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[Discussion] Season 2 Masteries

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Normal
Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree.
Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:26:11
November 14 2011 06:25 GMT
#1
With the advent of new masteries, we now have a mastery planner for theorycrafting purposes. Outside of the usual 21/9 tree setup, let's see what creative, new mastery layout are plausible for certain champions.

Thanks to met48 @ LoL subreddit for making the planner
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:33:02
November 14 2011 06:29 GMT
#2
What are people's thoughts on Havoc vs. Vampirism on AD champs (jungle, top, or bot)?

On November 14 2011 15:28 Craton wrote:
I really dunno what I'm gonna do with renekton. Want arp but aspd so useless on Renekton. Mpen isn't bad for his ult with the CDR pre-req, but I dunno that it's worth not getting arp.

Maybe this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

I'm not sure I like ditching Lethality. You don't really need it on Renekton, but consider that it was already competitive as a 3-point mastery. Even on someone like Renekton who gets pretty tangential use out of +% crit damage, the gold value per point is so insanely good with it being a 1-point mastery that just the incidental crit from buying Atma's makes it worth it IMO.
Moderator
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:34:29
November 14 2011 06:30 GMT
#3
yeah i will be looking around for other ways of building up masteries

but i believe 21/9 builds were still preserved in the remake
On November 14 2011 15:23 Kenpachi wrote:
assuming 21-0-9 will be the new way of the caster, i think this is the most optimal
+ Show Spoiler +
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

In what case would you go 9-0-21 for ap casters anymore?
+ Show Spoiler +
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-3-0-0-3-1-0-2-0-0-3-1


how about a mastery page set up for a split pusher?
14-15-1
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
November 14 2011 06:32 GMT
#4
As for more unusual masteries, I might just use this (9/12/9) for ryze, as he is kind of a mage offtank. I will really miss the cdr from utility though.
http://thefwcentral.comhttp://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


Other than that, standard caster masteries will be 9/0/21 or 21/0/9.

With the 2nd I find it extremely hard to place the 9 points in ulility. Meditation is a really strong mastery, but swiftness is really good as well (not as good as before obv, but its higher in the tree now) What do people think?
infinitestory
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:40:29
November 14 2011 06:34 GMT
#5
My (theorycraft) predictions for the "standard" mastery setups

where standard really means base - there are lots of tweaks that can be made to suit certain champions, and also I have no clue what most junglers actually want because I suck at jungling


EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing. I can't wait to come to lane with FC/Pot/4 wards as a support. (not to mention that practically everyone appreciates an extra pot to start in lane)
Translator:3
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:35:59
November 14 2011 06:34 GMT
#6
Ryze is like the only person I'd still go 9/0/21 on, lol. The deeper offense masteries aren't that good for him because they give AP.

On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote:
My (theorycraft) predictions for the standard mastery setups

I don't understand why you skip Runic Affinity in all your 9-util setups. With a 5% buff, it's pretty clearly stronger per-point than anything else available in the first 3 tiers of utility.
Moderator
SpaceToaster
Profile Joined October 2010
United States289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:41:05
November 14 2011 06:38 GMT
#7
I was thinking about trying this one out for solotop Riven. 24-6-0. I think it maximizes her early game damage, while also getting the most arpen possible for the lategame. The lifesteal is nice and will keep you in lane longer, and I took the lowered minion damage since Riven likes to eat a lot of creep aggro (comparatively) when harassing. Might even try 28-2-0 for the 4% CDR, since I'm going so heavily into offense, and I feel like I can make do with the resists I get from runes. Thoughts?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-2-2-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
infinitestory
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:44:45
November 14 2011 06:38 GMT
#8
On November 14 2011 15:34 TheYango wrote:
Ryze is like the only person I'd still go 9/0/21 on, lol. The deeper offense masteries aren't that good for him because they give AP.

Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote:
My (theorycraft) predictions for the standard mastery setups

I don't understand why you skip Runic Affinity in all your 9-util setups. With a 5% buff, it's pretty clearly stronger per-point than anything else available in the first 3 tiers of utility.

oops that is me forgetting Runic Affinity is in tier 3
edited because i typo'd
Translator:3
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
November 14 2011 06:39 GMT
#9
On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote:
EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing.

actually now that i think about it, if a jungler commited to the utility tree, wouldnt he be able to buy a potion or 2 with Wealth?
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:47:45
November 14 2011 06:41 GMT
#10
My new Jungler page

This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:43:02
November 14 2011 06:42 GMT
#11
On November 14 2011 15:38 infinitestory wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:34 TheYango wrote:
Ryze is like the only person I'd still go 9/0/21 on, lol. The deeper offense masteries aren't that good for him because they give AP.

On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote:
My (theorycraft) predictions for the standard mastery setups

I don't understand why you skip Runic Affinity in all your 9-util setups. With a 5% buff, it's pretty clearly stronger per-point than anything else available in the first 3 tiers of utility.

oops that is me forgetting Runic Affinity is in tier 2

It's in tier 3. 9 gets you 1 point in tier 3. This has always been the case.

On November 14 2011 15:34 infinitestory wrote:
EDIT: Also I think Greed->Wealth is going to be potentially game-changing.

Greed/Wealth is going to suck because the gold value/point of Greed is so bad now compared to before (it used to be that 1gp10 was worth more gold value in a game than most 1-point masteries; not the case anymore). You pay 6 mastery points to start with an extra 1 pot, when 6 more points in offense or defense potentially give you game-changing stats like % ArPen or % crit damage that are way bigger than 1 pot.

On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery.
Moderator
infinitestory
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4053 Posts
November 14 2011 06:43 GMT
#12
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is why I would feel most comfortable with on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

Out of curiosity, why Summoner's Wrath (Exhaust/Ignite/Surge/Ghost) instead of Summoner's Resolve (Revive/Cleanse/Heal/Smite/Garrison)?
I also think Improved Recall is going to turn out to be pretty much useless compared to Summoner's Insight.
Translator:3
Theoren
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada810 Posts
November 14 2011 06:43 GMT
#13
On November 14 2011 15:29 TheYango wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Havoc vs. Vampirism on AD champs (jungle, top, or bot)?

Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:28 Craton wrote:
I really dunno what I'm gonna do with renekton. Want arp but aspd so useless on Renekton. Mpen isn't bad for his ult with the CDR pre-req, but I dunno that it's worth not getting arp.

Maybe this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

I'm not sure I like ditching Lethality. You don't really need it on Renekton, but consider that it was already competitive as a 3-point mastery. Even on someone like Renekton who gets pretty tangential use out of +% crit damage, the gold value per point is so insanely good with it being a 1-point mastery that just the incidental crit from buying Atma's makes it worth it IMO.


Just to add to this, Taking Havoc over the Deadliness is a poor use of points as each 1% of crit increases you're overall damage in the game by 1% so you are getting terrible value out of Havoc. I think on Renek I'm probably going to run this http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-3-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 most of the time with the points in CDR being flexible.
Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
November 14 2011 06:44 GMT
#14
On November 14 2011 15:43 infinitestory wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is why I would feel most comfortable with on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

Out of curiosity, why Summoner's Wrath (Exhaust/Ignite/Surge/Ghost) instead of Summoner's Resolve (Revive/Cleanse/Heal/Smite/Garrison)?
I also think Improved Recall is going to turn out to be pretty much useless compared to Summoner's Insight.


Haha, because I'm super good at reading. I'm so used to the smite talent being in offensive that I put there assuming it was still there. Changing now.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
November 14 2011 06:45 GMT
#15
offense tree is so much better than b4
lethality and deadliness' gold values have gone up a bunch, and that 10% arpen is gonna be sweet
Hey! Listen!
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
November 14 2011 06:46 GMT
#16
On November 14 2011 15:23 Kenpachi wrote:
assuming 21-0-9 will be the new way of the caster, i think this is the most optimal
+ Show Spoiler +
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

In what case would you go 9-0-21 for ap casters anymore?
+ Show Spoiler +
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-3-0-0-3-1-0-2-0-0-3-1


Well ryze as mentioned. The main point of the deep utility tree is the 6% cdr. When the main point of the champ is damage (karthus/cass), 21 offense is probably the way to go. Especially in the Karthus case, the 21 offense mastery synergizes well with his ult, so thats a given. Chars with more utility (annivia/lux) might just benefit more from the cooldown reduction. Also, utility offers way more sustain and the experience bonus, which means it is way better for laning.

It also depends a bit on the used runepage too. The new trees are definately more interesting than the old ones.
Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
November 14 2011 06:46 GMT
#17
On November 14 2011 15:42 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery.

When/where was this stated? I don't recall it being in the Patch Preview, but could be wrong.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:52:28
November 14 2011 06:48 GMT
#18
On November 14 2011 15:46 Cixah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:42 TheYango wrote:
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery.

When/where was this stated? I don't recall it being in the Patch Preview, but could be wrong.

There have been multiple red posts about it.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17137319#post17137319

Whether the mastery/XP quints will be needed will depend on whether the XP changes create new XP breakpoints for non-conventional jungling paths that Riot didn't think of when adjusting the XP values.

On November 14 2011 15:46 h3r1n6 wrote:
Well ryze as mentioned. The main point of the deep utility tree is the 6% cdr. When the main point of the champ is damage (karthus/cass), 21 offense is probably the way to go. Especially in the Karthus case, the 21 offense mastery synergizes well with his ult, so thats a given. Chars with more utility (annivia/lux) might just benefit more from the cooldown reduction. Also, utility offers way more sustain and the experience bonus, which means it is way better for laning.

It also depends a bit on the used runepage too. The new trees are definately more interesting than the old ones.

CDR is a poor reason to go 21-util because every AP carry can cap off blue buff + blue elixir + 5% more (4 of which comes from offense). Get like 2 flat CDR glyphs if you're really anal about that last 1%.
Moderator
dottycakes
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada548 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:57:19
November 14 2011 06:53 GMT
#19
The masteries in the Offense and Defense trees seem to have more of a scaling effect while the Utility tree is all about early game. I'm really liking the new 9/0/21 for Kennen. The lower cd on summoners will be huge in lane if other APs start going 21/0/9.

Oh, and aren't they increasing the CD on Flash? Mastermind will be a bigger deal.
infinitestory
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 06:58:02
November 14 2011 06:56 GMT
#20
On November 14 2011 15:48 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:46 Cixah wrote:
On November 14 2011 15:42 TheYango wrote:
On November 14 2011 15:41 Cixah wrote:
My new Jungler page

This is what I would feel as the most comfortable on about 99% of the junglers when the changes go live. With the +xp being so far down in utility, our best bet is more than likely going to be to go down defensive and grab the mini Rammus W. With +xp being so nessicary to hit level 2 after blue it is either do this or invest in EXP quints.

For like the 10th time, they're adjusting XP gains in jungle so you hit the corresponding level breakpoints without needing the XP mastery.

When/where was this stated? I don't recall it being in the Patch Preview, but could be wrong.

There have been multiple red posts about it.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17137319#post17137319

Whether the mastery/XP quints will be needed will depend on whether the XP changes create new XP breakpoints for non-conventional jungling paths that Riot didn't think of when adjusting the XP values.

Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 15:46 h3r1n6 wrote:
Well ryze as mentioned. The main point of the deep utility tree is the 6% cdr. When the main point of the champ is damage (karthus/cass), 21 offense is probably the way to go. Especially in the Karthus case, the 21 offense mastery synergizes well with his ult, so thats a given. Chars with more utility (annivia/lux) might just benefit more from the cooldown reduction. Also, utility offers way more sustain and the experience bonus, which means it is way better for laning.

It also depends a bit on the used runepage too. The new trees are definately more interesting than the old ones.

CDR is a poor reason to go 21-util because every AP carry can cap off blue buff + blue elixir + 5% more (4 of which comes from offense). Get like 2 flat CDR glyphs if you're really anal about that last 1%.

Plus the fact that in Ryze's case, he can get tankier by dipping into the defensive tree while still picking up the large cdr/lv mastery down there.

EDIT: like this perhaps? dunno, I don't play ryze, i only know the basic theory behind him
Translator:3
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 07:13:16
November 14 2011 07:10 GMT
#21
For Ryze...

Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful)
Def tree: Health and Resists
Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1

However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 14 2011 07:11 GMT
#22
They are adding in quite a bit of extra mobility with the ability to get 5% movement speed off of talents, if you go deep enough into defensive tree. Doing a 1-21-8 on singed running ghost/tele would be annoying as hell with these reworked talents. Especially if you think of the 21 point defensive talent combined with his ult. He would be able to eat up CC like crazy. Or for Irelia, you could run swap dmg reduction for CD reduction like this and run ignite/tele. I am digging the defensive tree possibilities for certain champs now.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 14 2011 07:15 GMT
#23
On November 14 2011 16:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
For Ryze...

Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful)
Def tree: Health and Resists
Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1

However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree.

Strictly speaking, the fact that FHeart + Q passive + 10% CDR caps you EXACTLY at 40% CDR makes getting 10% exactly from masteries somewhat compelling, especially since after Cata+Tear+Glacial, Ryze stops really needing the blue buff mana, which already opens up the possibility of passing the buff off to someone else.
Moderator
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 07:18 GMT
#24
On November 14 2011 16:15 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
For Ryze...

Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful)
Def tree: Health and Resists
Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1

However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree.

Strictly speaking, the fact that FHeart + Q passive + 10% CDR caps you EXACTLY at 40% CDR makes getting 10% exactly from masteries somewhat compelling, especially since after Cata+Tear+Glacial, Ryze stops really needing the blue buff mana, which already opens up the possibility of passing the buff off to someone else.


Level 6-12, I'd still give Ryze Blue. Tear isn't that well charged, you'd have a Glacial at best, etc. End game at level 18, Ryze doesn't need Blue, I agree.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
November 14 2011 07:24 GMT
#25
Mspd nerf makes me not so willing to run something similar to the 17-3-10 I run on Shyvana currently. Will probably just run 30/0/0 if offense turns out to be worth it to maximize jungling speed :/
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13866 Posts
November 14 2011 07:24 GMT
#26
oh god greed wealth changes things

get a tome or a long sword for casters or ad carrys. I've been wodering if it was worth it to go sword on a ranged carry then stright into a lantern for amazing all round lane skills and free wards. going to be a good few days trying out new paths.

A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 07:28:39
November 14 2011 07:26 GMT
#27
Hmmm. For 21/9/0 jungle (I'm thinking Lee Sin) my first try is this:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-2-4-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks.

Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 07:26 GMT
#28
On November 14 2011 16:24 sermokala wrote:
oh god greed wealth changes things

get a tome or a long sword for casters or ad carrys. I've been wodering if it was worth it to go sword on a ranged carry then stright into a lantern for amazing all round lane skills and free wards. going to be a good few days trying out new paths.



You could buy both of those already...
I open Tome + pot on Fiddle and Long Sword + pot on WW.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 07:35:58
November 14 2011 07:30 GMT
#29
On November 14 2011 16:26 Ryalnos wrote:
Hmmm. For 21/9/0 jungle (I'm thinking Lee Sin) my first try is this:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks.

Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms.

Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good.

Consider that right now, Deadliness + Lethality gives you 2% crit and 10% crit damage for 6 points. With the new masteries, you spend 1 less point, get 2% MORE crit, and the same amount of crit damage.
Moderator
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
November 14 2011 07:34 GMT
#30
On November 14 2011 16:30 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:26 Ryalnos wrote:
Hmmm. For 21/9/0 jungle (I'm thinking Lee Sin) my first try is this:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks.

Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms.

Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good.


True, looks like the crit chance is worth ~50g per point, the lifesteal ~38 per point (judging by vampiric scepter/brawler's gloves).
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
November 14 2011 07:40 GMT
#31
I suppose this will my my Lux page
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells.

But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 14 2011 07:51 GMT
#32
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Magus
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
November 14 2011 07:51 GMT
#33
On November 14 2011 16:40 cabarkapa wrote:
I suppose this will my my Lux page
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells.

But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups.

9/0/21 is looking a lot more useful on Ryze, you only really need the magic penetration mastery and the rest can go into the utility.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 07:57 GMT
#34
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9


I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers.
For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 08:03:30
November 14 2011 07:59 GMT
#35
guess 0/21/9 is going to be my new udyr page
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

and something like this on nocturne
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 14 2011 08:04 GMT
#36
On November 14 2011 16:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9


I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers.
For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


really? x_x
can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha
every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Flakes
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States3125 Posts
November 14 2011 08:09 GMT
#37
On November 14 2011 16:30 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:26 Ryalnos wrote:
Hmmm. For 21/9/0 jungle (I'm thinking Lee Sin) my first try is this:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-3-0-3-0-1-1-2-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Not sure which is best of {+1% crit chance per pt, +0.5% damage per pt} and whether it's worth it to take vampirism - I'm figuring lifesteal along with the 6 reflected damage to minions might make it a mite easier to start boots+3 pots on him for early ganks.

Not sure it's worth it to go up utility tree for +20% buff duration and +2% ms.

Deadliness is worth it. It has better gold value per point than Vampirism, and it takes an extremely long time for Havoc to break even. If that weren't enough, having what used to be 3 points of Deadliness for ONE point is insanely good.

Consider that right now, Deadliness + Lethality gives you 2% crit and 10% crit damage for 6 points. With the new masteries, you spend 1 less point, get 2% MORE crit, and the same amount of crit damage.

Yeah, havoc seems like it's only good if you have every other offense point that your champ scales with.

I'm still not sure how I'm going to do Jax, since he scales with everything and dodge is off the trees. I switch back and forth between 21/9/0 and 9/21/0 with the current masteries, so I'm thinking the same thing for the new ones with
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-2-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
for defense and
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-1-0-1-0-0-1-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
for offense. The buckets of AP in offense is tempting, but I'm pretty sure hybrids should jump on the opportunity to get double %penetration (huehuehue) since they don't itemize for it. Also hitting the crit just because its worth more per point now, and Jax is gonna get atma's 90% of the time.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 08:13 GMT
#38
On November 14 2011 17:04 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9


I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers.
For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


really? x_x
can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha
every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best


yarly.
You can drop Indomitable and a point in Honor Guard for Initiator if you so wanted. I actually had that before. But the whole "70%" didn't seal the deal for me. As a jungler, you're gonna be under 70% a lot of the time it feels.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
November 14 2011 08:17 GMT
#39
I love the new offense and defense masteries, I just don't really know how I'm gonna set it up and who needs what, feel like I won't be in utility as much now though.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
rainfable
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States171 Posts
November 14 2011 08:20 GMT
#40
(selfish ap player post, i rarely play ad ever so i wouldn't even know what i'm talking about .__.)

Right now, since the offense page is mostly tuned to AD champions, AP masteries are normally 9/0/21, which right now gives them a good amount of cdr as well as the useful Awareness exp bonus..
With the new masteries, getting 4% cdr + 5% ap + 1ap/lv + 4ap + 1.5% overall damage along with 6% executioner damage to targets below 40% with a 21/0/9 build will force you to sacrifice 5% exp, 6% cdr, and extra starting gold, along with 15% summoner spell cd reduc, over sacrificing 1% total damage (1.5% if you go for 10% mpen instead), 10% mpen (0% if you sacrifice 0.5% total dmg off havoc), 1 ap/lv, 5% total ap, and the executioner bonus if you go 9/0/21 compared to 21/0/9. However, you do get a total of 10% cdr instead of just 4%, but I really do prefer the 21/0/9 ap boost over the exp.
Right now with my runes, I start out with +45ap and 8.5mpen with a doran's ring, with 21/0/9 I would be starting out with 48 with 1.5% total damage and the executioner's bonus.
The 5% exp is what really hurts, imo.
Also the 15% summoner spell cd reduc. I hate having those moments where you really need a flash and it's like 2 seconds away from cd. u_u Seems like that's gonna happen to me way more and I'll be glasscannoning if I decide to stick with 21/0/9, but I'll be experimenting with it when it gets released, and I'll just see which one works out better for me.. right now I can't really tell.
{♔} eri (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧   ⋆ my life for aiur!
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
November 14 2011 08:22 GMT
#41
On November 14 2011 16:51 Magus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 16:40 cabarkapa wrote:
I suppose this will my my Lux page
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

One thing I like about the new mastery pages is that they combined the masteries that improve summoner spells.

But it looks like all or most AP casters will be running very similar 21/0/9 set ups.

9/0/21 is looking a lot more useful on Ryze, you only really need the magic penetration mastery and the rest can go into the utility.

Yeah I'm not too familiar with Ryze, but the way I see it, you trade 3% spell vamp, exp%, and cooldown/summoner reduction for damage dealt, some ability power, and increased damage against low health targets.

To me it seems like the latter would be better for APs who rely on the burst of their spells, which probably isn't Ryze, but it's what I had in mind when I said the 21/0/9 would be similar for most AP casters.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
c.Deadly
Profile Joined March 2010
United States545 Posts
November 14 2011 08:43 GMT
#42
What are you guys thinking about running on ranged AD? Is there any reason to invest in utility or defense now that awareness is so high up on the tree? Is runic affinity worth losing out one some pretty useful offensive masteries?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

26/3/1
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
November 14 2011 08:49 GMT
#43
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!

My only gripe is no more nimbleness :[ Is it confirmed that Riot wants to phase out dodge or is it just speculation based on Riot's patching history? Because despite dodge being random, I feel like it's still critical, albeit a little niche, part of the game. Dodge is the only real way to deal with Vayne/Kog imo since their passive/autos are just so damn strong. Flat damage reduction as replacement for dodge just doesn't cut it in all honesty.
Lorken
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand804 Posts
November 14 2011 09:02 GMT
#44
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).
LOUD NOISES!!!
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
November 14 2011 09:06 GMT
#45
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.

Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage?
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Chrispy
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada5878 Posts
November 14 2011 09:23 GMT
#46
The cool thing about the new masteries is that you can go 30 offense/defense/utility and not feel completely retarded.
Retvrn to Forvms
Lorken
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand804 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 09:24:56
November 14 2011 09:24 GMT
#47
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.

Do you think 1 additional ability power is better than .5% damage?

lol I guess not. I wouldn't have picked that up thanks!
Kind of off topic but with that 10% bonus for surge I think it's going to be quite an epic spell.

Anyone think spending 6 points for +2 gold per 10 and 40 bonus gold would be a waste? I guess on Soraka you could go boots + mana regen for philo stone if you wait a few secs at the fountain, or a few extra potions for other champs but nothing really costs around the 500 margin or low enough to buy two items with it.
LOUD NOISES!!!
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 09:57:32
November 14 2011 09:34 GMT
#48
For support it means you can swap one of your 3 wards for a pink ward and pack a potion, or open with 3 wards and 3 potions.

Oh god please don't go faerie + boots. Whenever I see a support open without wards I want to die.
Tyrran
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
France777 Posts
November 14 2011 09:38 GMT
#49
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!


Meh, as a jungler, that's basically investing 6 masteries point for 2 gp5 and 40 gold at start ( only an extra pot). Not worth it IMHO. Migth be better on support tho, allowin earlier philo or squeezing an extra ward at start.

I'm still waiting to see the impact of the exp masteries. Using the wolf->blue->Enemy wraith route ( Udyr/skarner) pretty much requires you to hit lvl 3 in order to really bully the enemy jungle. Also for some champ like WW that have extremely weak pre level 6 jungle/gank, the extra 5% exp migth really be useful.

Also, i'm wondering the viability of going 12/9/9 (Weapon expertise + Havoc in offence /Bladed armor in defense /runic affinity in utility). It seems like it could lead to a fast (atk spd+bladed armor) and safe ( defensive masteries) jungle into powerful( swiftness) ganks.... so many possibilities to test :D


Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
November 14 2011 09:53 GMT
#50
I think Greed should be 2 points instead of 4, it's looking to have very limited use at 4 points.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Shawngood
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 10:07:47
November 14 2011 09:58 GMT
#51
Runic Affinity is looking to be mandatory for every jungler now, especially since you have bonus movespeed, a faster bluepill and CDR on Flash as prerequisites for it.

Regarding the other trees I can't really make up my mind, especially since I'm unsure on how to value Executioner for a jungler.

Offense looks way more interesting than Defense for champs like Nocturne, GP, Trundle and so on. Especially the fact that you can get so much bonus AD, AS, APen and even lifesteal for free now.

Out of Defense I find interesting for junglers:
Tough Skin, Hardiness, Bladed Armor, Indomitable, Initiator, Honor Guard and Juggernaut. The rest looks like a lot of bonus HP which is nice on Rammus but rather meh on most offensive junglers.
Smite mastery (Summoner's Resolve) doesn't look mandatory anymore since it doesn't reduce the CD but instead they doubled the Gold per use. That's less than 1 GP/5 if you use it every 75 seconds though (without Mastermind). Pretty underwhelming.
@ESL_Shawn
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
November 14 2011 10:13 GMT
#52
On November 14 2011 18:23 Chrispy wrote:
The cool thing about the new masteries is that you can go 30 offense/defense/utility and not feel completely retarded.


I'm pretty pleased that 21/9 isn't mandatory anymore
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 23:24:00
November 14 2011 10:26 GMT
#53
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9

Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger.

Personally, on physical damage junglers, 1-pt Lethality and 10% ArPen seem too good to pass up. Anyone who was running 21 offense or defense before will probably continue to do so. The biggest change will probably be on junglers who ran 10+ utility setups (off the top of my head, Fiddle, Jarvan, Maokai, Nunu, Olaf, Rammus, Skarner, Udyr, Warwick)--these guys will fall in varying places (Fiddle/Olaf will probably go 21 offense, Rammus will probably go 21 defense, Jarvan/Maokai/Nunu/Skarner/Udyr/Warwick are toss-ups).

+ Show Spoiler +

Some possible mastery setups for those toss-up champs:

Jarvan - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/12/9... He likes doing damage, but he likes being tanky...WUT DO I DO???

Maokai - 9/12/9, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. % MPen and Runic Affinity are both good goals in the offense/util trees, but Juggernaut also feels like it's great with his kit.

Nunu - 0/9/21, or 0/15/15. Nunu feels like one of the few junglers that might actually want to stick to 21-util, given his support-ish kit, and how those extra smites can be pretty crucial for him. The deeper defense masteries don't feel that good for his role as a defensive support lategame (esp. given his low farm), but being able to romp around their jungle with 4-pt Swiftness + 3-pt Initiator feels like it could be good.

Skarner - 14/15/1, 14/9/7 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. You don't need Lethality, Vampirism, Sunder, or Executioner, but both Alacrity and Sorcery give you stats you want, and getting both %-pen masteries on a hybrid-damage champ that won't usually get LW or Void feels like it goes a long way. With the other 16 points, you could either dump them all in defense, or you split 9 in defense for Bladed Armor + 7 in util for Meditation.

Udyr - 15/14/1, 9/21/0, or 0/21/9. Same deal as Skarner in a lot of ways. He doesn't have mana problems though, so no real point in going 7 util.

Warwick - 21/9/0, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/9/12, 9/12/9... Ok I have no clue what the fuck to do with Warwick. The only thing I feel is really clear-cut at this point is "pick 2 out of Arcane Knowledge, Bladed Armor, and Runic Affinity, and do whatever the fuck you want with the other 12 points".


One big change to note is that some counterjungle routes that required certain Smite timings achievable with 21-util might not be worth doing anymore.

On November 14 2011 17:13 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 17:04 gtrsrs wrote:
On November 14 2011 16:57 NeoIllusions wrote:
On November 14 2011 16:51 gtrsrs wrote:
yango i'm going to need you to mathcraft new pages for every single jungler i play, thanks

right now i don't see how you can ignore the defensive tree, it seems sooooo good
i was looking at 0/21/9


I'd still use 21 9 0 for most AD Junglers.
For Amumu and Rammus I'd use: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-3-1-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


really? x_x
can't really see giving up "initiator" on rammus of all champs haha
every tree seems really good, it's gonna take a lot of play to decide which is best


yarly.
You can drop Indomitable and a point in Honor Guard for Initiator if you so wanted. I actually had that before. But the whole "70%" didn't seal the deal for me. As a jungler, you're gonna be under 70% a lot of the time it feels.

If I was going to ditch points for Initiator, I'd drop some of the Armor/MR. They were good filler before, but now that everything else has been buffed, they're pretty underwhelming.

On November 14 2011 17:43 c.Deadly wrote:
What are you guys thinking about running on ranged AD? Is there any reason to invest in utility or defense now that awareness is so high up on the tree? Is runic affinity worth losing out one some pretty useful offensive masteries?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-3-1-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

26/3/1

Honestly, Havoc doesn't even match Brute Force in damage per point till like 200 AD. For the vast majority of the game, it's not that good. IMO having Runic Affinity is better than Havoc.
Moderator
-Zoda-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
France3578 Posts
November 14 2011 11:04 GMT
#54
On November 14 2011 17:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
With the wealth mastery you could open some crazier item builds on junglers. Like Long Sword+2pot on Lee sin or Doran's+potion on anything. THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!

If you want weatlh, you can do something like that on AD junglers: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-2-0-0-1-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0
♪ 最初はi つなぐdo それ つまりlife 常に移動 ♪ - IGN: Uhryks
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
November 14 2011 11:20 GMT
#55
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.


The opposite actualy.

Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too.
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
November 14 2011 11:29 GMT
#56
On November 14 2011 20:20 h3r1n6 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 18:06 cabarkapa wrote:
On November 14 2011 18:02 Lorken wrote:
I'd run this on Teemo: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

and probably something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-2-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0 on casters but I feel like the utility tree is really lacking in power now (only went into utility for buff duration).

Easily accessible movement speed should benefit casters pretty well.


The opposite actualy.

Before, casters would have 21 utility including the 3% movement bonus. Now the movement speed bonus is easier to get for everyone and is 1% less too.

I meant in the sense that he only went into utility for the buff duration increase, the movement speed is quite useful to have.

But yeah I agree, a lot more people will be running around with that additional 2% movement speed, so the actual benefits to getting it are lessened.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 13:06:03
November 14 2011 12:12 GMT
#57
People are going to blow each other up early game, especially with all the squishies massing in the offensive tree.

Champions like Leblanc are going to be more retarded than ever cos they're going to hit every slightly harder which is usually all they need to instagib.
Tyrran
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
France777 Posts
November 14 2011 12:31 GMT
#58

Actually, getting the 2% will be mandatory on most jungler without a gap closer and a disable. You know that feeling you have when running after someone that's just an inch to far for you to stun him, even if you have +3% MS mastery and MS quint. Well its going to be more frequent now .
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 13:30:24
November 14 2011 13:03 GMT
#59
This seems to fit perfectly for my Karthus: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


Regarding greed and wealth: yeah it´s quite an investment BUT remember that doran+pot is literally the strongest opening and was run on ANYONE when dorans were cheaper. The value of wealth isn´t 40G but being able to have a far stronger lvl1.
Greed also competes with spellvamp and runic affinity, masteries certain champs can easily skip, supports in particular.

Wealth means you start with 515 Gold. If you are a support and are expected to get a ward thats 440 left - and lets you get something like a regrowth pendant (435). Or you could get regrowth pendant + fairy charm at exactly 515 total.
Shawngood
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany473 Posts
November 14 2011 13:04 GMT
#60
Stonewall's post about the new masteries on Reign of Gaming is definitely worth reading:
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/stonewalls-jungle/4268-the-new-masteries-and-jungling

+ Show Spoiler +
First and foremost I have already had the privilege to fool around with the new masteries months ago so I can already tell you that it's a very wonderful thing. I can also say the jungle remake will make a bigger impact than the masteries.

To be perfectly honest though I did not get to test out the supposed experience boost but since this is a tournament patch I doubt they want to affect the current meta too much.

In any case, I've already tested out certain builds and certain paths and your build freedom is a lot greater and epic. The 8 mandatory points in utility was very restricting and you end up sinking 9 since where else is that last point going to go?

The new masteries will cause two different versions of many junglers. I dubbed them the "Focus" and "Transition" builds. There are certain mastery combinations that were simply godly for junglers but I would reason they would miss out a lot of the awesome higher tier tree points.

I'm sure some of you have already taken a gander at the masteries and gone "oh wow all these jungle masteries sound so cool" and you're right. Some junglers make incredible use of some or all of those and that is their "Focus" build. During my testing of these things I argued that despite them wanting to make jungling less strict on your masteries it's not going to happen completely. I mean, there will always be a standard or there will always be a "best" build. However, this is where "Transition" builds came into place. I figure most jungler types will require/need some sort of mastery requirement (like a minimum of X masteries) and then fill whatever they want.

In Short ----

Focus Build = Maxed out Jungle Prowess for X champion (masteries and runes dedicated to giving a champion his strongest jungle possible)
Transition Build = A minimum rune and mastery build that fits a champion's real/best build in order to make transitioning as smooth as possible

This already does happen btw just the gap will be a lot more noticeable with the mastery changes. The balance is going to be important and it will diversify jungling.

Some people may ask - why even bother with focus builds if the jungle phase doesn't last forever? Well think of it this way. Are you using someone like Nunu/Skarner (a strong control jungler) vs a gank heavy champion like Nocturne that will have a worse transition if shut down than you? This too already exists where some junglers are given the job to simply terrorize the enemy jungler and keep him down to support his team indirectly. A focus build would boost your jungle and possibly allow you to abuse non control junglers.

This is a buff to control junglers in my opinion. Also Amumu freaking loves these changes.

So basically - I haven't seen the experience changes and if the experience mastery loss has been balanced out - this is only going to buff junglers and make transitioning less awful.

Also - I am fully aware that I have to remake a lot of my jungle videos. I will focus on remaking the popular junglers first and then move on to requests that you can message me about in either my youtube channel or my twitter . I myself want to see just how Trundle and Jarvan work out with the new masteries. The current jungle I videos will still have relevant paths and it is very likely they've only been made stronger with OBVIOUS choices. I will NOT deleted. They will be archived for the enjoyment of the masses and as sort of history thing.

I will either name all the jungle videos something else like "NEW JUNGLE NOCTURNE" or simply go back and rename all the jungle videos adding "OLD" or "OBSOLETE" while changing their tags so they don't pop out in search over the new jungle videos.

As far as my tier list goes - I don't foresee much change between the junglers there. If the paths stay the same and the general strength level doesn't deviate too much - the positions likely won't be affected much. That being said, I will personally test a lot of champions out and evaluate them there. I may end up adding another aspect score such as "Transitioning" with it's own specifications for grades.

In any case - new changes to the game are always exciting and I do hope - especially with the jungle remake - that if it really doesn't go down well, Riot simply goes back to the old ways and doesn't force us to accept stuff we aren't too fond of.

Also Lee Sin is freaking strong with these masteries.

Every jungler may now have either 2 separate videos (or one big one) separating the Focus and Transition build jungles. The Focus build will have mostly strict masteries while the Transition builds will have a minimum mastery tree as well as the "bonus" points they get such as if Warwick needs only 10/6/0 to jungle that would mean he has 14 bonus points to jungle.

Example - Transition Jungle Warwick

Runes
Fus Red
Ro Yellow
Dah Blues
Skyrim Quints

Masteries
10/6/0 + 14

So I hope I don't get questions about how this works in my videos. Some champions are now able to jungle using strict Focus builds such as Irelia and Renekton. I mean they can jungle now but this time they won't fuck themselves extremely hard.
@ESL_Shawn
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 14:36 GMT
#61
I can still see 21 utility being stong on junglers. The gank xp mastery is going to make you snowball harder, and you're going to have an xp advantage over enemy junglers who don't go 21 in utility. There is also that fact you're getting cdr on the smite and you can be efficient at counter jungling. I know I get away with 21 utility as Feedlesticks now, and can honestly see him being able to counter jungle efficiently. If fiddle can hit 5 before an enemy jungler hits 4 Fiddle should be able to fear and drain harder than the enemy jungler can hit him. Just theory crafting though as most junglers tend to die when they get caught in enemy forest.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 15:29 GMT
#62
this pretty much sums up my feelings on the new masteries:
Mogwai: they did not do good gold analysis on them at all
Mogwai: tier 4 utility, "start with 20/40 more gold!"
Mogwai: tier 1 offensive, "1/2/3 AD"
Mogwai: 1 AD = 41 gold
Mogwai: ZZZZZ
Mogwai: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
November 14 2011 15:35 GMT
#63

In season two we have new masteries trees. I can't help but think there will be some abuses of the mastery tree. Take for example this scenario.


One person runs
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-3-2-1-1-0-1-3-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Super tanky, especially for siege commander. (They go surge heal, or something to that effect)

Four people go AD (I wonder whether surge will stack, one goes surge-promote, the rest go surge heal, or everyone could go teleport surge or something like that)
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-1-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

You group up and press one side hard with surge (defensive guy tanks), promote and your tower attack masteries. If your opponents are sloppy in defense you may even get ganks.

You then retreat to nearest bushes and teleport to your ward on the other side of the map and press two towers in a row with super tank.

I think the game will be super mobile.

What team strategies are you thinking of?






Btw
What I expect a lot of jungle masteries to look like:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-2-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-0-1-3-0-1-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Butterednuts
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
November 14 2011 15:43 GMT
#64
Support is going to be so good with these new masteries.
Chameleons Cast No Shadows
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 15:48:39
November 14 2011 15:46 GMT
#65
I find it funny that they added masteries to give you more gold and xp for a kill/assist when you only see a large amount of that in pub games. Meaning good players can grab them for fun vs shitty players and snowball harder by constsntly killing them ;o
Obviously you wont see that in real games i'm just thinking of fun ways to noobstomp normals lol
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 15:48 GMT
#66
On November 15 2011 00:35 bobwhiz wrote:

In season two we have new masteries trees. I can't help but think there will be some abuses of the mastery tree. Take for example this scenario.


One person runs
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-3-2-1-1-0-1-3-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Super tanky, especially for siege commander. (They go surge heal, or something to that effect)

Four people go AD (I wonder whether surge will stack, one goes surge-promote, the rest go surge heal, or everyone could go teleport surge or something like that)
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-1-4-1-0-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

You group up and press one side hard with surge (defensive guy tanks), promote and your tower attack masteries. If your opponents are sloppy in defense you may even get ganks.

You then retreat to nearest bushes and teleport to your ward on the other side of the map and press two towers in a row with super tank.

I think the game will be super mobile.

What team strategies are you thinking of?






Btw
What I expect a lot of jungle masteries to look like:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-2-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-0-1-3-0-1-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


You could already do similar strategies now. While you may be able to take 3 early outer turrets using this gimmich if the enemy pulls their lanes you're going to end up at a dissadvantage experience and level wise by not utilizing you jungle minions and having 5 people leech all the xp from the same lanes. While your enemies will be able to gain all the farm and experience from all thier lanes and jungle.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 15:52 GMT
#67
On November 15 2011 00:43 Butterednuts wrote:
Support is going to be so good with these new masteries.

not really. utility tree looks like garbage compared to the other trees right now. The other trees gained a ton of value while utility just forces you to put more points into masteries to get a lower benefit. Like, w/e yo, you get 2 gold/10 to start now, la-di-freakin'-da, you had to dump 4 points into it. You're now forced to get extra flat mana (zzz) in order to get meditation, which also now conflicts with getting the movespeed mastery. Also, Awareness and CDR mastery and now fighting with each other too. You need so many fucking points just to get the sorts of stats you could get before and for what? 5% increased sight range on wards? The ability to start with 40 more gold and 1 more gold/10? I mean, really? You're really going to say they're the ones who got the buff and not the fucking AD assholes who now get a free 10% ArPen? Or the tanks who now get 10% CC reduction that will stack with tenacity? Gimme a fucking break, utility got butchered in comparison.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
locodoco
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1615 Posts
November 14 2011 15:57 GMT
#68
On November 15 2011 00:52 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 00:43 Butterednuts wrote:
Support is going to be so good with these new masteries.

not really. utility tree looks like garbage compared to the other trees right now. The other trees gained a ton of value while utility just forces you to put more points into masteries to get a lower benefit. Like, w/e yo, you get 2 gold/10 to start now, la-di-freakin'-da, you had to dump 4 points into it. You're now forced to get extra flat mana (zzz) in order to get meditation, which also now conflicts with getting the movespeed mastery. Also, Awareness and CDR mastery and now fighting with each other too. You need so many fucking points just to get the sorts of stats you could get before and for what? 5% increased sight range on wards? The ability to start with 40 more gold and 1 more gold/10? I mean, really? You're really going to say they're the ones who got the buff and not the fucking AD assholes who now get a free 10% ArPen? Or the tanks who now get 10% CC reduction that will stack with tenacity? Gimme a fucking break, utility got butchered in comparison.

imo the offense and defense trees were underpowered compared to the util tree b4 the remake and now all 3 trees are pretty even in terms of benefits
anyways gonna be super fun being able to go 21 in offense with mages :>
i wish riot would give me better ping
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
November 14 2011 16:00 GMT
#69
On November 14 2011 15:45 Navi wrote:
offense tree is so much better than b4
lethality and deadliness' gold values have gone up a bunch, and that 10% arpen is gonna be sweet


There's flat arpen too :D

I think most junglers will still go 9 in utility for Runic Affinity. I'm liking the defensive tree a lot though for junglers. Mercenary+Veteran's Scars + Summoner's Resolve + Juggernaut is going to make tanky junglers great.

Anyone have an idea for a good shaco build for the new patch? I was thinking something like this?:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-2-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-2-0-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-1-3-0-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

Would Summoner's Resolve be worth switching with Executioner? For Shaco I mean.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 14 2011 16:01 GMT
#70
On November 14 2011 23:36 Sabin010 wrote:
I can still see 21 utility being stong on junglers. The gank xp mastery is going to make you snowball harder, and you're going to have an xp advantage over enemy junglers who don't go 21 in utility. There is also that fact you're getting cdr on the smite and you can be efficient at counter jungling. I know I get away with 21 utility as Feedlesticks now, and can honestly see him being able to counter jungle efficiently. If fiddle can hit 5 before an enemy jungler hits 4 Fiddle should be able to fear and drain harder than the enemy jungler can hit him. Just theory crafting though as most junglers tend to die when they get caught in enemy forest.


The assist xp mastery is terrible. A perfect counter-gank bottom resulting in three kills/assists would only yield a bonus of 120 exp, less than the value of one mini-golem. In that scenario you're not going to snowball because you had the exp mastery, you're going to snowball because you got a triple kill/assist bottom including the enemy jungler (and possibly a free dragon as a result).

You get away with 21 utility on Fiddlesticks now because anything past 9-12 in offense/defense is objectively terrible for AP characters/junglers. With the new masteries this is no longer true.

There's no scenario where a level 5 Fiddlesticks is going to encounter a level 3 jungler unless the other jungler screwed up royally, no matter what masteries you take. Almost all of the most popular junglers right now are going to hit level 4 before you do, let alone level 5.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 16:05 GMT
#71
The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:17:13
November 14 2011 16:08 GMT
#72
On November 15 2011 01:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0



I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it.

EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy.
hi
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:28:47
November 14 2011 16:21 GMT
#73
What? Supports are fucking crazy strong early game before everyone gets items. It's champions that are not supports being played as supports that are usually garbage at all stages of the game.

The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of.

Anyone know how indomitable and toughen skin work? Does it reduce incoming damage before or after resists and penetration is counted?
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 14 2011 16:22 GMT
#74
On November 15 2011 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
What? Supports are fucking crazy strong early game before everyone gets items. It's champions that are not supports being played as supports that are usually garbage at all stages of the game.

The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of.


In terms of covering your lane, you have a hard time before finishing up your philo for sustain, aswell as providing wards and perhaps building either a hog or grabbing some drings. I feel like when the laning phase ends, your role becomes much more important in terms of map control anyways.
hi
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:27:23
November 14 2011 16:26 GMT
#75
On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0



I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it.

EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy.

I can't believe people are seriously excited by the starting gold mastery. It has terrible gold/mastery point value, even for a tier 1 mastery (1 AD = 41, 1 AP = 21.75, 2 Armor = 33.3, 2 MRes = 33.3). Why in fuck's name would anyone care about it? What does it even open up for you in terms of starting items?

On November 15 2011 00:57 locodoco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 00:52 Mogwai wrote:
On November 15 2011 00:43 Butterednuts wrote:
Support is going to be so good with these new masteries.

not really. utility tree looks like garbage compared to the other trees right now. The other trees gained a ton of value while utility just forces you to put more points into masteries to get a lower benefit. Like, w/e yo, you get 2 gold/10 to start now, la-di-freakin'-da, you had to dump 4 points into it. You're now forced to get extra flat mana (zzz) in order to get meditation, which also now conflicts with getting the movespeed mastery. Also, Awareness and CDR mastery and now fighting with each other too. You need so many fucking points just to get the sorts of stats you could get before and for what? 5% increased sight range on wards? The ability to start with 40 more gold and 1 more gold/10? I mean, really? You're really going to say they're the ones who got the buff and not the fucking AD assholes who now get a free 10% ArPen? Or the tanks who now get 10% CC reduction that will stack with tenacity? Gimme a fucking break, utility got butchered in comparison.

imo the offense and defense trees were underpowered compared to the util tree b4 the remake and now all 3 trees are pretty even in terms of benefits
anyways gonna be super fun being able to go 21 in offense with mages :>

I agree that they were a little UP compared to the util tree, but it wasn't anything staggering. After the changes, the balance is way out of whack IMO, utility got very seriously destroyed. Movespeed and Greed's value/point got cut in half, meditation now requires you to get expanded mind (ZZZZZ), you can't get sorcery and awareness without going over 21 points in util, etc etc etc. The tree got murdered, while Defensive and Offensive got considerably buffed. Only reason people have to go deep in Utility is because 15% SS CDR is still retarded as shit.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 16:28 GMT
#76
hi5 Smash.

Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all...
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 14 2011 16:29 GMT
#77
Why would you ever go 21 off/def with any current fotm supports?
hi
Vibes
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany144 Posts
November 14 2011 16:31 GMT
#78
29-0-1 akali ownage.... IM SO PUMPED FOR THIS!

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Just another Jaedong fanboy <3
Tyrran
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
France777 Posts
November 14 2011 16:31 GMT
#79
On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0



I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it.

EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy.


If you're not willing to give up greed, buy gold Quints, and put your masteries point elsewhere. I have to agree with Neo and Smash on that utility is vastly inferior than defense for support.

And to retake Smash argument : 1 point in Wealth = 20 gold. 1 point in Mental Force = 1 AP = 22 gold. Also mercenary (defense) can give you 8 gold per assist (for each point in it). Make 3 assists and its more valuable than Wealth. And i dont think support are that weak early game. Taric stun imba early game, Sona damage imba early game, Soraka sustain imba early game.
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 14 2011 16:31 GMT
#80
Utility wouldn't be bad if instead of adding more options they just crazily inflated the amount of points you need to get what old 21 utility automatically gave you.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 14 2011 16:34 GMT
#81
On November 15 2011 01:31 Tyrran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote:
On November 15 2011 01:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
The whole point of 21 Utility for Support was mainly for maximizing CV uptime. But Riot plans to nerf the shit out of CV so it's questionable if 21 Utility is worth it at all now. If CV gets dumped on, 21 Def looks amazing.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-1-0-3-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0



I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it.

EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy.


If you're not willing to give up greed, buy gold Quints, and put your masteries point elsewhere. I have to agree with Neo and Smash on that utility is vastly inferior than defense for support.

And to retake Smash argument : 1 point in Wealth = 20 gold. 1 point in Mental Force = 1 AP = 22 gold. Also mercenary (defense) can give you 8 gold per assist (for each point in it). Make 3 assists and its more valuable than Wealth. And i dont think support are that weak early game. Taric stun imba early game, Sona damage imba early game, Soraka sustain imba early game.



The thing is, give up gold quints and put something else there. And read my post again, it's not in terms of the champions being played as support, it's the SUPPORT ROLE that is weak in early game.
hi
birchy
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom68 Posts
November 14 2011 16:36 GMT
#82
Not sure how this will effect junglers, but combined with the new xp buff to jungle creeps and changes to spell i think junglers are gonna be deadly no more over committing :D
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:41:25
November 14 2011 16:39 GMT
#83
On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.

Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all...


Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on starting lanes than an extra 3 AD on AA.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 16:39 GMT
#84
On November 15 2011 01:29 Sponkz wrote:
Why would you ever go 21 off/def with any current fotm supports?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-0-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

just seems better than 21 util IMO.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 16:41 GMT
#85
On November 15 2011 01:39 ManyCookies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.

Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all...


Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on a low level lane than an extra 3 AD on AA.

or two?

how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions?

so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion?

really?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 16:45 GMT
#86
He's going to wait on the pool for 10 clicks, and show up to lane with many more potions because of all the gold quints greed, and wealth.
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:49:37
November 14 2011 16:46 GMT
#87
On November 15 2011 01:41 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:39 ManyCookies wrote:
On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.

Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all...


Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on a low level lane than an extra 3 AD on AA.

or two?

how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions?

so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion?

really?


If you're left with 25-30 gold (and wait 2-3 seconds at spawn for the 5 gold), then the extra 40 gold would net two health potions.

It's hardly a "MUST GET THIS NOW" mastery, I agree. But it is significantly more useful than a straight gold/utility analysis shows.


On November 15 2011 01:45 Sabin010 wrote:
He's going to wait on the pool for 10 clicks, and show up to lane with many more potions because of all the gold quints greed, and wealth.


Are you kidding? I'm just going to buy 14 Health Potions at the start, then AFK for two creep waves to get 20 Health Potions.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
November 14 2011 16:52 GMT
#88
Not exactly a pro-mastery analyzer but I was interested in masteries for jungle WW and as other people of said it seems kinda whatever you want. What I want to know is if this is retarded since it looks unorthodox numerically ^^ :
14/15/1
I passed up Runic Affinity which is probably the biggest thing missing and you can't go 14/9/Runic Affinity. I like the movespeed mastery in the def tree because WW is an auto-healer and normally above 70%. Really not sure how to put points between tier 1 and Initiator. Bladed Armor is really good and arm mres are good stats but other than that... not sure.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 16:54:35
November 14 2011 16:52 GMT
#89
Also, the whole point of greed was being crazy effiicent but takes a long time to make it worth it. Now they halfed the efficiency of it and made it a 4 point spell kinda silly.

I think the only people going for runic affinity on junglers are going to be ones who really want the movement speed as well because of how ridiculously better offense and defense trees are now.

They made swiftness less efficient now. Another one of riots oversteps I think. Utility too strong? BUFF THE SHIT OF OUT OTHER TREES NERF THE SHIT OUT OF UTILITY!
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 16:58 GMT
#90
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.

Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat?
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 14 2011 17:03 GMT
#91
On November 15 2011 01:39 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:29 Sponkz wrote:
Why would you ever go 21 off/def with any current fotm supports?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-3-0-0-3-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

just seems better than 21 util IMO.

I was thinking more of a dip down into def tree for movement speed to help roaming like this. With CV being nerfed, I think added mobility will be at a premium now. To think Janna can start with 8% movement speed at level 1 without items or buffs is crazy. Someone like Alistar or support Blitz could make pretty good use of this as well for roaming purposes. I don't like sacrificing greed for juggernaut on support, tho. The only thing I could see giving that up for is getting Mercenary for roaming and build like this. The lost gold from greed can be made up through assists, since they give just as much extra gold as kills with this mastery. That can be a source of extra ward money instead of greed. Mobility boots alistar with movement speed quints and these talents would be pretty damned scary.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 14 2011 17:09 GMT
#92
You need 1 assist every 80 seconds for Mercenary to be as good as Greed point for point. It's really a terrible mastery that only gets worse as you get better at the game.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 17:14:44
November 14 2011 17:13 GMT
#93
You mean 160 seconds right?

Edit: I do agree with you btw, especially since Greed is also pretty bad when these changes come tbh.
wat
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 14 2011 17:27 GMT
#94
I'd still go 21 in utility just for the summoner cooldown as a support.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 17:29 GMT
#95
On November 15 2011 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.

Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat?

I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far"

I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers).

I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 17:33 GMT
#96
I think the whole purpose of the changes was to make it better to go futher into the red and blue trees (or for people into conspiracies Riot wanted to nerf Jax's e with out being obvious about it). I was playing 21 utility on so many champions because of how good it is to have summoners off cd faster, how good cdr is, how good movement speed is and the flash cdr mastery. The incentive to move further into red and blue tree is there. I like how only 9 points in utility yeilds movement speed, reduced death timer, flash cdr, and full buff duration. This allows 21 points to be put into other trees while benefiting from some of the best parts of putting more than 9 points in green while still being able to go 21 offense/defense or a hybrid mix of the two.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 17:38:11
November 14 2011 17:37 GMT
#97
On November 15 2011 02:29 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.

Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat?

I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far"

I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers).

I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it.


Real semantics arguer... fk Smash.
Yes, you obviously spec for your role but come on. Presence of the Master vs Havoc or Tenacity? Ok, my point.
And I agree with your last statement.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 17:41 GMT
#98
Havoc and Tenacity both pretty good. They're also both always doing something. Presence of the Master is OP when you're using your summoners on every CD. But if you sit around with your flash up for 40 seconds, it didn't really matter if you had Presence of the Master or not. The main thing that makes Presence of the Master OP is fucking CV. FUCK CV, please remove from game, kthx. Shit like that that you can just use every CD goes crazy with presence of the master.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 14 2011 17:47 GMT
#99
On November 15 2011 02:09 Seuss wrote:
You need 1 assist every 80 seconds for Mercenary to be as good as Greed point for point. It's really a terrible mastery that only gets worse as you get better at the game.

Doesn't need to be as good as greed does, just needs to recoup some lost gold for not having it. It only costs 3 points for mercenary, whereas greed costs 4 points. The way I look at it, if I am roaming and go 1-0-3 at 12 minutes or something, then I am at least getting 100 gold for my efforts (I don't think this is an unreasonable scoreline for aggressive roaming, but not at all worth it for passive lane babysitting). Greed would give me 150 gold in that same timeframe with 3 talent points. It is worse, yeah, but you still need some extra gold. I don't know if the CDR in defensive tree would be worth it if you are going all the way down to 21 anyways. To be honest, when I play alistar, I only need my combo to initiate. I don't need cdr to initiate. Passive spammy champs like sona/soraka/janna would benefit, though.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 18:02:03
November 14 2011 17:59 GMT
#100
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

Woony
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany6657 Posts
November 14 2011 18:13 GMT
#101
On November 14 2011 19:26 TheYango wrote:
Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger.


Didn't they state they balanced all the masteries out gold wise with the remake?
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 18:18:34
November 14 2011 18:16 GMT
#102
pretty sure wealth is directed to supports..with 2 points in wealth, you could open a charm, 4 wards, and a pot

although i would probably just save it so i can get a gp5 item faster
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 18:24 GMT
#103
On November 15 2011 03:13 Woony wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2011 19:26 TheYango wrote:
Offense tree is deceptively stronger than it looks. If you math out the gold value on the boring flat-stat masteries, you find that Offense is way stronger than their Defense counterparts (Brute Force and Alacrity are worth 42 gold/point, Deadliness is worth 50 gold/point, compared to Resistance/Hardiness which are 34 gold/point, Durability, which is 4 gold per point per level--though interestingly Veteran's Scars is worth a very respectable 78 gold). The un-itemizable perks may be comparable (% ArPen, % Crit Dmg, and Executioner vs. CC redux, Initiator, % dmg redux), but in terms of the chaff you have to put points in to get there, Offense is stronger.


Didn't they state they balanced all the masteries out gold wise with the remake?

they did state that, but it's a lie. utility tree got dumped on, simple gold analysis has most of Utility at undervalued compared to offensive and defensive.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Woony
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany6657 Posts
November 14 2011 18:38 GMT
#104
Ultility is pretty trash for anyone except supports now. Need to buff greed/swiftness and probably buff/remake sage and wealth.

I mean just compare 21/0/9 vs. 9/0/21 for AP carries

~ 200 mana @ 18
0,5% movementspeed
3% spellvamp
5% EXP
6% CDR
15% Summoner CDR

VS

1,5% damage
18 AP @ 18
5% AP (!!!!)
6% damage @ targets below 40%
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 18:52 GMT
#105
22-7-1 on Garen looks legit.

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-0-4-1-4-0-1-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 18:56 GMT
#106
...

...

...

tower damage on Garen..?

1.5% damage on anyone..?

MPEN over ARPEN... ON GAREN!?

why are people so bad at just thinking about their specs in this game.....?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:00:59
November 14 2011 18:58 GMT
#107
Well 1.5% damage is probably better than crit and crit damage on garen since so much of your damage is your spin and ultimate. I'd get something like this; http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

I think mpen mastery combines well with executioner to make sure those ultimates finish the target when you need them to.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 18:59 GMT
#108
its for the ultimate bro. and auto q auto thats a bonus 30 damage to the tower. do that 3 times and thats 90 bonus damage plus the 1.5% its like 91 damage bro.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 18:59 GMT
#109
On November 15 2011 03:58 Slayer91 wrote:
Well 1.5% damage is probably better than crit and crit damage on garen since so much of your damage is your spin and ultimate. I'd get something like this; http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


you know your spin crits right?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:04:02
November 14 2011 19:02 GMT
#110
I guess. Only the bonus damage part though, you can just replace the 4% cdr and 10% mpen for the 4% crit and 10% crit damage if you want. No big deal.

Also health regen is debateable, kinda feel like new veteran scars is good lategame, never really feel like garens needs the sustain.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 19:04 GMT
#111
how about a 26-3-1

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-1-3-1-0-0-3-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 19:06 GMT
#112
So you'd take Crit for Garen's E but not the ArPen? Really?
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 19:10 GMT
#113
I still for the life of me can't figure out why Sunder is a tier 5 mastery now.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:15:32
November 14 2011 19:11 GMT
#114
Neo I changed it to run the arpen 10%, but early game the flat 6 is going to be better than 10% until they reach 60+ armour.

If you get Brutalizer ghostblade and another brutalizer you have a flat 41 penetration before the 10%. even if the guy is at 100 armour you're only shredding an additional 6 armour from the mastery.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 14 2011 19:12 GMT
#115
On November 15 2011 02:13 EquilasH wrote:
You mean 160 seconds right?

Edit: I do agree with you btw, especially since Greed is also pretty bad when these changes come tbh.


You're right, I was thinking gp5 when it's gp10. That's significantly less bad, but it's still bad. I'd much rather have Honor Guard or Enlightment hands down.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:18:09
November 14 2011 19:15 GMT
#116
On November 15 2011 04:11 Sabin010 wrote:
Neo I changed it to run the arpen 10%, but early game the flat 6 is going to be better than 10% until they reach 60+ armour.


You realize they stack right? Getting flat armour pen doesn't mean the 10% is useless. The crit works only on the bonus damage while the armour pen works on both and is unquestionably better.

On November 15 2011 04:11 Sabin010 wrote:
Neo I changed it to run the arpen 10%, but early game the flat 6 is going to be better than 10% until they reach 60+ armour.

If you get Brutalizer ghostblade and another brutalizer you have a flat 41 penetration before the 10%. even if the guy is at 100 armour you're only shredding an additional 6 armour from the mastery.


Yeah. And if you get 5 infinity edges that crit damage looking real good! Of course, 100 armour being the level of AD carry with wriggles, surely going to be nobody tankier than that in a top lane!
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
November 14 2011 19:20 GMT
#117
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0



9-12-9 Is something I want to try on my junglers, get the armor pen, get the defensive stats + the DBC, and get the runic in utility but idk, going down to 21 is just really powerful since that final slot is so good and things get pretty good on the way down.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:30:04
November 14 2011 19:25 GMT
#118
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 14 2011 19:27 GMT
#119
Except pretty much everyone worth a damn shows up to lane with 60-70+ armor against Garen at level 1, and it only goes up from there.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 19:34 GMT
#120
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're really, really getting points for all the wrong reasons...
Crit Chance because you can crit during spin? Magic Pen for Ulti and Sunfire Cape?
How is either of those better than ArPen on a bruiser? AS does seems worthless on Garen but if it's a prereq to 10% ArPen, it's suddenly more worth it than the Crit stats.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
November 14 2011 19:40 GMT
#121
irelia

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 19:42 GMT
#122
On November 15 2011 04:40 billy5000 wrote:
irelia

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


+1

This 9/21/0 is a lot stronger than the current 9/21/0 I currently run on Irelia.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:48:02
November 14 2011 19:43 GMT
#123
On November 15 2011 04:20 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0



9-12-9 Is something I want to try on my junglers, get the armor pen, get the defensive stats + the DBC, and get the runic in utility but idk, going down to 21 is just really powerful since that final slot is so good and things get pretty good on the way down.

Yeah I was just looking at this - not just for junglers. Theres really good reason for going 9 points in each tree
Offense - Spell pen / armour pen
Defense - veteran's scars / Bladed Armour
utility - buff duration
And then some really good 3-pt masteries at tier 3 (Havoc, Evasion, Transmutation).

I think we might see a lot more 9-9-9 + 3. At least for less focussed characters - the top of the defence and offence trees expecially have some really nice options. But Id consider going 9-9-12 on say Ryze since he doesnt benefit as much from AP (and he'll get maybe 5-10 ap out of archmage) and extra health and spell vamp would be really good.

Also, would there ever be a reason to take Vigor/Meditation? They seem to me to be strictly worse than the alternatives.
On November 14 2011 16:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
For Ryze...

Off tree: CDR, Magic Pen (AP not as useful)
Def tree: Health and Resists
Uti tree: Mana, Mana Regen, CDR

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-1-3-1

However, since Frozen Heart is a staple on Ryze and Blue buff typically goes on him too, you technically could skip on CDR in masteries and end up with:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-1-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

You'd hit Magic Pen, Mana, Spell Vamp and essential survivability masteries early up on Def tree.


Just saw this, I guess Ryze has been discussed a lot - but why would you take Vigor over Veteran's Scars/Durability?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:51:22
November 14 2011 19:47 GMT
#124
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen.

10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up.

Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank.

In other news, what do you guys think for pheonix udyr?
THE FASTEST DEER
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-1-3-0-4-0-2-1-0-0-0-3-2-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

THE GOLD FARMING DEER
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-3-3-3-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

LOL LETS CLEAR JUNGLE ASAP AND FARM RAGEBLADE DEER (okay this might be troll)
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-0-4-0-4-4-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Also, I think heavy offense tree is going to help out tiger udyr. You can also do some stuff like dorans blade start I reckon because Q E Q combo with dorans is going to do crazy fucking damage.

The only reason the gold farming deer build is in question is because you get fucking ridiculous amounts of assists compared to kills on pheonix udyr and utility blows balls. The flat mana isn't bad because you back so much as a jungler and you can't reasonable get the mana regen any more.

Also, if flash gets nerfed to shit that it's only viable to get it with the mastery and 21 utlity cause the cd is going to be EVEN longer, I'm thinking cleanse/smite might seem like a crazy stupid seeming idea but might be viable. You already have fucking crazy MS with initator+swiftness+movement quints+BEAR STANCE+possible FoN/Zeal/Trinity that cleansing exhausts/general CC might be just as effective for catching people/getting away and generally probably works better in teamfights and cd is crazy short compared to flash. Removing debuffs might be very good against certain champions as well. At the very least it removes those gay exhausts when you try to gank someone.

The whole offense tree seems to suck dick on pheonix udyr though, which is kinda sad.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 19:48 GMT
#125
On November 15 2011 04:43 Treadmill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:20 BlueBird. wrote:
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0



9-12-9 Is something I want to try on my junglers, get the armor pen, get the defensive stats + the DBC, and get the runic in utility but idk, going down to 21 is just really powerful since that final slot is so good and things get pretty good on the way down.

Yeah I was just looking at this - not just for junglers. Theres really good reason for going 9 points in each tree
Offense - Spell pen / armour pen
Defense - veteran's scars / Bladed Armour
utility - buff duration
And then some really good 3-pt masteries at tier 3 (Havoc, Evasion, Transmutation).

I think we might see a lot more 9-9-9 + 3. At least for less focussed characters - the top of the defence and offence trees expecially have some really nice options. But Id consider going 9-9-12 on say Ryze since he doesnt benefit as much from AP (and he'll get maybe 5-10 ap out of archmage) and extra health and spell vamp would be really good.

Actually for junglers defence tree looks really really good, especially if you don't need the experience mastery.

Would there ever be a reason to take Vigor/Meditation?


Top lane may want Vigor for sustainability. It'll just compound with Philo Stone build, vamp skills, etc.
Meditation isn't worth it compared to Swiftness, even AP mids, I'd take Swiftness. Maybe Mediation on Supports but that's about it.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
November 14 2011 19:53 GMT
#126
On November 15 2011 04:27 Sandster wrote:
Except pretty much everyone worth a damn shows up to lane with 60-70+ armor against Garen at level 1, and it only goes up from there.


I've been curious about this sort of armor numbers for a while. If you just rely on seals, you get:

15 base + 18 (cloth armor) + 6 (masteries) + 13 (seals) = 52 armor.

For the other runes you have Quints, (+13) Marks, (+8) and Glyphs (+6). How many runes is it really worth it to devote to armor?

Granted, the numbers on quints are quite decent but to get 70+ it seems like you have to devote 3/4 of your rune page to that one stat. Is it standard to have a rune page like that?
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 19:54 GMT
#127
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up.

no it doesn't.

multiple sources of % penetration have historically stacked multiplicatively, I see no reason why this would be different.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:57:22
November 14 2011 19:56 GMT
#128
On November 15 2011 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
The wealth mastery isn't supposed to be good because of the high gold value but because of the new options for starting items like vamp/dorans+1, regrowth+ward, cloth+3mp5+1 pot. probaby gives supports a lot more options as well that I'm not thinking of.

It opens up the least new options for supports because no support these days is starting with anything less than 2 wards and at least 1 pot, tying down at least 185 gold. Literally the only item option that it opens up is starting Cloth, and I'm pretty sure that Cloth is weaker than Faerie Charm anyway because of how Faerie builds to Philo.

New item options are only as good as the stat improvements they give you over old item starts. The improvement of Doran's + pot over other starting item options on non-supports is not worth 6 mastery points when 6 mastery points gets you insane stuff like 1 point Lethality.
Moderator
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 19:58:26
November 14 2011 19:57 GMT
#129
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.

And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now.

Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm.
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
November 14 2011 19:59 GMT
#130
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.


With LW and 10% arpen, your targets have 54% remaining armor, so you have 46% arpen (ignoring flat arpen).
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:05:20
November 14 2011 20:01 GMT
#131
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


I think 9/12/9 is reasonable for junglers that don't care about crit. On physical damage autoattack junglers, Lethality is too insane right now at one point. IMO it outshines Executioner as the capstone mastery of the Offense tree.

Turn a 3 point mastery that was already extremely good into a 1 point mastery? What was Riot thinking...

On November 15 2011 04:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're really, really getting points for all the wrong reasons...
Crit Chance because you can crit during spin? Magic Pen for Ulti and Sunfire Cape?
How is either of those better than ArPen on a bruiser? AS does seems worthless on Garen but if it's a prereq to 10% ArPen, it's suddenly more worth it than the Crit stats.

Personally I would get the ArPen and crit. Lethality is so efficient at 1 point that it's still good for someone who only gets incidental crit from Atma's.
Moderator
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 20:02 GMT
#132
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.

And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now.

Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm.


Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem.
It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 20:02 GMT
#133
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.

And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now.

Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm.

...

...

multiplicative the other way.

like

40% pen

they have 60% armor left

10% more pen only pens on that last 60% = 6%

46% pen.

like, void staff + old archaic mastery was

40% + 15% = 49%.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:04:14
November 14 2011 20:03 GMT
#134
Executioner is such an AP carry thing it's absurd. Like on people like karthus, kassadin, leblanc, annie, heck all the burst damage casters rely so much on their combo getting those kills.

On November 15 2011 05:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.

And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now.

Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm.


Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem.
It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point.


I had no idea how much XP 40 was, I just assumed they made it useful.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 20:04 GMT
#135
Pantheon gonna hit so hard when you're sub 15% now, lol.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 20:06 GMT
#136
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen.

10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up.

Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank.


I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs.
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
November 14 2011 20:06 GMT
#137
On November 15 2011 05:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


I think 9/12/9 is reasonable for junglers that don't care about crit. On physical damage autoattack junglers, Lethality is too insane right now at one point. IMO it outshines Executioner as the capstone mastery of the Offense tree.

Turn a 3 point mastery that was already extremely good into a 1 point mastery? What was Riot thinking...

Except its not exactly a 1- point mastery. Its more like a 5-point mastery that gets you 4% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Its still good though, but I think that if you were just looking at deadliness on its own it maybe wouldn't be worth it, so you have to put points into a less-valuable mastery to get Lethality.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:10:03
November 14 2011 20:08 GMT
#138
On November 15 2011 05:06 Sabin010 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen.

10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up.

Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank.


I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs.


Why would you want sunfire atmas over warmogs atmas?
Whatever damage you get from sunfire is outshined by the AD from warmogs. Health is really good on garen because of courage and if you're getting force of nature then you have to appreciate the regen from warmogs is almost as much. If you get LW you have so much arpen that getting more physical damage is better than the 35 magic damage per second and it scales with the crit on your spin better as well.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 14 2011 20:09 GMT
#139
On November 15 2011 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
Pantheon gonna hit so hard when you're sub 15% now, lol.


Trynd gonna love his 21 Off even more now too.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:16:59
November 14 2011 20:09 GMT
#140
On November 15 2011 05:06 Sabin010 wrote:
I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs.

Ok...and 10% ArPen will give you vastly more damage when spinning than 10% MPen.

Like, 10% MPen is going to boost something that does 35 damage per second by about 7%. 10% ArPen is going to apply the same multiplicative benefit to something that does 350 damage per second. How is this even a question?

On November 15 2011 05:06 Treadmill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 05:01 TheYango wrote:
On November 15 2011 02:59 volcryn wrote:
So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%

First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration

are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x

is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0


I think 9/12/9 is reasonable for junglers that don't care about crit. On physical damage autoattack junglers, Lethality is too insane right now at one point. IMO it outshines Executioner as the capstone mastery of the Offense tree.

Turn a 3 point mastery that was already extremely good into a 1 point mastery? What was Riot thinking...

Except its not exactly a 1- point mastery. Its more like a 5-point mastery that gets you 4% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Its still good though, but I think that if you were just looking at deadliness on its own it maybe wouldn't be worth it, so you have to put points into a less-valuable mastery to get Lethality.

I would worry about that more if Deadliness wasn't worth 50 gold/point, meaning that even without the benefit of opening Lethality, it's already one of the more efficient masteries in the entire tree.

For Deadliness->Lethality to not be worth their insane point-efficiency, you basically have to not want crit AT ALL. Even AD casters that get Atma's probably end up with enough crit and make enough autoattacks for it to be worthwhile.
Moderator
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:15:57
November 14 2011 20:13 GMT
#141
On November 15 2011 04:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:40 billy5000 wrote:
irelia

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


+1

This 9/21/0 is a lot stronger than the current 9/21/0 I currently run on Irelia.


You'd really skip veteran scars for the health regen and evasion? Man, everyone really hates that. I can see the health regen if you're doing dorans shield instead of philo and you kinda want a bit more, but evasion I'd only use against like full AoE teamcomps. I'm already questioning the -1.5% damage sometimes, it feels so small when I usually prefered to get 0/9/21 on my solo tops because the 4% damage from defense was nice but the rest of the tree was so trash.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:16:01
November 14 2011 20:15 GMT
#142
On November 15 2011 05:13 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
On November 15 2011 04:40 billy5000 wrote:
irelia

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-3-0-0-3-0-0-2-3-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


+1

This 9/21/0 is a lot stronger than the current 9/21/0 I currently run on Irelia.


You'd really skip veteran scars for the health regen and evasion? Man, everyone really hates that.

Mostly because people haven't seen the math where new Veteran's Scars is the most efficient itemizable stat mastery across all 3 trees by a margin of like 20 gold.
Moderator
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:17:13
November 14 2011 20:16 GMT
#143
I dunno the first thing I did when trying to figure out how good it was took like 10 seconds on run-->calc to figure out compared to the 6 armour//6 mr masteries and it was like twice as good. Although of course it's a level 18 thing like the CDR.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 14 2011 20:19 GMT
#144
not counting the intangible ones.

and you have to spend 4 extra points to get there.

it's still really good though, I dunno why people are obsessing over 3 hp regen, each point in SoS started out at like over 1 HP/5 and grew quite a bit over laning, even on low mana pool characters. 1 hp/5/point isn't nearly good enough. SoS was just good because it was A LOT better than 1hp/5/point.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Prinate
Profile Joined October 2010
United States182 Posts
November 14 2011 20:19 GMT
#145
On November 15 2011 05:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 04:57 Slayer91 wrote:
Well, doesn't that mean you get 54% arpen?. Woah, that's insanely strong.

And yeah, you're probably right that having to spend so many points to get it is stupid compared to how much good shit you can get now.

Sage might be an interesting stat for supports because they tend to fall behind in levels once the laning phase is over and they stop following their AD to farm.


Sage is laughable. :< It could totally use a buff, +40 is like a joke early game. Like someone said earlier, that's not even a mini golem.
It's only saving grace (compared to something like Mercenary) is that Sage is tier 4 and only a single point.


Wouldn't the skill make like... 1000x more sense if it scaled ## bonus xp / level?

By designing it to be a flat amount, it inherently gets less useful as the game length continues. So the design philosophy (one would assume) must be to balance the mastery towards a point in the game... But then they give so little xp that it's not relevant to begin with.

If it was OP, that would at least generate more interesting strategic decisions in game - like it being more beneficial for the team to have jungle gank bot (assuming support takes Sage) over perhaps a more advantageous lane.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 14 2011 20:21 GMT
#146
On November 15 2011 05:19 Mogwai wrote:
not counting the intangible ones.

and you have to spend 4 extra points to get there.

it's still really good though, I dunno why people are obsessing over 3 hp regen, each point in SoS started out at like over 1 HP/5 and grew quite a bit over laning, even on low mana pool characters. 1 hp/5/point isn't nearly good enough. SoS was just good because it was A LOT better than 1hp/5/point.

The 4 points to get there aren't bad either. 1.5 hp/level breaks even with the "good" flat stat masteries (e.g. 1st tier offense ones that are worth 42 gold/point) on gold value at level 10. If you consider that when we look at runes, that's about where we expect good per-level runes to break even (e.g. MR vs. MR/level), that means that the HP/level mastery's gold value is where it should be, and is better than the armor/MR masteries.
Moderator
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 14 2011 20:24 GMT
#147
The reason I don't like things like health regen quints and masteries is because generally they are compareable efficiency to the 15 health regen pedant but if you buy that the ONLY options out of it are fucking stupidly efficient items if you count the regen as compareable to armour or magic resist or health. Warmogs, force of nature and philo. If you turned the regen into a gold equivalent amount of say armour we're talking like, 1305 worth of gold on warmogs regen which would be 81 armour.
The reason they are so efficient is that regen is so bad lategame so I feel like minimizing the amount I get from runes/masteries when the regen I get from items becomes basically free on my items I build out of it.
Firesilver
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom1190 Posts
November 14 2011 20:30 GMT
#148
Really liking the new mastery pages, can't wait for them to be implemented.
Caster at IMBA.tv -- www.twitter.com/IMBAFiresilver -- www.youtube.com/FiresilverTV
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
November 14 2011 20:33 GMT
#149
Well arcane knowledge got nerfed 5% and the 10% arpen is pretty big. I can see %arpen AD champions being more useful, and %arpen AP champions being less useful, but what do I know. I'm a bronzie at this game.

Wealth and juggernaut seem interesting. You might see a doran's resurgence if people can buy a health pot. Otherwise, most of the masteries seem to be really nerfed. This'll only make the game more boring for people who aren't level 30 yet like me.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 14 2011 20:36 GMT
#150
On November 15 2011 05:30 Firesilver wrote:
Really liking the new mastery pages, can't wait for them to be implemented.


They're so good my graphics card is going to explode. Oh wait it already did. I don't know why my PC still works for firefox and shit though, what a beast.

Also, I always felt like AP carries where way out of whack strong and AD carries kinda felt meh if they aren't super fed, so I like the change. There are tools like randuins and frozen heart and ninja tabi to deal with LW AD carries but you were always shit out of luck with AP carries with void staff. You still are but they'll be a little less brutal I guess.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 20:39 GMT
#151
On November 15 2011 05:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 05:06 Sabin010 wrote:
On November 15 2011 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
On November 15 2011 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:
the crit damage won't stack on the IEs. What are you trying to say? I feel veteran scars to be a poor mastery for late game as 100 health is not that much. Garen won't benefit from attackspeed as much because most of his damage is coming from auto attack, q, e combo. dumping 5 points to get 10% armour pen and 4% attackspeed just seems like it isn't worth it as much as you would think. We have seen what Garen does with out 10% armour pen, and Last whisper is always an option for later in the game if some one has stacked armour.

10% magic pen is also good if you plan on buying sunfire cape.


You're just speaking in nonsense terms like "not that much" "just get last whisper if they have lots of armour". This discussion is all about hard numbers because masteries don't make that huge of a difference that they are always noticeable. Also, sunfire cape is pretty horrible on garen.

10% Armour pen stacks additively with LW meaning if there was a reason to get LW theres a reason to get that mastery. Also, its 5 points for 4% cdr and 10% magic pen and they're not exactly the best stats for garen. I don't see people going cdr boots and void staff garen. Your damage is like 80-90% physical damage how you can even argue for the mpen mastery is beyond me. CDR is a bit useful but so if attack speed since if you have really high AD and your Q and E are on CD you get attacks in faster also cdr makes your Q and E come up slightly faster. It's a bit of a toss up.

Veteran scars is around 400 gold value lategame which is pretty good for 5 points, the armour and magic resist is 200 gold value for 6 points. I'd normally say it's probably better than 4% crit and 10% crit damage but I'm not totally sure. If you're going atmas and lategame IE you could say the value or crit and crit damage is higher but if you get IE you really want the extra tank.


I go Atma's sunfire and a late game IE. Final build usually looks like Sunfire, Atmas, IE, LW/GhostBlade, FoN. Usually you try to end the game before that point, but that is my ideal late game build. If you're going to try to win in the mid game the build is usually something like Brutalizer, Hexdrinker, Ghostblade, Atmas, SunfireCape. You can tell me running Magic pen and CDR is worse, but I'm going to end up running something like 26-3-1 and taking both. The reason I like sunfire is to have more aoe damage while spinning, and its cheaper than Frozen mallet or Warmogs.


Why would you want sunfire atmas over warmogs atmas?
Whatever damage you get from sunfire is outshined by the AD from warmogs. Health is really good on garen because of courage and if you're getting force of nature then you have to appreciate the regen from warmogs is almost as much. If you get LW you have so much arpen that getting more physical damage is better than the 35 magic damage per second and it scales with the crit on your spin better as well.


With Atma's Warmogs adds 28 AD while the Sunfire adds 35 magic dps and 9 AD. So warmogs adds 39 damage to the spin, while sunfire is adding 12 to the spin and 35 in magic damage per second. Unless im missing something sunfire is giving more damage faster and for less money. Last whisper is the last item purchased and if you're playing Garen you really want to end the game before everybody is lvl 18 and chugging triple pots.


Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:42:12
November 14 2011 20:41 GMT
#152
Something something about warmogs giving 1000 more HP than sunfire cape, which is the defensive stat Garen scales with considering his W.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 20:50 GMT
#153
Something about having a built in cleanse from slows with e, a movement speed boost with q, the fact if some one is going to melee you they're going to eat silence and a lot of dps from e, and a built in regen steroid to keep your health high makes me think the 1000 hp is just over kill on defense. I think Garen is to be played as a burster and not a guy trying to get focused in the middle of everything.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:54:00
November 14 2011 20:51 GMT
#154
Garen:
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

I don't know why you would get the MPen mastery, even if you like the CDR. It'll translate into like 2 extra damage per tick from Sunfire Cape--which is less than the Judgment damage you'll get from the health masteries in defense. You could also probably get Runic Affinity instead of the defense stuff if you really want it, but that's harder to compare.

On November 15 2011 05:50 Sabin010 wrote:
Something about having a built in cleanse from slows with e, a movement speed boost with q, the fact if some one is going to melee you they're going to eat silence and a lot of dps from e, and a built in regen steroid to keep your health high makes me think the 1000 hp is just over kill on defense. I think Garen is to be played as a burster and not a guy trying to get focused in the middle of everything.

Then why are you building Sunfire/Atmas instead of BT stacking? There is more than one way to itemize Garen, but at least be consistent with the way you're doing it. Either you build him raw damage or you build him tanky. But you don't build him tanky and go "he should be a burster!" when you made the conscious decision NOT to build him that way.
Moderator
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
November 14 2011 20:54 GMT
#155
Personally I would be ok with utility being worse than the other trees, the support characters as a whole are pretty grossly op so it's fine if they take a hit.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 20:57:33
November 14 2011 20:55 GMT
#156
The Mpen is for his ultimate. If some one stacks 100 mr you're going to need to have them way below 1/4 hp to use R for a kill.

How would you build him?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 14 2011 20:56 GMT
#157
On November 15 2011 05:55 Sabin010 wrote:
The Mpen is for his ultimate. If some one stacks 100 mr you're going to need to have them way below 1/4 hp to use R for a kill.

10% MPen is like a 4% damage increase vs. 100 MR targets. Not hugely compelling on a champ with no other sources of magic damage.
Moderator
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 21:04 GMT
#158
On November 15 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:
Garen:
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-4-0-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-2-2-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

I don't know why you would get the MPen mastery, even if you like the CDR. It'll translate into like 2 extra damage per tick from Sunfire Cape--which is less than the Judgment damage you'll get from the health masteries in defense. You could also probably get Runic Affinity instead of the defense stuff if you really want it, but that's harder to compare.

Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 05:50 Sabin010 wrote:
Something about having a built in cleanse from slows with e, a movement speed boost with q, the fact if some one is going to melee you they're going to eat silence and a lot of dps from e, and a built in regen steroid to keep your health high makes me think the 1000 hp is just over kill on defense. I think Garen is to be played as a burster and not a guy trying to get focused in the middle of everything.

Then why are you building Sunfire/Atmas instead of BT stacking? There is more than one way to itemize Garen, but at least be consistent with the way you're doing it. Either you build him raw damage or you build him tanky. But you don't build him tanky and go "he should be a burster!" when you made the conscious decision NOT to build him that way.

It depends upon the flow of the game. Alot of times I get hex drinker, brutalizer, dorans blade, ghost blade and boots, but the game is over at that point. I mean sunfire plays more for an later mid game while there is no question warmogs scales for the late late game. If I think we can end it in the mid game the ghost blade and another brutalizer with boots hexdrinker and some dorans blades and start popping elixers.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 14 2011 21:04 GMT
#159
You're seriously going to spend 5 mastery points just for your ult? Your ult isn't even the main source of your damage.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
November 14 2011 21:05 GMT
#160
its really only one point because he benefits greatly from cdr as he can just spam everything when its off cd.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 14 2011 21:05 GMT
#161
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.
volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 14 2011 21:16 GMT
#162
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 14 2011 21:18 GMT
#163
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


21/9 looks really appealing. You don't need Bladed Armor, and the extra health from Veteran's Scars is really good for Noc.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 14 2011 21:23 GMT
#164
The only reason I see to go utility now is to go flash, good hands, movespeed, runic afinity. Other than that everything is just kinda meh.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 14 2011 21:28 GMT
#165
On November 15 2011 06:16 volcryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game

Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him.
Moderator
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 14 2011 21:28 GMT
#166
Ok, I have decided on my nocturne build:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne.

volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 14 2011 21:33 GMT
#167
On November 15 2011 06:28 TheYango wrote:
Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him.


which is why I posted it as a thought and wanted feedback, as im trying to find the alternatives
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 22:28:35
November 14 2011 22:26 GMT
#168
On November 15 2011 06:28 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, I have decided on my nocturne build:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne.


Noc also is a lot less dependant on blue buff than other junglers so I agree you can sacrifice the buff duration.

Would it be reasonable, though, to go cut Executioner for Bladed Armour? I could even see something like 15/15/0 on Noc:
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-4-0-0-1-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
With the last point in Havoc could go a variety of places (maybe to the summoner spell buff of your second summoner).
Edit: I think it'd come down to whether you think the arm pen or the movement speed is better.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
November 14 2011 22:49 GMT
#169
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/
STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 01:15:47
November 15 2011 01:11 GMT
#170
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

Something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-2-0-3-0-1-3-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 15 2011 01:15 GMT
#171
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.
Moderator
STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
November 15 2011 01:33 GMT
#172
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 01:49:36
November 15 2011 01:49 GMT
#173
If you are going down the 21-defense path for support, the issue is that both initiator and enlightenment are better than the fifth tier masteries (imo), which means that at most you'll have 2 points to put into either merc or honor guard. 2 points into merc = 16g per assist, and 2 points into honor guard = 1% damage reduction. Either way doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference.

Personally I would take the 1% damage reduction just because it's there and happens to synergize with the rest of the masteries whereas merc doesn't.

Xirt
Profile Joined April 2009
Scotland52 Posts
November 15 2011 01:51 GMT
#174
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem


The problem is that you get the gold too late in the game for it to make any difference. If you get good value out of it you were going to win anyway.
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 15 2011 02:02 GMT
#175
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 15 2011 02:05 GMT
#176
Sage is only useful for ARAM trlolol
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
November 15 2011 02:05 GMT
#177
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote:
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.

I think the reason is that defence and offence got so much better that utility is relatively much weaker.
volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 15 2011 02:07 GMT
#178
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote:
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.


because power level in both offense and defense skyrocketed in comparison (more signs of the continuing power creep =(
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 15 2011 02:14 GMT
#179
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem

Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 02:18:33
November 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#180
So I've finally given these a look and will probably just end up reiterating what other people already found out, with that said this is what I'll initially run on the heroes i commonly solo q with:

0/21/9 Swain: Considering running cleanse/heal if they do indeed buff cleanse back to removing ignite/exhaust. Probably go something similar on Ryze since he also tends to be in the middle of fights. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-2-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-2-1-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

21/9/0 Karthus/Annie/Cass: Not much diff between going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, just depends how reliant on blue I am.

30/0/0 Jax: Cause going 30 pts in a tree sounds badass. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Don't know why this extra space under my post so im editing this in to not look foolish.




TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 02:23:01
November 15 2011 02:22 GMT
#181
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem

1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters.

2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of.

On November 15 2011 11:14 Gooey wrote:
Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds.

What?

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game.
Moderator
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
November 15 2011 02:26 GMT
#182
I don't think he's talking about high level play, yango. >.>
In low lvl/normals you see lots of kills/game which is the only place such masteries will work.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 15 2011 02:28 GMT
#183
On November 15 2011 11:17 mrgerry wrote:
So I've finally given these a look and will probably just end up reiterating what other people already found out, with that said this is what I'll initially run on the heroes i commonly solo q with:

0/21/9 Swain: Considering running cleanse/heal if they do indeed buff cleanse back to removing ignite/exhaust. Probably go something similar on Ryze since he also tends to be in the middle of fights. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-2-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-2-1-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

21/9/0 Karthus/Annie/Cass: Not much diff between going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, just depends how reliant on blue I am.

30/0/0 Jax: Cause going 30 pts in a tree sounds badass. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Don't know why this extra space under my post so im editing this in to not look foolish.





I think for swain, you still need to run either ghost or flash, since he really doesn't have much of a gap closer or initiate. He is kinda weak until you get Rylia's on him during the mid game. Cleanse would definitely be a standard on him now, though. CC removal and immunity would be a premium on him. Cleanse/Flash or Cleanse/Ghost would be me go to if I were to play swain. That general talent setup would be fine (with preference choices in T1 Utility).
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 02:49:46
November 15 2011 02:48 GMT
#184
On November 15 2011 11:22 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem

1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters.

2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of.

Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 11:14 Gooey wrote:
Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds.

What?

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game.

If you are playing a super passive lane, yeah. It's not going to work on every champion, or every playstyle. I said it earlier how it would be best running it on an aggressive support with roaming capabilities, like an alistar or blitz, even. If I see that all of the champions and lane matchups are going to sit on their ass and farm for the first 20 minutes of the game and only having there be 2-3 hero kills total with only 1 dragon kill, then of course I wouldn't do this. All kills don't have to come from duo lane, nor are you chained permanently to that lane. 4 kills might be too much, so even if it is just 2 (let's say 1 kill lane and 1 kill dragon), 150g missing that early on might not be as bad, and you can make that up with the 2 measly kills (assuming 75g from 2 assists each or something like that). If you are on a support champ that is strong in the mid/early game like alistar anyways, you will need to be the one getting the kills to compete against a sona/janna later on, who don't necessarily need early kills. The extra money you get from assists in the mid game, from 12-22 will get close to matching greed for the mid-game interval.

Once again, not at all intending for this to be run on an AD carry hugging babysitter. I'm not stupid ^^. The defense tree helps you be more aggressive early on with the added movement speed, HP, damage reduction, and crowd control reduction, and I'd rather have the ability to earn extra money in the game than 1.5% dmg reduction. I'm not trying to say "go mercenary because it's better than greed".
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
November 15 2011 02:50 GMT
#185
Swain isn't much of a chaser in general but ghost sounds fun. Did Riot give a reason to why they buffing cleanse back? It will just kill off ignite again since you don't want to play at a disadvantage in a ignite v cleanse situation mid. I was under the impression that Riot was trying to make lanes more aggressive. -___-
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
November 15 2011 03:34 GMT
#186
Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?

No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
tissue
Profile Joined April 2009
Malaysia441 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 05:30:19
November 15 2011 05:29 GMT
#187
One thing I like about the new mastery tree is that I can consider speccing cheaply to improve my last hitting. I mean, sure every point builds up to one deeper down, but if I pick up more last hits, I'll make up for the lost stats. For example taking 2AD/+4 minion damage on a 9/0/21 caster, passing up 4 AP. The 6 bonus damage might help last hitting a bunch, especially under tower early on when you need to hit melee minions twice instead of hit-tower-hit.
chocolatebunny
Profile Joined September 2011
301 Posts
November 15 2011 06:20 GMT
#188
On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote:
Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?

No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.


what about boots and 5 pots O.O some people wait in base 15 seconds to get 4th pot with boots. now, they can wait 10 seconds and get 2 more pots with boots.

idk. that was the first thing that came to mind when i say the additional 40 gold.
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 15 2011 06:26 GMT
#189
On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote:
Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?

No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.


I'd say everyone who would start Doran's Ring should take 21 offense for insane stats instead.
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 15 2011 16:32 GMT
#190
What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive?
Woony
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany6657 Posts
November 15 2011 16:39 GMT
#191
On November 16 2011 01:32 rigwarl wrote:
What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive?


If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 15 2011 17:45 GMT
#192
On November 16 2011 01:39 Woony wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 01:32 rigwarl wrote:
What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive?


If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc.

Havoc breaks even with Vampirism on gold value (assuming your DPS is primarily autoattacks--which is a fair assumption if you're considering Vampirism at all) at about 227 AD--a reasonable enough point to make it personal preference, IMO.
Moderator
Offhand
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1869 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 17:54:40
November 15 2011 17:53 GMT
#193
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.

E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows
broz0rs
Profile Joined July 2008
United States2294 Posts
November 15 2011 20:13 GMT
#194
On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.

E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows


what happened to dodge??
Dgiese
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2687 Posts
November 15 2011 20:30 GMT
#195
On November 16 2011 05:13 broz0rs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.

E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows


what happened to dodge??


They took out nimbleness.
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
November 16 2011 13:47 GMT
#196
Any thoughts on whether smite mastery is worth it? It doesn't reduce cooldown, and it means you can't get runic mastery and 21 offence, but it could be quite a bit of extra gold. I'm experimenting with a 12/9/9 build atm, with runic mastery from utility and mini-rammus from defence.

On November 16 2011 05:30 Dgiese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 05:13 broz0rs wrote:
On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.

E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows


what happened to dodge??


They took out nimbleness.


RIP
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
November 16 2011 14:17 GMT
#197
So what do people think about going 14 offense on champions that do decent amounts of both physical and magic damage junglers, such as
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-0-0-0-3-1-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
or
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-0-1-1-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
?

(Can't decide exactly where the defense tree stuff should go!)
necrosed
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil885 Posts
November 16 2011 14:19 GMT
#198
Are they refunding people who have dodge seals? I mean, they're pretty expensive and useless now that we don't have nimbleness.
Shadow of his former self.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
November 16 2011 14:19 GMT
#199
Should i run some 9/21/0 setup on singed? I ran 0/30/0 yesterday cuz i dunno wtf to do on him

Should i go for the magic pen is it too far down?

Getting used to this new trees is kind of rough ~_~
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 15:18:27
November 16 2011 15:16 GMT
#200
On November 16 2011 23:19 necrosed wrote:
Are they refunding people who have dodge seals? I mean, they're pretty expensive and useless now that we don't have nimbleness.


Dodge isn´t obsolete just yet. It still is the best defense against autoattacks if you have >100 Armor. We get a refund once dodge literally stops existing.

I´d say 0/21/9 or 1/21/8 since Singed isn´t about the DPS but about the trolling and MS is better for that.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
November 16 2011 15:16 GMT
#201
with jungle yi, 24/6 /0 masteries

with cloth armor+5 pots i could do wraithjack+stealing their red with smite+our wolves, +wraiths, +red + golems + blue +wolves +wraiths without going back

wtf

i didnt even proc alpha strike
And all is illuminated.
Prinate
Profile Joined October 2010
United States182 Posts
November 16 2011 15:23 GMT
#202
First off, trying to post this from my phone, so apologies for typos or errors.

There are a few people talking about gold cost for masteries, but I haven't seen a real list. Plus, I expect quite a few people don't fully understand the concept. So below is a quick explanation and the basic stats for most masteries. Masteries listed as N/A or ?? mean that either there isn't a good comparison, value is too variable, or I simply didn't want to do the math.

If any mathcrafters have suggestions or see an error, let me know.

Explanation: The simplest way to look at the value of the masteries is with replacement/opportunity cost. The idea being that if you do not take mastery X, what would it cost you in the game to make up for that stat (assuming you want it). An example: Say that I know I want AD on my champion. In game, the simplest/easiest direct way to get the stat is a long sword. 10 AD, 415 gold. This means that each point of AD is worth 41.5 gold. So each point in the Brute Force (+1AD) is equivalently worth 41.5 gold. Yes, there are more efficient purchases later in the game, but we are looking for direct comparisons when possible.

Stats with ** mean they had to be derived from an item with more than 1 stat, but this is still the most direct source that I can find and still calculates. Some stats can't be derived at all.

Stats with ^^ mean they were derived from replacing the mastery benefit with runes. This is... fuzzy math at best.

Offense:
T1 Summoner's Wrath: N/A
T1 Brute Force (+1/2/3 Attack Damage): 41.5g/pt
T1 Mental Force (+1/2/3/4 Ability Power): 21.75g/pt
T1 Butcher (basic atk: 2/4 bonus damage to min/mon): ??
T2 Alacrity (+1.5/3/4.5/6% attack speed): 42g/pt
T2 Sorcery (+1/2/3/4% Cooldown reduction): 32.2g** /pt
T2 Demolitionist (Basic atk deal 10 bonus damage to towers): N/A
T3 Deadliness (+1/2/3/4% Crit chance): 50g/pt
T3 Weapon Expertise (+10% ARpen): 157.g** /pt
T3 Arcane Knowledge (+10% MRpen): 193g** /pt
T3 Havoc (Inc damage by .5/1/1.5%): ??
T4 Lethality (10% crit dmg): N/A (Unless compared to furor runes. IE
math doesn't work)
T4 Vampirism (1/2/3% Life steal): 37.5g/pt
T4 Blast (0.25/0.5/0.75/1 AP/lvl = 4.5/9/13.5/18 AP at 18): At lvl 1,
5.4375g/pt. At lvl 6, 32.625g/pt. At lvl 12, 65.25g/pt. At lvl 18,
97.875g/pt [Per AP calcs]
T5 Sunder (+2/4/6 Arpen): N/A (Item calc w/ Brutalizer doesn't work.
Could compare ARpen runes)
T5 Archmage (Inc AP 1.25/2.5/3.75/5%) At 50 AP: .625 bonus AP, 13.6g/pt.
At 100 AP: 1.25 ap, 27.2g/pt. At 200 AP: 2.5ap, 54.4g/pt. At 300AP:
3.75ap, 81.56g/pt. At 400ap: 108.75g/pt [Per AP rates, given at various
levels, per point]
T6 Executioner (Inc damage by 6% vs targets w/ <40% health): N/A

Defense:
T1 Summoner's Resolve: N/A
T1 Resistance (+2/4/6 Mres): 33.3g/pt
T1 Hardiness (+2/4/6 Armor): 33.3g/pt
T1 Tough Skin (Reduces min/mon dmg by 1/ 2): ??
T2 Durability (+1.5/3/4.5/6 Health/lvl = 27/54/81/108 health at 18): At
lvl 1: 4g/pt. At lvl 6: 23.76g/pt. At lvl 12: 47.52g/pt. At lvl 18:
71.28g/pt [Per health rates]
T2 Vigor (+1/2/3 Hp5): 31.25g/pt (29g/pt compared to regrowth pendant)
T3 Indomitable (Reduces inc damage by 1/ 2): ??
T3 Veteran's scars (+30 health): 79.17g/pt
T3 Evasion (Reduces dmg by AOE by 1/2/3%): N/A
T3 Bladed Armor (Returns 6 dmg against min/mon attacks): N/A
T4 Siege Commander (Reduces armor of towers by 10): N/A
T4 Initiator (Increases move speed by 1/2/3% when >70% health): Rune
cost: 45.76g^^/pt . (Boots value default equivalent to ~21-23g/pt at
base movement speed)
T4 Enlightenment (+.15/.3/.45% CDR/lvl = 2.7/5.4/8.1% CDR at 18): At lvl
1: 4.83g**/pt. At lvl 6: 29g**/pt. At lvl 12: 58g**/pt. At lvl 18:
87g**/pt.
T5 Honor Guard (Reduces dmg taken by .5/1/1.5%): N/A
T5 Mercenary (Gain 8/16/24 gold per kill/assist): N/A
T6 Juggernaut (Inc max health by 3%, reduces duration of disables by
10%):

Utility:
T1 Summoner's Insight: N/A
T1 Good Hands (Reduces time spent dead by 4/7/10%): N/A
T1 Expanded Mind (+4/8/12 mana/lvl = 72/144/216 mana at 18 or 4/7/10
energy): At lvl 1: 8g/pt. At lvl 6: 48g/pt. At lvl 12: 96g/pt. At lvl
18: 144g/pt.
T1 Improved Recall: N/A
T2 Swiftness (+.5/1/1.5/2% move speed): N/A (Could compare quints. Boots
value default equivalent to ~21-23g/pt at base movement speed)
T2 Meditation (+1/2/3 mp5): 60g/point (55.7g/pt compared to Meki
Pendant)
T2 Scout (Increase vision range of wards by 5%): N/A
T3 Greed (.5/1/1.5/2 Gp10): 16.5g**/pt
T3 Transmutation (+1/2/3% spell vamp): 22g**/pt
T3 Runic Affinity (Duration inc of monster buff by 20%): N/A
T4 Wealth (Increases starting gold by 20/40): N/A
T4 Awareness (Increases exp gained by 1.25/2.5/3.75/5%): Rune cost:
51.48g^^/pt. 3 quint spots required to match opportunity (quints give
6%.) Used flat health quint as default value of quint spot.
T4 Sage (Gain 40 bonus exp per kill/assist): N/A
T5 Perseverance (Increases health/mana regen by 3/6/9%): N/A
T5 Intelligence (+2/4/6% CDR): 64.4g** /pt
T6 Mastermind (Reduces CD of summoner spells by 15%): N/A
Awesomo
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands206 Posts
November 16 2011 18:47 GMT
#203
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.
I have an ice-cold beer, everything is possible.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 18:49:04
November 16 2011 18:47 GMT
#204
It´s misleading though since you spend mastery points on them, not gold. On top of that the Tier structure means that a given mastery only competes with equal and lower tiered mastery points, never higher ones.

@ above: it´s a bug in the display, not the stat allocation unfortunately. You can´t cheat yourself better stats ingame, illegal points are threated as unspend.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
November 16 2011 18:54 GMT
#205
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote:
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.



OP
i call abuse right there
And all is illuminated.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 16 2011 18:56 GMT
#206
@Prinate:
You can't value Wealth properly? Funneh.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 16 2011 19:03 GMT
#207
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote:
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.


FIGURE IT OUT, I NEED A 30/30/30 PAGE!
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 16 2011 19:14 GMT
#208
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote:
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.

UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap...
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
November 16 2011 19:17 GMT
#209
I almost dont have the energy for this new season T_T gotta figure out all this shit

jungle tryndamere is incredibly strong now, along with most of the junglers that favored offensive trees: pirate, lee sin, ww, kinda trundle, kinda noc, kinda udyr.

for champs that need 6, like noc or ww, I'm getting it like almost 45 seconds faster with the bolstered neutral xp and mastery buffs. this is also with mostly old school rune setups, but I'm replacing previously needed arm/pen and armor with things like atk spd and dodge.

times are still mostly hindered by small camp respawn timers.

pretty sure you can jungle on whoever the fuck you want now. this is so much fucking work T_______T I've probably made 50 customs by now.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 16 2011 19:22 GMT
#210
Why do you bother making customs? Everyone gets the same talents so everyones going to get a similar enough benefit but obviously the weaker ones and the ones relying less on magic damage are going to do better. Just play games and have fun.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 19:37:34
November 16 2011 19:25 GMT
#211
On November 17 2011 04:14 Gooey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote:
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.

UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap...

Edit: Removing reproduction of this bug for now. PMing Moonbear instead. Don't want to publicize it.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 19:28:36
November 16 2011 19:26 GMT
#212
On November 17 2011 04:22 Slayer91 wrote:
Why do you bother making customs? Everyone gets the same talents so everyones going to get a similar enough benefit but obviously the weaker ones and the ones relying less on magic damage are going to do better. Just play games and have fun.


wut? there has been a big change to neutral experience and damage outputs and runes roles. This leads to altered jungle routes which I'm trying to figure out. Champions that previously relied on sustained routes (using stonewall terminology cuz its most accurate) by doing small camps starting wolves then shopping before blue, may now be able to do a manlier route like ww by starting mini gol and small camping all the way through blue, and either shopping if needed or heading back to small gols after.

this is why i custom. new mastery tree is incredibly game changing, in addition to the other patch fixes.

edit: not to say I'm not having fun doing this, it's just a lot of work but exciting to find new routes at the same time. adds new life to literally every jungler.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Prinate
Profile Joined October 2010
United States182 Posts
November 16 2011 19:28 GMT
#213
On November 17 2011 03:56 spinesheath wrote:
@Prinate:
You can't value Wealth properly? Funneh.


Glad to see this work is gonna lead to productive conversations. Hue hue hue...

On November 17 2011 03:47 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s misleading though since you spend mastery points on them, not gold. On top of that the Tier structure means that a given mastery only competes with equal and lower tiered mastery points, never higher ones.


It's only misleading if you value the masteries by thinking this is the only method, which no one should (and you obviously don't). However it's still a valid argument to gauge the relative value of an attribute and assist people in choosing masteries.

As for mastery points valued as gold, that's not misleading. Again, the value is in replacement/opportunity cost. If I don't take AD in my masteries but I know I'll need it in game, well how am I eventually going to get that AD? Gold. If I took something other than AD but have a goal to hit X AD, well then how far back did I just set myself? ~120 gold if I skipped brute force. Was what I took instead worth it? Well now I have a chart to help me consider such a thing...
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
November 16 2011 19:30 GMT
#214
Meh, new junglr pages are sort of stupid imo. nerf to clairvoyance is really frustrating.
liftlift > tsm
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 19:39:43
November 16 2011 19:32 GMT
#215
edit nvm me dumb
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
November 16 2011 19:37 GMT
#216
On November 17 2011 04:32 mOnion wrote:
also why does the forum header say riot "plans" to buff neutral xp? Haven't they already done this?

[image loading]


They did. This thread was just started before the official patch so people were still wondering how necessary the exp gain mastery will be.
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 16 2011 19:37 GMT
#217
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
November 16 2011 19:38 GMT
#218
On November 17 2011 04:37 JBright wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 04:32 mOnion wrote:
also why does the forum header say riot "plans" to buff neutral xp? Haven't they already done this?

[image loading]


They did. This thread was just started before the official patch so people were still wondering how necessary the exp gain mastery will be.


Ah, ya that's totally obvious lol my bad
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 16 2011 20:21 GMT
#219
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit

tl;dr, huehuehuehue
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 16 2011 20:43 GMT
#220
Phreak is an idiot.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 16 2011 20:45 GMT
#221
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit

Phreak's response made me facepalm.
Moderator
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 16 2011 20:47 GMT
#222
Phreak's response is pretty horrifying. Pure polemic, no evidence.

Use ignite on blue golem when you're jungling, guys.
Moda
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway60 Posts
November 16 2011 20:51 GMT
#223
Turns out that the defencive masteries are pretty bad compared to the offensive and utility ones..
dat microwave
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
November 16 2011 20:53 GMT
#224
On November 17 2011 04:14 Gooey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 03:47 Awesomo wrote:
I don't even know how i did this,
[image loading]
But i saved the shit out of those masteries.

UHHHH that is bugged as fuck... I wonder if RIOT is aware of this yet? That needs to be patched like asap...

Am currently discussing it with others right now. Not sure what the cause of the bug is and what action will be taken. But it is being looked at.

Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm...
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 21:00:13
November 16 2011 20:58 GMT
#225
On November 17 2011 05:51 Moda wrote:
Turns out that the defencive masteries are pretty bad compared to the offensive and utility ones..

No, they're fine in comparison to utility. Offense is just stupidly ahead of the curve right now.

On November 17 2011 05:53 MoonBear wrote:
Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm...

We could start by making Lethality a 3 point mastery again. It was already really good at 3 points (back when Havoc was terrible, Lethality was the real reason to go 21 offense). At 1 point it's just stupid.
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 16 2011 21:00 GMT
#226
Nononononono Phreak is right. Because Janna is the only tank in the game - and she usually doesn't get farm.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 16 2011 21:08 GMT
#227
On November 17 2011 06:00 spinesheath wrote:
Nononononono Phreak is right. Because Janna is the only tank in the game - and she usually doesn't get farm.

"Tank" just doesn't really mean anything in the concept of a PvP arena game. The LoL community is just slow on catching on to that fact.
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 21:14:02
November 16 2011 21:11 GMT
#228
On November 17 2011 06:08 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:00 spinesheath wrote:
Nononononono Phreak is right. Because Janna is the only tank in the game - and she usually doesn't get farm.

"Tank" just doesn't really mean anything in the concept of a PvP arena game. The LoL community is just slow on catching on to that fact.

Well, I'm pretty sure that you could look back 6+ months and find some posts where I say that this whole "tank" as a class thing is bullshit. And IF there is any tank in this game, it's Janna. I was talking about "peeling tanks" and "initiating tanks" and whatever. Obviously those terms are ugly so I wasn't even expecting a single person to pick them up...

Similarly with "carry", btw. "Carries" can be divided into squishy/tanky ranged/melee physical/magic DPS/burst. Holy crap.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 21:18:34
November 16 2011 21:13 GMT
#229
On November 17 2011 06:11 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:08 TheYango wrote:
On November 17 2011 06:00 spinesheath wrote:
Nononononono Phreak is right. Because Janna is the only tank in the game - and she usually doesn't get farm.

"Tank" just doesn't really mean anything in the concept of a PvP arena game. The LoL community is just slow on catching on to that fact.

Well, I'm pretty sure that you could look back 6+ months and find some posts where I say that this whole "tank" as a class thing is bullshit. And IF there is any tank in this game, it's Janna. I was talking about "peeling tanks" and "initiating tanks" and whatever. Obviously those terms are ugly so I wasn't even expecting a single person to pick them up...

Well, to be fair, I was arguing against you on the issue back then. I just changed my opinion on the issue at some point between then and now.
Moderator
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 16 2011 21:15 GMT
#230
Ya I just wasted a bunch of time trying to say that tanks and tanky dps were the same thing, that no one is actually going to bother thinking about long enough to realize that I am right cuz 99% of the people who play this game are brainless idiots.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 21:19:11
November 16 2011 21:18 GMT
#231
Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples:
- Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played.
- Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes.
- Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP.
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 16 2011 21:25 GMT
#232
On November 17 2011 06:18 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples:
- Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played.
- Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes.
- Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP.

Amumu is a great anti-carry as long as you don't waste your Bandage to initiate. However, initiating by just straight up waddling into the enemy team requires balls and farm.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
November 16 2011 21:34 GMT
#233
well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2.
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that.

but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
November 16 2011 21:43 GMT
#234
After further testing, you get an error every time you do this, and you do NOT get the stats from the bugged masteries you have set up once you're ingame.

So, you put in your typical 21 Defense. Let's say... this
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-1-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Now, you put that third point into Honor Guard. You're now 22 in Defense.

Then it lets you pull that 1 point out of Tough Skin.

When you save the page, it gives you an empty error box.

To see whether or not I actually had the stats for this page, I went into a game where I had 17 points in Defense and nothing else, with an empty runepage. At level 1, I had 506 HP, 23 armor, 36 MR, but only 300 movespeed and 0% CDR
(Some other attempts had 302 movespeed. It seems inconsistent what it actually gives you the stats for, but it doesnt give you the stats for everything properly for sure..)

TL;DR theres a bug that lets you have 21 defense with only 11 points in the first 3 tiers. Don't use it, you dont get the stats you think you're getting.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 16 2011 21:44 GMT
#235
On November 17 2011 06:34 PrinceXizor wrote:
well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2.
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that.

but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way.

Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over.
Moderator
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
November 16 2011 21:53 GMT
#236
So what would you guys take if you played Vlad? I've been thinking good ol' 9/0/21 immediately, but 9/21/0 looks actually pretty cute as well.
currently rooting for myself.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 16 2011 21:59 GMT
#237
On November 17 2011 06:53 Shiv. wrote:
So what would you guys take if you played Vlad? I've been thinking good ol' 9/0/21 immediately, but 9/21/0 looks actually pretty cute as well.

Your first thought should always be 21+/x/y with the new masteries.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 22:07:34
November 16 2011 22:05 GMT
#238
On November 17 2011 06:18 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples:
- Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played.
- Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes.
- Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP.


you're reasoning for amumu not being played is a little off. amumu is by far the best tank in the game because of his huge ult, his ability to toss AFTER ult, and his passive constantly being stacked if you're not a horrible player. the problems are A) people don't know about his passive, B) he's easily counter jungled, and can't lane, and C) his huge problem which is his reliance on the other 4 players to do shit right. if you toss in and ult 4 people, that's great! but now you're in the midst of the entire enemy team, and if it's an awkward angle or your team wasn't positioned properly, you're gonna get bursted down.

most straight up tanks that you listed just aren't played these days because they don't fit in with the current meta. the only place for anyone tanky is either top or jungle, and since the jungling is becoming faster and more counter heavy (at least S1), tanks only role is top really.

also I don't agree that a tanks role is anticarry. like ever. an anticarry's role is anticarry. tanks should, imo, initiate well, and support defensively, and that's it. as long as you can initiate and keep people off your right clicker, all's good.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
November 16 2011 22:06 GMT
#239
On November 17 2011 06:59 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:53 Shiv. wrote:
So what would you guys take if you played Vlad? I've been thinking good ol' 9/0/21 immediately, but 9/21/0 looks actually pretty cute as well.

Your first thought should always be 21+/x/y with the new masteries.

It had been, but I feel like Vlad really needs the CDR badly.
currently rooting for myself.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 22:15:37
November 16 2011 22:07 GMT
#240
god fucking damnit T_D. Phreak feels like responding, but rather than talking about anything useful you have turned the thread into a discussion of what the fuck is a tank. Who cares!? jesus, I just want to know if Riot's even remotely aware of the glaring stat imbalances on the trees and the fact that % damage reduction sucks donkey dick when it costs 1 point for 0.5% or a conditional 1%.

i'm not actually that mad at you, I'm just mad that of all the discussion points Phreak could respond to, he chose literally the least consequential of them to me.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 22:18:00
November 16 2011 22:15 GMT
#241
I was about to respond to Phreak about how Amumu DOES build AP once he is tanky enough to use his ultimate, and how Alistar DOES want burst damage for the laning phase and can build CDR as the game goes on...
I'm not going to though.

Phreak kinda seems like one of these people with a very superficial knowledge of the game...
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 16 2011 22:19 GMT
#242
If you build atmas you're not fulfilling a tanky role.

?

idgi
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
November 16 2011 22:20 GMT
#243
I would imagine it's almost impossible to be a developer for a game, and skilled enough at that game to please the entire competitive community, who will always be divided on every fucking issue.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 16 2011 22:23 GMT
#244
it's a company, not just 1 person. they should hire me as a consultant and be like, "yo, smash, what do you think about these masteries before we put them on the live server?" so that I can point out this shit before it goes live in a "tournament patch."
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
November 16 2011 22:24 GMT
#245
On November 17 2011 05:53 MoonBear wrote:
Also, I do have to agree with Mogwai over Phreak. A lot of the masteries atm are just so gold inefficient they're not worth taking at all. The problem is where to tweak those numbers though hm...


Defensive stats have a relative discount to offensive ones since defense doesn´t provide farm. Thats also where the %reduction on CS comes from, to negate the discount without replacing all defense items. Guess what happend to the one pure defense HP item. That doesn´t mean that offense isn´t too good but it´ll always have more gold value.
Phreak wasn´t adressing the goldvalue part though but the "Defense doesn´t feel like Defense". Soaking damage isn´t a role in this game but a means to an end. A champ that takes defense might do so because he wants to be a jungler so bladed armor and initiator makes sense. Shure it could simply negate all the extra damage the offense tree provides but that would be pretty boring wouldn´t it?

I´m certain there will be some changes, especially regarding preserverance which feels like a stand in for "presence for the master" because I guess mastermind was supposed to be something else.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 16 2011 22:25 GMT
#246
On November 17 2011 07:20 mOnion wrote:
I would imagine it's almost impossible to be a developer for a game, and skilled enough at that game to please the entire competitive community, who will always be divided on every fucking issue.

If you can't please the competitive community, you could at least make the numbers sensible enough that when someone complains about them, you have a valid argument, rather than skirting the issue because the gold value equivalencies of the mastery trees are obviously fucked.
Moderator
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
November 16 2011 22:27 GMT
#247
On November 17 2011 07:25 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 07:20 mOnion wrote:
I would imagine it's almost impossible to be a developer for a game, and skilled enough at that game to please the entire competitive community, who will always be divided on every fucking issue.

If you can't please the competitive community, you could at least make the numbers sensible enough that when someone complains about them, you have a valid argument, rather than skirting the issue because the gold value equivalencies of the mastery trees are obviously fucked.


Ya I agree, he really should have already had tons of data to present as a counter argument to the numbers mogwai came up with in just a few days. Honestly I'm taken aback that there's almost no evidence that riot did any sort of mathematical analysis on the numbers before just smashin' them in our face.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
November 16 2011 22:54 GMT
#248
I think people need to chill the fuck out. Obviously they're going to tweak the mastery page once they start getting more feedback.

Are the new masteries perfect? No, tha'ts obvious. Let them have time, Riot has been fairly proactive in keeping the game balanced. I just suggest everyone just chills out for a bit.
liftlift > tsm
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 23:18:22
November 16 2011 23:14 GMT
#249
On November 17 2011 07:54 wei2coolman wrote:
I think people need to chill the fuck out. Obviously they're going to tweak the mastery page once they start getting more feedback.

Are the new masteries perfect? No, tha'ts obvious. Let them have time, Riot has been fairly proactive in keeping the game balanced. I just suggest everyone just chills out for a bit.


Because this is a tournament patch, we'll be making relatively smaller changes to the game.

On November 17 2011 06:25 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:18 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally, if you look at the list of "tanks" and at the functions they perform (between initiator, defensive support, and anticarry), the ones that stopped getting played are the ones that can only perform one of those functions well, and the ones that are still played are the ones that bring more than just 1 function to the table. Examples:
- Amumu is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support or anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Malphite is pretty much just an initiator. He does nothing as a defensive support, and is a mediocre anti-carry. He doesn't get played.
- Shen is pretty much just a defensive support. He's a poor initiator, and a poor anticarry. He doesn't get played.
- Cho'gath is an iffy initiator, a good defensive support, and a reasonable anticarry. He gets played sometimes.
- Rammus is a decent initiator, a fantastic anticarry, and a reasonable defensive support. He's the new OP.

Amumu is a great anti-carry as long as you don't waste your Bandage to initiate. However, initiating by just straight up waddling into the enemy team requires balls and farm.


In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away.

Nunu plays somewhat similar, but his kit is far more toward support than tank.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 16 2011 23:16 GMT
#250
Im sorry smash. Its just phreak is an idiot, as his posts demonstrate, and probably KNOWS he cant bullshit his way into giving you an answer, whereas he DOES feel comfortable bullshiting me, even though everyone with half a brain can see he has NO fucking clue what he is talking about.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 16 2011 23:23 GMT
#251
On November 17 2011 08:14 Niton wrote:
In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away.

I said he was a mediocre anti-carry because while Malphite is indeed good for dealing with fed ranged AD, his kit is comparatively worthless for dealing with fed AP carries.
Moderator
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
November 16 2011 23:58 GMT
#252
On November 17 2011 08:23 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 08:14 Niton wrote:
In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away.

I said he was a mediocre anti-carry because while Malphite is indeed good for dealing with fed ranged AD, his kit is comparatively worthless for dealing with fed AP carries.


Has the terminology of anti-carry changed? I've only ever seen the term anti-carry be used to described the ranged autoattacking AD carries. Usually what you're talking about is anti-caster.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
November 17 2011 00:14 GMT
#253
On November 17 2011 08:58 Niton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 08:23 TheYango wrote:
On November 17 2011 08:14 Niton wrote:
In addition, Malphite is a fantastic anti-carry and one of the single strongest answers to autoattack hypercarries like Vayne or Kog'maw in the entire game. He was too weak to really be played in the role you'd want him in (jungler), but FH + Ground Slam floors a champion's attack speed, and Seismic Shard assures they're not getting away.

I said he was a mediocre anti-carry because while Malphite is indeed good for dealing with fed ranged AD, his kit is comparatively worthless for dealing with fed AP carries.


Has the terminology of anti-carry changed? I've only ever seen the term anti-carry be used to described the ranged autoattacking AD carries. Usually what you're talking about is anti-caster.

Those are hypercarries. Anti-Carries are champs that are good at cleaning up carries.
currently rooting for myself.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 00:25:05
November 17 2011 00:21 GMT
#254
Anticarries:

Irelia
Xin Derp
Akali
Olaf
etc

I was under the assumption that an anti-carry was a champ that was good at ignoring CC and diving the big dmg, squishy champs, while having a kit or building tanky enough to not die, getting the fuck outta the fight (if low) and letting your own carry/other 3 players clean up.

Irelia's the best example of an anti-carry imo. Build her tanky enough to not die, with a triforce for burst. Jump in, blow up ashe, heal heal heal ignore CC. In a higher level game where she's not stupid fed this is generally the extent of what she can do in a team fight, until later in the fight if your team's winning and she can hop back in towards the end of the fight for stuns and additional quick deeps.

edit: lol we are so far off topic
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
November 17 2011 00:47 GMT
#255
Yeah, I changed what I was writing but didn't clean it up properly - I meant a champion which was specifically good at dealing with the kind of champions I mentioned. Malphite does, however, seem like a fantastic (if niche) champion with the new mastery set and his buffs this patch.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
November 17 2011 00:49 GMT
#256
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit


o.o wow that was actually a good read... I don't think riot did as much math ._.
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
brokor
Profile Joined June 2011
Greece235 Posts
November 17 2011 00:56 GMT
#257
there is only 1 thing i do not get about LoL.


How come noone in riot has thought about PTR's. Generally every single game i have played with any competitive aspect at all has had Test Servers. From MMo's to RTS's even fucking DoTA in the sense that if you found smth that didnt satisfy you with the new patch you could play the approved,stable older one.

If only LoL had a PTR server like SC2 before patches that make such huge differences. All these problems would be avoided and fanboys wouldnt have to resort to "riot always comes out on the good side in the end". I agree riot has rectified most imbalances and mistakes they have made during champion design or champion/item rebalance, but as a side-effect the game is regularly broken half the time. When Graves came out the game was unplayable hands down. they nerfed him 2 weeks later, nerfed him once again 2 weeks after that. Why wouldn't they introduce the champion in a secluded dedicated test server, so any volunteers could play? and leave the general population with the stable "balanced" version they have been playing. and after 1 week of testing, introduce it, but a bit changed.

This concept could help riot in so many ways. Ofc it is possible they just dont care, they just wanna get the champions out to sell the double bundles quicker. alhough i doubt 1 week delay makes a huge diff.
i am generally an easy person to talk and develop a dialogue, but in this case i don't see how anyone could argue against what i said.

Sry for my english.
PTR or allow us to play earlier versions, at least in custom games. i understand ladder ranking have to be based on current version but allow previous ones for custom play.
Winter is Coming
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 17 2011 01:07 GMT
#258
They do have a ptr, they just only use it for structural stuff.

They USED to have an actual ptr that got balance changes, but they destroyed it because champs kits would always get leaked, as would balance changes, which everyone would bitch about without actually being able to play.

Of course, the trade off between sifting through BS and actually getting feedback from people who can play the game well definitely makes it seem as though they need to go back to the way it was. There is just NO way anyone at riot can play this game with any level of skill whatsoever.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Ian Ian Ian
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
915 Posts
November 17 2011 01:12 GMT
#259
Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 17 2011 01:14 GMT
#260
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/

Its pretty good imo, especially when you consider that you get it on ap carries and assassins.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 17 2011 01:28 GMT
#261
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/


6% damage is actually quite a bit, even if it's only vs >40% health targets I think they set the 40% because they want champions to be dealing more damage without buffing poke.
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
November 17 2011 01:37 GMT
#262
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/


Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
dookudooku
Profile Joined December 2010
255 Posts
November 17 2011 02:00 GMT
#263
On November 17 2011 10:37 Niton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 10:12 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
Anyone else feel like the last tier offensive mastery is kind of underwhelming? 6% damage on targets under 40% hp? :/


Yes and no. Any weakness compared to the old 21-point mastery is completely erased by how much stronger Offensive is as a tree now, but the total effect of Executioner is weaker than the mastery it replaced.


In practice it's arguably stronger than the old mastery. Characters that went 21 pts in offensive are usually AD carries, who don't deal big damage at the start of a teamfight. If you think about it, AD carries usually don't engage until one or several of the characters have been bursted down to low health, to avoid being insta-gibbed themselves.
Flakes
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States3125 Posts
November 17 2011 02:04 GMT
#264
The way I see executioner is: if I'm going 20+ points into offense anyway, executioner is a pretty good value for 1 more point. Maybe not the best in the offense tree, but still pretty good.

And it looks like we're done with it, but lets not get into "what is a tank" in this thread--every time it shows up on GD it always devolves into madness. MADNESS.
Haemonculus
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States6980 Posts
November 17 2011 02:31 GMT
#265
I think any "increased damage dealt" type stats should also affect heals dispensed. Bonus healing to low-health targets could be a fun mechanic to give healers more of that "clutch save" feeling and less of the "lol we're both invulnerable in lane" sustain type heals that riot claims they don't like.

Also might give supports another decision to make regarding masteries. Do you want all the generic supporty stuff in the def/uti tree, or pour points into the offense tree in hopes that your individual heals can be more potent?

Right now the current new trees just feel like such a non-decision for most champs.
I admire your commitment to being *very* oily
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 17 2011 04:53 GMT
#266
I noticed there hasn't been any discussion on Indomitable. I actually miss being able to take 2/2 and 3/3 of whatever that was for a total of 4 reduced minion damage, it was actually a decent amount early game when you played a champ like renekton that is going to get hit by minions.

Because it's strictly better than the old version (besides only being able to put 2 points into it instead of 5 points), I think it's worth it for any champ that could potentially eat minion damage early game (riven, garen). Thoughts?
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 06:56:57
November 17 2011 06:56 GMT
#267
So, since all sorts of jungling got easier, can twitch clear jungle more competently? Can he do it with 21 offense 9 defense?
How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.)

Would love to test, but I don't own twitch.
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 15:41:58
November 17 2011 15:38 GMT
#268
What masteries would you us for Ryze ? And for AP casters like Morgana ?

I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/
The legend of Darien lives on
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 15:51:47
November 17 2011 15:46 GMT
#269
On November 18 2011 00:38 mr_tolkien wrote:
What masteries would you us for Ryze ? And for AP casters like Morgana ?

I'm still quite at a loss regarding a few points, even the awesome post from Smash :/

Ryze would like 9/0/21 still quite a lot for the CDR, etc, and the fact that he doesn't need all that AP you get in the offense tree. Morgana, it would depend on whether or not you wanted to have more utility or damage. Most people are going to play her 21 offense, because the offense tree is just too strong to pass up, but 21 utility could work if you want to poke with her Q all day and have more shields.

I'd say a lot of what you want to do in general is based on how your champion's power is going to curve and how long you can reasonably expect the game to last in respect to that curve. Take for example Zilean, who is absurdly stong in lane and throughout midgame, but lategame his damage drops off a cliff and he becomes more of a farmed support than anything. In all honesty, I would run him 21 utility, because the AP per level and Executioner masteries aren't going to make him that much better in lane, while the CDR buff and summoner cooldowns will help you make more clutch plays with your ult and your slow/haste.

But if you think you can end the game before 35+ minutes, go 21 Offense and just lololol all day.
Writer@WriterYamato
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 17 2011 15:46 GMT
#270
Morgana I would definitely go 21/0/9 to take advantage of 1 shotting people with your ultimate, you're pretty hard to kill with black shield too and if you build either RoA or Zhonya's (or both).

Ryze is a tricky one due to his weak AP scaling but I believe there was some discussion on him if you search the thread.
Prinate
Profile Joined October 2010
United States182 Posts
November 17 2011 16:22 GMT
#271
On November 17 2011 15:56 sylverfyre wrote:
So, since all sorts of jungling got easier, can twitch clear jungle more competently? Can he do it with 21 offense 9 defense?
How bout if that 9 defense isn't in the bladed armor? (Vet scars would be rather nice on the squishy rat.)

Would love to test, but I don't own twitch.


I dont own twitch, but do you have a PBE account? I know this isn't it's purpose, but it's a great place to do try out or test some characters while (hopefully) looking for bugs.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
November 17 2011 17:15 GMT
#272
Oh that's a good idea. Could also be testing spec mode at the same time by 2-boxing it!
Logrus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States228 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 18:27:38
November 17 2011 18:24 GMT
#273
On November 17 2011 07:06 Shiv. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:59 spinesheath wrote:
On November 17 2011 06:53 Shiv. wrote:
So what would you guys take if you played Vlad? I've been thinking good ol' 9/0/21 immediately, but 9/21/0 looks actually pretty cute as well.

Your first thought should always be 21+/x/y with the new masteries.

It had been, but I feel like Vlad really needs the CDR badly.


I played as Malz vs a Vlad mid the yesterday and got rocked.

We killed each other a few times in lane, but when I killed him it was I clearly outplayed him, juking him into pooling and silences and maximizing my minion dps. When he killed me... well, I'm not saying it wasn't his skill, I'm just saying there wasn't much room for skill when his Q hit me for 40% of my hps. Certainly I underestimated his damage in a large way. I should have paid more attention to his items and runes. I'm paraphrasing, regardless, at a certain point I suddenly couldn't do anything in lane vs him cuz his q threat was too large.

After the match I checked his build and it was as follows:

flat ap quint, flat ap blue, flat ap yellow, flat ap red x4, mpen red x5
0/9/21 was his exact build:
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
I'd take initiator over evasion but this is wat he used exactly.

open amp tome -> haunting guise/sorc boots -> hit for a billion


I had been thinking of a a theoretical Vlad build (I have yet to try): mpen red, hp/lvl yellow, flat cdr blue, move quint. 9/0/21. Figure open boots 3. I wanted to focus on mobility and cdr altho clearly I am lacking in early offense comparatively. This is something someone else used that's really really different but it def worked so I found it interesting and thought I'd share it.

Its 'gimmicky' but it was really strong.
"Down, down into the pile, into the great slag heap, window onto the ends of time and space, where nothing is to be seen at the end, I went, between walls forever afire, never burnt down..." -Merlin, Prince of Chaos
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
November 17 2011 18:40 GMT
#274
On November 17 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:34 PrinceXizor wrote:
well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2.
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that.

but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way.

Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over.

amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear.

Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 17 2011 20:11 GMT
#275
On November 18 2011 03:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote:
On November 17 2011 06:34 PrinceXizor wrote:
well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2.
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that.

but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way.

Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over.

amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear.

Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed.

...no

skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin).
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-17 21:19:09
November 17 2011 21:17 GMT
#276
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit


I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW.

This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team.

Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes.

This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
November 17 2011 22:57 GMT
#277
On November 18 2011 06:17 phyvo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit


I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW.

This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team.

Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes.

This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games.


Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
November 18 2011 01:47 GMT
#278
On November 18 2011 05:11 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2011 03:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
On November 17 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote:
On November 17 2011 06:34 PrinceXizor wrote:
well skarners jungle gets improved pretty dramatically by the new masteries + surge. 0/9/21 picking up spiked armor solely because get an extra 2 seconds per camp (due to one less Q/E needed) saves mana for him as well. surge makes his blue buff time much faster, due to CDR and damage increase. Wealth Actually has a use for him as you can start amp tome + 2 pots which is the required number in order for him to do a full clear. and getting the bonus xp + xp mastery give him some serious power in a quick gank as he can easily be lvl 3 and be in position when he would normally by lvl 2.
his mana pool tends to be slightly too small until late game and expanded mind fixes that.

but yeah i see how for most other champions this is an issue and a balance problem but skarner fits inbetween all those little cracks in the new system to be buffed in practically every way.

Why would you waste points on Wealth just to start Amp Tome + 2pot, when with 21 defense you can start Boots+3pot and do a full clear? Boots are WAY more powerful for ganking before your first clear is over.

amp tome + 2 pots lets him clear up to 5 seconds faster than before mastery change, and at a much higher HP so he can gank twice instead of once during the first clear.

Amp tome + 1 pot was always the best for ganking that skarner got, but it left him unable to clear in one go. the second pot was needed.

...no

skarnar needs to get close to do fuckall for damage. and he doesn't have a gap closer, hence boots are definitely the best for ganking on him, just like udyr. only guys where boots aren't necessarily the best are guys with a gap closer and CC so that they can still stick and take advantage of other items' higher damage (Lee Sin, Xin).

hard to gank anyone when you don't have HP, which is what the amp tome excels at doing over boots.
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
November 18 2011 15:52 GMT
#279
On November 18 2011 07:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2011 06:17 phyvo wrote:
On November 17 2011 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17301441

just me ranting about this shit


I don't think it's actually accurate to say that X talent that gives 4 AP = Y gold and then simply list gp5/wealth mastery as Z gold. This is because if you calculate gold value of a mastery based on the cost of that stat from a base item you're inflating the value. A flat 10 AD with no items may be worth 415 gold but that gold can't be put into a LW.

This is obviously more important for support champs so we'll look at examples pertinent to them. A D-ring (for d-ring stack) costs 475 gold but gives 868 gold worth of stats which means that relative to flat stat masteries your gold quints/masteries are worth 1.8x as much. If you go aura bot an Aegis is at 1.5x the efficiency of base items with just you and a lane partner standing next to each other or 2.7x with the full team.

Assuming we're stacking DRings this would put the wealth mastery at 36 g/point (just under vampirism but far above resistances for point efficiency) and make the the GP5 mastery 5.4 gold/minute per point, surpassing level 18 durability at 14.5 minutes instead of 25 minutes and blast at 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes.

This is all aside from the obvious fact that gp5 doesn't give you AP at level 1, though you also can't buy wards with AP. IMO, for utility champs the utility tree seems pretty fine. Even mercenary might be better than you give it credit for at least in pub games.


Basing your example off the most cost effective items in the game is not a good idea. Having a longsword at the start of the game that is invisible is a lot better than having a longsword you can build into a last whisper 10 minutes into the game. If my invisible longsword got me a 415 gold advantage over the course of that time period I come out ahead regardless as well.


For the reason you stated it's not as much of an issue on non-supports but for supports it's very different. Unless you are banking on early aggression a support doesn't really require the extra stats early on and given a more passive game it's simply not a concern for the support and by the time you get to your first back you reap the benefit because you get to buy more wards or a dring + wards.

Of course if you like running aggressive firstblood combos bot (zergling rush kekeke) then there's no point to going utility for gp5.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
November 18 2011 19:26 GMT
#280
No idea how to jungle Trundle, 21 offense or defense and 9 in any of the other two. T_T Seems like he clears absurdly fast with 21 off, but since he did it anyway before the new masteries 21 def could still be good to be a bit more tanky (so more in the face of that AD carry) + that helps with the gap where he feels weaker if you didn't farm enough early, providing some tankiness.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-18 21:34:31
November 18 2011 21:08 GMT
#281
I actually didn't know that mogwai was smash until now.

I read your thread and agree with almost all of it. Utility went from almost always atleast getting 9 in it... to never using it unless you are support or if you want the 20% buff duration or need even more movespeed (Udyr). Scout could be a cool perk, but 5% isn't substantial enough for anyone to consider it. Expanded mind isn't that useful to many people except Ryze and should only be used to get to meditation. Awareness is to far down the tree for any jungler to want to get (unless a whole team gets it and trolls with zilean and exp quints). CDR from intelligence is easier to get from the other trees while still having useful points in the other trees. Sage is laughable though.

I'm expecting a buff to the utility tree or we are only going to see it on few champions. Ryze for mana/mana regen, some junglers for the 20% buff duration and obviously supports.

Does anyone else feel like transmutation should be in the offensive tree T4 next to vampirism?

Also wanted to state that Ryze seems to have a ton of options, his build allows for tankyness so going down different trees with something like:

Defensive
9/15/6
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-3-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-0-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Offense w/defense
21/9/0
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Offense w/ utility
21/0/9
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-1-3-0-0-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

Defensive 12.1% CDR @18
9/21/0
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-0-1-1-0-0-0-3-3-2-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Utility 10% CDR
9/0/21
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-3-0-4-2-0-0-0-1-0-4-0-0-3-1

Sorry if this was too much, I like champions who can dish out decent damage while taking some aswell. (Udyr, Ryze, Nasus, etc) Just wanted to get others thoughts.

Edit: Also, I still don't know the exact cost efficiency on the trees so I filled them in with what I thought was decent. Tell me if you think any of them are horrible or how I should change them.
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