one stacks 100 mr you're going to need to have them way below 1/4 hp to use R for a kill. 10% MPen is like a 4% damage increase vs. 100 MR targets. Not hugely compelling on a champ with no other sources of magic damage. | ||
Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On November 15 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote: Garen: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I don't know why you would get the MPen mastery, even if you like the CDR. It'll translate into like 2 extra damage per tick from Sunfire Cape--which is less than the Judgment damage you'll get from the health masteries in defense. You could also probably get Runic Affinity instead of the defense stuff if you really want it, but that's harder to compare. Then why are you building Sunfire/Atmas instead of BT stacking? There is more than one way to itemize Garen, but at least be consistent with the way you're doing it. Either you build him raw damage or you build him tanky. But you don't build him tanky and go "he should be a burster!" when you made the conscious decision NOT to build him that way. It depends upon the flow of the game. Alot of times I get hex drinker, brutalizer, dorans blade, ghost blade and boots, but the game is over at that point. I mean sunfire plays more for an later mid game while there is no question warmogs scales for the late late game. If I think we can end it in the mid game the ghost blade and another brutalizer with boots hexdrinker and some dorans blades and start popping elixers. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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volcryn
United States149 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote: How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable. last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game | ||
Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote: How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable. 21/9 looks really appealing. You don't need Bladed Armor, and the extra health from Veteran's Scars is really good for Noc. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:16 volcryn wrote: last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him. | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne. | ||
volcryn
United States149 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:28 TheYango wrote: Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him. which is why I posted it as a thought and wanted feedback, as im trying to find the alternatives | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:28 Chairman Ray wrote: Ok, I have decided on my nocturne build: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne. Noc also is a lot less dependant on blue buff than other junglers so I agree you can sacrifice the buff duration. Would it be reasonable, though, to go cut Executioner for Bladed Armour? I could even see something like 15/15/0 on Noc: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-4-0-0-1-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 With the last point in Havoc could go a variety of places (maybe to the summoner spell buff of your second summoner). Edit: I think it'd come down to whether you think the arm pen or the movement speed is better. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/ | ||
STS17
United States1817 Posts
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote: The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening) Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/ Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less Something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-2-0-3-0-1-3-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote: Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen. You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery. | ||
STS17
United States1817 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote: The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen. You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery. So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem | ||
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Personally I would take the 1% damage reduction just because it's there and happens to synergize with the rest of the masteries whereas merc doesn't. | ||
Xirt
Scotland52 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote: So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem The problem is that you get the gold too late in the game for it to make any difference. If you get good value out of it you were going to win anyway. | ||
rigwarl
United States540 Posts
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote: Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall. I think the reason is that defence and offence got so much better that utility is relatively much weaker. | ||
volcryn
United States149 Posts
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote: Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall. because power level in both offense and defense skyrocketed in comparison (more signs of the continuing power creep =( | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote: So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds. | ||
mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
0/21/9 Swain: Considering running cleanse/heal if they do indeed buff cleanse back to removing ignite/exhaust. Probably go something similar on Ryze since he also tends to be in the middle of fights. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-2-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-2-1-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 21/9/0 Karthus/Annie/Cass: Not much diff between going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, just depends how reliant on blue I am. 30/0/0 Jax: Cause going 30 pts in a tree sounds badass. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Don't know why this extra space under my post so im editing this in to not look foolish. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote: So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem 1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters. 2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of. On November 15 2011 11:14 Gooey wrote: Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds. What? It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game. | ||
BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
In low lvl/normals you see lots of kills/game which is the only place such masteries will work. | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 15 2011 11:17 mrgerry wrote: So I've finally given these a look and will probably just end up reiterating what other people already found out, with that said this is what I'll initially run on the heroes i commonly solo q with: 0/21/9 Swain: Considering running cleanse/heal if they do indeed buff cleanse back to removing ignite/exhaust. Probably go something similar on Ryze since he also tends to be in the middle of fights. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-2-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-2-1-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 21/9/0 Karthus/Annie/Cass: Not much diff between going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, just depends how reliant on blue I am. 30/0/0 Jax: Cause going 30 pts in a tree sounds badass. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Don't know why this extra space under my post so im editing this in to not look foolish. I think for swain, you still need to run either ghost or flash, since he really doesn't have much of a gap closer or initiate. He is kinda weak until you get Rylia's on him during the mid game. Cleanse would definitely be a standard on him now, though. CC removal and immunity would be a premium on him. Cleanse/Flash or Cleanse/Ghost would be me go to if I were to play swain. That general talent setup would be fine (with preference choices in T1 Utility). | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 15 2011 11:22 TheYango wrote: 1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters. 2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of. What? It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game. If you are playing a super passive lane, yeah. It's not going to work on every champion, or every playstyle. I said it earlier how it would be best running it on an aggressive support with roaming capabilities, like an alistar or blitz, even. If I see that all of the champions and lane matchups are going to sit on their ass and farm for the first 20 minutes of the game and only having there be 2-3 hero kills total with only 1 dragon kill, then of course I wouldn't do this. All kills don't have to come from duo lane, nor are you chained permanently to that lane. 4 kills might be too much, so even if it is just 2 (let's say 1 kill lane and 1 kill dragon), 150g missing that early on might not be as bad, and you can make that up with the 2 measly kills (assuming 75g from 2 assists each or something like that). If you are on a support champ that is strong in the mid/early game like alistar anyways, you will need to be the one getting the kills to compete against a sona/janna later on, who don't necessarily need early kills. The extra money you get from assists in the mid game, from 12-22 will get close to matching greed for the mid-game interval. Once again, not at all intending for this to be run on an AD carry hugging babysitter. I'm not stupid ^^. The defense tree helps you be more aggressive early on with the added movement speed, HP, damage reduction, and crowd control reduction, and I'd rather have the ability to earn extra money in the game than 1.5% dmg reduction. I'm not trying to say "go mercenary because it's better than greed". | ||
mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways. | ||
tissue
Malaysia441 Posts
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chocolatebunny
301 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote: Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots? No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways. what about boots and 5 pots O.O some people wait in base 15 seconds to get 4th pot with boots. now, they can wait 10 seconds and get 2 more pots with boots. idk. that was the first thing that came to mind when i say the additional 40 gold. | ||
Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote: Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots? No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways. I'd say everyone who would start Doran's Ring should take 21 offense for insane stats instead. | ||
rigwarl
United States540 Posts
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On November 16 2011 01:32 rigwarl wrote: What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive? If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 16 2011 01:39 Woony wrote: If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc. Havoc breaks even with Vampirism on gold value (assuming your DPS is primarily autoattacks--which is a fair assumption if you're considering Vampirism at all) at about 227 AD--a reasonable enough point to make it personal preference, IMO. | ||
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows | ||
broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote: Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good. E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows what happened to dodge?? | ||
Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
They took out nimbleness. | ||
LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
RIP | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-0-0-0-3-1-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 or http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-1-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 ? (Can't decide exactly where the defense tree stuff should go!) | ||
necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
Should i go for the magic pen is it too far down? Getting used to this new trees is kind of rough ~_~ | ||
Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On November 16 2011 23:19 necrosed wrote: Are they refunding people who have dodge seals? I mean, they're pretty expensive and useless now that we don't have nimbleness. Dodge isn´t obsolete just yet. It still is the best defense against autoattacks if you have >100 Armor. We get a refund once dodge literally stops existing. I´d say 0/21/9 or 1/21/8 since Singed isn´t about the DPS but about the trolling and MS is better for that. | ||
freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
with cloth armor+5 pots i could do wraithjack+stealing their red with smite+our wolves, +wraiths, +red + golems + blue +wolves +wraiths without going back wtf i didnt even proc alpha strike | ||
Prinate
United States182 Posts
There are a few people talking about gold cost for masteries, but I haven't seen a real list. Plus, I expect quite a few people don't fully understand the concept. So below is a quick explanation and the basic stats for most masteries. Masteries listed as N/A or ?? mean that either there isn't a good comparison, value is too variable, or I simply didn't want to do the math. If any mathcrafters have suggestions or see an error, let me know. Explanation: The simplest way to look at the value of the masteries is with replacement/opportunity cost. The idea being that if you do not take mastery X, what would it cost you in the game to make up for that stat (assuming you want it). An example: Say that I know I want AD on my champion. In game, the simplest/easiest direct way to get the stat is a long sword. 10 AD, 415 gold. This means that each point of AD is worth 41.5 gold. So each point in the Brute Force (+1AD) is equivalently worth 41.5 gold. Yes, there are more efficient purchases later in the game, but we are looking for direct comparisons when possible. Stats with ** mean they had to be derived from an item with more than 1 stat, but this is still the most direct source that I can find and still calculates. Some stats can't be derived at all. Stats with ^^ mean they were derived from replacing the mastery benefit with runes. This is... fuzzy math at best. Offense: T1 Summoner's Wrath: N/A T1 Brute Force (+1/2/3 Attack Damage): 41.5g/pt T1 Mental Force (+1/2/3/4 Ability Power): 21.75g/pt T1 Butcher (basic atk: 2/4 bonus damage to min/mon): ?? T2 Alacrity (+1.5/3/4.5/6% attack speed): 42g/pt T2 Sorcery (+1/2/3/4% Cooldown reduction): 32.2g** /pt T2 Demolitionist (Basic atk deal 10 bonus damage to towers): N/A T3 Deadliness (+1/2/3/4% Crit chance): 50g/pt T3 Weapon Expertise (+10% ARpen): 157.g** /pt T3 Arcane Knowledge (+10% MRpen): 193g** /pt T3 Havoc (Inc damage by .5/1/1.5%): ?? T4 Lethality (10% crit dmg): N/A (Unless compared to furor runes. IE math doesn't work) T4 Vampirism (1/2/3% Life steal): 37.5g/pt T4 Blast (0.25/0.5/0.75/1 AP/lvl = 4.5/9/13.5/18 AP at 18): At lvl 1, 5.4375g/pt. At lvl 6, 32.625g/pt. At lvl 12, 65.25g/pt. At lvl 18, 97.875g/pt [Per AP calcs] T5 Sunder (+2/4/6 Arpen): N/A (Item calc w/ Brutalizer doesn't work. Could compare ARpen runes) T5 Archmage (Inc AP 1.25/2.5/3.75/5%) At 50 AP: .625 bonus AP, 13.6g/pt. At 100 AP: 1.25 ap, 27.2g/pt. At 200 AP: 2.5ap, 54.4g/pt. At 300AP: 3.75ap, 81.56g/pt. At 400ap: 108.75g/pt [Per AP rates, given at various levels, per point] T6 Executioner (Inc damage by 6% vs targets w/ <40% health): N/A Defense: T1 Summoner's Resolve: N/A T1 Resistance (+2/4/6 Mres): 33.3g/pt T1 Hardiness (+2/4/6 Armor): 33.3g/pt T1 Tough Skin (Reduces min/mon dmg by 1/ 2): ?? T2 Durability (+1.5/3/4.5/6 Health/lvl = 27/54/81/108 health at 18): At lvl 1: 4g/pt. At lvl 6: 23.76g/pt. At lvl 12: 47.52g/pt. At lvl 18: 71.28g/pt [Per health rates] T2 Vigor (+1/2/3 Hp5): 31.25g/pt (29g/pt compared to regrowth pendant) T3 Indomitable (Reduces inc damage by 1/ 2): ?? T3 Veteran's scars (+30 health): 79.17g/pt T3 Evasion (Reduces dmg by AOE by 1/2/3%): N/A T3 Bladed Armor (Returns 6 dmg against min/mon attacks): N/A T4 Siege Commander (Reduces armor of towers by 10): N/A T4 Initiator (Increases move speed by 1/2/3% when >70% health): Rune cost: 45.76g^^/pt . (Boots value default equivalent to ~21-23g/pt at base movement speed) T4 Enlightenment (+.15/.3/.45% CDR/lvl = 2.7/5.4/8.1% CDR at 18): At lvl 1: 4.83g**/pt. At lvl 6: 29g**/pt. At lvl 12: 58g**/pt. At lvl 18: 87g**/pt. T5 Honor Guard (Reduces dmg taken by .5/1/1.5%): N/A T5 Mercenary (Gain 8/16/24 gold per kill/assist): N/A T6 Juggernaut (Inc max health by 3%, reduces duration of disables by 10%): Utility: T1 Summoner's Insight: N/A T1 Good Hands (Reduces time spent dead by 4/7/10%): N/A T1 Expanded Mind (+4/8/12 mana/lvl = 72/144/216 mana at 18 or 4/7/10 energy): At lvl 1: 8g/pt. At lvl 6: 48g/pt. At lvl 12: 96g/pt. At lvl 18: 144g/pt. T1 Improved Recall: N/A T2 Swiftness (+.5/1/1.5/2% move speed): N/A (Could compare quints. Boots value default equivalent to ~21-23g/pt at base movement speed) T2 Meditation (+1/2/3 mp5): 60g/point (55.7g/pt compared to Meki Pendant) T2 Scout (Increase vision range of wards by 5%): N/A T3 Greed (.5/1/1.5/2 Gp10): 16.5g**/pt T3 Transmutation (+1/2/3% spell vamp): 22g**/pt T3 Runic Affinity (Duration inc of monster buff by 20%): N/A T4 Wealth (Increases starting gold by 20/40): N/A T4 Awareness (Increases exp gained by 1.25/2.5/3.75/5%): Rune cost: 51.48g^^/pt. 3 quint spots required to match opportunity (quints give 6%.) Used flat health quint as default value of quint spot. T4 Sage (Gain 40 bonus exp per kill/assist): N/A T5 Perseverance (Increases health/mana regen by 3/6/9%): N/A T5 Intelligence (+2/4/6% CDR): 64.4g** /pt T6 Mastermind (Reduces CD of summoner spells by 15%): N/A | ||
Awesomo
Netherlands206 Posts
![]() But i saved the shit out of those masteries. | ||
Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
@ above: it´s a bug in the display, not the stat allocation unfortunately. You can´t cheat yourself better stats ingame, illegal points are threated as unspend. | ||
freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote: I don't even know how i did this, ![]() But i saved the shit out of those masteries. OP i call abuse right there | ||
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
You can't value Wealth properly? Funneh. | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote: I don't even know how i did this, ![]() But i saved the shit out of those masteries. FIGURE IT OUT, I NEED A 30/30/30 PAGE! | ||
Gooey
United States944 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote: I don't even know how i did this, ![]() But i saved the shit out of those masteries. UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap... | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
jungle tryndamere is incredibly strong now, along with most of the junglers that favored offensive trees: pirate, lee sin, ww, kinda trundle, kinda noc, kinda udyr. for champs that need 6, like noc or ww, I'm getting it like almost 45 seconds faster with the bolstered neutral xp and mastery buffs. this is also with mostly old school rune setups, but I'm replacing previously needed arm/pen and armor with things like atk spd and dodge. times are still mostly hindered by small camp respawn timers. pretty sure you can jungle on whoever the fuck you want now. this is so much fucking work T_______T I've probably made 50 customs by now. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:14 Gooey wrote: UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap... Edit: Removing reproduction of this bug for now. PMing Moonbear instead. Don't want to publicize it. | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:22 Slayer91 wrote: Why do you bother making customs? Everyone gets the same talents so everyones going to get a similar enough benefit but obviously the weaker ones and the ones relying less on magic damage are going to do better. Just play games and have fun. wut? there has been a big change to neutral experience and damage outputs and runes roles. This leads to altered jungle routes which I'm trying to figure out. Champions that previously relied on sustained routes (using stonewall terminology cuz its most accurate) by doing small camps starting wolves then shopping before blue, may now be able to do a manlier route like ww by starting mini gol and small camping all the way through blue, and either shopping if needed or heading back to small gols after. this is why i custom. new mastery tree is incredibly game changing, in addition to the other patch fixes. edit: not to say I'm not having fun doing this, it's just a lot of work but exciting to find new routes at the same time. adds new life to literally every jungler. | ||
Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:56 spinesheath wrote: @Prinate: You can't value Wealth properly? Funneh. Glad to see this work is gonna lead to productive conversations. Hue hue hue... On November 17 2011 03:47 Unentschieden wrote: It´s misleading though since you spend mastery points on them, not gold. On top of that the Tier structure means that a given mastery only competes with equal and lower tiered mastery points, never higher ones. It's only misleading if you value the masteries by thinking this is the only method, which no one should (and you obviously don't). However it's still a valid argument to gauge the relative value of an attribute and assist people in choosing masteries. As for mastery points valued as gold, that's not misleading. Again, the value is in replacement/opportunity cost. If I don't take AD in my masteries but I know I'll need it in game, well how am I eventually going to get that AD? Gold. If I took something other than AD but have a goal to hit X AD, well then how far back did I just set myself? ~120 gold if I skipped brute force. Was what I took instead worth it? Well now I have a chart to help me consider such a thing... | ||
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:32 mOnion wrote: also why does the forum header say riot "plans" to buff neutral xp? Haven't they already done this? ![]() They did. This thread was just started before the official patch so people were still wondering how necessary the exp gain mastery will be. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
just me ranting about this shit | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 JBright wrote: They did. This thread was just started before the official patch so people were still wondering how necessary the exp gain mastery will be. Ah, ya that's totally obvious lol my bad | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441 just me ranting about this shit tl;dr, huehuehuehue | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441 just me ranting about this shit Phreak's response made me facepalm. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
Use ignite on blue golem when you're jungling, guys. | ||
Moda
Norway60 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:14 Gooey wrote: UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap... Am currently discussing it with others right now. Not sure what the cause of the bug is and what action will be taken. But it is being looked at. ![]() Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm... | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:51 Moda wrote: Turns out that the defencive masteries are pretty bad compared to the offensive and utility ones.. No, they're fine in comparison to utility. Offense is just stupidly ahead of the curve right now. On November 17 2011 05:53 MoonBear wrote: Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm... We could start by making Lethality a 3 point mastery again. It was already really good at 3 points (back when Havoc was terrible, Lethality was the real reason to go 21 offense). At 1 point it's just stupid. | ||
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:00 spinesheath wrote: Nononononono Phreak is right. Because Janna is the only tank in the game - and she usually doesn't get farm. "Tank" just doesn't really mean anything in the concept of a PvP arena game. The LoL community is just slow on catching on to that fact. | ||
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:08 TheYango wrote: "Tank" just doesn't really mean anything in the concept of a PvP arena game. The LoL community is just slow on catching on to that fact. Well, I'm pretty sure that you could look back 6+ months and find some posts where I say that this whole "tank" as a class thing is bullshit. And IF there is any tank in this game, it's Janna. I was talking about "peeling tanks" and "initiating tanks" and whatever. Obviously those terms are ugly so I wasn't even expecting a single person to pick them up... Similarly with "carry", btw. "Carries" can be divided into squishy/tanky ranged/melee physical/magic DPS/burst. Holy crap. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:11 spinesheath wrote: Well, I'm pretty sure that you could look back 6+ months and find some posts where I say that this whole "tank" as a class thing is bullshit. And IF there is any tank in this game, it's Janna. I was talking about "peeling tanks" and "initiating tanks" and whatever. Obviously those terms are ugly so I wasn't even expecting a single person to pick them up... Well, to be fair, I was arguing against you on the issue back then. I just changed my opinion on the issue at some point between then and now. ![]() | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
- Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played. - Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes. - Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP. | ||
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:18 TheYango wrote: Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples: - Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played. - Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes. - Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP. Amumu is a great anti-carry as long as you don't waste your Bandage to initiate. However, initiating by just straight up waddling into the enemy team requires balls and farm. | ||
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that. but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
So, you put in your typical 21 Defense. Let's say... this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-1-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Now, you put that third point into Honor Guard. You're now 22 in Defense. Then it lets you pull that 1 point out of Tough Skin. When you save the page, it gives you an empty error box. To see whether or not I actually had the stats for this page, I went into a game where I had 17 points in Defense and nothing else, with an empty runepage. At level 1, I had 506 HP, 23 armor, 36 MR, but only 300 movespeed and 0% CDR (Some other attempts had 302 movespeed. It seems inconsistent what it actually gives you the stats for, but it doesnt give you the stats for everything properly for sure..) TL;DR theres a bug that lets you have 21 defense with only 11 points in the first 3 tiers. Don't use it, you dont get the stats you think you're getting. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:34 PrinceXizor wrote: well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2. his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that. but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way. Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over. | ||
Shiv.
3534 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:53 Shiv. wrote: So what would you guys take if you played Vlad? I've been thinking good ol' 9/0/21 immediately, but 9/21/0 looks actually pretty cute as well. Your first thought should always be 21+/x/y with the new masteries. | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:18 TheYango wrote: Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples: - Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played. - Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played. - Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes. - Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP. you're reasoning for amumu not being played is a little off. amumu is by far the best tank in the game because of his huge ult, his ability to toss AFTER ult, and his passive constantly being stacked if you're not a horrible player. the problems are A) people don't know about his passive, B) he's easily counter jungled, and can't lane, and C) his huge problem which is his reliance on the other 4 players to do shit right. if you toss in and ult 4 people, that's great! but now you're in the midst of the entire enemy team, and if it's an awkward angle or your team wasn't positioned properly, you're gonna get bursted down. most straight up tanks that you listed just aren't played these days because they don't fit in with the current meta. the only place for anyone tanky is either top or jungle, and since the jungling is becoming faster and more counter heavy (at least S1), tanks only role is top really. also I don't agree that a tanks role is anticarry. like ever. an anticarry's role is anticarry. tanks should, imo, initiate well, and support defensively, and that's it. as long as you can initiate and keep people off your right clicker, all's good. | ||
Shiv.
3534 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:59 spinesheath wrote: Your first thought should always be 21+/x/y with the new masteries. It had been, but I feel like Vlad really needs the CDR badly. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
i'm not actually that mad at you, I'm just mad that of all the discussion points Phreak could respond to, he chose literally the least consequential of them to me. | ||
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
I'm not going to though. Phreak kinda seems like one of these people with a very superficial knowledge of the game... | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
? idgi | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:53 MoonBear wrote: Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm... Defensive stats have a relative discount to offensive ones since defense doesn´t provide farm. Thats also where the %reduction on CS comes from, to negate the discount without replacing all defense items. Guess what happend to the one pure defense HP item. That doesn´t mean that offense isn´t too good but it´ll always have more gold value. Phreak wasn´t adressing the goldvalue part though but the "Defense doesn´t feel like Defense". Soaking damage isn´t a role in this game but a means to an end. A champ that takes defense might do so because he wants to be a jungler so bladed armor and initiator makes sense. Shure it could simply negate all the extra damage the offense tree provides but that would be pretty boring wouldn´t it? I´m certain there will be some changes, especially regarding preserverance which feels like a stand in for "presence for the master" because I guess mastermind was supposed to be something else. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 07:20 mOnion wrote: I would imagine it's almost impossible to be a developer for a game, and skilled enough at that game to please the entire competitive community, who will always be divided on every fucking issue. If you can't please the competitive community, you could at least make the numbers sensible enough that when someone complains about them, you have a valid argument, rather than skirting the issue because the gold value equivalencies of the mastery trees are obviously fucked. | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On November 17 2011 07:25 TheYango wrote: If you can't please the competitive community, you could at least make the numbers sensible enough that when someone complains about them, you have a valid argument, rather than skirting the issue because the gold value equivalencies of the mastery trees are obviously fucked. Ya I agree, he really should have already had tons of data to present as a counter argument to the numbers mogwai came up with in just a few days. Honestly I'm taken aback that there's almost no evidence that riot did any sort of mathematical analysis on the numbers before just smashin' them in our face. | ||
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Are the new masteries perfect? No, tha'ts obvious. Let them have time, Riot has been fairly proactive in keeping the game balanced. I just suggest everyone just chills out for a bit. | ||
Niton
United States2395 Posts
On November 17 2011 07:54 wei2coolman wrote: I think people need to chill the fuck out. Obviously they're going to tweak the mastery page once they start getting more feedback. Are the new masteries perfect? No, tha'ts obvious. Let them have time, Riot has been fairly proactive in keeping the game balanced. I just suggest everyone just chills out for a bit. Because this is a tournament patch, we'll be making relatively smaller changes to the game. On November 17 2011 06:25 spinesheath wrote: Amumu is a great anti-carry as long as you don't waste your Bandage to initiate. However, initiating by just straight up waddling into the enemy team requires balls and farm. In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away. Nunu plays somewhat similar, but his kit is far more toward support than tank. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2011 08:14 Niton wrote: In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away. I said he was a mediocre anti-carry because while Malphite is indeed good for dealing with fed ranged AD, his kit is comparatively worthless for dealing with fed AP carries. | ||
Niton
United States2395 Posts
On November 17 2011 08:23 TheYango wrote: I said he was a mediocre anti-carry because while Malphite is indeed good for dealing with fed ranged AD, his kit is comparatively worthless for dealing with fed AP carries. Has the terminology of anti-carry changed? I've only ever seen the term anti-carry be used to described the ranged autoattacking AD carries. Usually what you're talking about is anti-caster. | ||
Shiv.
3534 Posts
On November 17 2011 08:58 Niton wrote: Has the terminology of anti-carry changed? I've only ever seen the term anti-carry be used to described the ranged autoattacking AD carries. Usually what you're talking about is anti-caster. Those are hypercarries. Anti-Carries are champs that are good at cleaning up carries. | ||
mOnion
United States5657 Posts
Irelia Xin Derp Akali Olaf etc I was under the assumption that an anti-carry was a champ that was good at ignoring CC and diving the big dmg, squishy champs, while having a kit or building tanky enough to not die, getting the fuck outta the fight (if low) and letting your own carry/other 3 players clean up. Irelia's the best example of an anti-carry imo. Build her tanky enough to not die, with a triforce for burst. Jump in, blow up ashe, heal heal heal ignore CC. In a higher level game where she's not stupid fed this is generally the extent of what she can do in a team fight, until later in the fight if your team's winning and she can hop back in towards the end of the fight for stuns and additional quick deeps. edit: lol we are so far off topic | ||
Niton
United States2395 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441 just me ranting about this shit o.o wow that was actually a good read... I don't think riot did as much math ._. | ||
brokor
Greece235 Posts
How come noone in riot has thought about PTR's. Generally every single game i have played with any competitive aspect at all has had Test Servers. From MMo's to RTS's even fucking DoTA in the sense that if you found smth that didnt satisfy you with the new patch you could play the approved,stable older one. If only LoL had a PTR server like SC2 before patches that make such huge differences. All these problems would be avoided and fanboys wouldnt have to resort to "riot always comes out on the good side in the end". I agree riot has rectified most imbalances and mistakes they have made during champion design or champion/item rebalance, but as a side-effect the game is regularly broken half the time. When Graves came out the game was unplayable hands down. they nerfed him 2 weeks later, nerfed him once again 2 weeks after that. Why wouldn't they introduce the champion in a secluded dedicated test server, so any volunteers could play? and leave the general population with the stable "balanced" version they have been playing. and after 1 week of testing, introduce it, but a bit changed. This concept could help riot in so many ways. Ofc it is possible they just dont care, they just wanna get the champions out to sell the double bundles quicker. alhough i doubt 1 week delay makes a huge diff. i am generally an easy person to talk and develop a dialogue, but in this case i don't see how anyone could argue against what i said. Sry for my english. PTR or allow us to play earlier versions, at least in custom games. i understand ladder ranking have to be based on current version but allow previous ones for custom play. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
They USED to have an actual ptr that got balance changes, but they destroyed it because champs kits would always get leaked, as would balance changes, which everyone would bitch about without actually being able to play. Of course, the trade off between sifting through BS and actually getting feedback from people who can play the game well definitely makes it seem as though they need to go back to the way it was. There is just NO way anyone at riot can play this game with any level of skill whatsoever. | ||
Ian Ian Ian
915 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/ Its pretty good imo, especially when you consider that you get it on ap carries and assassins. | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/ 6% damage is actually quite a bit, even if it's only vs >40% health targets I think they set the 40% because they want champions to be dealing more damage without buffing poke. | ||
Niton
United States2395 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/ Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced. | ||
dookudooku
255 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:37 Niton wrote: Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced. In practice it's arguably stronger than the old mastery. Characters that went 21 pts in offensive are usually AD carries, who don't deal big damage at the start of a teamfight. If you think about it, AD carries usually don't engage until one or several of the characters have been bursted down to low health, to avoid being insta-gibbed themselves. | ||
Flakes
United States3125 Posts
And it looks like we're done with it, but lets not get into "what is a tank" in this thread--every time it shows up on GD it always devolves into madness. MADNESS. | ||
Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
Also might give supports another decision to make regarding masteries. Do you want all the generic supporty stuff in the def/uti tree, or pour points into the offense tree in hopes that your individual heals can be more potent? Right now the current new trees just feel like such a non-decision for most champs. | ||
rigwarl
United States540 Posts
Because it's strictly better than the old version (besides only being able to put 2 points into it instead of 5 points), I think it's worth it for any champ that could potentially eat minion damage early game (riven, garen). Thoughts? | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.) Would love to test, but I don't own twitch. | ||
mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/ | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On November 18 2011 00:38 mr_tolkien wrote: What masteries would you us for Ryze ? And for AP casters like Morgana ? I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/ Ryze would like 9/0/21 still quite a lot for the CDR, etc, and the fact that he doesn't need all that AP you get in the offense tree. Morgana, it would depend on whether or not you wanted to have more utility or damage. Most people are going to play her 21 offense, because the offense tree is just too strong to pass up, but 21 utility could work if you want to poke with her Q all day and have more shields. I'd say a lot of what you want to do in general is based on how your champion's power is going to curve and how long you can reasonably expect the game to last in respect to that curve. Take for example Zilean, who is absurdly stong in lane and throughout midgame, but lategame his damage drops off a cliff and he becomes more of a farmed support than anything. In all honesty, I would run him 21 utility, because the AP per level and Executioner masteries aren't going to make him that much better in lane, while the CDR buff and summoner cooldowns will help you make more clutch plays with your ult and your slow/haste. But if you think you can end the game before 35+ minutes, go 21 Offense and just lololol all day. | ||
rigwarl
United States540 Posts
Ryze is a tricky one due to his weak AP scaling but I believe there was some discussion on him if you search the thread. | ||
Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 17 2011 15:56 sylverfyre wrote: So, since all sorts of jungling got easier, can twitch clear jungle more competently? Can he do it with 21 offense 9 defense? How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.) Would love to test, but I don't own twitch. I dont own twitch, but do you have a PBE account? I know this isn't it's purpose, but it's a great place to do try out or test some characters while (hopefully) looking for bugs. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Logrus
United States228 Posts
On November 17 2011 07:06 Shiv. wrote: It had been, but I feel like Vlad really needs the CDR badly. I played as Malz vs a Vlad mid the yesterday and got rocked. We killed each other a few times in lane, but when I killed him it was I clearly outplayed him, juking him into pooling and silences and maximizing my minion dps. When he killed me... well, I'm not saying it wasn't his skill, I'm just saying there wasn't much room for skill when his Q hit me for 40% of my hps. Certainly I underestimated his damage in a large way. I should have paid more attention to his items and runes. I'm paraphrasing, regardless, at a certain point I suddenly couldn't do anything in lane vs him cuz his q threat was too large. After the match I checked his build and it was as follows: flat ap quint, flat ap blue, flat ap yellow, flat ap red x4, mpen red x5 0/9/21 was his exact build: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 I'd take initiator over evasion but this is wat he used exactly. open amp tome -> haunting guise/sorc boots -> hit for a billion I had been thinking of a a theoretical Vlad build (I have yet to try): mpen red, hp/lvl yellow, flat cdr blue, move quint. 9/0/21. Figure open boots 3. I wanted to focus on mobility and cdr altho clearly I am lacking in early offense comparatively. This is something someone else used that's really really different but it def worked so I found it interesting and thought I'd share it. Its 'gimmicky' but it was really strong. | ||
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote: Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over. amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear. Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 18 2011 03:40 PrinceXizor wrote: amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear. Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed. ...no skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin). | ||
phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441 just me ranting about this shit I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW. This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team. Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes. This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games. | ||
Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On November 18 2011 06:17 phyvo wrote: I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW. This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team. Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes. This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games. Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well. | ||
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:11 Mogwai wrote: ...no skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin). hard to gank anyone when you don't have HP, which is what the amp tome excels at doing over boots. | ||
phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 18 2011 07:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well. For the reason you stated it's not as much of an issue on non-supports but for supports it's very different. Unless you are banking on early aggression a support doesn't really require the extra stats early on and given a more passive game it's simply not a concern for the support and by the time you get to your first back you reap the benefit because you get to buy more wards or a dring + wards. Of course if you like running aggressive firstblood combos bot (zergling rush kekeke) then there's no point to going utility for gp5. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
I read your thread and agree with almost all of it. Utility went from almost always atleast getting 9 in it... to never using it unless you are support or if you want the 20% buff duration or need even more movespeed (Udyr). Scout could be a cool perk, but 5% isn't substantial enough for anyone to consider it. Expanded mind isn't that useful to many people except Ryze and should only be used to get to meditation. Awareness is to far down the tree for any jungler to want to get (unless a whole team gets it and trolls with zilean and exp quints). CDR from intelligence is easier to get from the other trees while still having useful points in the other trees. Sage is laughable though. I'm expecting a buff to the utility tree or we are only going to see it on few champions. Ryze for mana/mana regen, some junglers for the 20% buff duration and obviously supports. Does anyone else feel like transmutation should be in the offensive tree T4 next to vampirism? Also wanted to state that Ryze seems to have a ton of options, his build allows for tankyness so going down different trees with something like: Defensive 9/15/6 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-3-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Offense w/defense 21/9/0 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Offense w/ utility 21/0/9 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 Defensive 12.1% CDR @18 9/21/0 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 Utility 10% CDR 9/0/21 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-3-0-4-2-0-0-0-1-0-4-0-0-3-1 Sorry if this was too much, I like champions who can dish out decent damage while taking some aswell. (Udyr, Ryze, Nasus, etc) Just wanted to get others thoughts. Edit: Also, I still don't know the exact cost efficiency on the trees so I filled them in with what I thought was decent. Tell me if you think any of them are horrible or how I should change them. | ||
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