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On November 28 2013 08:54 cLutZ wrote: Isn't W's range a little low for trading?
It's low for poking. But this is a reactive trade we are talking about. Getting in range isn't an issue any more. Plus it's not like you're not fast enough to get in range with a w max.
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I still wanna see some proof that this method works. Got any replays?
On November 28 2013 08:48 Zanno wrote: there are certain janna lanes where w max is fine
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting
Cool, which? Like i said 2 times already, i do not see this working against Zyra/Thresh/Blitz/Leona/Annie, they should punish you real hard for trying to trade in low range.
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You don't have to try to trade in low range.
I will see what I have on Monday but I am out of town for the holiday. No guarantees because lol replay had been throwing an error and I had to turn it off. everything will be season 3 if I have them.
Besides the sona one you already watched I have only
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/3538570/
And
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/3521515/
Already uploaded. But nothing else would be available until at least Monday. And no guarantees on volume or value.
Edit: when I made these I was doing it to show how people of all skill levels make mistakes in various games and provide a bit of help for some people who are not as skilled at the game. These were my comments for the second link which was played chronologically first. It's around plat 4 mmr.
+ Show Spoiler + 2:00 Corki disco's at level 1. I did not know this and we lost the fight because of it. We might have actually won that if i did not realize it. You will notice that I basically ignore taric early. This is because if taric wants to fight at level 1 i am happy to let him. We should not have a problem winning this fight. Basically Corki doesn't blow barrier. Trist blows Barrier and Taric Exhausts.
We probably should have hard Taric after this too, but his timely stun and flash saved him.
3:14 I back ping and follow taric out of the lane. It would be 3v2 or worse, but i could probably save j4 if he needed seconds to get over the dragon pit. When he comes back i keep auto attack harass to ensure he is low and has to spend mana healing.
3:34 corki should have followed me here. The creeps can wait we would have killed or pushed trist out of lane.
4:23 placing this ward is not a bad call because it prevents Taric from stunning me from his bush. Trist auto pushes and so will tend to come to that bush anyway. By pinking his pink I ensure that Taric cannot push the wave and take bush control. If the lane was going to push the other way, it might be a waste to clear that ward.
4:28 this is a really good engage by Taric. Corki is out of position and Taric hit level 2. Notice how i go straight for Trist. This lines my Q up to hit both Tristana and Taric. However my timing was off and I only hit trist with it. I escape with 6 HP. Corki's turn was really ill advised here. He potentially could have gotten out since Taric/Trist would have had to chase through creeps.
5:28 Shield the tower if its taking damage. Every little bit helps. I did a bad job of prepping these for Corki. Turned out he did not need the assistance.
5:43 Trist should have gone back, or Taric should not have. She is doing nothing here. So i just zone her out of XP. I wait a bit before engaging/poking because i want her to be low when taric gets to lane. That way the same problem she had when it was 2v1 taric has. Doesn't quite work but that is the idea. Taric levels heal first which negates my ability to do this (and to be harassed out). A good choice on his part to deal with the fact that I am ranged and can counter his engage
7:20 we should have won this fight. They are a level up but trist is low. Corki does not respect taric's damage and stands right next to him. I have to ensure that trist gets low enough so she has to pull out, but its early, so corki still can't trade with taric yet. Corki disconnects here and i turn onto trist. Taric is not a threat as his abilities are on CD. Trist's jump is down. Items aren't an issue because trist has not bought yet. I probably should not have turned that though
10:00 I warn J4 that we can't see trist. This facecheck was really really dumb. I also didn't have wards and should have bought one on last back. I was mashing R and we might have turned that had i got it off. Turned out OK, but should have waited for j4 to come.
12:00 We might have won this if corki did not w out of my ult. Either way, i had to flash the barrel to escape. We stay because we see J4 coming. Tower is on taric, so i slow him. Ward into the bush so we can see the chase. Stop auto attacking so that I don't get the kill. I should have popped a potion at the start of this. Might have been able to get Gragas if we didn't. We leave at the end because Zyra is really amazingly big atm. J4 called for dragon but taking the bottom tower would be a better call. We are all low and towers don't fight back when you have creeps.
14:00 We traded really well here. This allows us to take dragon control, gets me three ward kills [off of J4's well placed pink]. Notice how when i go back in to kill the last ward, Jarvan does not enter the pit? This keeps his location a mystery, lets us do Dragon because Nid's trap reveal Gragas at blue. I should not have pushed the wave after this at 15:30
17:30 Trist is out of position. Hard engage. I almost get out of this by fail my flash. Notice i when i am high HP i position myself between trist and corki but when i am low HP i position corki between me and trist? Trist wants to kill corki at the start so i stop that. Trist wants to kill me at the end so i only present corki. I attempt to use the wall to deny vision. Either way, good trade. 2 for 1, ADC still alive to farm
19:20 We got this pick on Taric/Trist because of the vision we had(and they didn't). I probably could have ulted Gragas into the wall but the spacing was suspect. Ult gives us the HP buffer to contest dragon wards safely. I know Taric placed one when he came up so I make sure to clear it. I get another pink when i go back because i know that taric should be getting one after seeing my clear his.
21:00 this fight was a huge throw by them. No vision in tri, knows people are close because just saw them at dargon. Walks to tri anyway. Trist gets caught, taric walks into try anyway. Zyra plays this really well by abandoning them and taking mid/killing Nid.
23:00 i baited Gragas into this. I knew he was behind me and also knew where Zyra/Vlad were. No need to use abilities until he is nice and vulnerable. Note that by standing next to him, i body block his body slam so he cannot cross the wall. He still should have got out, but knocked Nid the wrong way
24:30 i should have ulted way earlier so i could have healed him. I was in 2v2 mentality and going for trist though. Both of us die because of it
26:20 Zyra still does a lot of damage. This is a great trade for us though. Corki's w was brilliant
27:00 Oh god those Garen tower hitting animations
General Note: So at this point I am 100% going for Banner of Command because i feel like we can win/kite 4v4 or 5v5 engages long enough that we will win the game with a split push. Banner gives us two splits
27:55 2 man no smite dragon. Fucks Given: 0
29:20 Don't Chase. Especially the highest damage member of the enemy team when she has strong turn\
30:00 Only scared about lack of baron wards because we have vision of the enemy team other times. I get oracles very late this game as a note[largely because our objective control did not require it]. In this fight i tried to ult to heal jarvan. He died too fast. We also did very good on taking objectives after this marginal team fight win.
We get lucky with the disco at the end but that game was over by then
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On November 27 2013 17:57 Goumindong wrote: Maxing shield gives you 40 shield and 10 ad bonus. An Ad bonus which you generally wont be able to use because you lose the ad when the shield is down and the shield will almost guaranteed to be burst through until you have ap. Additionally the skill costs more.
Maxing Zephyr gives you 55 damage per level. It gives you 2% move speed per level. It gives your slow another 4% slow per level. It reduces the cd of the ability by 1'second per level (down to 8). You trade better with w because of the increased base damage, move speed which let's you dictate engagements easier, a slow which helps you generate picks and prosecute trades which end up favorable, and cdr to do it faster. You don't actually get 55 damage per level from W due to enemy MR, right?
An ADC with no magic resist masteries and flat MR glyphs (standard) gets a base of 42 MR at level 1. If you run magic pen marks (because you love maxing W) you're still dealing with about 34 MR which is about 25.5% reduction. That means until you get your MR pen item (if you even get it before the end of laning phase) you are actually getting 41 damage per level on said ADC which is much much closer to shield's scaling.
And it gets worse from here. If you are unfortunate enough to not be able to hit that ADC with your W, that tanky melee support will have more (*much* more in some cases) MR than that due to masteries, MR glyphs, MR gain/level and MR from abilities. Or that enemy AP support that gets chalice at minute 5 or something also has a bonus 25 MR.
On the other hand maxing shield gives you 40 shield per level that is always 100% effective no matter how tanky your opponents are.
Not that I disagree with other things (the increased snare and movespeed) but I don't like the claim that you get 55 damage per level from W when the in-game damage you actually inflict is going to be much closer to E scaling.
*edit* math sucks
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I mean, its not really worth arguing that much anymore. Janna basically used to hang her hat on an absurdly high SoloQ winrate. Her pro play viability has been almost nonexistent since S3 started (and really since her S2 nerfs).
Her "changes" (nerfs) going into S4, plus the ascension of the likes of Annie(who was already a good support), Taric, and Leona due to S4 changes is just adding insult to injury in all environments for Janna.
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On November 28 2013 15:27 Sponkz wrote:I still wanna see some proof that this method works. Got any replays? Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 08:48 Zanno wrote: there are certain janna lanes where w max is fine
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting Cool, which? Like i said 2 times already, i do not see this working against Zyra/Thresh/Blitz/Leona/Annie, they should punish you real hard for trying to trade in low range. you listed 4 skillshot champions, two of which can be interrupted by janna q and totally shut down, and one of which has a skillshot that is relatively difficult to hit. the only way they can punish you is if you make a mistake and get hit, you have passive rocket shoes, if you dont have a fast trigger finger its your fault. then you list a super squishy ap support that should actually be the target you feed off at early levels, and then you listed the current op fotm who beats everybody.
the key is you have draven backup. why would you ever allin draven during lane phase he will always win because he is draven. why would you bother giving him a little extra ad when instead you can skill to chunk the enemy for like 200 dmg then allow draven to get an extra 3 autos in and then have 400 movespeed to get in position so they cant even flash the q that lets draven secure the kill
if you were to go vayne/janna and max w you are going to have a bad time because vayne cant do a lot to follow up with you, but on man mode adcs, w max is strong
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On December 05 2013 13:20 cLutZ wrote: I mean, its not really worth arguing that much anymore. Janna basically used to hang her hat on an absurdly high SoloQ winrate. Her pro play viability has been almost nonexistent since S3 started (and really since her S2 nerfs).
Her "changes" (nerfs) going into S4, plus the ascension of the likes of Annie(who was already a good support), Taric, and Leona due to S4 changes is just adding insult to injury in all environments for Janna.
She still seems fine to me. Lee Sin/Shyvana/Rengar/Kha'Zix/Skarner just to mention a few highly benefit from the movement speed bonus and scales surprisingly well with shield if fed.
@Zanne
When i wrote that i took into account what Gourmin said about being able to outplay your opponent. I've seen Leona picks where Janna was already picked, because that person probably believed that he could outplay Janna and not care for the Q's. W-max seems decent if you have an AD Carry with a strong early game i agree with that after testing it out a bit
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you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
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I've always had trouble stopping her E after I moved to the East Coast, was easier out West. Also, Leona players in the Janna matchup won't pre-emptively use E much anyways.
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On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
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On December 07 2013 07:06 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness" I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
is that why you speculated totally on why they picked leona without providing any indication you are doing anything other htan guessing that he's just arrogant?
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Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
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On December 07 2013 08:34 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 07:06 Sponkz wrote:On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness" I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs. is that why you speculated totally on why they picked leona without providing any indication you are doing anything other htan guessing that he's just arrogant?
I asked them, i didn't guess. And yes, I've seen it more than once.
On December 07 2013 10:48 killerdog wrote: Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
Seems similar to what i've been doing ^^ Still sort of sucks that the 5% cdr from utility sort of gets wasted this way, but it makes good use early-game i suppose.
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On December 07 2013 10:48 killerdog wrote: Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
True. I was writing this before Targon was nerfed. If you're going to Talisman then you don't really need the CDR from runes. In Season 3 (and early season 4 testing) i was going Morello into Codex. I am not sure that is optimal anymore with the changes to targon and the inability of Janna to get much out of the Frost Queen item (she already has a massive slow at that range and she doesn't harass well enough in lane to justify it unless you're playing against a Melee support who doesn't have all-in potential on you)
In Season 3 i would be pretty comfortable with picking Janna into almost any lane and running a W max just because of the pick/turnaround potential it affords. But i don't think i would do that (or pick Janna at all) without an ADC who has already counterpicked the enemy ADC and will almost assuredly have an easy laning phase. Even if the enemy picks Leona*.
*If the enemy has Leona and a bully ADC and your ADC is not a bully you might be able to stop the all in from Leona but you still probably won't save your ADC's laning phase.
All of that being said, I am not sure when to pick Janna now. Previously i could pick her to defend against assassins and force peel for my ADC. But the new strength of AP or Tanky supports(and the weakening of assassins) means that peeling isn't nearly as strong because you have to do it so much more and longer. If your ADC doesn't win lane or you have to shield someone who isn't your ADC then your team fight DPS/tank will suffer. I mean 100 AD is a big deal but its nothing compared to a Tibbers.
If i am going to have a rough laning phase then i need a support who can fight in lane because the gold advantage from winning lane is more important. If i am going to have an easy laning phase because my ADC is strong then i might as well grab a support who can threaten an AoE all in with the increased amount of gold which winning lane provides.
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On December 07 2013 07:06 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness" I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
There's no reason to post like this. Stop.
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I know Slayer91 and i know why he wrote that. He can take it, trust me.
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Still not a good example when trying to quell the shitposting, but my bad in that case.
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I'm trying to sedate Slayer91 with words, so i can control him like the bitch he is.
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Trying to stop TL from shitposting is like trying to stop a tsunami.
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sponkz trying to usurp my posting position by shooting verbal arrows at me but im so far out of his range i can just see them well enough to have a chuckle
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