EPT[Champion] Janna - Page 10
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
Anyway, I completely forgot Zeke's. It's a great item on a support who always stays around her carries, ie. not potentially diving into 5 enemies, like thresh or leo. I usually only get it if it's a 2v8 game, where me and my adc has to carry the world, or when we get superfed bot and I actually remember that this item exists. Howewer, with the addition of ardent censer, I feel like it fulfills the "I'm ahead, let me get a snowball-y item" spot, since both of them are boosting your adc, but ardent is an awesome item on it's own for you. Now I'd only buy Zeke if most of our team can benefit the aura, or if my adc is useless, but we have at least two ppl who benefits from the plus ad and lifesteal, and not so much from the attack speed of censer. In theory it could be an awesome burst of power, if you finish Zeke's just when your adc finished his IE and PD/statikk, but I never seen it. I don't know, the more I write about it, the more sub-optimal it seems to me, haha. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On August 02 2014 06:34 Goumindong wrote: The problem with Zekes for Janna is that there isn't a point where she can buy it, where she can't buy something that makes her more powerful right now instead of waiting for what is, essentially, a 1600 gold combine cost on top of an item that isn't even that great for her. Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it. Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs. And the plus movement speed does not warrant not buying boots. Technically, even with your two movement speed passive, you could delay booots by a lot, especially lvl 2 boots, but why not make an advantage of them? In s3 I used to not buy boots for a long time, but the cost efficency is just too good to give up. And if we are at boots, I'm gonna try going with cd boots again, now that Talisman does not have that ridiculous 20%cdr. In s3 I loathed mobi boots on Janna (some Jannas took it as staple though), always felt overkill, howewer in s4 with all the free cdrs, Ionian was really lackluster, and ninja/mercury were kinda situational, so mobies remained. (Never tried berzerker though...~~~) | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
Also, Q-s main usage is to interupt jumps, interrupt fast initiations like talisman active, or cancel channels, so basically you have to use it well in that exact time. If you can't interrupt it and the enemy already sticked to the one you want to protect, a maxed w is much more useful. If you miss your q on the Kennen who just used e, even a 3sec cd on q would not be enough. If you miss your Q on a ww ult, he won't care if you have 8 sec cd on it, or 1 year. And so on... Even if you go the ap route, riot gutted Qs damage, so you will deal much more damage with w. Edit: if you want to max w, then you should reevaluate where the game stands at lvl 7, so you can decide whether you should max it out or leave it at lvl 3 and start maxing e. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
After the Talisman changes, I think there is absolutely no points for Janna to buy boots anymore. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On August 06 2014 11:33 Sufficiency wrote: I haven't gotten boots on Janna for a VERY long time. After the Talisman changes, I think there is absolutely no points for Janna to buy boots anymore. How's that? You get 20 movement speed from an item that costs 2200 gold, while others can spend 325 to get plus 25 ms. Not to mention you are willing to skip on: - an additional plus 105 movement speed to be an absolute terror on the map and be everywhere, or - an additional 15% cooldown reduction which is the cheapest way to get the most cdr as early as possible, which +5% masteries sets you up for a rounded number, so you can go for a 10% cdr item to reach cap, or even reach the cap with cdr boots, talisman, masteries and runes. - plus 25 armor and 10% reduced damage from AAs, for those games when xins coming from the jungle, irelias from the top, and you keep skirmishing with the enemy adc Delaying boots is bad, delaying tier 2 boots is so-so. If you skip your boots for "a VERY long time", you basically miss out on the opportunity to get ahead of everyone in terms of mobility. You also have two skills which increase movement speed, so it synergizes well with your kit, you get much more for your money. It's dangerous as well, since if you use your w, then you are chained there, because everyone has at least tier 1 boots if not 2, and if you are losing the fight you are dead. If not having boots ever make you consider using a w, it's also bad, because you not only missed out on a great opportunity, it also made your options limited. It's not an excuse if you go Ardent or Twin Shadows, because both are % movement speed, and they don't have the flat ms to support. As Day9 used to say, "if you are ahead, get more ahead!". Janna has an edge over everyone with her ms boosts, so the logical step should be to make advantage of it, and not treat it as a "325 gold pocket money for everything but boots". | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 02 2014 09:15 Volband wrote: Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs. And the plus movement speed does not warrant not buying boots. Technically, even with your two movement speed passive, you could delay booots by a lot, especially lvl 2 boots, but why not make an advantage of them? In s3 I used to not buy boots for a long time, but the cost efficency is just too good to give up. And if we are at boots, I'm gonna try going with cd boots again, now that Talisman does not have that ridiculous 20%cdr. In s3 I loathed mobi boots on Janna (some Jannas took it as staple though), always felt overkill, howewer in s4 with all the free cdrs, Ionian was really lackluster, and ninja/mercury were kinda situational, so mobies remained. (Never tried berzerker though...~~~) With Talisman, Censor, and Spooky i manage 478 move speed before the Talisman Active. 549 during the active. Boots 1 takes that to 496. Boots 5 to 551, 643 active. Boots 2 510. At 480 move speed I am already faster than the rest of my team by far. I find much more speed isn't that valuable. Delaying boots really isn't that bad. Because you're fast enough and you get marginal speed bonuses as you construct spooky/censor and put points into W. Basically, how does the extra move speed get you more ahead when you can spend the money on other things? You say that Talisman's 20 move speed isn't as good as the 25 from Boots.... yea but it also comes with the Talisman active, the bonus HP/5, MP/5, and 10% CDR. Getting the talisman active 325 gold sooner is pretty valuable. On August 02 2014 09:15 Volband wrote: Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs. No, the bonus to the shield is pretty weak. Its not nearly as strong as the bonus Zekes gives. I mean, its nice, but its not that nice. Not that I don't build censor a lot. Its got a really good build path from the two of the three items i want to build all the time (aether wisp, codex, and Idol) but its combine is pretty lackluster and the only reason i build it a lot is because well, nothing else to upgrade those items into. Better than it was granted but still pretty lackluster. Edit: I am saying that i build censor all the time, because it builds out of things i want to buy for marginal power increases. Things which have move speed and AP, or CDR, or MP/5 and CDR. But the actual item itself isn't that strong, and if i could trade the passive for more move speed or AP i probably would. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
I find that there are basic flaws in your reasoning behind why should Janna's skip boots. It sounds convincing reading it through, but if you dissect it... On August 06 2014 13:33 Goumindong wrote: With Talisman, Censor, and Spooky i manage 478 move speed before the Talisman Active. 549 during the active. Boots 1 takes that to 496. Boots 5 to 551, 643 active. Boots 2 510. So investing 6800 gold into these items give you 479 ms. I just hit up a custom Janna game (taking both movespeed masteries in the utility tree), bought a moby boots for 800 gold and I have 475 ms without any points in w. You get 4 more ms if you invest 6000 gold more. Now you could say "hey, this is just as deceiving as my arguement, those items give a shitton more stats", which is true, but here comes another two problems: 1. They cost a freaking 6800 gold, and they basically make you a 3 item support (plus sightstone), so by the time you get those you are deeeeep into mid game in match which you are most probably winning. 2. Twin Shadows is situational at best, it's pretty shitty if you are behind, unless rare scenarios, like vs rengar or akali. Just for comparison, Deathcap costs 900 more gold, Mikael 50 more gold, Locket 400 more gold, Frozen heart 200 more gold. All of these items are generally much much better buys than Twin Shadows, the latter three being extremely benefical in certain games. Rushing Ardent is fine, it is a great second item after Talisman, and you can usually get away with it. I would not say it is a staple 2nd item though. Anyway, counting Twin Shadows into the equation is kinda pointless, but let's see some more testing. My base ms without w: 374 boots: 401 (325 gold) boots+talisman- 422 (2525 gold) ardent+talisman: 422 (4400 gold) boots+ardent - 427 (2525 gold) boots+ardent+tali - 446 (4725 gold) Moby boots: 475 ms (800 gold) Moby boots+talisman: 486 (3000 gold) Moby b+ ardent: 493 (3000 gold) Moby b+ardent+tali: 505 ms (5200 gold) Base ms with 2 points of zephyr (so basically when you hit lvl 8): 394 boots: 421 (325 gold) boots+tali:440 (2525 gold) boots+ardent: 447 (2525 gold) ardent+tali: 442 (4800 gold) boots+ardent+tali: 467 (4725 gold) Moby boots: 489 (800 gold) Moby boots+tali: 500 (3000 gold) tali+ardent+twin: 463 (6800 gold) With maxed W my base ms is 414 boots: 439 (325 gold) boots+tali: 458 (2525 gold) tali+ardent+twin: 478 (6800 gold) moby boots: 502 (800 gold) Any other tier 2 boots except swiftness: 458 (1000 gold for Ninja/Ionian, 1200 gold for Mercury) Now I won't make any trivia-worthy conclusion that X combo is Y% better gold wise, all I wanted to show that boots are awesome on Janna, and I even wronged myself, tier 2 boots are pretty huge too, unless your team is failing super hard. And don't say "but Volband, moby boots only gives ms, while [this item] gives this and that", because: 1. 85% (secret formula, don't ask!!!) of your strength comes from your own kit, and your kit only worths anything if you are actually there to use it. Be everywhere, help everyone, react to everything. "WHAT IS JANNA DOING TOP WTF" - that's something you can't measure in gold. 2. The only item among these (Tali-Ardent-Twin) which can greatly impact most of the games is Talisman, while I already mentioned three other items (Frozen-Mikael-Aegis/Locket) which can be better buys, even though they don't give any ms. My conclusion here is that even if you rush every game for a sub-optimal build order to keep up with your ms advantage - with which you should still not be able to capitalize on your innate ms steroids and kit, since it costs a shitton and takes too much time to finish -, you would be still better off just paying 800 gold for mobis, or the very very very least 325 gold for regular boots. And I did not even mention how great distortion and captain enchantments are, both which requires tier 2 boots. Reading it through again I did disregard the bonuses from pieces, but 1. a 800 gold item is already beating out three complete one in this contest, so comparing it to their pieces is meh 2. you should always start with the cdr pieces of the items, which means the mini ms boosts are delayed anyhow On August 06 2014 13:33 Goumindong wrote: No, the bonus to the shield is pretty weak. Its not nearly as strong as the bonus Zekes gives. I mean, its nice, but its not that nice. One shield with Censor won't change the world, yes, but having the buff 0-24 on your adc in later stages of the game is not something anyone should discard, especially since it's worth is increased by your adc's damage and crit chance, which will only get higher and higher with time. But yes, it's a nice item overall for J, even if we just look at the stats | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On August 07 2014 13:21 miicah wrote: Really the only compelling argument for getting boots on Janna is to get Captains/Homeguard. Any movespeed over 480 is wasted as it starts to decay (ie 480+100ms isn't 580) and at 480 you will already be zooming. With Janna you are bound to exceed 480, it's nothing terrible, no one aims to 580 or anything, just to get fast, well, fast, and nothing will help you more regarding this goal, than getting boots. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 07 2014 04:58 Volband wrote: So investing 6800 gold into these items give you 479 ms. I just hit up a custom Janna game (taking both movespeed masteries in the utility tree), bought a moby boots for 800 gold and I have 475 ms without any points in w. You get 4 more ms if you invest 6000 gold more. Now you could say "hey, this is just as deceiving as my arguement, those items give a shitton more stats", which is true, but here comes another two problems [ed: cut for space] Yes but i don't need 480 move speed at level 5 what the shit am i going to use it for? I need only slightly more move speed than my ADC, its why no boots Janna worked in Season 3. I get 390 from just coin upgrade, i get 409 with Talisman (both with 1 point of W) and 497 with the active. I add an Aether wisp and I am at 426. And sure i can spend 800 gold for mobo's to get up super fast immediately and i can run back to lane with them and dink around zoned off the creep wave because my carry isn't there yet. Or i can also get incrementally faster while working to powerful actives like Twin Shadows. I should actually be a bit faster than those breakpoints because that is with only one point of W when realistically you get your second at 8 and third at 10 at the minimum All of these items are generally much much better buys than Twin Shadows, the latter three being extremely benefical in certain games. Rushing Ardent is fine, it is a great second item after Talisman Ardent Censor is 40 AP for 2200 gold. Twin Shadows is 80 AP for 2400 gold. Deathcap is 1200 gold more than TS, not 900. I don't know how you can say that Censor is a good rush item but Shadows is not considering that shadows has a better unique(especially the earlier you get it) and just as much CDR and nearly as much move speed but twice the AP If you're buying Mobi boots I am getting twin shadows(or censor) 800 gold earlier than you are. If you're getting Mobi boots I am getting talisman 800 gold earlier than you. Basically as Janna i want to build move speed, AP, and CDR all at the same time. I want to do it in 600 to 800 gold increments, so i ignore DFG and deathcap unless i get very lucky on a back. I only want Mikaels if they have CC i need to prevent. Otherwise i want to make picks. I want to be fast enough to lead my team, but not so fast that they can't keep up The earlier i can get my core team movement speed items (Talisman) and Scounting/pick tools (Twin Shadows) without sacrificing CDR One shield with Censor won't change the world, yes, but having the buff 0-24 on your adc in later stages of the game is not something anyone should discard, especially since it's worth is increased by your adc's damage and crit chance, which will only get higher and higher with time. But yes, it's a nice item overall for J, even if we just look at the stats 25% attack speed isn't that much. Consider the carry with the lowest AS in the game and phantom dancer, it adds 10% total attack speed for her. Nice but potentially not even usable as she attack moves. It mean its not bad, i buy the item, its just not amazing edit: I mean look, if i am going to buy boots on Janna its going to be Mercs, or Swifties (maybe CDR but then i've got other itemization issues since the core purchases i want all have CDR) and then get captain. But the extra 50 base on mobi's is wasted on Janna | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
Is extra MS bad? Well sure it never hurts. Does it really brings an edge? I'm not good enough to judge. On August 06 2014 12:03 Volband wrote: As Day9 used to say, "if you are ahead, get more ahead!". Janna has an edge over everyone with her ms boosts, so the logical step should be to make advantage of it, and not treat it as a "325 gold pocket money for everything but boots". With that same logical step you would rush frozen mallet on Ashe every game because she has an autoattack slow edge on everyone. Same thing with sustain: if you already have good sustain from your kit, you often delay/avoid buying extra sustain. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:48 NpG)Explosive wrote: Janna with 21 points in utility, 1 rank in zephyr and nomad's medallion has about 395 MS which is as good as an adc with boots2 and zeal and probably higher than most mids with boots 2. And it will only gets better with more ranks in zephyr and talisman. Is extra MS bad? Well sure it never hurts. Does it really brings an edge? I'm not good enough to judge. With that same logical step you would rush frozen mallet on Ashe every game because she has an autoattack slow edge on everyone. Same thing with sustain: if you already have good sustain from your kit, you often delay/avoid buying extra sustain. Does Ashe have to ward the map from deep into enemy jungle, to baron and dragon, constantly allocatng the wards to grant vision the currently most important objectives? No she doesn't, she likes the nice attack speed from berzerker's and the ms is good enough so she can kite in teamfighths if someone peels for her. Does Ashe want to be everywhere on the map? No, she wants to farm, to have items, to be relevant. She won't just randomly rush into a skirmish around top lane when there are tons of creeps bot. Moby boots is generally considered the playmaker boots, and it's true whether you buy it on supports, or assassins or junglers. It certainly gives you an enormous edge, if you can utilize it. It is a waste if you plan to stand next to your adc (after laning phase) for 5 straight minutes as he afk arms, goes back to base, then return to afk farm. Your job is not to get 6 items as soon as possible, your job is to support your team. The most flashy example of mobi boots users are Leona, Thresh and Blitz, because they usually net kills with it, while the likes of Janna "just" denies or help securing these; still, both are sponsored by mobies. I remember in s3, when supports were broke, many (especially Jannas, almost every high elo game I spectated, Jannas were rushing it) just rushed mobility boots after the gp items. It was the cheapest item to influence the game with. I myself was an Ionian guy, but I bought it with the same goal in mind: cheapest cdr and mobility ---> have a greater impact. Getting to 40% cdr was a bitch. I would not compare the innate ms boosts of Janna to the likes of Ashe with her slow. Her slow eventually becomes godlike (edit: and Ashe has the luxury to wait, as Janna you are already really strong at lvl 6, you just need to utilize it), and all she needs is actual damage to make it work. Also, I'm pretty sure frozen mallet does not cost 800 gold, and especially not 325. Sustain is the same: gets better with damage. Movement speed has nothing to go hand in hand with. You are either fast or you are not. If you want to get to 478 ms with buying talisman, ardent and twin shadows(again, by far not the best item) , by the time you finish them, no one will care how fast you are, the room for plays you could have done if you had the extra mobility are long gone, you are grouping up, looking for teamfights. The whole point of mobility boots is to create"... and then suddenly Janna" scenarios. Ionian, Nina T and Mercury still give you a pretty good mobility for their cost, while also adding more presence for you, especially the former two. Mercury is much more defensive, and implies that you don't want to get caught because they probably have a good pick comp. And these are the tier 2 boots, I really can't wrap my head around how spending 325 gold on an item which instantly gets 4 movement speed modifiers is not a good buy. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Man what? Look, unless you get your mobi boots before you get your coin, talisman does not cost 2200 gold. It costs 1335 gold a mere 500 gold more than Mobis. But after you have your talisman the need for mobis is almost ended due to its powerful active | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
First of all, I never recommended mobis before talisman, I only said it does not replace it. And how is an ms boost for a few seconds ends the need of mobility boots? You speed yourself up for warding, or what? Talisman is a situational item, if you need that extra boost to get there or to get ouf of there. By no means it replaces an item that gives you the power to be everywhere, everytime. Twin Shadows is situational as well, the only exception is that while collapsing or fleeing is a very recurring theme during a game, using ts to catch someone otherwise he could escape is not at all. And I should sticky it to my every post that it's a sub-par item. I absolutely love it in the rare instances, when needed, but if you just keep buying it because "hey, look, shadows, how cool is that?" you should rewatch your replays and count how many times was its' active really useful. Like, how many times it actually mattered. TS is an item you either need fast, or you don't need at all, you can just spice your later build up if you prefer it. It's most useful if your team has no initiation for some reason and you desperately need picks, or versus certain assassins. @miicah Mobis cost 800 gold, there's not a single item in the game you can change the world with. Even items like frozen heart or dcap (referring to the shield's ad boost here) actually scale with OTHERS progression. The best early item is probably aegis and locket wth it's flat mr, since it's a great equalization for haunting guises and/or mpen boots. And I don't see s3 a bad example; every support was gold starving, so high elo jannas could think like this: "If I don't spend on boots, I can still match other's ms while getting actual items!" Also, mobis were more expensive back then. @Zdrastochye There are diminishing values, yes, someone already mentioned it as well. That's why I don't encourage anyone to run ms runes, or rush all the ms items. Howewer, as I said, it's not a Talisman or Mobi arguement. I side with Talisman AND tier 2 boots (it does not have to be mobis, but most of the time it is the best). You'll have 500 ms with lvl 2 zephyr, tali and mobis instead of the what, 508? I think it can be swallowed. And yes, her team fight presence is her true strength, but unless you play aram, you won't see constant teamfights, you will be zipping around, helping out, as you perfectly described. Now, what's the fastest way to ensure you can zip around the fields of soloq, where random shit happens all the time, and you could (and you should) mean the difference? Boots. Let's see some challanger guys from NA/EUW/EUNE Gleeb: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/51051694#matches (not only he gets mobis pretty fast, he even puts there the alacricity enchantment, something that Jannas do not need ofc) Kiwikid: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23424599#matches (fuck that guy, but still, he's challanger) Krepo: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/50289084#matches Xpecial: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/19199530#matches (he did not buy any boots in his Janna game) Eldiov: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/22281234#matches (apparently he got boots pretty fast on Janna, but he is running frostqueen, so no Tali) NG TZeeD: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/35452243#matches (mobi boots and talisman in Janna games as well) SzörösFaszúMágus: http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=SzörösFaszúMágus (the first challanger guy who actually has Janna in his top 3 played champs. Tali and mobi; aside from his name if you know hungarian, ruby sightstones are interesting as well) ShakeVaniliowy: http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=ShakeVaniliowy (the first challanger guy who played most of his games with Janna. Let's just say he likes mobility too, I did not want to get into boots of swiftness for a reason, I think it's BOS on Janna is a whole different topic, so yeah, he likes speed with Tali too) So, aside from that 1 Janna game from Xpecial, where I guess he wanted to test where she stands now after the buffs (expect Janna in play-offs, hm-hm??), everyone went with tier 2 boots, and even the Janna, who only went mobis because he went spellthief, he mostl ikely would went for a t2 boots (maybe mobis, who knows) anyway, since he obviously wanted THE speed. Ignoring the Jannas, you can see how favorable mobis among supports. I don't want to recheck, but I'm pretty sure most of them have movement speed runes for the likes of Thresh and Leona, so they are not just compensating, they actually want to be everywhere. Not ignoring Jannas you can see that all of them goes for tier 2 boots pretty early. What I see is that a Leona or Thresh without ms quints and any point in utility (I don't have time right now to check, and I suck at math so I won't even try it without being ingame haha) will have 440 ms, so let's say it's 455 with the utility tree being used. With Janna you have 440 ms with boots+tali and 2 points in zephyr, 458 with 5 points. So basically, you match their mobis with tier 1 boots (when you'll have maxed zephyr, which only comes later). If you refuse to buy even a tier 1 boots, all the other supports will be more mobile than you - except Lulu, though she has whimsy -, the supposed queen of mobility. In exchange for giving up your edge over everyone else, you can get 10% cdr (won't mater if someone is catched, you either save him in 1 go, or he's dead) or some extra %ms, which is shit without base ms, and the 30 ap is kinda worthless, and it's also expensive for what it does. If you choose to buy a tier 2 boots that's not mobis or BOS, you will be faster than any other support with mobis while having a stat advanage, and if you go mobis or BOS, you'll be the ruler of the map (BOS also boosts your teamfights, but don't talk about that naoooo). | ||
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