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If you disagree with a premise typically you would explain which premise you disagree with. My premises are basically hard coded into the game which makes it strange to disagree with them. Unless you think that caits auto animation is short enough to prevent Draven from walking 75 units.
Yes that is me. I didn't make my experience a secret. I have about 400-500 ranked support games under my belt and about 120 of them are with Janna. Much higher than the 80 I have on morgana and a far cry from the "lol do you even play Janna you scrub" that evilmonkey claimed. (Though ironically the last 4 of those Janna wins have been E max, but not much else you can do playing against Lucian or Nami)
Anyway on to less dick cheerleading and more talking about Janna.
Volband you like boot Janna and pick up censor. Have you considered instead of censor you pickup morello? I was in a game that was ending and wanted to grab as much cdr as I could before the last fight so my item set was talisman, mejai, sight, codex, and the 10% cdr mana item which builds into chalice and talisman. I was going to go my normal route of censor and spooky but look at that those items combine into morello.
It seems to be that the games you're in when you don't pick up mikaels because you don't need it you could sub the censor for morello. Get to 40% cdr faster and have more AP. You can do this because you don't need the move speed on ghosts or censor if you've got boots and talisman (though losing the sg active is a rough loss)
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Doey anyone know if GorillA built Coin or Spellthief's on Janna?
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Spellthief like 99% of support players.
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I really prefer coin on nami and janna though... but I guess it is personal preference.
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You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
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Thought so, it's also what I did anyway. But I also went Morello and Deathcap into DFG after that.
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On September 04 2014 12:24 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 10:31 Volband wrote:
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken. To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write. Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
What is this cope-out? I said the basis for most of your arguements are wrong and then I explained them thoroughly. If you want to switch to girl-mode, fine, but then what's the point in participating an arguement. Not that I won't survive it, I mentioned in my not-read post as well that it was partially for the outside readers.
On September 04 2014 20:41 Goumindong wrote:
Volband you like boot Janna and pick up censor. Have you considered instead of censor you pickup morello? I was in a game that was ending and wanted to grab as much cdr as I could before the last fight so my item set was talisman, mejai, sight, codex, and the 10% cdr mana item which builds into chalice and talisman. I was going to go my normal route of censor and spooky but look at that those items combine into morello.
It seems to be that the games you're in when you don't pick up mikaels because you don't need it you could sub the censor for morello. Get to 40% cdr faster and have more AP. You can do this because you don't need the move speed on ghosts or censor if you've got boots and talisman (though losing the sg active is a rough loss)
First of all, Ghosts are situational and I advise omitting it.
I only buy Morello if they have swain or mundo, but that doesn't necessary mean I always buy it when they are against me. I have a 100% loss rate vs Swains anyway, so fuck them. For me, Morello gives no utility, and morello+talisman+mastery is already 35% cdr, so unless I'm going full ap after that (in which case I'd run 5% cdr runes to round it up, or take the offensive cdr mastery as well), it's overkill. Everything I'd buy (Ardent, Mikael, Zeke, Frozen Heart, Locket) would just make me cross the 40%cdr threshold all the faster. Yes, eventually I'll get into overkill cdr territory, but I see no use in early max cdr. I value my items effects higher; also, stuff like FH and Locket helps me to stay alive to utilize that 20-30% cdr, unlike a fast Morello.
As for Ardent and Morello... Morello gives more ap, but unless I'm peeling off mundos or aatroxes, I don't find its passive valuable. Ardent is just a too good all-around item for me, gives everything I need, and I love the passive. I don't know the meaning of "too much movement speed"; the more the better. Also, mobis deactivate in fights so other movement speed enhancing items/abilities become more valuable. I'm pretty sue that is the reason some Janna runs boots of swiftness because they can remain fast in teamfights as well.
And don't forget Ardent's passive which is great to snowball leads and becomes all the better with time passing.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote:
You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
Yes, because forcing unfavorable trades, denying enemy pokes while strengthening yours is just too mainstream. You have to start with knife and do stuff!
Nope, and not sure how it is logical. If you want to feel like you are playing Nami/Lulu/Sona-light then by all means, buy knife, that's one way to have presence in the lane, but coin is just as great as well, if not better. Which one is better is kinda up to who are you with and against, but coin is definetly the safest one and the hardest to do fuckups with. With the added movement speed, it actually gained some laning power as well.
Saying not starting with knife is dumb is just as ridiculously dumb as saying not starting with coin is dumb. I mean, we are back to the level where you imply Janna can't do stuff in lane without knife. Right. Now all we need is the return of that guy who explained how Janna is shit all around and her Q is useless and needs an ap ratio increase.
On September 05 2014 02:18 nafta wrote:
Spellthief like 99% of support players.
I love how this post is 100% inaccurate, haha. But all right, link me the knife challanger Jannas, I link you the coin challanger ones and abracadabra, we can arrive back to ground zero. Hell, there are a third type of Jannas who goes knife but upgrades it to frostqueen, and the 4th type are the ones who switch it up.
But yes, 99%. I appreciate your sense of humor.
On September 05 2014 02:40 RouaF wrote:
I really prefer coin on nami and janna though... but I guess it is personal preference.
Exactly. After I checked challanger Jannas I thoguht to myself "wow, so many item paths, interesting! I guess she's the only one high elo people use both coin and knife!" then the first thing I saw in some challanger stream is a coin Nami. Interesting!
I like to keeeel people botlane with Nami so knife is essential for me there.
On September 05 2014 04:36 loSleb wrote:
Thought so, it's also what I did anyway. But I also went Morello and Deathcap into DFG after that.
Don't worry, 99% of Jannas go the same way. knife-morello-dc-dfg, basic stuff. Try intro bots with Janna, the announcer doesn't let you buy coin. If you keep clicking on it she calls you dumb and kicks you. Kinda harsh!
On a more seriouse note, you describe a pure ap janna playstyle and I can't even say "the", because as I've seen Zhonya is more common to pure aps. Going utility very rarely involves those items. It's a different playstyle where those items are obsolete compared to their utility counterparts.
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Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin.Also it gives ms after you complete it.That is much later than I am talking about.
I just don't understand how do you even lane.Do you just stand behind your ad 24/7 and shield?Tell me sometime when you play so I can spectate and see because I have never seen a game where knife is not a better start than coin.
You can even start relic shield which is stronger in lane.Even for said playstyle it would be superior to coin.
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All right everyone, hear me out now!
On September 05 2014 02:18 nafta wrote:
Spellthief like 99% of support players.
I don't have a personal grudge with you.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote:
You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
And I know I'm investing way too much just to clear up this mess I could walk away from freely.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote:
You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
But I'm way too passionate about Janna and I like to help others. So, without further ado...
NORTH AMERICA - Diamond 1 Jannas who do not start with knife:
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Treeee : knife and coin seems balanced with the occasional ruby crystal start, completely neglecting the gold items
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Janna Mechanics : no gold items at all; next level Janna
CHALLENGER EDITION: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Cypress : Only looking at her items I can guarantee you that if you want to see my playstyle with Janna in a better edition, just watch this guy (who is - to my knowledge - actually a girl). This seems like a bold statement, not seeing her play Janna ever, but items tell everything. She plays the slave-game; a playstyle which gave me enough experience and confidence to try to correct Goumindong's statement about Janna's late game and shield power. If someone were to argue whether you should go for Zhonya's or Rylai or DFG or whatever on ap Janna, I would be waaaaaaaaay less sure about myself, and I probably avoid the topic altogether, because I know my suggestions would be only based on a theoretical level, which is so much inferior to when you actually play it.
tl;dr: coin über alles, according to this challanger player
EUROPE WEST - Diamond 1 Jannas who do not start with knife:
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Lex Silentae : there are some knife starts to be fair
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=IfIdieItsLag: COINS EVERYWHERE (check deeper for shorter games where it's obvious he did not sell knifes for talis). I hate Jannas with ionian boots being their standard boots, but there you go, another type of Janna. You see, even if we start with the same gold item, we can play much differently.
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Kryton13 coin coin coin all over again. It's hard to concentrate on the coins though with those IBGs, haha.
CHALLENGER EDITION: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=SirNukesAlot Talisman rushes, love it.
EUROPE NORDIC AND EAST (aka best server, no questions asked) - Diamon... ah, you know it!
http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Sumsum Talisman rushes into Ardent. Classic Janna. For those already getting the idea that knife is in fact, not superior, check out her boots. Mercury or Ninjas. So underrated, howewer they are great buys especially if you are rushing Tali into Ardent. Won't encourage anyone to do it, I'm a mobi-guy myself, but it's good to keep your minds expanded; I get them as well occasionally.
http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Thamyon coin coin ... of course, but also a Janna who seems to like Twin Shadows and has an obsession with Zeke's as well. I love Zeke's, but hate to build it when I'm behind.
http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Support Bunny coin coin coin
CHALLENGER EDITION: http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=SzörösFarkúMágus ah, a hungarian fellow! He seems to be the few Jannas who like the tanky route. Nevertheless, he's a coin guy.
KOREAN OVERLORDS
http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=울산 김잔나 I hope he was trolling with that sunfire :D
http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=이른아침샛별 just when you thought we are out of coins... MORE COINS
CHALLENGER EDITION (kinda): http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=쿤냐앙 well, he's at 98 LP, not sure if I can check whether he was challenger at one point or not (prolly yes), but a challenger contender nonetheless. Good luck dude! Also, nice coins you have there.
So, what is my point here? That Coin >>>>>>>>> Knife on Janna? No, not at all. I personally detest coin on Janna, but can't argue that it has its' uses, especially if it fits your playstyle more. I could list just as many d1/challenger Jannas who actually prefer knife. My point is that you, nafta, should not make such confident statements in a thread where lower elo players-, or players who'd just like to pick up Janna now are searching for answers. You use damn obnoxious statements, like "99%"; "dumb" or my newfound best "You can even start relic shield which is stronger in lane.Even for said playstyle it would be superior to coin." ---> You do not only say that targon Janna > coin Janna (which itself would worth a report, because it's really not the thread to troll about these things, some players do not know better), but you are actually telling me it would fit my playstyle better as well. I'm really curious now at what level do you main Janna to make such statements. You are either trolling way too hard or just not experienced enough. I mean, your targon Janna sentence folowed up one where you literally said "Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin" - Thresh, Ali, Leona...? Also, you only need to spend 500 gold on coin to gain ms from it.
On September 05 2014 08:57 nafta wrote:
I just don't understand how do you even lane.Do you just stand behind your ad 24/7 and shield?Tell me sometime when you play so I can spectate and see because I have never seen a game where knife is not a better start than coin.
It is really up to the champions and their players at bot. I'm at my best when our opponents try to brute force us, but yes, there are lanes where you just shield your adc and he slowly but surely chips them away, but even these lanes can differ. If your opponents are afraid to do anything, then you just spam shield when you see a good opportunity for your adc to poke/go in, while in trade heavy lanes you have to be perfect on your timing.
As for standing behind your adc as support: no, you never do that unless you are Thresh or Blitz, but especially not if you are Janna. You have to be close to your adc for reactive tornadoes or monsoons, and if you have all your potions then you have to go in and do stupid trades anyway by yourself if your adc is weakened.
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On September 05 2014 08:57 nafta wrote:
Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin.Also it gives ms after you complete it.That is much later than I am talking about.
No, its not. Knife gives you 30 damage/wave if you can get the procs off. coin gives you 30 Hp/wave if you can stand near creeps.
in general laning coin will beat knife just because 30 damage < 30 health due to resistances even with the 5 AP advantage.
The only reason to go knife into coin is if you beileve that you can
A: All in better and so stack the 30 damage up front for value
B: get enough gold from knife that selling it doesn't put you back relative to coin (this is surprisingly hard)
I find that I am more successful on most champions (even champions like, Morg) with coin starts nowadays. The 10 move speed on the upgrade is really nice and the gold and sustain are consistent and powerful.
Part of this is because Nomad's Medallion has a lot more trading power than Frostfang (I.E. the first upgrade paths). Frostfang is 10 AP and 45 damage/wave. Nomads is 5 HP/5 and 60 HP/Wave. The 5 HP/5 adds another 30 HP a wave. Which means that the enemy frost fang user has to make up 45 damage per wave with their trades (before considering resistances!). 45 damage is a lot more poke damage than 10 AP provides so its pretty clear that in raw trades here Coin/Medallion is superior. Though again, Frost fang is better in initial all-ins the extra sustain from Medallion actually makes it better than Frostfang if you have to poke before doing your all in (because the sustain will negate the HP differential after a single wave).
If you think that knife is strictly better than laning you simply must not have done the math on it. If you're ever sitting in lane with 3 charges of Frostfang or Knife which you cannot use for some reason (enemy isn't there, you can't get close enough to safely use it) then coin is almost strictly better. Coin is amazing for lane, its especially amazing on champions without innate sustain which have good disengage to make use of it. All of which describes Janna very well.
On September 05 2014 08:19 Volband wrote:
I only buy Morello if they have swain or mundo, but that doesn't necessary mean I always buy it when they are against me. I have a 100% loss rate vs Swains anyway, so fuck them. For me, Morello gives no utility, and morello+talisman+mastery is already 35% cdr, so unless I'm going full ap after that (in which case I'd run 5% cdr runes to round it up, or take the offensive cdr mastery as well), it's overkill. Everything I'd buy (Ardent, Mikael, Zeke, Frozen Heart, Locket) would just make me cross the 40%cdr threshold all the faster. Yes, eventually I'll get into overkill cdr territory, but I see no use in early max cdr. I value my items effects higher; also, stuff like FH and Locket helps me to stay alive to utilize that 20-30% cdr, unlike a fast Morello.
That makes sense. I usually avoid other CDR items once I hit 40%. (and i run 9/0/21 so i don't have to run CDR in masteries I can run more efficient defensive runes). But if i was going to go into Zekes, FH, Locket anyway i would definitely skip morello.
My general item path is Talisman -> Mikael/Censor depending on enemy team -> Finish 10% CDR item depending on enemy team. If I need picks then its Ghosts. If i need AoE tank then its Locket. If its armor defensive then i bite the bullet and get FH. But i wouldn't stack over 40% I would just go right into raw AP/tank after that.
The reason Morello looks good on that is if you're in a game where you don't really need locket/mikaels/ghosts then what options do you have? You can go Censor and then another 10% AP item, or you can go morello and right into the non-CDR items you would get earlier. The point wasn't to abuse the passive on Morello, but to abuse the ease at which it gets you to 40% CDR and its strong build path in games where you don't need the utility of the other CDR options. The extra AP on it is just icing.
It's hard to concentrate on the coins though with those IBGs, haha.
Now i feel dumb for not thinking of IBG as the third 10% CDR item to buy if i am looking for armor. Its got a slow, its got AP, its got armor, its got mana and CDR. Its perfect
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So I'm not going to post a wall of text because I'm quite sure this thread has had enough in the last 2 pages :D
Worlds spoiler :
+ Show Spoiler +Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.pngcontext : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
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C9 busted out a W max Janna vs SSB's Braum. Doublelift didn't understand it
+ Show Spoiler +Didn't win though 
(how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
You make catches and exploit twitches high burst and surprise with the shield. You're going to trade poorly in lane early but you're mainly just waiting until 6 to wreck where, even if you're behind, the raw stats from twitches ult, Q and Janna shield will get you kills.
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On September 24 2014 04:48 RouaF wrote:So I'm not going to post a wall of text because I'm quite sure this thread has had enough in the last 2 pages :D Worlds spoiler : + Show Spoiler +Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.pngcontext : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
The mreg is pretty standart.You get so much ms anyway.However not running mr vs kog/nami is either expecting to 2v1 or plain disrespect lol.The tw/janna lane pretty much can't even farm if the kog/nami play correctly.
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On October 04 2014 22:19 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 04:48 RouaF wrote:So I'm not going to post a wall of text because I'm quite sure this thread has had enough in the last 2 pages :D Worlds spoiler : + Show Spoiler +Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.pngcontext : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?) The mreg is pretty standart.You get so much ms anyway.However not running mr vs kog/nami is either expecting to 2v1 or plain disrespect lol.The tw/janna lane pretty much can't even farm if the kog/nami play correctly.
The same applies to the 9 health/lvl yellows.
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On October 04 2014 17:21 Goumindong wrote:C9 busted out a W max Janna vs SSB's Braum. Doublelift didn't understand it + Show Spoiler +Didn't win though You make catches and exploit twitches high burst and surprise with the shield. You're going to trade poorly in lane early but you're mainly just waiting until 6 to wreck where, even if you're behind, the raw stats from twitches ult, Q and Janna shield will get you kills.
Well yeah it doesn't make sense to max W on Janna when you have a level 6 graves burst and an AD assassin jungler (meteos built full glass cannon that game).
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EPT
