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On August 31 2014 00:47 Complete wrote:
Who lanes well/synergizes well with janna?
I have a lot of trouble making it through the laning phase with janna...I like playing her though...
Everyone here answered this question in the wrong way. Janna isn't good with or against any specific AD. She has strengths and weaknesses to supports but not to ADs*
Janna is good in lane if your AD is stronger than their AD. If that is the case then Janna's move speed, shield, and zephyr ensure even more favorable trades and Janna's tornado prevents hard engages*. If Janna's AD cannot trade favorably then your shield will do little but drain your mana and your zephyr will just put you in range to take more damage.
Similarly Janna's shield isn't needed by late game ADs because they have the tools to carry late anyway. Rather she wants an early game AD because if the game does happen to get late the extra 50+ AD will even up the difference between the early game and late game kit thus letting your peel and steroid shine. For a true late game AD you want more guaranteed peel (like lulu, or Alistar) to ensure your AD cannot be killed or better/more reliable AOE peel/disengage like nami to protect your whole team
The exception to this is of you counter their support hard enough that your AD weakness doesn't matter. If the enemy is Leona(pre 6) and you're comfortable interrupting her dash then it doesn't matter if your AD is weaker than theirs because it's 2v1. But it's rare to get an enemy support that you completely counter like that since so many other supports have good matchup versus Janna.
*1: except trist but that is mainly because trist is so weak in lane against everyone. A single W on them or they support guarantees a good early game trade and pushes her off the creep line so long as your AD isn't brain dead.
*2: you can also use your nado offensively at level 1 to get some free damage on the enemy(make sure to get a follow up auto) so long as you don't expect a level 2 gank from their jungler. This is because if they gap close they will be in your creeps and will lose and if they can engage without your nado down then your nado being up doesn't matter.
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On September 01 2014 03:41 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2014 00:47 Complete wrote:
Who lanes well/synergizes well with janna?
I have a lot of trouble making it through the laning phase with janna...I like playing her though... Everyone here answered this question in the wrong way. Janna isn't good with or against any specific AD. She has strengths and weaknesses to supports but not to ADs* Janna is good in lane if your AD is stronger than their AD. If that is the case then Janna's move speed, shield, and zephyr ensure even more favorable trades and Janna's tornado prevents hard engages*. If Janna's AD cannot trade favorably then your shield will do little but drain your mana and your zephyr will just put you in range to take more damage. Similarly Janna's shield isn't needed by late game ADs because they have the tools to carry late anyway. Rather she wants an early game AD because if the game does happen to get late the extra 50+ AD will even up the difference between the early game and late game kit thus letting your peel and steroid shine. For a true late game AD you want more guaranteed peel (like lulu, or Alistar) to ensure your AD cannot be killed or better/more reliable AOE peel/disengage like nami to protect your whole team The exception to this is of you counter their support hard enough that your AD weakness doesn't matter. If the enemy is Leona(pre 6) and you're comfortable interrupting her dash then it doesn't matter if your AD is weaker than theirs because it's 2v1. But it's rare to get an enemy support that you completely counter like that since so many other supports have good matchup versus Janna. *1: except trist but that is mainly because trist is so weak in lane against everyone. A single W on them or they support guarantees a good early game trade and pushes her off the creep line so long as your AD isn't brain dead. *2: you can also use your nado offensively at level 1 to get some free damage on the enemy(make sure to get a follow up auto) so long as you don't expect a level 2 gank from their jungler. This is because if they gap close they will be in your creeps and will lose and if they can engage without your nado down then your nado being up doesn't matter.
I'm sorry man, you are completely wrong here.
First of all, every support is better if your ad is good, so I'm not sure why did you bring it up. If your ad is stupid you can keep him alive at least, if he's good you can do nasty stuff with him eventually and he can utilize your shield. One of Janna's strength actually is that she can carry an adc in lane, but if he remains a pussy in teamfights you can't help that with all the peel in the world.
And yes, Janna IS good with specific adcs, but to understand it easier, let's say she has synergies with specific kits:
Poke: ranged poke and eye of the storm is huge. Not only it is hard to trade with poke champs (Cait, Varus, Jinx, Ashe, etc), you make it even stronger and your opponent will be less likely to try to fight back. Basically you force your enemies to eat dirt, whether by taking free (and increased!) damage or by zoning them for the shield's duration.
Skills with good range and good AD scaling: Graves Q and R, Varus Q, MF Q, Cait Q and R, Jinx W and R, Ashe W, Lucian's Q and passive, etc. No one will die because you made one of these stronger once, but when you eat the third shielded Graves Buckshot, things will get ugly real soon, unless you are already dead, lol. Lvl 3 Janna E with same lvl MF Q hitting someone with the bounce damage is quite funny.
Unmobile marksmen: If an adc does not have a jump or dash it's usually to balance out his kit. Miss Fortune can deal retarded amounts of damage just by moving through her skills and standing in one place, but once you jump on her she's dead. Janna is great to balance that out, and erase such weaknesses. I'm not saying she is better with these adcs, but she makes them much more viable.
Janna-Caitlyn lane is just unbeatable, and the amount of harass you have to survive under turret from them is just crazy. Janna Draven is the epitome of early agressiveness, there is no "wait lvl 2" bullshit, Draven makes 2 spinning axes and goes the fuck in with the shield. There is absolutely no trade in that. With every level that lane just gets sillier and sillier, and while Draven is quite vulnerable when you rush him down, Janna Draven is the new Leona/Taric Graves, it's just less flashy. You die in 3 axe and can not ever go on him, it's much more boring than seeing all the cool animations and explosions. Still, the end result is the same. Draven Janna gets worse by the time teamfights start breaking out, and things like Janna-Ashe or Janna Trist will be harder to deal with for your opponent, but we were discussing lane synergies, so yeah.
So these were the freewin lanes, now let1s see the champs I put inthe "great" category:
Varus: Buy some blue potions on Varus, and Q them to death. EZ. His attack speed bonus works well with the bonus ad.
Lucian: Burst and mobility. OK.
Miss Fortune: Her Q harass and the W for 1v1s supported by the shield and peel is unfightable. She's like a Draven light for Janna.
Jinx: Safe rocket harass, insane W damage, insane ult damage and shield works well with her minigun as well if she can stack it up. She's a Caitlyn light for Janna, except she is stronger in face to face fights.
Now let's see the champions from my worst category:
Vayne: Talked about it a lot on the previous page.
Ezreal: It has been discussed as well, Ezreal is a self-supporting adc and he is much better with supports who doesn't rely on their adc as much as Janna.
If you want a support who doesn't hae great synergies in lane, look at Sona. She can poke and give an extra damage ability to her adc. Which adc can use the extra attack? All of them. She can heal and give them a temporary shield. Who likes heals and free shields? Everyone. She can speed them up. Who doesn'T like being faster? Everyone likes being faster.
She gets synergies when she gets lvl 6, as such an aoe stun is best combined with huge aoe damage, like Ezreal R, Graves combo, etc. and easy follow up, so adcs who have jumps, dashes, free flashes. But pre 6 she can work well with everyone.
And don't say such a thing that Janna's shield is not needed by late game adcs, lol.
- Hey, dear late game adc, do you want a free bf sword to your 50%+ crit chance, ~1.8 aspd and inceased critical strike damage?
- Fuck off, who needs that? Not me.
- Hey but what if you have a skill that enormously increases your aspd, so technically my shield will get even better for you!
- I don't care, still don't want it.
- And what if you have a lot of skills which scale off very good with bonus AD?
- I don't want bigger burst, who wants bigger burst?
- And if I go AP, and I give you a 100 ad instead of 50 with a shield that's much harder to pop?
- You mean, 100 ad which is much more than items that almost cost 4k gold give? No thanks, shield yourself or whaever, but leave me out of this!
Yeah, no, dude , that's not how it works. Janna's E scale into late game like a beast, and since she is a mid/late game support, she works well with mid and especially late game adcs in the long run. Yes, she sucks hard time with Kog in lane, but late game Kog with late game Janna? Not funny.
No one has more reliable peel (unless you miss all the qs and keep failshielding yourself, but that's another category of unreliability), not sure why people keep bringing this up, when Janna is literally made to peel. While abilities like Whimsy are awesome, nothing (aside from Gragas' ult) will come close to Monsoon. She has the lowest cd peeling spells, and you can not qss/mikael knockup and knockback. Janna is the ultimate peel support, so let's not talk about "but xy peels better", because if it was true, there would be absolutely no reason playing her. Her initial peel might be matched (Alistar with his malphite ult) occasionally, but no one can take the crown from her in fights which last long enough (eg. more than 6 seconds) for your abilities to come off cd.
Janna does not counter any single support, she just has good matchups. If you think she counters Leona then you must think that you just stand behind minions and Blitz/Thresh will never hook you. These are child tales.
1. Trist is the only hypercarry that actually lanes well, so don't say she has a weak laning. Also, your lvl 1 W should not do anything, unless you go ap with knife.
2. Yes, you can waste all your mana lvl 1, but there's not much point to it, not even with the ap route. Trying to tornado excessively (like this lvl 1 idea) is what gets Janna lanes killed or useless. A Zephyr does the same damage, costs 50 mana less and is much easier to follow up by your adc. And the range is the same, because the only way you can tornado them at lvl 1 up if you get extremely close to give them an instant q. You can try to make plays with Janna lvl 1, but a rule of thumb is that if it involves your tornado, then it's a bad idea, unless you are invading or invaded.
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Not if your AD is more skilled if your AD is stronger. If you pick Janna with trist you're going to get shat on in lane and baring an amazing turn around shat on it team fights and just generally shat on. Janna does not shore up trists weak laning*, she does not allow trist to trade favorably. She does not provide any favorable trades herself (as say, karma, or Zyra, or Leona, or x where x is just about any champion). Similarly the trade off that Janna's shield gives is NOT what you listed because the comparison is not between nothing and the shield. Yea trist loves 70 extra AD but 70 AD on trist isn't worth the damage and tank or peel that other supports bring to the table.
If you pick Janna and cait you're not unbeatable; every cait counter beats you regardless of their support. Draven or varus, gg. Draven or Varus plus lulu or nami and you're super fucked. Why? Because Janna does nothing for cait if cait doesn't out trade the enemy.
What Janna does is make a stronger AD unbeatable. But she does almost nothing for an AD who is going to lose lane.
And if you think that Janna's peel is more reliable then Lulu or Alistar you're just foolish. There are only a few times when Janna peels harder than they do (mainly against specific melee assassins who have only one gap close). Against teams with linear engage paths Nami is clearly superior because her ult can disengage the entire team where as Janna's requires Janna to be in range of their whombo to do anything. And it's not like these champions don't build CDR and so can't get their skills off CD at roughly the same point too. Janna's q has a 14 to 10 second CD and is leveled up last. Alistars q has a 17 to 13 second CD and is leveled up first so from levels 7 to 14 his peel comes off CD faster than yours. This isn't even counting his w which comes up faster than your q at all points in the game and is almost as strong peel as your ult.
Aside: at level 1 q > w for damage. It's AOE and the knock up means you are guaranteed to get an auto off without having to move into creeps. You will not run out of mana using tornado offensively at level 1 unless you use it every CD. But it's mana/time isn't any worse than her shield. (Yes than her w but nado is much better level 1 than zephyr)
* good lord yes trist has weak laning how could you think different? She has a strong all in and a good level 1 harass if the enemy has low range and can't go through minions (and so has an even worse laning phase than she does) but neither of those things work well at all with Janna. Janna doesn't have all in support like Leo or Thresh or an I or x where x is almost any other support. Janna doesn't have a strong level 1 harass game due to her low auto range and trists level 1 harass relies on people not being able to take advantage of her 16 second cooldown.
And yes in case you were wondering Janna absolutely counters Leona pre 6.
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I mean look the last two pages of your posts are just a mess of contradictions
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami"
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports"
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence"
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!"
Frankly the idea that any support is good with an AD regardless of the makeup of the enemies bottom lane is dumb. There are some synergies but those can always be countered and negated and different supports can be better given the enemies composition.
But it is especially dumb with Janna because Janna is so much more reliant on the AD than other supports just due to the nature of her kit. If you need burst Leona can facilitate burst with any AD or even mid laner. If you need tank alistar can tank for anyone. If you need damage lux, zyra, or velkoz will do damage in most any situation. But Janna only brings damage,when her AD can stay relatively safe on their own so that the shield isn't popped before damage can be done, when her AD can use the move speed to out maneuver the enemy, when you can accentuate those strengths you have.
She simply does not do those things without her AD and this makes her the most dependent on the matchup, not the least.
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First, let's clear up the non-Janna related stuff: Tristana is a good laner, there's a reason why riot nerfed her early game and why everyone is saying "good early, bad mid, good late". She's safe, easy poke, good all in, then in mid game her damaging skills fall off, and at late game her range with the maxed q becomes godlike. If you think otherwise, there is really no point of arguing, I never lose a Janna-Tristana lane, it's practically impossible, unless we derp really hard. The only safest lane is with Ezreal and Cait. Maybe you can add Corki, but Trist's point and click harass is just stupid. In teamfights Tristana is one of the most easiest and rewarding adc to support with Janna, so yeah, shat on. Ok bro.
There is no arguing Janna shield is op and really useful late game, and if you bring the arguement to such levels where you basically say "why the fuck do you pick her?" then we are not talking about her E, and I don't know why you play her. Inferior E and subpar R. Oh yes, she's a great early game support. Are you playing "how many facts can you miss in a row", or I just don't get the sarcasm?
Anyway, there won't ever be an agreement which supports brings the most to teamfights so it's pointless to even start arguing about it, one thing is sure, Janna's peel is not matched, that's what she is made for. Other supports can initiate, throw lanterns, do aoe stuns with basic abilities, give out free qss', everyone has their role, but the more versatile a support is, the less strong he is in certain areas. Look at Braum, he can peel, initiate, block projectiles, stun everyone. Does he have the best initiation? No. Does he have the best peel? No.
Janna is not tanky, Alistar is. Janna has pretty weak and extremely risky initiation power, Leona, Thresh, Ali, Nami have a much easier time doing it. Janna is pretty weak on her own, even with ap, Lulu, Nami, Sona, Zyra are damn strong in lane, you can't 1v1 them. Janna has two things going for her: mobility and extreme peel power. If she was not the best in any of these, there would be absolutely no reason to play her.
I am foolish? Few times? Really. Whimsy is reduced by tenacity and can be dispelled by items, and even though her ult is a good lifesaver, people still stay in top of your ally and Monsoon can be utilized to do all the much more. Alistar doesn't give passive movement speed, and W cd for Janna seals the deal. Sure, headbutt them away, I just permslow them while my adc kills them. Also, Janna has six tools to peel (passive, q, w, e (you need some ap here, but even the base amount is more than 3 times stronger than Ali heal and you are always in range) r knockback and r heal). Alistar has headbutt and pulverize. You can peel with them really good, no denying that, but there's a reason you can also do 5 man maplhite ult initiations with them, while you need to flash with Janna knock one or two people back, but they can counterflash it anyway. So yeah, Alistar has much more offensive power in his peeling abilities, and that's the tradeoff why Janna can be better.
Aoe? You won't hit two of them, they are not gooses to line up for no reason, unless you are blue side and you bushcamp in river brush and they walk there at the same time. But then you can also charge it up and kill them if you brought ignite, so yeah, you can cheese in that bush with almost everyone, so don't even bring this up. If you stay for the auto you might as well stay after w-ing one of them because you are guaranteed to get hit back for sure. It's even funnier if you are vs a Nami ,and her W plus auto + her adc's auto puts you much lower than her adc, while also heal him back up. Quality trade. Sure, you can abuse with melee supports, but W is better vs them as well. No you won't run out of mana, you just spent 50 mana more for absolutely no reason, and with every single tornado you use in level one that's another extra 50 mana. We are talking about a champion you can run out of mana with using manaregen runes, manaregen masteries, not using tornado at all and still go oom in soma lanes even with a mana potion. Yes, if tornado costed 50 mana it would be a better level 1 skill in lane, true. But I won't talk anyone off doing it, I keep my shield and watch people get outraded from level 1 onwards, while you can pull off big plays with tornadoes. Jeez, just use ad marks, get knife and shield yourself then put 3 points in w after that.
No, she doesn't counter Leona. Maybe you play against half assed ones, I don't know, but in a lane with four people there is no counter. Yes yes, I get it, you can tornade her E back, great. I guess the whole laning phase will be you and Leona standing face to face, she tries to E and you Q her back, and you repeat it until lvl 6. I always thought there's more to this game, but I guess I wrong, ggwp countered.
On September 01 2014 07:15 Goumindong wrote:
I mean look the last two pages of your posts are just a mess of contradictions
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami"
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports"
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence"
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!"
Frankly the idea that any support is good with an AD regardless of the makeup of the enemies bottom lane is dumb. There are some synergies but those can always be countered and negated and different supports can be better given the enemies composition.
But it is especially dumb with Janna because Janna is so much more reliant on the AD than other supports just due to the nature of her kit. If you need burst Leona can facilitate burst with any AD or even mid laner. If you need tank alistar can tank for anyone. If you need damage lux, zyra, or velkoz will do damage in most any situation. But Janna only brings damage,when her AD can stay relatively safe on their own so that the shield isn't popped before damage can be done, when her AD can use the move speed to out maneuver the enemy, when you can accentuate those strengths you have.
She simply does not do those things without her AD and this makes her the most dependent on the matchup, not the least.
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami" - So replying to someone who said Janna is the best laner with Nami and telling him why he is wrong means I agree with him? Okay.
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports" - if all of you are on an equal skill level, than yes. Just because that Nami's ad is a useless Vayne and you win with a Quinn doesn'T mean you had more lane presence, it means QUinn had more lane presence than Vayne. Not sure if she has though, Rarely seen any Quinns at bot, was just an example not including Draven or Cait.
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence" - This is where I got pretty mad, because putting so many random shit in my mouth is not cool. I never said her lane presence makes them better, I was talking about teamfigths, and I added that she is NOT better with so called "weak" adcs than with the op ones, she is just better with them than other supports, especially than non peeler ones. If you check my tier list, Ezreal and Corki are both in the bad tier in lane synergy, evne though both Corki and Ez has nice laning. Also, "weak" adcs become weak outside of lane, like MF; she has a beast laning phase so there's no need to make up for anything. Pls stahp.
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!" - Well I'm not entirely sure which statement of mine did you generalize and miscommunicate like this. I said she sucks with Kog or Vayne for example because they are really vulnerale in lane (and you don't have the tools yet to peel efficently). She's also bad with Corki and Ezreal, even though, chances are high you won't lose the lane. There you go, now I just said she is weak with week laners and week with good laners as well! Mind fucking blown, but if someone actually reads what I write, and not trying with his best to try to make a fool of me, then he will understand. The only time I generalized is when I talked about synergies, and I said she is great with good ad sclaing abilities and champs who have ad burst, + she eventually makes up for ones immobility.
There are duo lanes which are extremely strong, no matter what the enemy brings. You can't counter a Janna-Caitlyn and you have to play balls to the wall with a very strong duo to beat Janna-Draven. On the other hand, there are extremely useless duo lanes as well, works both ways.
Yes, Janna is a reliant on her adc, she is the guardian angel type. Guess what, there are adcs out there who need just that. Put it together, and whether in lane or outside of it (or at both, I'm looking at you Cait) it will be a crazy good composition. Is Janna the best support for Cait in lane? No, but right now the question was which adc works well with Janna in lane and not which adc works well with Janna in lane, and which support works better with that adc. Also, I'm fairly convinced Janna is the best utility support for Draven, Morgana coming fairly close, but of course, feel free to argue with that. The main point is that they wreck faces. And no, before you say "Janna-Draven 100% winrate everyone - Volband", I did not say that, though I'm pretty sure my winrate with them - aside one dc - is 100% in this season, lol.
The point of your shield in lane btw to force trades, not to consider it an egg, you can not break. Man, the best feeling for me when they break the shield, because it means not only I put the extra ad to good use, I (or my adc, matter of perspective) could utilize the shield portion of it. Also, I bet that Lucian who just got hit by two shielded spinning axes by a Draven who rushed at him at lvl 2 will be fucking joyful that he popped the shield in return. "Haha, you might almost two-shot me, but you don't have the shield now. AHAHAHA, where you at Janna?!".
Expand your mind, there is a reason Janna is considered among the hardest champions to master. If she was a "pop her shield then it's gg" champion, I would not main her for 3 seasons now for sure. Sounds boring and volatile. I love her because I can do things no other champions are capable of (this is a statement that can be pick out of its' context btw, so go ahead " "-it into something I never implied), she's impossible to master thus I enjoy every single game with her, and I like making plays and being the unsung hero at the same time. It's especially rewarding when I'm recognized and added for some nice words after the game.
I love the versatility of this champion, I keep checking out higher lvl Jannas and it's amazing how differently we think, best example is the knife vs coin route. I'd love to argue with someone supporting the former, but you just say Trist is a weak laner (okay, not Janna related, but come on now...), Q start is good (okay, this is my nitpicking, you won't lose the game just because you do this), she is not the best peeler, her shield is meh, and she is best with early game adcs, because of your opinion on yher shield. That's just silly and I don't really see much point arguing those points more - people can learn whatever they want from this arguement -, I'm confident in my experiences with her, and while such things as tier lists can be argued, because it is heavily affected by my taste and preferences, peeling power and value of e... not really.
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Well clearly it's arguable because you seem to think that the offensive power of e is amazing and that it remains so when your ad is countered by theirs. Which is a backwards stance. If your ad trades poorly then you get nothing out of he shield besides the HP. If your AD trades well then the offensive power of e is less necessary compared to increased engage potential of w.
Yea if draven gets two shield empowered axes off at level one its a lot of damage but it's not as much as the three empowered axes he can get off with a q or w start.
Yes she peels well but her primary advantage is when she doesn't have to so that the ad on her shield actually makes an impact. You say that Alistar has tank and engage and [i]therefore[i] he has less peel but ignore the fact that Janna has consistent damage* on her shield and the effect that that must have on her peel by your logic. Besides the fact that that is a weird stance it's internally inconsistent.
Yes I absolutely think that her e is redundant on the hyper carries. Hyper carries don't need a handful of more damage so that they kill someone in 3.2 shots instead of 3.7 they need someone who is going to entirely stop the enemy team from killing them. They already will win a straight up fight they need someone to ensure that a straight up fight will happen. But ADs without steroids absolutely need those buffs because they won't win the straight up fight without them compared to a later scaling AD.
Why do you think Braum is so highly valued by professional teams? It's not because of his ally steroids. It's because he has three mechanisms for ensuring a fight that has to go through him first rather than his AD and that is precisely what late game ADs want and they couldn't care less for a steroid (this is also why Janna is so good against him, because her shield negates that advantage of the enemy teams carry! Which forces Braums team into a position where they need to make picks which is something Braum is bad at)
*Indeed the highest consistent damage buff for ADs in the game! Higher even than many ADs self steroids.
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Maybe this will make sense.
Your shield, in order to be valuable, needs to be popped or to be actively in an engagement for a significant amount of time in order to be valuable.
Early you can make two kinds of trades, pressuring trades where you get an ability or auto and continue to pressure, or single where you get a single ability off then have to back off
Generally your AD is stronger you want to have more pressuring trades because it allows you to push and solidify your advantage. Supports which are good with a stronger AD allow that AD to continue pressure really hard. Nami is the quintessential example her slow on autos lets her AD get more autos and lets her set up for a bubble which either forces disengage or dash off a single trade pressured.
Is Janna's w or e better for those types of trades? Well early it's definitely her w. On the stipulation that you win the trade then making the trade go on longer is what brings the most advantage. Similarly before your AD has other multiplicative scaling items the AD and especially AD per level (9) don't compare to the extra attacks from the extra slow and 50 damage from the ability.
Now of your AD is weaker you want to have short trades because you can stay even in short bursts (usually, at the very least if the enemy is stronger after the trade they would want to pressure and by extension we don't want that to happen). In this instance the advantage of the shield only happens if it pops since in terms of damage 9 damage used once/twice will never beat 50 damage.
Again w is slightly better(so long as your AD has sustain). But neither option is particularly good since the enemy wants to continue to pressure and you don't have a way to make them stop pressuring (except a which is expensive and on a long cooldown). You can't do this forever and you certainly can't do it before they want to pressure again.
Late game the effect of the shield is strong regardless of how it's used. But it's still stronger on champions which don't have strong sf steroids. Both because of diminishing returns on single champion value but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage.
Edit: anyway so you seem to think that the scaling on the shield is amazing. So let's figure out what it is.
To start its .1 AP attack as physical damage (500 AP to double). Which is about half the strength of on hit AP scaling abilities like Kayle et al. However because it's raw AD it is multiplied by their stats. So let's say they attack 2 times a second, have IE and 55% crit. In that case it's .38 AP damage as physical per second in scaling. All in all pretty weak.
How weak is it compared to a damage ability? Well if you only get 2 seconds of dps then it's clear it's equivalent to about 180+.75 AP damage as an ability.
That is kind of low you have to get three seconds out of the shield on a hypercarry to make it equivalent damage as a damage ability. This is one reason why, if you have a hyper carry, that you are less concerned about the damage and more concerened about the peel. And why you would even prefer someone like lux who with 400 AP would do 2000+ damage with her combo as your support if you don't need her unique mix of consistent damage and peel.
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When I talk about E's scaling, I mean the scaling with her adc's items and levels. It gets stronger as your adc gets more aspd and critical chance. If you go ap it's straight out retarded, because ~400 ap is easily achievable, you don't even need meijai. But let's talk about a regular utility Janna.
Janna's overall best adc is Caitlyn, because they have a great sinergy from lvl 1 to lvl 18, it's deifnetly the safest combo. Now let's see another math.
Caitlyn (lvl16+): Let's say she has 300 ad 2.0 attack speed and 50% crit chance and 25% increased crit damage for easier math. This means she gets 2 shots off in every second each dealing 300 physical damage and one of them will crit (yes, it's rng, but I want my example to be readable, I know it could be better or worse). That's 975 damage in 1 second. In 5 seconds she deals 3900 damage from 4 regular and 4 critical strike, and she deals a headshot (+450 damage instead of 300) and a critical headshot (125% attack damage *1.25 from infinity= ~150% = 750 damage instead of 675) which means 5100 damage.
Let's see the same with eye of the storm. 4550 damage from the 4 regular + 4 critical strikes, an extra 525 damage from headshot and an extra 875 from critical headshot which means she deals 5950 damage. That's 850 damage more with 0 ap eye of the storm in a game where even tanks have around ~4k hp. We will never get the effective damage, because I rounded things up, and there could be attack speed slows or enhancments (ardent censer anyone?), huge ass armors, % armor penetrations, etc. I also left out the masteries with the 3% extra damage and the 6% increased ad (or bonus ad?).
Out of curiosity, let's see a mild hybrid Janna, who has 200 ap, which can be achieved even as a utility support. Mejai helps, but an ardent and twin shadows are already 120 plus ap, and with runes it's around 150-160, but I usually just buy a deathcap, and dcap plus ardent should give that 200 ap. Anyway, Janna gives 70 ad now instead of 50, so Caitlyn deals 4800 damage from 8 shots, 555 headshot damage and 925 critical headshot which will result in 6280 damage. That's an 1180 damage increase just because you are Janna.
Do you know how could I make an even better example? If my example was not about Caitlyn, but rather Tristana, the hottest hypercarry at the moment who can easily achieve 2.5 attack speed and can shoot from insane safety. Do you know how could I make an example that sounds way worse than my Caitlyn one? If I included an adc that doesn't scale all that well and doesn't have such insane steroids. The conclusion is, that the more well equipped and the more late game oriented your adc is, the better your shield becomes.
And let's not forget Twitch ultimates, Graves or Lucian bursts, or ad assassins like Talon or Zed. Probably Ashe is the odd one out,because the shield is pretty shit on her, no streroid, lackluster W later on in teamfights (gets pretty good with peel) and the fact that she starts with a crit doesn't mean all that buch. Still, Ashe-Janna is one of the strongest teamfighting adc-support combination, but it's because both of them can peel extremely well. Of course, the shield's value go up, because that Miss Fortune might have a nice aspd steroid, but she has to kite for sure (which means not utilizing her aspd completely) or the shield will be popped (which means no bonus ad). Tristana on the other hand has a 90% aspd steroid, an op range and an escape tool. Tristana is a late game carry MF is not.
Obvious questions might arise:
- But Volband, Vayne is a hypercarry too but her main power source is her W and ultimate. True that, but with a 2 seconds cd tumble she can keep herself safe and somewhat utilize the shield. auto-q-auto, all of these can critically strike. Still, Janna-Vayne in mid/late game works because of their mobility and because hypercarries need peel, even with such escape tools.
- But Volband, Kog is a hypercarry too, but he barely has any ad scaling skills. - True, but you can't ignore the highest range on any adc (outside of Twitch, but come on now, that's an ultimate and guess what, he's a late game carry as well, and guess what, works great with Janna if you reach that point.). The best example here is MF again. She has an auto reset, aspd steroid, extra on hit damage scaling from ad and an ultimate than can apply those stacks up to 5 people. I'd rather have her with my Janna up to mid game, than Kog, but when Kog hits his threshold, I'd say goodbye to mf immidietly. As I said earlier, Janna is great with her, because she can peel for her, evening out her lack of mobility somehow, but that still won't make me more useful with her than with a late game Kog, who should be only targeted by assassin's in his W form with correct positioning, and guess what, Janna shits on almost every assassin, and if they don't have one, by the time you have to peel for Kog, the attackers are already at half hp, and I'm fairly convinced he could deal more extra damage with eye of the storm than a late game mf who has tons of skills which increase's the shield's effectiveness. But ult is easily broken and won't hit 5 people, especially not with a full channel, her W lasts for 6 seconds compared to Trist's 7 (with superior range,escape and a single-target Janna ultimate built in her) and Kog's 8 (with superior range and % hp shred), and don't forget she has to kite sooner than her hypercarry counterparts, so those 6 seconds are even less). I won't mention her.
AP Janna is highly advised with Kog though, shield can break fast on him, even though your peel is what makes you such a good pick for Kog outside of lane.
- But Volband, shield's be poppin' - I know, son. Not for Tristana or Cait, but for others, sure. Don't sweep about it. Yes, it's amazing that with 200 ap you can increase a late game Caitlyn's damage output by 1180~, which is half of an adc's life at lvl 18, and you will pretty much deal near the same damage to them, as they won't walk around with thronmails, randuins and whatnot. Still, Janna is not an E-bot. Shield popped immidietly? Who cares, your main and utmost priority (as utiltiy Janna anyway) is to keep your carry alive. There are situations where you can keep her shield up with your peeling, and there are instances when 3 goons jump on him, and it is just impossible to keep a ~300 hp shield up when the enemy assassin's have more AD to begin with. Remember, being alive and autoattacking is still much better than being dead. Look at your shield in late mid/late game as an added extra. If it's not popped your adc should murder everyone, easy peasy house cleaning, if it's popped, well, you still increased his health by ~15% and you can still act as the peeler bitch of the universe, no biggie. If youwhipped your ult howewer, now THATS big. Hell, even a missed tornado right before teamfight starts can be a much bigger deal than a shield instapopping. What is a better safety tool, shielding for ~300 hp or interrupting a bruiser's gapclose which is followed by tons of damage and interrupting channels like ww or kat ult? Easy answer.
So why is it better on late game carries? You all know Day9's famous quote: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". There is no such thing as "[...] but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage". So? Why not make him even stronger?? Have you ever seen a Jax asking his support to not use mikael's on him, because he has already outscaled them and it would be really unfair if someone cleansed a stun/root off of him?? Have you heard a Tristana complaining that she kills people too fast with her q and your e combined? Have you heard an Ashe telling you to stick to other teammates, she can already kite and too much peel would make her unkillable and the game would be too easy? I surely did not, like.. ever. It's true there are diminsihing returns, but with that mindset, don't build any ad on adcs because it will only make their armor more valuable.
You almost said the same thing as me, just with the wrong mindset towards the game. Yes, in the long run Janna is more useful for adcs who fall off later on thanks to their immbility or short range, but that does not mean you are stronger with them with late game carries. To give a first grader example with completely made up stats: Varus' winrate with Janna is 70%, but with other supports only 20%. That's amazing, but Tristana's win rate is 90% with Janna and 60% with others, so even if that's just a 30% increase compared to a 50% one, Janna is still better with Trist. You see what I'm getting at? Just because someone is a ticking time bomb by nature and will eventually be a powerhouse, doesn't mean you are worse with her than with someone who desperately needs your help to remain relevant later on. (No, I don't look down on Varus or imply he's utter shit later, I just make things simpler to understand). If you think otherwise then you are shooting yourself in the leg and put a wall in the middle of your road to progress with her.
Now all this talk was about mid/late game eye of the storm, and pretty much nothing I just said is true for laning, because Janna's E is not about the increased ad in lane, but the extremely favourable trading potential. You can calculate how much damage you can deal with W compared to E, if you won't take damage suffered into the equation. You dealt 80 damage for 80 damage (you should suffer more though, just saying) in return? Nice, max shield and deal 60 damage for 0 damage in return. Repeat it, and eventually your opponents will have to get ready for your incoming flashes under their tower. Again, I'm talking about the regular utility Janna, not the knife+ap one. Man, Pantheon could deal a shitton of damage bot lane, why don't people play him? He has zero sustain compared to sustain and targon supports (he could build targon, but then you lower his damage output and most of the other targon supports has some kind of shield/heal/extra resistances anyway), and it's really all-inish to go in with him. Why do people have success with vel'koz support? He has no sustain, but extremely good range with silly mana costs with the added true damage for the lulz. Janna without shield has no sustain (you chugging potions won't help your adc who's at half health), and a range on her W that is so easy to retaliate to. Even if you are vs melee supports, they can usually fight back somehow (Thresh maxing E, Taric stunning you), making their adc's job all the easier to three shot you.
I told you, bot lane is poke and sustain. What does E give your lane? Better poke and sustain.
You max W with Leona, for sustain, so you can have an easier time dealing tons of damage. You (usually, unless your adc is a god) max W on Nami for sustain, so you can keep up with your poking and help your adc out if he goes derp. You dump points on W on Soraka to make trading with you impossible and a watse of mana and hp.
You max Q with Karma because it deals ridiculous damage from a nice range. You max Q with Morgana because your shield only blocks magic damage, so a bigger root and Q damage is much much better.
There are supports who have the luxury to max almost whatever the hell they want, but I don't want to get too much into it. Alistar has great all-in potential and Lulu has a very safe poke for example, so it makes sense to ignore the sustain sometimes.
Also, if you maxed W instead of E and you could not completely shit on the enemy by the time you leave bot, the lack of points in E will come back haunting you. A lvl 5 E without any AP is still a great early teamfight tool to keep someone alive, the enemy won't deal 1 million damage with each hit just yet. AP Janna is an exception once again, because W can hit quite hard then and the ap ratio on her shield makes it so that you'll essencially have a ~lvl 3 E already at lvl 1 with some early items.
Ah, and why woud your adc have sustain in lane? The most important, early stages at bot he will have a whole Doran's blade, which won't help much, and later on the poke or all-in will still be greatly superior compared to a vamp scepter+doran. If you can't give sustain somehow, then your adc has none early game. "Let me lifesteal back myself from half hp" - said the valiant but oh so naive adc 3 seconds before he got all-ined.
Not sure what 9 damages are you talking about when a lvl 2 eye of the storm gives 23 bonus ad, which increases ad scaling abilities, not to mention that the biggest strength of the shield is that it lets your adc to autoattack his opponent in the first place. Yes, two regular AAs with a lvl 2 Janna shield deals only ~50 (masteries included now) bonus damage before mitigation, but if you don't shield him he could not even walk up yolo style, tanking minion aggro and whatnot. We are talking about at least a hundred damage dealt without suffering much on your own, instead of not oding anything, or putting yourself in unnecessary danger. Such a simple thing to understand. But okay, let's say your adc is really bad. Well, E max can be still deceptive, and you can use your adc as a retard magnet. Plus 160 health and 32 bonus ad can be quite a surprise after you went all in as an adc, and your Janna (blind pick example) can't do shit to help your sorry ass because she maxed W. I said it many times, it's so easy to win lanes with Janna where your opponents want to all in you. The shield is just huge.
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I doubt anybody will read that much text l0l. I'll close your argument by just saying that janna is without a doubt in a good spot now, the reason is pretty simple, all the fotm supports have been nerfed and while they remain strong the nerfs do count. I don't know why she sees so few play in pro matches. Apparently gorilla plays her a lot so I'm sure we'll see more of her at worlds.
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On September 02 2014 03:38 Volband wrote:That's an 1180 damage increase just because you are Janna.
Sure, but that isn't actually a lot of damage and if you think its a lot of damage for a level 16 champion to be outputting then I don't know what to say. Lux's Combo does about 1300 damage at that level with zero AP. At 200 AP, Lux's AoE damage is 1188 (That is, E, and R with the R auto passive proc and no auto attacks). Zyra and Vel'Koz have similar AoE damages. So while you're saying WOW 1180 damage just because you're janna you have to realize that this number isn't very large at all. Lux doesn't have great scaling and she does more damage in an AoE than you do with your entire rotation assuming your ADC doesn't take any damage.
Eye of the Storm adds 50 damage and has 500 AP to double. 500 AP to double damage is a low number, it represents low scaling, not high scaling. 300 AP to double damage is a good high scaling number.
So it doesn't matter if you're using trist instead of cait. 25% extra damage on top of "pretty low damage " is "still pretty low damage"
I am not saying that Janna is bad. Indeed her shield is very strong, her peel is very strong, her ability to be mobile with her carry in the mid game is very valuable. But what I am saying is that Janna is not the lategame hypercarry booster you think she is.
Part of this is because hypercarries don't need boosts lategame. If you're in a straight up fight and your carry is doing more DPS than their carry then the way you win is by having another tank (or another lategame damage source). Janna doesn't do that. If you're not in a straight up fight then having another damage threat, or having pure peel (like Lulu) tends to be stronger. You only need to boost your AD if your AD isn't going to be doing more DPS than them. I.E. your AD isn't a hypercarry. Because then you can get your non-hypercarry AD to hypercarry status. This is, indeed, one of the reasons why Cait is good* with Janna is because Cait has a shitty lategame and Janna shores that up.
The other part of this is because Janna's kit falls off when the entire team starts scaling hard as explained above. The only part of Janna's kit which is lategame is her full channel ult. But if you're getting full channel ults off then the other team is really not paying attention or is totally outclassed because interrupting that should be a priority.
*insofar as Cait is not countered in lane.
So why is it better on late game carries? You all know Day9's famous quote: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". There is no such thing as "[...] but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage". So? Why not make him even stronger??
That quote, it does not mean what you think it means. What that quote means is that you should leverage your strength to win as soon as you can. And that every incremental advantage you have should be used. It does not mean that "whatever your strongest aspect is the best way to get stronger is via that strongest aspect". Why would I use Mikaels on a fed Jax? Because Jax's weakest aspect is being stunned. Mikael's shores up his weakness not his strengths.
The same thing happens in Starcraft that Day 9 teaches about. You don't build one unit type in your army and/or only upgrade one unit. You build every unit type you need and upgrade every unit upgrade you need. The optimal upgrade path is not dependent on "getting more ahead". The optimal upgrade path is a question of marginal value for marginal resource usage.
So when you're thinking about "get further ahead" this really means "get ahead as soon as possible" or "if you have a lategame ADC pick an early game support this will let your lategame ADC get ahead faster" or "if you have an early strong ADC pick a support that accentuates that strength"
Now all this talk was about mid/late game eye of the storm, and pretty much nothing I just said is true for laning, because Janna's E is not about the increased ad in lane, but the extremely favourable trading potential.
Yes but it doesn't have extremely favorable trading potential. Look, in laning there are generally two types of trades.
1) Trades you want to continue to prosecute
2) Trades the enemy wants to continue to prosecute.
The last one, the one where shield is really good
3) Trades that neither you or the enemy want to continue to prosecute
Those basically don't exist. Rather there are
3a) Trades that one side wants to prosecute but cannot because it does not have the tools to continue to do so
This is why W is Janna's primary power tool in lane. Because if the enemy wants to continue to prosecute a trade, it cannot when its slowed and cannot move into range. And when you want to continue to prosecute a trade they cannot refuse because they're slowed and cannot move out of range. If i am relying on shield instead(with maybe the exception of a very proficient cait versus a low range champion) then I am giving up the ability to prosecute 1 and the ability to prevent 2 in the hope that all we get is 3a. Which is foolish. Now, sometimes you need to level shield because you cannot stop enemy prosecution with W(too risky, not strong enough). But this is not the situation you want to be in. If you're winning trades, losing a handful of HP on your AD in order to entirely ruin the other is very much worth it.
Why don't people play Pantheon support? Because his only way to force trades that your side wants to continue to prosecute is to dive into the enemy minions for his stun. This changes the calculus from something that he wants to continue to prosecute to something the enemy does. If his spear had a high strength 3 second slow on it, pantheon would be a hilariously strong support (though his build paths sucking might remove that) because every 4 seconds he would spear the enemy and then your AD would have an easy engage on them that they could not stop
Also, if you maxed W instead of E and you could not completely shit on the enemy by the time you leave bot, the lack of points in E will come back haunting you
Why would it. E gives 40 HP/level and 9 AD/level. It doesn't decrease its CD it doesn't have any utility scaling. If you're maxing W you're faster, you can make picks harder, and get your move speed back faster
Not sure what 9 damages are you talking about when a lvl 2 eye of the storm gives 23 bonus ad, which increases ad scaling abilities, not to mention that the biggest strength of the shield is that it lets your adc to autoattack his opponent in the first place.
I don't even know why you're arguing if you cannot see that 23-14 = 9 . When we look at leveling up skills we don't look at the final value because that is dumb. We look at the marginal value. "What do i get from leveling up this skill". Shield gives you 9 AD and 40 HP(90 AP worth of AD, 57 AP worth of shield). Zephyr gives you 2% move speed, 4% slow, 55 damage, 1 second CD (100 AP worth of move speed, 66 AP worth of slow, 110 AP worth of damage, 8.3-33% non-cap CDR)
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The "when ahead..." statement in sc2 refers to building a small lead into a bigger lead by macro (usually expanding) instead of trying to win as soon as possible. In fact it means pretty much the exact opposite of What that quote means is that you should leverage your strength to win as soon as you can.
The best application of this principle in lol is when you are having a small lead and you poke and go for safe dragons and turrets to expand your gold lead, instead of trying to force a teamfight.
For the rest of the Janna talk i agree with Volband 100% (I played a lot of Janna in Season 3 and those things did not really change). There are certainly adcs that work better with Janna (and Cait is one of the best because Janna has great short-trading effects in lane). I wouldn't say that Janna/Cait is unbeatable in lane, but definitely really strong. That can also be shown empirically by checking for bot lane matchup winrates. Janna's peel lategame is really strong and the added damage of the shield is nice to have. The shield is also the best laning tool and should be the general lvl 1 spell (except for invades).
Also Tristana has a good early laning phase and neither Draven nor Varus counters Cait.
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A whole lot has changes since season 3 actually. Changes that generally made a shield start a better option. Early sustain in lane has increased for supports and decreased for ADs this makes damage prevention comparatively stronger because being at low HP forces your out of lane regardless. Additionally there is more MP 5 available bottom lane which makes the mana advantages of going w less important. More importantly Ws base and scaling attributes were nerfed. (You used to get iirc twice as much move speed and slow per level) and most importantly people choose ADs less to counter the enemy lane opponent than to have late game presence, so you cannot be confident that your AD will out pick theirs if your AD has a counter pick position.
The grand "we" got into this argument in season 3 too right here in this thread back when a decent majority of high level Janna play was w max and people here didn't believe me until they tried it.
Now things have moved back a little bit from early S4 when w max was almost suicide because of the nerfs and because the power of AD self sustain outstripped your w damage and engage potential due to every AD going for a BT rush, and being early game with a lowish cd dash coupled with high damage engage or poke supports (like zyra).
Wrt ADs:
Tristana has a strong all-in but a bad early laning phase. Those things are not the same. It's why pros pick Nami with her (so Namis sustain and prevent trist from failing and because of her counter engage potential makes turning enemy lane mistakes easier) and it's why they pick Lucian against her (because he has such a strong early laning phase). Draven and Varus absolutely do counter cait. Cait cannot trade with Draven or Varus because Dravens autos are so much stronger and because Varus's autos are stronger plus he has back end damage with e/q which cait does not have. Neither of them are low enough range for cait to harass without danger and both of them have better late games even if they don't win lane super hard (which they are entirely capable of doing)
And if you don't believe me you can just go check looking to see who has the best win rates against cait (MF, corki, kink, draven in that order with almost no difference between the last three) at diamond mmr and monthly stats. Varus appears to be even but I can't actually see high mmr games since he doesn't appear in the chart unless I have all MMR included (and this is probably a function of his ideal build being so heavily nerfed)
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I'm usually a lurker... but janna has been my most played champ since I've played league... and im sorry goumindong but you literally have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever actually played Janna? Ever? Because anybody that's actually played her finds out pretty quick that your shield wins the lane, and there's pretty much no exception to leveling it as support. W is her primary laning tool? You can't just walk up and w their carry without getting blown up. Unless the other duo tries to all in you and your adc, you'll never be in range to w in the first place.
Also, saying there are supports with better peel is also wrong. Janna is king of peel, and not even ali and lulu get close. They both might have better engage but neither can compete with janna when it comes to peel. The shield is not about getting popped late game, its about keeping your carry alive, over and over again. If you're purely relying on your adc to hyper carry late game, Janna is the best support in the game. She has every tool in the book to keep people off her carry and no other support can match that.
You argue that janna is only as good as her ad in lane, but that's completely false also. Janna is one of the best supports TO pick if you know your ad is going to be inexperienced or bad. She can make hard lanes into stalemates, allow your adc to farm without having to trade inefficiently, and make up for the dumb positioning a bad adc will get into. It's much more arguable that a support like leona is reliant on their adc because if they dont follow up well on her initiation, she's fucked.
Basically every thing I've said, Volband has said much more eloquently, but it's really frustrating seeing someone rant on and be completely wrong about so many things. Is janna the best support in the game? No, but a good janna player can carry a game pretty much singlehandedly in soloq.
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Janna is my most played champion of all time. I win 61% of the time with her(though currently less in Season 4 due to not playing before the recent talisman changes and because of higher overall mmr to play against). Changing from E max to W max Janna(Suggested by a diamond friend on another board) carried me from Silver 1 to Plat 3 in Season 3 and has allowed me to hard carry lanes which would otherwise be uncarryable. Most of my losses as Janna in S4 were E max games at the start of the season trying to understand the new support play.(though I did have two good E max games recently due to weak lane choices by my AD, those largely turned because their AD fucked up big time)
There are times to E max (like when you're losing lane, or when the enemy's dash will negate the slow disengage/engage) but if you don't understand the power of W max and you don't understand the power differential of Janna in a strong versus weak lane then you don't really understand Janna. The most powerful thing that you can give your AD as any support is more time to auto attack the enemy AD. Bonus AD doesn't compare to extra auto attacks on anyone. That is why W max is so strong in strong lanes; it means that engages which you are winning go on longer and engages which you are losing stop faster.
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Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
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On September 04 2014 10:03 GolemMadness wrote:
Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
mostly the latter, played by a janna main it is pretty much impossible to kill her once laning is over. And maybe even in laning as well depending on your MU.
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Yes, let's play this!
Janna is my most played champion of all time, I won twice as many games with her than I lost this season (70% was so close  ) and has a 7-2 record as well on my cousin's acc, but that was high gold. Playing her helped me from low gold to D4/3 (lazy to play the rest of my promos) in two seasons (helped from bronze to gold as well in s2, but it was a co-op job, some other champs helped me back then as well) and never really looked for advices, just watched streamers to try to get the gist of the basis of the whole game back in s2. If someone "famous" released a Janna video (like Xpecial) I watched it, but can't say I tried to follow it. The only thing I remember learning from him is the power of not using R at all. I had 2 W max games when knife gave godlike money and 2 other knife games, but I don't think it was W max, maybe some points onto it. Anyway, needless to say I did E max and start for like 98% of the games. There was one where I started Q because we got invaded. I pretty much tried to avoid playing her too much, because I did not want to be only capable of playing her at higher levels, so there were times when I only played her when the enemy was begging for a lose with their picks. Of course, I had my streams when I just enjoyed palying her more than usual and spammed her anyway, and when diamond was in reachable sight, because I wanted to tryhard as much as possible. I also used it for most of my duo games, since I'm way too afraid of messing things up when duoing, so I cope out with using my best champ, unless we are long time duo partners. /not that I duo'd much/
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken. Like, you keep saying Trist is a weak laner and she's only good because she has nice all-in when in reality Tristana is NOT a weak laner, she's one of the safest. Like what, really. That is the point where I either don't reply and let others decide, or just try to brute force my way into winning the arguement, which is not really helpful for outside readers, nor for you. Man, Tristana is the only adc I can do decent in a lane, unless I'm vs better opponents than silver, haha. No, really, it is so goddamn safe and easy to last hit with unless I'm pushed in. No one picks Trist for all-in at bot. Graves, Lucian, Corki - great all ins. Tristana ? Not so much, only a great finisher with jumping in and slowing, but that's all - this changes at lvl 6. But she is safe, and that makes her a good early adc. And no, people don't pick Nami because she needs protection, lol. They've been picking all kinds of supports to her, but Nami broke into the holy trinity of supports lately because 1. the three got nerfed 2. she was on par with them before as well (hence the nerf when the rest of them got nerfed as well), people just played the others more. Lulu was underestimated last season as well, then out of nowhere (or from Korea) BANG! Also, how many Lucian vs Tristana games did you see in NA LCS this week, where Lucian shat on Trist or kept killing her? Lucian has better mobility, better mid game and higher burst. That's it. He is a better early game champion but too bad for him, Trist is fine as well. It's up to the support anyway. Again, if you don't want to accept this fact, there are really only a few things I can do. "Many people say that tristana's early game is weak. This is definitely not true (her mid game is weak). Tristana's early game is ok. She has normal level 1 dmg. Thanks to that she stays equal after most lvl 1 trades. " - there, a quote from a d1 guide from solomid, that hopeless I am. I had my most relaxing lanes with tristanas, because it's so fucking safe and you know with every damn level you are getting closer to unleash the beast. No, unless your opponent goes reckless or do stupid things you can't really kill them, but that's not the point.
And what will that homeboy Lucian will do to my Tristana? Piercing Light her? Hah, my grandmother could do a reactive shield for that. E-into her face to all in? Gj bro, a.) shield+trist q, get fucked b.) she jumps away if it's some kind of a super all-in or gank attempt from their jungler. Now look at Janna-Twitch, that's quite a mediocore lane until 6 unless you can cheese in some stealthed eye of the storm "HIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" play. Look how she oturanges 80% of adcs at lvl 2 (and some of them by lvl 1 as well), look at her escape skill, look how easy it is to push the lane with her, look how easy it is to harass with her, look how stupid face-to-face damage potential she has just by a lvl1 q with the added grievous wounds effect to negate the heal. I really give up if you stuck before the start line, because in the game you play under the name of league of legends, Tristana is a weak laner.
Countering Cait in lane??? How? How do you counter a champion designed to dominate her lane? Caitlyn walks into Draven? Varus starts with lvl 6 and can stop her from kiting? You seriously need to reevaluate some adcs strengths and weaknesses in lane. There are no real counters at bot anyway, but Cait is hands down stronger than anyone down there. The only time you can shutdown a good Cait if her support sucks (if Cait sucks then it's not a question) while you two rock. Also, she's not a terrible adc for lategame by any means, she's among the stronger ones. She has a shitty mid game if you can't keep momentum from your bot lane win. That's how she's designed: she has an easy time winning bot lane, but if she fails so she is punsihed quite hard. Most of these champions power curve explains a lot of things. If Trist was a shitty early and mid game champ, no one would play her. Same goes for Cait, if she was beatable in lane there would be absolutely no reason to play her.
"When we look at leveling up skills we don't look at the final value because that is dumb" - I like how you highlight dumb. You do realize that E only loses out -20/-5/10/25/40 value compared to W? Yes, until you reach level 5 and can put 3 points onto W, E actually "deals more damage" than W. Again, you rather put yourself out for danger to deal damage while suffering some as well, than dealing damage without receiving any at all. And I know I should explain it in greater details why E actually deals more damage (or any at all, to begin with) early on than W, but I'm tired and my experience is that it would be useless anyway, because if Trist has a weak early game, then she has a weak early game, despite no one ever thinking that way.
I won't even try to compare W's slow with E's added AD because that's an even more difficult thing to explain. But to the 3rd party people lurking around: The added attack damage bonus is better than the slow. You can't do long ass chases at bot lane in 2v2, especially not when you are all lvl 3 and a cannon minion could solo half your health, while E gives you a safety way to utilize the added AD. Slow is great utility, which you only need rarely at bot lane because it's kinda static. If I plan a harder all-in or I'm vs blitz I happen to lvl W second ,but that's not the arguement right now. Slowing them already puts you in danger by the way and you immidietly lose all the mobility you gained from it. What happens if your adc derps and don't do anything with your shield? Nothing, wasted mana. What happens if your adc doesn't follow up your W (which could be more likely, because retaliating to enemy attacks are much easier than being synchronized and on the same page about making an offense)? Get wrecked, pretty much.
If you want W max, then start with knife because doing it without knife is just a paradox. "Hey, I'm gonna harass them to death, so let me buy this coin for health regen, and later on, upgrade it into extra movement speed, yeah! That will show them!". Guys, we are talking about a lane where people walk away with 20 hps because the amount of surprise heals and ccs and flashes are ridiculous down there. If you want to act tough, then go tough, buy the damned knife and rambo them. To make a famous anonymous quote: "if you do something, do it right." With knife you are actually relevant vs many supports with w max, though utility ones still shit all over you, or at least they should. Also, stop at lvl 3, unless you got many kills and already bought ap, because then "if you are ahead...". And yes, I'm pretty sure I got the quote right.
"Why would it. E gives 40 HP/level and 9 AD/level. It doesn't decrease its CD it doesn't have any utility scaling. If you're maxing W you're faster, you can make picks harder, and get your move speed back faster" - Now count the amount of useless benefits you just compilated for botlane. Seriously, it's scaling runes all over again. Max W because it also makes you fast for midgame and you can pick people off? Meanwhile the enemy support is on his facebook the whole time watching you get away with it? Also, I wouldn't call saving lives "no utility". And as for the speed, get mobis, then easy life.
If you don't prioritize early game you're gonna have a bad day against decent supports.
"Eye of the Storm adds 50 damage and has 500 AP to double. 500 AP to double damage is a low number, it represents low scaling, not high scaling. 300 AP to double damage is a good high scaling number." - "When I talk about E's scaling, I mean the scaling with her adc's items and levels. It gets stronger as your adc gets more aspd and critical chance. If you go ap it's straight out retarded, because ~400 ap is easily achievable, you don't even need meijai. But let's talk about a regular utility Janna." I get better and better at this, just wait and see! As I said, E is awesome late game even without ap, but since AP Janna supports are not rare at all, I included a calculation with a hybrid Janna as well. If I wanted to be mean I would've done Lemonnation's Janna with Tristana. If killing people faster is not good then I don't know what is. And don't compare it to bullshit like Lux, when Janna has all the peel of the world on top of it, And no, I don't care if Lux hits a W to 4 other team members back and forth and snares two people with the thinnest and blockable skillshot ever, because the next thing is that she wakes up dreaming if she did not ragequit after getting demolished botlane.
"Part of this is because hypercarries don't need boosts lategame. If you're in a straight up fight and your carry is doing more DPS than their carry then the way you win is by having another tank (or another lategame damage source). Janna doesn't do that." It would be great if we had a champion that not only could give an ad boosting shield like Janna, but could also peel for him.
"The other part of this is because Janna's kit falls off when the entire team starts scaling hard as explained above. The only part of Janna's kit which is lategame is her full channel ult. But if you're getting full channel ults off then the other team is really not paying attention or is totally outclassed because interrupting that should be a priority." We have a meme here in Hungary. It's about a debate between football experts who were arguing about whether the situation was a penalty or not. It was a heated arguement, and the one who was against the penalty asked the pro-penalty guy this: "and what if we switch the roles, so the defender was the striker, and the striker was the defender?". He said it's a penalty as well. Then the other guy said that "then now I stand up and walk out of the studio, for real". This is how I feel right now. Pretty much this is why I didn't want to reply at all but since other's showed they are paying attention, I might as well, someone is bound to learn something from it.
Anyway, Janna is crazy good late game and after hearing you discredit almost everything she does I'm at a loss why are you even playing her. I like late game with Janna because I know it's almost entirely up to my performance if we win or not, unless someone yolo suicides. First of all, Janna's passive is at it's highest potential as everyone has lvl2 or even alacricity enchanted boots, so they get more out of it. Her adc is at his strongest, so her E reached it's strongest point as well. It is extremely rewarding to keep on the shield, especially with Ardent Censer. And last but not least, you reach the queen of peel status. You can talk all about Lulus and Alistar all you want, Janna is T.H.E. late game peeler monster. No, when the fight starts you don't sweat trying to ult 5 people to heal them back. No, you know the golden rule of using ult in a late game teamfight: 1. save the carry 2. do anything else. Three people are in the middle of a huge aoe shitstorm but an assassin is on the dick of your adc? No question what you do: ult the assassin away immidietly. Your ult is not in reach for him but it is for your other 3 teammembers who are suffering? You know what to do, son: flash towards your adc so you can ult the assassin away. She wants to flash back? Cute, tornado. Meanwhile permaslow with W and bodyblock all you can while using your items at the right time. Hell, sacrifice yourself, even if you have the opportunity to shield yourself, just give it to him. That 5-6 items adc can win the game for you for carrying his sorry ass in lane and giving him the easiest teamfights ever, but that Maokai eating all the other deeps is only good for one thing: eating all the deeps. If you have an assassin then he has to get the job done, not surviving it. If you have some melee carries then your ult is shit anyway unless the terrain favours you heavily. But even then, it's their support and tanks vs them.
In these late game fights priorities are straight: kill the carries. Janna has all of her strength in being able to defend people, especially a selected one. That's it. You don' only undervalue Janna's kit as it is, you discredit her monsoon so much. One of the most broken skills in the game, and a skill I could write twice as much as I did in the last two pages combined. An amazing skill.
"This is why W is Janna's primary power tool in lane. Because if the enemy wants to continue to prosecute a trade, it cannot when its slowed and cannot move into range." Or just hit tornado. Also, if you hit W to stop them peskering your adc they will just turn on you.
"And when you want to continue to prosecute a trade they cannot refuse because they're slowed and cannot move out of range." Do you... do you know E gives a shield too? Shield = extra autoattacks from relative safety without the risk of getting out losing from a trade because your adc has an extra 80/120/160/whatever life they have to peel through first to deal real damage. It's literally what I highlighted from that paragraph and you literally gave me an answer where you say bonus ad is not as good for trading as the slow.
"I am not saying that Janna is bad. Indeed her shield is very strong, her peel is very strong, her ability to be mobile with her carry in the mid game is very valuable. But what I am saying is that Janna is not the lategame hypercarry booster you think she is." - Let me sum it up. Janna is an early game beast support (not the best though) who is best suited for early game ad carries, and not even Cait can give her a hard time, because you just need a Draven or Varus to counter her; Janna has nice mid game utility with the movement speed aura and the extra mobility place wards and W random people to kill them (not the best picker though). She has an okay peel (not the best though), and she is rather meh at late game, especially with superscaling, absolute monster adcs, but if you happen to full channel an ult late game for your teammates you might be relevant in that certain teamfight.
"[...]but if you don't understand the power of W max and you don't understand the power differential of Janna in a strong versus weak lane then you don't really understand Janna." I guess I do not.
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On September 04 2014 10:03 GolemMadness wrote:
Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
Its really hard to die on Janna if you're smart(also true of say Lux, which is why Mejai's is popular on her too) in this meta which lacks hard engages and this makes stacking items really strong. Even if you don't finish it its usually worth 5-15 stacks by the end of the game which is 60 to 120 AP for ~1500 gold.
On September 04 2014 10:31 Volband wrote:
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken.
To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write.
Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
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On September 04 2014 12:24 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 10:31 Volband wrote:
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken. To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write. Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
That's not dumb at all. There is a difference between an argument being valid and an argument being sound. Volband's statement claims that your argument would not be sound, even if it was valid. That is, he disagrees with (at least one of) the premises. And disagreeing with premises is certainly allowed in a discussion.
With regard to "looking people up": Is this you? http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/19883872#profile If yes, then looking up the experience on Janna does not really help your point...
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For what it's worth, from looking through a bunch of pro games, it looks like they max E in around 90% of games. Xpecial and LemonNation maxed W once and PoohManDu did a couple of times, but in around 40 other games I looked at everyone maxed E.
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EPT
