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Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree.
Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience. |
On November 15 2011 01:31 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 01:08 Sponkz wrote:I'm not giving up greed and that new mastery that gives you extra start gold. Maybe if tanky supports become viable, but i would still doubt it will be worth it. EDIT: To back it up. Supports are weakest in the very early stages of the game (this is terms of supports not champions that are being played as supports) because you have a low income due to babysitting. The new mastery somewhat fixes it, at the cost of using 24 points. Might be shitty, but i'm happy. If you're not willing to give up greed, buy gold Quints, and put your masteries point elsewhere. I have to agree with Neo and Smash on that utility is vastly inferior than defense for support. And to retake Smash argument : 1 point in Wealth = 20 gold. 1 point in Mental Force = 1 AP = 22 gold. Also mercenary (defense) can give you 8 gold per assist (for each point in it). Make 3 assists and its more valuable than Wealth. And i dont think support are that weak early game. Taric stun imba early game, Sona damage imba early game, Soraka sustain imba early game.
The thing is, give up gold quints and put something else there. And read my post again, it's not in terms of the champions being played as support, it's the SUPPORT ROLE that is weak in early game.
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Not sure how this will effect junglers, but combined with the new xp buff to jungle creeps and changes to spell i think junglers are gonna be deadly no more over committing :D
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On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.
Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all...
Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on starting lanes than an extra 3 AD on AA.
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On November 15 2011 01:39 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.
Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all... Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on a low level lane than an extra 3 AD on AA.
or two?
how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions?
so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion?
really?
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He's going to wait on the pool for 10 clicks, and show up to lane with many more potions because of all the gold quints greed, and wealth.
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On November 15 2011 01:41 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 01:39 ManyCookies wrote:On November 15 2011 01:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
hi5 Smash.
Don't get the hurpdurpness of Wealth fanbois at all... Well, gold utility is not necessarily indicative of actual in-game utility. 1000 gold of Health Regen might be worth less than, say 500 gold of attack damage in the later game. Also, a significant portion of an item's utility comes from the ability to build it into different items later on, rather than its raw stats (Doran's Items are a good example of this). Following this, an extra starting health/mana potion or two can have far more impact on a low level lane than an extra 3 AD on AA. or two? how will 40 extra gold give you an extra 2 potions? so you're going balls deep into the utility tree for an extra potion? really?
If you're left with 25-30 gold (and wait 2-3 seconds at spawn for the 5 gold), then the extra 40 gold would net two health potions.
It's hardly a "MUST GET THIS NOW" mastery, I agree. But it is significantly more useful than a straight gold/utility analysis shows.
On November 15 2011 01:45 Sabin010 wrote:
He's going to wait on the pool for 10 clicks, and show up to lane with many more potions because of all the gold quints greed, and wealth.
Are you kidding? I'm just going to buy 14 Health Potions at the start, then AFK for two creep waves to get 20 Health Potions.
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Not exactly a pro-mastery analyzer but I was interested in masteries for jungle WW and as other people of said it seems kinda whatever you want. What I want to know is if this is retarded since it looks unorthodox numerically ^^ :
14/15/1
I passed up Runic Affinity which is probably the biggest thing missing and you can't go 14/9/Runic Affinity. I like the movespeed mastery in the def tree because WW is an auto-healer and normally above 70%. Really not sure how to put points between tier 1 and Initiator. Bladed Armor is really good and arm mres are good stats but other than that... not sure.
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Also, the whole point of greed was being crazy effiicent but takes a long time to make it worth it. Now they halfed the efficiency of it and made it a 4 point spell kinda silly.
I think the only people going for runic affinity on junglers are going to be ones who really want the movement speed as well because of how ridiculously better offense and defense trees are now.
They made swiftness less efficient now. Another one of riots oversteps I think. Utility too strong? BUFF THE SHIT OF OUT OTHER TREES NERF THE SHIT OUT OF UTILITY!
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United States37500 Posts
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.
Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat?
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I was thinking more of a dip down into def tree for movement speed to help roaming like this. With CV being nerfed, I think added mobility will be at a premium now. To think Janna can start with 8% movement speed at level 1 without items or buffs is crazy. Someone like Alistar or support Blitz could make pretty good use of this as well for roaming purposes. I don't like sacrificing greed for juggernaut on support, tho. The only thing I could see giving that up for is getting Mercenary for roaming and build like this. The lost gold from greed can be made up through assists, since they give just as much extra gold as kills with this mastery. That can be a source of extra ward money instead of greed. Mobility boots alistar with movement speed quints and these talents would be pretty damned scary.
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You need 1 assist every 80 seconds for Mercenary to be as good as Greed point for point. It's really a terrible mastery that only gets worse as you get better at the game.
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You mean 160 seconds right?
Edit: I do agree with you btw, especially since Greed is also pretty bad when these changes come tbh.
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I'd still go 21 in utility just for the summoner cooldown as a support.
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On November 15 2011 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.
Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat?
I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far"
I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers).
I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it.
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I think the whole purpose of the changes was to make it better to go futher into the red and blue trees (or for people into conspiracies Riot wanted to nerf Jax's e with out being obvious about it). I was playing 21 utility on so many champions because of how good it is to have summoners off cd faster, how good cdr is, how good movement speed is and the flash cdr mastery. The incentive to move further into red and blue tree is there. I like how only 9 points in utility yeilds movement speed, reduced death timer, flash cdr, and full buff duration. This allows 21 points to be put into other trees while benefiting from some of the best parts of putting more than 9 points in green while still being able to go 21 offense/defense or a hybrid mix of the two.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2011 02:29 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:
Right now, it's obvious that Utility is the best tree by far. But Riot doesn't have to buff Off/Def AND nerf Utility all at the same time.
Reminds me of Panth, too op? Nerf HSS, buff Q, wat? I'd disagree pretty strongly with "by far" I mean shit, Caster and Support standard spec 21 in utility, Ranged AD standard spec 21 in offensive, and Jungler and Top standard spec 21 in offensive or defensive depending on the character (and in rare cases utility on junglers). I'll agree that it's the strongest tree, but even as is, it wouldn't be crazy to see a game with 4 people maxing util, 3 maxing offensive, and 3 maxing defensive. It hasn't shown the sort of dominance that demands the level of nerf they gave it.
Real semantics arguer... fk Smash.
Yes, you obviously spec for your role but come on. Presence of the Master vs Havoc or Tenacity? Ok, my point.
And I agree with your last statement.
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Havoc and Tenacity both pretty good. They're also both always doing something. Presence of the Master is OP when you're using your summoners on every CD. But if you sit around with your flash up for 40 seconds, it didn't really matter if you had Presence of the Master or not. The main thing that makes Presence of the Master OP is fucking CV. FUCK CV, please remove from game, kthx. Shit like that that you can just use every CD goes crazy with presence of the master.
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On November 15 2011 02:09 Seuss wrote:
You need 1 assist every 80 seconds for Mercenary to be as good as Greed point for point. It's really a terrible mastery that only gets worse as you get better at the game.
Doesn't need to be as good as greed does, just needs to recoup some lost gold for not having it. It only costs 3 points for mercenary, whereas greed costs 4 points. The way I look at it, if I am roaming and go 1-0-3 at 12 minutes or something, then I am at least getting 100 gold for my efforts (I don't think this is an unreasonable scoreline for aggressive roaming, but not at all worth it for passive lane babysitting). Greed would give me 150 gold in that same timeframe with 3 talent points. It is worse, yeah, but you still need some extra gold. I don't know if the CDR in defensive tree would be worth it if you are going all the way down to 21 anyways. To be honest, when I play alistar, I only need my combo to initiate. I don't need cdr to initiate. Passive spammy champs like sona/soraka/janna would benefit, though.
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So most of my junglers I am pretty happy with overall on paper - of course it is going to take some testing. The one that seems to really bother me though is nocturne. I'm running a 16/3/11 build on live that I am really happy with - but there seems to be so many strong picks early in the new mastery trees , combined with what I feel is a weak mid - tier offense (havoc, lethality, deadliness, vampirism) in the case of his jungle. Much of what I went into offense for is now lower in the tree except flat armor pen, which is exchanged for flat 10%
First 9 points in offense benefit his jungle and transition into mid/late
First 9 in defense are incredibly strong for early jungle clears + smite mastery
First 9 in utility provide movespeed + buff duration
are any of these worth giving up to run a 21/x/x or x/21/x
is there any value in considering a 9/9/9 +3?
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-0-2-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0
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EPT
