Runes: ArmourPen Reds, Manaregen/lvl Yellows, Manaregen/lvl Blues, HP Quints
Items:
Support bitch Doran's Ring x 2-3, Boots 1-> Boots of Mobility/Ionian Boots of Lucidity, Wardsx9999, Aegis, Kindlegem->Soul Shroud, Banshee's (optional), Stark's (optional), Frozen Heart (optional)
Solo mid/top ''I'm ownin' you with Janna''
Doran's Ring x1, Boots 1-> Tabi/Merc Treads, Guinsoo's Rageblade, Stark's, Aegis of the Legion, Elixirs when you can. (Red/Green/Blue in that order of priority)
*I recommend the first build. Second build is almost troll, but CAN work well if you're farming exceptionally well, have a solo lane, and are (is?) dominating early-game.
Skill order: EQEWEREWEW.... (pretty non-negotiable, you almost always want Shield maxed first. You might consider W or Q first for Level 1 teamfight, but that's about it).
Playstyle (for sidelane): Abuse your range / higher damage to zone the crap out of your enemies, if possible. But don't get too into it if your lane partner is totally crap at last-hitting or can't back you up when the enemies get pissed at you. Play safe, farm/zone/harass from Level 1-3, Level 4 is when you can potentially get a kill with W+Q. Don't be shy to B, since you come back significantly stronger with minimal amount of gold spent, (example, I B when I'm Level 4/5 with ~800 gold, and come back with Boots 1, 1 more Doran's Ring, and a ward for Dragon). Getting that ward ASAP (esp. before their jungler ganks) is pretty important.
Mid-game (Level 9 - 14 or so): Walk around with your carry, but be careful not to stick too near him/her. You want to be in range to support him/her in whatever he/she's doing, be it pushing/farming/Lizard, but you don't want to jack his/her EXP, since you pretty much hit your ''sweet spot'' at Level 9 with max Shield. If you still haven't gotten your Aegis, you might want to farm a little and try to get it up.
Ulti usage: Loco's definitely laughing if he ever sees this section. I suck absolute balls at using Monsoon. I think a key piece of advice is this: Don't be too eager to use it. Another piece of advice is to stand close to your ranged carry (like, almost beside) during a teamfight. That way when you press R you're pushing unfriendlies as far away from your ranged carry as possible.
Conclusion: GLHF peepz. Janna is OP.
Short note about her in current patch: Her E got nerfed from 10s duration -> 5s. Essentially this increases the value of CDR on Janna since it now makes her shield uptime longer. Ionian Boots were perfect addition for her (: New Soul Shroud item requirements were also good since she could get easy CDR (10% for 850!) and still have the potential to build into Soul Shroud later on.
No Clairvoyance? Seems like if anyone should carry it, it should be Janna.
Support bitch Doran's Ring x 2-3, Boots 1-> Boots of Mobility, Wardsx9999, Aegis, Chainmail/Negatron -> whatever
I see Zirun use something more like: Doran's Ring x2, Boots 1->Treads, Wards x9999, Doran's Ring x2, Banshee's Veil
Then again, Janna is item-independent enough that it really doesn't matter how you build her.
One thing to note: if you are in a duo lane with someone who needs farm more than you (basically everybody), let them take creep kills unless they can't reach them, or they suck ass at last hitting (I know you sort of say this in the OP, but it's kind of not that clear, lol).
On November 05 2010 14:25 nyxnyxnyx wrote: I like BoM for flying. I only ever get Mercury if there's really a LOT of undodge-able CC.
I've gotten BoM all the time's I've played her, but at the same time I've never seen Zirun get anything other than treads (though half the time he doesn't even finish his boots and just gets more Doran's Rings).
I have also experienced DPS Janna a couple times on both sides of the field and she has always done well. This coming from lvl 30 no ranked. On topic: Just played this build and did well. My earlier experiments with mobafire/leaguecraft builds led me to do RoA/Nashors crap builds. Love TL. Basically taught me to not trust any other group/site with LoL info.
DPS Janna is a troll build. Essentially Janna needs no items, so whatever farm you get can be spent on anything and you can be successful. This is the reason why when Utah posts Janna game SS, he always has like 4 CS in a 50 minutes game or some ridiculous crap like that, because he just ignores creep to let people who need items to get the farm, lol.
And tower pushing. It actually makes more sense than I thought at first. I think Utah runs something defensive on his reds, but 15 Armor Pen sounds really strong now that I think about it.
On November 06 2010 05:11 Brees wrote: cleanse is necessary on janna imo, being CC locked can prevent you from using monsoon
This x 1000. Monsoon is the strongest ability in the game, but requires precise timing. The last thing you can afford when playing Janna is being disabled when you need to ult.
On November 06 2010 05:11 Brees wrote: cleanse is necessary on janna imo, being CC locked can prevent you from using monsoon
This x 1000. Monsoon is the strongest ability in the game, but requires precise timing. The last thing you can afford when playing Janna is being disabled when you need to ult.
Which is also the reason why some people get Mercs on her. Obvious when you don't run Cleanse, and imo a decent pair of boots even with Cleanse.
On November 06 2010 05:09 Mogwai wrote: And tower pushing. It actually makes more sense than I thought at first. I think Utah runs something defensive on his reds, but 15 Armor Pen sounds really strong now that I think about it.
I tried running the troll set but it doesn't work as well on SR as it does TT because her lane control just isn't very strong due to EotS nerf. In a ideal world I'd run the Soraka page (Flat AP Quints + AP/level everything else).
On November 06 2010 05:09 Mogwai wrote: [Why use APen runes?] And tower pushing. It actually makes more sense than I thought at first. I think Utah runs something defensive on his reds, but 15 Armor Pen sounds really strong now that I think about it.
On November 06 2010 05:09 Mogwai wrote: [Why use APen runes?] And tower pushing. It actually makes more sense than I thought at first. I think Utah runs something defensive on his reds, but 15 Armor Pen sounds really strong now that I think about it.
Doran's ring -> boots 1 + another ring if laning phase is slow -> Swiftness boots
AND THEN
Mejais + Leviathans -> GG WIN GAME
............................
My other build:
mana manip -> catalyst -> Soul shroud -> RoA -> Doesn't matter, gg win game. Requires health quints if they have garen. Be a friggin' psychic when picking rune page.
On November 06 2010 23:04 ghen wrote: My other build:
mana manip -> catalyst -> Soul shroud -> RoA -> Doesn't matter, gg win game. Requires health quints if they have garen. Be a friggin' psychic when picking rune page.
On November 06 2010 23:04 ghen wrote: My other build:
mana manip -> catalyst -> Soul shroud -> RoA -> Doesn't matter, gg win game. Requires health quints if they have garen. Be a friggin' psychic when picking rune page.
No boots, and planning around 5k worth of items?
Boots are assumed and the first two items build into the second two items.
On November 06 2010 23:04 ghen wrote: My other build:
mana manip -> catalyst -> Soul shroud -> RoA -> Doesn't matter, gg win game. Requires health quints if they have garen. Be a friggin' psychic when picking rune page.
No boots, and planning around 5k worth of items?
Boots are assumed and the first two items build into the second two items.
On November 06 2010 23:04 ghen wrote: My other build:
mana manip -> catalyst -> Soul shroud -> RoA -> Doesn't matter, gg win game. Requires health quints if they have garen. Be a friggin' psychic when picking rune page.
No boots, and planning around 5k worth of items?
Boots are assumed and the first two items build into the second two items.
Soul Shroud + Rod of Ages is still 5k+ gold.
Meh, if the game ends before I build RoA I'm not hurting. I like soul shroud better on her.
On November 06 2010 05:09 Mogwai wrote: [Why use APen runes?] And tower pushing. It actually makes more sense than I thought at first. I think Utah runs something defensive on his reds, but 15 Armor Pen sounds really strong now that I think about it.
Ok, so after going over 75% with Janna in ranked games, all except 1 game being solo ranked, I have to say that Janna is OP. Janna is OP and Janna wins ranked games. How to rape face with Janna:
Masteries, 9/0/21
Runes: same as the ones on the first page
Spells: Flash Exhaust
Skill build:E,Q,E,W,E,R and then R>E>Q>W
Playstyle:Lane with someone that can solo well, or someone that can deal crazy ad damage early on in the game and is kinda tanky. In lane, try to only get 3-5 creep kills max. Give the rest to your partner. Get to lvl 4 or get enough money for boots and at least 2 wards, and then go back to base. After that use one ward on dragon, and then start roaming around leaving our bot solo to give them solo exp + gold. If your bot has a really hard lane, then stay with them and babysit them, while looking for opportunities to roam. Use your other ward on an enemy buff camp depending on their jungle route. If the enemy jungler went standard jungle route dictated by their cs, then by the time you go back and buy your boot/wards, their blue will be back up or up soon so ward blue. While roaming, follow around your jungler to help them gank or roam enemy jungle because you have A knockup, Exhaust, a slow, and a shield that gives bonus damage and blocks damage. Every time you go back after your first buy, buy wards. Prioritize 3 wards over anything. After having 3 wards, then buy anything you need to buy. Proceed to ward important ward spots/locations and enemy buffs. If you are warding enemy buff spots, be really aware of the map and jungle timings so that you don't get ganked. There's a few key things that happen when you ward enemy jungle. #1, you have information on enemy buffs at all times. Use this to rally your team and your jungle to go towards their buff when it's up or when the enemy jungler is doing it. Make sure that at all times, that you have at least an equal number of champions raiding their jungle, as they have that can back up the fight. If you ward key locations on the river, you have knowledge of enemy champion locations at all times and their movements. This combined with map awareness leads to engagements favoring your team at all times, so use this to your advantage.
As Janna, you don't need gold after level 6, and Janna scales to her max potential at level 9, but you can take your time getting to level 9. So try not to take any gold or experience at all. If there is a huge creep wave pushing, don't bother to push it back. Ping it and let another person push it back. If some1 is jungling or creeping near you, just use shield on them and back off from exp range. Use your E on your ranged carry. If the ranged carry is not near you, then use it on the champion that can deal the highest amount of damage/needs protection. Use Q to knock up people that are coming towards your carry or to help some1 that's fighting. Use W to stop any melee champion coming towards your carry or you. Use R to knock back people trying to kill your carry. It's better if you can get a lot of them as they come to bunch up. In fights, always position yourself besides or slightly behind your carry. You really don't want to get focused because you have 0 survivability, but if you get targeted, use flash to get away and then your spells. Use your exhaust to either exhaust a person dealing a lot of physical damage, or any1 trying to auto attack your carry. As you play Janna, you realize that your carry can not die, and that they will have scores of 20-0. You don't need any buffs as Janna, so don't take any. Try not to ks anybody that has a buff, your teammates benefit more from buffs.
Item Build: Dorans Ring, Boots, Always have 3 wards, catalyst, merc treads, banshees, oracles, HOG, the item that gives 15% cd- to your team.
Alternate Item Build: Dorans Ring, Boots, Always have 3 wards, Dorans Ring x2, Merc Treads, Dorans Ring x1, oracles, banshees, item that gives you 15% cd- to your team.
On February 16 2011 22:38 spinesheath wrote: 100% certain this is the wrong way to play her: You don't have any wards in your inventory. 1 cs per minute though, the ideal amount.
wtf? no, that's way too much. It's pretty hard to accidentally last hit a creep/minute with your tornado, which to me shows that he actually last hit minions... for shame.
On February 17 2011 03:26 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I like CV over Exhaust. It sets up for ganks so much better.
CV= map awarness: tracing enemy junglers (or buffs time), preventing enemy ganks, knowing enemy starting items, harassing enemy who is in bush during lane phase, less facechecks.
CV is a lifesaver when the opposing team has oracles and has map control that they're exerting by baiting/doing baron. In the standard team comp at high elo play, EVERY support runs CV.
I usually end up with 0.5cs/minute, that allows me to keep up with ward buying combined with my assist gold, while still allowing enough to build a bit of extra survivability or cdr or whatnot.
imo, saying you should get 'x cs per min' on a support champ is dumb, those standards are meant for carries. its better to just make a blanket statement 'i will get the cs that my lane partner cant get', so that the gold isnt wasted, saying things like 'oh this janna has too much cs', or 'this janna doesnt have x cs per min' seems silly to me
edit: also, i run cv AND exhaust on my janna ;]]]]
On February 17 2011 04:10 barbsq wrote: imo, saying you should get 'x cs per min' on a support champ is dumb, those standards are meant for carries. its better to just make a blanket statement 'i will get the cs that my lane partner cant get', so that the gold isnt wasted, saying things like 'oh this janna has too much cs', or 'this janna doesnt have x cs per min' seems silly to me
Pretty sure they're joking.
On February 17 2011 04:10 barbsq wrote: edit: also, i run cv AND exhaust on my janna ;]]]]
IMO you'd have to be really freaking good at not getting caught in initiations to afford not running Flash or Cleanse.
lol I wasn't serious about this 1 cs per minute being ideal, but fact is that in my best Janna games (I had quite a few of those), I tend to have 1 cs per minute.
Obviously you farm when your ally is leaving the lane to shop (or when he's dead, but then you should be ashamed as Janna), or when you have to defend a lane for a while, or when you have to draw minion aggro/reduce minion damage on an ally. Sure you could skillfully NOT lasthit but that's kinda stupid.
CV = no brush juking for ya. U ded.
Against most team compositions you NEED Cleanse to do your job. It's not a huge problem if you die as long as it is for a greater cause, but it's pretty damn important that you get your spells off at the right timings. Any random AoE Silence can fuck you over big time.
Since I reached 1800 elo on US thanks to playing Janna, I figured I'd share my wisdom:
Summoners Clairvoyance + Flash if you can, Clairvoyance + Cleanse if you must. You mainly have to watch out for long duration silences. But not just any silences, only those that actually threaten you.
Masteries 0/9/21 defense: 3 armor, 3 mres, 3 SoS utility: 3 good hands, 1 perseverance, 4 experience, 1 greed, 3 meditation, 3 quickness, 1 flash mastery, 3 CDR, 1 CV mastery, 1 summoner spell mastery Nothing out of the ordinary here.
Runes marks: magic penetration seals: flat armor glyphs: magic resist per level quints: 1 flat HP, 2 flat AP I really only run those quints because I don't have more HP quints or another AP quint. You should be fine with various combinations of flat HP, flat HP5, flat AP, Movespeed.
Skills W>E>Q>R 1 rank in Q somewhere from 1 to 4 1 rank in R at 6 Q is used for the knockup, not the damage. W is your bread and butter. E is nice and all, but W is more important. R is for the knockback, leveling it higher just makes it cost more mana.
Items Cookie cutter: Boots1 + 3 HP pots Doran's Ring + Philosopher's Stone CDR Boots Aegis of the Legion + Kindlegem Stark's Fervor or Soul Shroud
In real games, have to be very flexible though. Openings I would consider: Boots1 + 3 HP pots Boots1 + Ward + HP pot Boots1 + Pink Ward (against Eve/Twitch if you feel like it) Regrowth Pendant + HP pot Doran's Ring Even some Cloth Armor or Fairy Charm openings might make sense here and there. I don't use those, but who knows...
Your next items should usually Doran's Rings and Philosopher's Stones, adding up to a total of 2. Sometimes 1 total is enough, sometimes you want 3 Doran's Rings. I personally don't like getting more than 1 Philo, I like the HP on Doran's Ring and the AP is quite good early on. Grab your CDR boots somewhere at this point. No other boots. After that it's a Ruby Crystal which conveniently builds into both Kindlegem and Aegis. Starks is REALLY good these days if you have someone with IE. Otherwise a Soul Shroud might be the better choice. If the game demands it, build defense. AP/AD is usually is not worth getting.
Always have a pink and a couple of green wards. Less than 1 ward per 2 game minutes is not allowed.
Playstyle Duo bottom and/or roam as the game demands. In champ select, make sure you don't have a second roamer on your team. While Janna can easily lane 1v2 against many duos, it will most likely lose you the game. For lvl 1 TEAMfights, you want to start with Q. For everything else, W. I usually stick around our jungler at the start, leash and then try to gank mid. When the enemy goes in to lasthit a ranged minion, W him and chase with your ally. 4 seconds of slow allows for a lot of hits. When you are laning, harrass with W, use E and Q sparingly. Let your ally take the farm, but if you need to back and are short of 1 or 2 minions for some item, go ahead and take them. Also take lasthits your ally can't or won't get for some reason. When you are roaming, try to line up your ganks with your jungler. Use your sick movespeed and the even sicker slow from W, hit with Q once you are closer to the enemy. Trace the enemy jungler/roamer with CV if you can. Use CV to cover an overextended ally, especially top lane or people in the enemy jungle. If there is a fight somewhere on the map, use CV to provide line of sight into brushes (this is HUGE). E can be used on people who autoattack a lot (bonus points if they have high attack speed or armor penetration), or for the shield. Just spamming it on your ranged DPS isn't optimal, make sure you shield him when he has a chance to actually autoattack for a couple of seconds (instead of run) if you use it for the damage. R is mostly about the knockback. With the slow on it gone, you usually can't afford to channel it, so leveling it past rank 1 only increases the mana cost. I use it to blow stuff like tanky DPS away, but sometimes I also stop 2-3 enemies from entering the fight. You can mess your R up BIG time, and I often R just a second too late, failing to save an ally. Sometimes you wanna sacrifice an ally (or yourself) and not use R because it would save 2 enemies. You can go all sorts of wrong here... In teamfights, generally stay near your squishy allies and keep enemies off them with Q W and R. Cover empty lanes to catch up in farm and levels.
WARDS, goddamnit. WARDS. I won't include a warding guide here, but it's really important for Janna. Keep control over Dragon/Baron with pink wards. Keep control over your jungle by warding the river or your jungle if you are behind. Extend control into the enemy jungle once you take their towers.
On February 17 2011 06:51 Slayer91 wrote: As much as riot is trying to make jungling less mandatory it seems the game is shifting towards 3 solo lanes with a support/roamer and a jungler, lol.
That is the NA meta, but I think going support carry bot in the EU style is a bit stronger, and will gain popularity.
On February 17 2011 06:51 Slayer91 wrote: As much as riot is trying to make jungling less mandatory it seems the game is shifting towards 3 solo lanes with a support/roamer and a jungler, lol.
That is the NA meta, but I think going support carry bot in the EU style is a bit stronger, and will gain popularity.
It sucks. Trust me, I have done both. Strong ganker mid + jungler + roamer + solid tank bottom CRUSHES the EU bottom lane. The ranged AD will be too far behind in levels to survive. The only reason it works on EU is because the enemy team does the same crap.
Yeah the reason CLG lost some games vs EU teams was not because of the metagame, they actually probably had an advantage there, just irelia OP.
The only problem is there isn't that many tanks that are good at 1v2ing, but then having the threat of a roamer helps a lot. It's almost better having the roamer roam since if it was a 2v2 lane its really easy to harass a tank/roamer. Having the tank a level up and the roamer coming from the bush makes it better.
P.S. Really I would think you should still get that extra 2 points in R. Level 3 R is 600 AoE Heal which is pretty huge.
Actually here's a rough sketch of (more or less) popular ward spots:
You usually want to create a line of vision across the map, using towers, minions and wards, and shove that line as far into the enemy territory as you safely can.
On April 28 2011 19:23 Slayer91 wrote: P.S. Really I would think you should still get that extra 2 points in R. Level 3 R is 600 AoE Heal which is pretty huge.
You will literally never be able to channel your R in fights. Instead you can max E earlier for more damage and a stronger shield, and you can grab the lower cooldown on Q. The only time you want a maxed R is when you win a fight rather decisively without using your ulti and then healing up while pushing. I'm willing to trade a little power in such a case where I most likely am far ahead anyways, and instead increase my teamfight strength to actually GET ahead.
The increased mana cost isn't a non-issue either: My MP5 setup is fairly tight.
What are people buying on Janna nowadays? I got boots + 2 philo stones to open (and lots of wards + pots), but I didn't really know what sort of eventual "big" items I should be aiming for.
Aegis + soul shroud usually. Can also get things like banshee's later for added tankiness if the game goes on that long, starks for the aura, etcetc. Whatever the game needs, really.
Cookie cutter: Boots1 + 3 HP pots Doran's Ring + Philosopher's Stone CDR Boots Aegis of the Legion + Kindlegem Stark's Fervor or Soul Shroud
Still holds true. That guide is only a few weeks old after all. Generally, after Kindlegem (and Aegis if nobody else gets it), you're free to build whatever you think is best in the current game.
Don't underestimate Stark's, it's really good. Soul Shroud only if your team actually makes good use of the aura, it's pretty expensive for just yourself. Wit's End can be an option against enemies like Rammus or Alistar. Shurelya's Reverie is great if you have long range initiations on your team so everyone can catch up. Will of the Ancient's if your carry is AP based. Randuin's Omen or Frozen Heart against melee autoattackers. Sometimes you need a Quicksilver Sash. Executioner's Calling against heavy regen/healing or to help break spell shields. Abyssal Scepter can be good. If you want an additional slow, I'd personally go Mallet over Rylais: Longer duration, W slows enough by itself and Q only gets the 15% on a long cooldown.
it really needed Dreamhack for me to understand how fucking great u can use janna. I kinda felt solid before that, but knowing when to use flash ult/w is fucking huge, never thought about that before.
Also for openings, I feel that faerie charm + 3 wards + pots is slightly superior to boots openings if you dont want to roam from lvl 2-3 on. The extra wards make you much more versatile at low levels than boots would.
(Afraid of counterjungling? Np, u can cover entrances. Want early map coverage to shut down strong gankers? Np, u has enough wards for that.) ... Against strong, ganky junglers I'd really recommend the wards opening, against farming ones you can roll with boots.
Loco once posted that botlane is about which side can free up their support to roam first and I'd say that's jannas biggest strength. The second your carry gets his first kill / forces the other carry to go b you can roll the map with oracle for at least one round to clear all the ward crap. If you can do that, it's huge imo. However, don't risk your carry getting dived/instagibbed for it.
Why do you get the Dring?
I still feel that 2-3 gold items > dring if you can afford them. Oracle somewhere after 1-2 gold items.
Obviously you should aim for wota/starks depending on your teamcomp, both add so much to your team.
Also, where SO MANY SUPPORTS FUCK UP: Your cv is the best protection against any sort of strong counterjungling. Know common routes for junglers like Nunu/Shaco especially. Know their alternatives. Know how they respond when they get CV'd in the middle of an act. The goal of strong CVs is exactly one thing: Use your knowledge to be 100% certain that the enemy jungle HAS to be at one out of two spots. CV one of them. Call out where he has to be if he's not there. Once you get used to it, it get's really easy.
You should aim to CV the enemy jungle precisly for the first 2 spawns of his blue. Also make sure to make your team aware of fuckups in the enemy junglers pattern. e.g. him ganking on the other side of the map 10s before his blue spawns while your jungler is close to it.
In case you feel something is cheesy, call it out right now and make your team aware. Especially against early gankers them NOT having cleared a camp they should have done by now means they're invading your jungle, ganking very early or they plain suck. Never assume the last.
Example #1: You have Amu vs Nunu.
You know: -Nunu started boots/ward -He went big wolf -> blue. -Since ur pro you warded your wraiths to prevent oddoneguide style.
-> CV his red/wraiths ---> If he's not there, he's at your golems/red OR ganking at lvl 2. -> CV your golems/path towards lane ---> If he's not there he's doing his jungle OR ganking at lvl 2.
Example #2: You have Rammus vs Shaco
You know: Shaco started red. You have to check: Did he do his small golems (farming route) or did he ignore golems and start red (usually early ganky route)
Each route requires slightly different CVs and has slightly different timings. The first aims to gank a lane after blue, the second aims to gank your jungler at his wraiths. Being accurate for those things is a huge part of playing a solid support.
On June 21 2011 16:39 r.Evo wrote: Why do you get the Dring?
I still feel that 2-3 gold items > dring if you can afford them. Oracle somewhere after 1-2 gold items.
Personally I can't justify more than 1 gold/10 item per game on Janna.
Doran's Rings give you about 860 gold worth of stats for 475 gold. This means that it takes a Heart of Gold something around 10 minutes to match the cost-effectiveness of a Doran's Ring (Philo Stone obviously becomes cost-effective faster, but the stats of multiple Philos are pretty unnecessary for Janna, especially since she doesn't have an enormous mana demand like Sona's that needs multiple Philos to cover).
With that long of time to break even, and with other priority buys such as wards/oracles/aura items, it is unlikely that your latter few gold/10 items will break even in good time. Suppose you have a 35 minute game (about average game length). With normal gold income of ~100 gold per minute, you can get your first g/10 item before 10 minutes (interspersed with wards and getting boots), and, with some supplemental gold from assists/dragon, probably a 2nd by 15. The first one will generate gold for a long enough time to be cost-effective for certain. The second one, however, spends 10 minutes catching up to DRing cost-effectiveness, and spends the next 10 generating gold, at which point, the game is about ended. If you were delayed (i.e. no kills/assists in lane, had to spend money on early oracles for someone like Eve/Shaco, etc.), then the gold item spends less time generating gold than it does just trying to catch up to DRings.
On June 21 2011 16:39 r.Evo wrote: Why do you get the Dring?
I still feel that 2-3 gold items > dring if you can afford them. Oracle somewhere after 1-2 gold items.
Personally I can't justify more than 1 gold/10 item per game on Janna.
Doran's Rings give you about 860 gold worth of stats for 475 gold. This means that it takes a Heart of Gold something around 10 minutes to match the cost-effectiveness of a Doran's Ring (Philo Stone obviously becomes cost-effective faster, but the stats of multiple Philos are pretty unnecessary for Janna, especially since she doesn't have an enormous mana demand like Sona's that needs multiple Philos to cover).
With that long of time to break even, and with other priority buys such as wards/oracles/aura items, it is unlikely that your latter few gold/10 items will break even in good time. Suppose you have a 35 minute game (about average game length). With normal gold income of ~100 gold per minute, you can get your first g/10 item before 10 minutes (interspersed with wards and getting boots), and, with some supplemental gold from assists/dragon, probably a 2nd by 15. The first one will generate gold for a long enough time to be cost-effective for certain. The second one, however, spends 10 minutes catching up to DRing cost-effectiveness, and spends the next 10 generating gold, at which point, the game is about ended. If you were delayed (i.e. no kills/assists in lane, had to spend money on early oracles for someone like Eve/Shaco, etc.), then the gold item spends less time generating gold than it does just trying to catch up to DRings.
I think the HoG is almost always superior to the Dorans Ring.
Once you have the first Philostone you have all the manaregen you could ever want. 250 health from HoG over 100 health from Dring is huge. The additional AP is cute but not as huge as 150 health more.
While the HoG is not "cost-efficient" in terms of paying for itself it gives two things: Health vs burst damage and additonal gold. The ability to replenish a lost oracle/even more wards/quicker big stuff like wota/starks is huge imho. Also the more health you have, the more is your philostone worth.
Looking at the pure numbers and thinking "Dring has better numbers" isn't the right approach here I'd say. I'm not entirely sure on the 3rd gold item, but 2 is definitly the way to go.
Builds like Philo, boots/oracle -> 2x HoG -> kindlegem are sooo durable.
I should probably add that I hate getting aegis on janna (id rather see it on stuff like amu/nunu/etc.) and that I run gold / 10 quints.
HoG is bad. Really bad. And Getting more than 2 gold/10 items on a support is nonsense. You can't afford more than that. Even 2 gold/10 items stretches it.
Notice that Philo is quite the exception if you need the stats because it's base stats are worth more than 800. Other gold/10 items have negative base stat efficiency.
On June 21 2011 18:14 spinesheath wrote: HoG is bad. Really bad. And Getting more than 2 gold/10 items on a support is nonsense. You can't afford more than that. Even 2 gold/10 items stretches it.
Notice that Philo is quite the exception if you need the stats because it's base stats are worth more than 800. Other gold/10 items have negative base stat efficiency.
I know you will already hate me for pulling that card, however during Dreamhack the only support not building gold items was Doublelift. (He stacked DRings). Everyone else (and I mean everyone) built 2+ on every single support.
Mellisans (fnatic) standard was Philo -> HoG, most of the time before boots. He usually turned the Philo into Shurelyas later on and got an Aegis whenever he could.
kujaa (aAa) was the support player with the most HoGs, up to 3 after his initial philo (still on T1 boots at times)
Elementz (Sona) got 2 Philos, 1 HoG
I think disregarding Mellisans approach to Janna especially (he played her like a beast) is a bad idea.
His standard was opening faerie + wards/pots, quick Philo -> Oracle/HoG -> Boots -> T2 Boots -> Aegis/Kindlegem/Shurelyas.
I'd say two should be the standard, 3 is stretching it.
Why do you despise HoG so much? IF you can afford it while doing your oracle/ward duty (which should be in 90%+ of all games unless you explode with that oracle all the time) it's great and I'd totally neglect T2 boots for it, especially on Janna cuz of her W.
Edit: For those interested, Mellisan ran that build on pretty much every support he played, while kujaa switched it up a lot. However, especially kujaa loves HoGs, even on champs like Soraka or Sona where you might argue Kages/Philos thrown in are a lot better than stacking HoGs.
Well we should also consider that most of the games lasted 40+ minutes if the game was even somewhat close because of how good the teams were at defending. Of course more than one g/10 item would be good in that situation. If the game became one-sided then item builds would be pointless and the team that's ahead will win in a dominating fashion.
Spine's strat is focused on normal ranked games that at his elo generally last 20-25 mins so gold/10 isn't as useful. In Dreamhack the teams generally played a lot safer than would happen in ranked, and so games lasted longer as they were mainly just farmfests and trying to control buffs. Real 5 games vs solo q is a lot different for the support. You need to realize that. Rarely were there many kills at all in the dreamhack games where the support was actually involved until mid-lategame teamfights 20+ mins in. So gold/10 were helpful here because the added bonus from things like aegis/shurelya's, etc were often not needed right away by the support until teamfights much later. They could just get the gold/10 to buy wards + oracles by the time the team needed to go around as 5 and sometimes something extra like a kindlegem.
In most real games you shouldn't go above 2 gold/10 though on supports. It's just too much of an investment when you're getting no farm to begin with and you'll get your 3rd too late.
What we also saw in the DH games: Supports barely ever got any assists before the teamfights started. That led to them grabbing the 2nd gold/10 as late as 18-20 minutes into the game. If they grabbed a 3rd one, they hardly had a chance to grab another item. At this point a Kindlegem beats a HoG easily. Similar cost, similar HP, but 10% CDR which is the only stat that really improves Janna's teamfight presence.
a) You either get 0-0-5 as support and dont need gold/10 items cause you get money from assists anyway which is very common at 1600+ elo. b) Games end at 30 minutes anyway, that's why more than one gold/10 items is a waste of an investment.
Therefore one might conclude that more than one philo on ANY champ is horrible cause other champs get even more gold from farm/kills/assists.
So basicly building gold items on junglers/jarvan/irelia beyond the first one is bad?
(Yes, I'm exagerating. Just to show the result of spinning that chain of thought onto other things where it has to be valid just the same.)
... Yes, I agree, building a gold item at 0-20 or 20-0 is completely retarded. However, every other of your points doesn't seem very valid to me. Past 20-25 minutes I can agree with kindlegem > HoG, but no way it's more valuable earlier. Gold items on support (compared to no gold items on enemy support) allow you to: -> Abuse leads (cuz you can ward even more) -> Come back from behing behind (cuz you can ward and keep up oracles you otherwise wouldn't have the money for -> Getting another free ward every 2 minutes EASILY beats 10% CDR early in the game. -> You actually build up gold for "real" items (Kindlegem/Auraitems), because you don't have to spend every coin you get from assists on Wards/Oracles.
Edit: Actually the kindlegem is a great comparison cause both items give health.
What do you want more on a support? An extra ward every 2 minutes or 10% CDR? Once I feel that I can basicly piss out wards quicker than the enemy support can remove them (trollol) I'd want the CDR. Maybe it's me wasting too much money on wards, but for me I feel that amount of gold comes in after 2-3 gold items, not after 1.
I am saying that you don't get enough assists to afford more than 2 gold/10 items before 20 minutes. Other champs actually get farm and can afford their gold/10 items much earlier.
HoG is just a bad item on Janna because in 99% of the cases you don't really want to build a Randuin's and since you get that HoG so late selling it will not be efficient either. So you just get the Kindlegem instead because you want a Reverie or Soul Shroud anyways.
AP Janna seems to be picking up some popularity. I've done it a few times with success in a duo lane as "support", but I was wondering how you guys build and play her.
I tried going gold/5 into mejai and hat which worked, but probably only because the other team was bad, and also a standard caster build (ring rings sorc shoes hat) which I felt left me a bit squishy and without CDR (but also worked probably because the other team was bad).
I'm also not entirely sure about the skill order. I was going: Q,W,W,E,W,R where W>Q>E>R.
In lane the ideal situation for Janna (similar to Sona) is that you level W most (or Q in Sona's case), get a level of E to prevent creep damage on your carry, and just gun the other lane down. Most of the damage being dealt should be on Janna/Sona, letting the carry run wild and take minimal damage while last hitting and outputting maximum damage. Hence the armor runes and the 6 health potion opening. The moment you start having to level shield/heal the more inefficient and weaker Janna/Sona become in terms of laning presence - you're better off grabbing Taric/Sora as pure babysitters in that sense.
Just depends on the lane and team comp. Some lane's you should be fine to level W for aggression or getting a kill, other lanes you're kinda forced to play more passively, in which E is the best bet since you won't be doing much ganking.
For what it's worth, I start with Regrowth Pendant and a mana pot, get Philosopher's Stone (to build in to Shureliya's later) and Boots of Tenacity or w/e they're called. I can't not call them Boots of Tenacity.
That's what Shurelya's is for. I find that before that stage of the game you don't really have the mana to worry much about CDR. By the time it matters you can afford Shurelya's. Then again, I've never played a ranked game in my life and you're 1800, but it's simply what I've chosen through experience.
On August 13 2011 02:57 Cedstick wrote: That's what Shurelya's is for. I find that before that stage of the game you don't really have the mana to worry much about CDR. By the time it matters you can afford Shurelya's. Then again, I've never played a ranked game in my life and you're 1800, but it's simply what I've chosen through experience.
CDR gets better the more you have. 0-9 CDR from masteries 15 from Boots 10-15 from Kindlegem/Shurelya's. Less than 40 total.
You don't really want to chug blue Elixiers on (support) Janna, so there is no way you're gonna waste any CDR. Janna scales extremely well with CDR and she shoudn't be in the front line. If someone dives past your tank line he's gonna drop his CC on the carries near you.
Yea, I've just found that during laning phase you can't really make use of it too much since you're already using so much mana. CDR is a late-game thing for me, so with runes, Shurelya's and either Soul Shroud or Fiendish Tomb (usually Soul Shroud since I like to build defensively rather than AP and mana isn't a problem after mid-game) I've got the same amount.
Also, there are plenty of times where getting out of CC just in time has saved my ass. I know you aren't SUPPOSED to be vulnerable, but sometimes that just how it happens.
Keep in mind, I'm playing from a solo-normal perspective, so things are quite a bit different than a team entirely made-up of people with game sense and proper positioning
Well... typically Janna can't afford more than one "big" item (2000-2500 gold). Boots, Shurelya's, and one or two small items usually is a about as much as you can get by the time the game is over. Wards and Oracles will eat the rest of your money. The CDR will come in handy when you fight. That's all that matters.
I'm running general defensive runes (health/mres/armor) and 0/9/21 masteries. I like to build FC + wards -> mana manipulator -> philo -> boots1 -> kindlegem -> Soul Shroud -> cdr boots -> Aegis ->Shurelya's -> and if i can afford it (stupid # of assists) whichever of starks/wota that I feel will help out most.
Build is a little wonky but I like it and it gets the job done, I like to take cv (obvious), and heal summoner for use before lvl 6, and to supplement her weak ult heal later on.
I am at 1800 and I main support/jungle and one of the most played supports is janna for me(70+%wr with about 50+games) and getting the normal fc, 3wards, 2pots is best opening into philo, you dont need boots for a long time because your w gives you really nice speed so I normally rush a hog. after that i may grab boots or an oracles depending on the lane(or maybe just more pink wards for tri bush/dragon). The very nice thing about janna is that you basically dont need boots2 for a very long time imo. If you get farmed Id go for aegis, if not maybe build the shurs. after youre done aegis and shur and the game is still going id just grab chain vest/neg(after oracles+wards) based on what dmg type they have.
On January 10 2012 18:20 Norada wrote: I am at 1800 and I main support/jungle and one of the most played supports is janna for me(70+%wr with about 50+games) and getting the normal fc, 3wards, 2pots is best opening into philo, you dont need boots for a long time because your w gives you really nice speed so I normally rush a hog. after that i may grab boots or an oracles depending on the lane(or maybe just more pink wards for tri bush/dragon). The very nice thing about janna is that you basically dont need boots2 for a very long time imo. If you get farmed Id go for aegis, if not maybe build the shurs. after youre done aegis and shur and the game is still going id just grab chain vest/neg(after oracles+wards) based on what dmg type they have.
Yeah i agree on putting off boots, but I really don't like HoG on her that much, it doesn't build into any real utility on her, i think going the mana manip -> soul shroud is worth giving up a little gp10
On January 10 2012 18:20 Norada wrote: I am at 1800 and I main support/jungle and one of the most played supports is janna for me(70+%wr with about 50+games) and getting the normal fc, 3wards, 2pots is best opening into philo, you dont need boots for a long time because your w gives you really nice speed so I normally rush a hog. after that i may grab boots or an oracles depending on the lane(or maybe just more pink wards for tri bush/dragon). The very nice thing about janna is that you basically dont need boots2 for a very long time imo. If you get farmed Id go for aegis, if not maybe build the shurs. after youre done aegis and shur and the game is still going id just grab chain vest/neg(after oracles+wards) based on what dmg type they have.
jeah i agree on putting off boots, but I really don't like HoG on her that much, it doesn't build into any real utility on her, i think going the mana manip -> soul shroud is worth giving up a little gp10
Soul shroud is terrible. Rather get an aegis. Also you stated that you start with a mana manipulator. That's really bad, you don't provide any service for your carry except "physical protection". I gotta agree with the guy above you, fc+3wards+2hpots is the best opening by far.
On January 10 2012 18:20 Norada wrote: I am at 1800 and I main support/jungle and one of the most played supports is janna for me(70+%wr with about 50+games) and getting the normal fc, 3wards, 2pots is best opening into philo, you dont need boots for a long time because your w gives you really nice speed so I normally rush a hog. after that i may grab boots or an oracles depending on the lane(or maybe just more pink wards for tri bush/dragon). The very nice thing about janna is that you basically dont need boots2 for a very long time imo. If you get farmed Id go for aegis, if not maybe build the shurs. after youre done aegis and shur and the game is still going id just grab chain vest/neg(after oracles+wards) based on what dmg type they have.
jeah i agree on putting off boots, but I really don't like HoG on her that much, it doesn't build into any real utility on her, i think going the mana manip -> soul shroud is worth giving up a little gp10
Soul shroud is terrible. Rather get an aegis. Also you stated that you start with a mana manipulator. That's really bad, you don't provide any service for your carry except "physical protection". I gotta agree with the guy above you, fc+3wards+2hpots is the best opening by far.
CDR + Mana regen on Janna is terrible? OK.... Also I don't start with manip, I start with fairie charm + wards, I just build manip it on my first back and grab the fairie charm for philo then too, the mana regen you get from that allows you to throw up lots of knockups and sheilds early game, which I like. I went 1/1/9, 0/4/19, and 7/3/26 (mejais game lol) I'n my last 3 matches with her all wins, I'm not just theorycrafting shit here, also I do get an aegis, right after soul shroud.
You dont really care about spamming your spells too much in lane though. Your whole goal with janna is to just survive the lane, but if the other team is terrible try for the kills. Janna is the best support out of lane for your team(in most cases) but somewhat weak in lane compared to others.
The hog is just good for gold acceleration so later you can keep up with getting wards/oracles. The hp is nice too. No reason to not get it imo. Unless youre too busy counter warding but most supports barely do this. Also if youre going 7/3/26 on janna youre either 1k elo, playing normals or just got super lucky.
On January 10 2012 18:20 Norada wrote: I am at 1800 and I main support/jungle and one of the most played supports is janna for me(70+%wr with about 50+games) and getting the normal fc, 3wards, 2pots is best opening into philo, you dont need boots for a long time because your w gives you really nice speed so I normally rush a hog. after that i may grab boots or an oracles depending on the lane(or maybe just more pink wards for tri bush/dragon). The very nice thing about janna is that you basically dont need boots2 for a very long time imo. If you get farmed Id go for aegis, if not maybe build the shurs. after youre done aegis and shur and the game is still going id just grab chain vest/neg(after oracles+wards) based on what dmg type they have.
jeah i agree on putting off boots, but I really don't like HoG on her that much, it doesn't build into any real utility on her, i think going the mana manip -> soul shroud is worth giving up a little gp10
Soul shroud is terrible. Rather get an aegis. Also you stated that you start with a mana manipulator. That's really bad, you don't provide any service for your carry except "physical protection". I gotta agree with the guy above you, fc+3wards+2hpots is the best opening by far.
CDR + Mana regen on Janna is terrible? OK.... Also I don't start with manip, I start with fairie charm + wards, I just build manip it on my first back and grab the fairie charm for philo then too, the mana regen you get from that allows you to throw up lots of knockups and sheilds early game, which I like. I went 1/1/9, 0/4/19, and 7/3/26 (mejais game lol) I'n my last 3 matches with her all wins, I'm not just theorycrafting shit here, also I do get an aegis, right after soul shroud.
Soulshroud is still terrible. It costs too much and provides little if nothing for your team.
Philo -> Kindlegem is a better way to get what you desire which is CDR+mana reg. You should have plenty to spam around and it builds into reverie which is a godlike item.
Hey, just a low ranked scrub here, I've been playing Janna a hell of a lot recently in ranked (18/9 with her overall, she has taken me from 900 ELO to just over 1.1k atm ) and was looking for some feedback on the build/runes I usually go on her.
I open up faerie charm wards x3 pots x2, usually don't b until I have enough for a philo/HoG and at least one ward if I can, then will get T1 boots and build an aegis/shurelyas depending on opposition team comp. I run 0/3/27 (With three points in armor) on her, and in terms of runes I go gp5 quints, and a mixture of mana/mana regen/armor. Constructive criticism would be much appreciated .
Normally I would go 0/21/9 on her for masteries. for runes I personally run, gp5 quints, red armor, yellow armor, mr blues. makes you super tanky in lane and for team fights. janna is very nice in soloq(at lower lvls) because most of the time the other team cant pressure you out and late game youre normally better than most supports if played correctly.
On January 17 2012 15:11 Norada wrote: Normally I would go 0/21/9 on her for masteries. for runes I personally run, gp5 quints, red armor, yellow armor, mr blues. makes you super tanky in lane and for team fights. janna is very nice in soloq(at lower lvls) because most of the time the other team cant pressure you out and late game youre normally better than most supports if played correctly.
Basically this is the exact method that I run (I have MR per level blues, not flats though which maybe different). I'm pretty sure this is pretty standard, especially soloque build.
Xpecial runs it a little bit different, I can't remember what it is, he doesn't run what his guide says though. Nyph runs the squishy Janna going 0/9/21 and run Gold quints/Gold Yellows/Armor Reds/AP blues...which I'm not too sure about, especially the gold yellows, but I never did the math, however..I'd assume 21 in utility + gold quints is already more than enough gold ticks.
I open up faerie charm wards x3 pots x2, usually don't b until I have enough for a philo/HoG and at least one ward if I can, then will get T1 boots and build an aegis/shurelyas depending on opposition team comp. I run 0/3/27 (With three points in armor) on her, and in terms of runes I go gp5 quints, and a mixture of mana/mana regen/armor. Constructive criticism would be much appreciated .
I wouldn't wait so long to start your gp10 train. With 0cs, you're waiting for 620+825+75 = a lot of gold. On my first buy I will usually be able to grab philo + boots + 2 wards. Maybe if there were successful ganks I can get an early oracles if i'm ahead, but that's usually for next buy if i'm ahead.
My general item progression is (I'm 1555 highest btw) faerie 3ward 2 pot -> philo+ boots1 -> kage's/kindlegem/oracles (some or all) -> mobility boots -> shurelyia's/aegis. If the game is still going on by now, I might be asked to get stark's for my AD, but will usually have one slot open and always buying 5 wards and having oracles in best case scenario
I run 9/0/21 for cooldowns ( I see little benefit for 9 in defense, I don't put myself out of position to take needless damage early game), and heal + cv. Janna is way too fragile to initiate with, and you want to be sure you're actually alive and in position to shield your carry, slow their bruisers and tornado guys off your carry
edit* skill build i do 1point in Q, then E, then W, then max E and W respectively, Q last edit** I didn't mean 9 in offense, just 8 for the cdr lol, 10% magic pen doesn't really do much, the last point can be put into anything else in support usually
I'm also torn on masteries for Janna. I've tried 21 defense, which is nice but you're actually pretty hard to catch and the cooldown mastery in the defense tree doesn't really go big until later. Also tried 0/9/21, but I think if you're going utility you'd might as well go 9/0/21 for more cooldowns. Janna loves them cooldowns.
With the gold masteries I open fairy charm, 1 health pot, 2 green wards and 1 pink ward. Control ALL THE BUSHES!
Get early philo, and maybe another gp5 item if you're feeling lazy and/or your lane got an early double kill or something. Otherwise I usually grab a random dorans ring, or rush to kindle. I also like to get oracles nice and early on Janna because unless you do something dumb you're really hard to actually catch/kill. Aegis is fun, starks is fun, or I also like Morellos. Max out your CDR, get plenty of mana, and Janna's shield scales really well with AP so I never feel like it's wasted. Once you have like shurelia and some other cdr, just be a ward machine. Ward everywhere!
On January 19 2012 00:07 Haemonculus wrote: I'm also torn on masteries for Janna. I've tried 21 defense, which is nice but you're actually pretty hard to catch and the cooldown mastery in the defense tree doesn't really go big until later. Also tried 0/9/21, but I think if you're going utility you'd might as well go 9/0/21 for more cooldowns. Janna loves them cooldowns.
With the gold masteries I open fairy charm, 1 health pot, 2 green wards and 1 pink ward. Control ALL THE BUSHES!
Get early philo, and maybe another gp5 item if you're feeling lazy and/or your lane got an early double kill or something. Otherwise I usually grab a random dorans ring, or rush to kindle. I also like to get oracles nice and early on Janna because unless you do something dumb you're really hard to actually catch/kill. Aegis is fun, starks is fun, or I also like Morellos. Max out your CDR, get plenty of mana, and Janna's shield scales really well with AP so I never feel like it's wasted. Once you have like shurelia and some other cdr, just be a ward machine. Ward everywhere!
21 in util for flash ults erry day. the extra cash from greed can pay for enough additional studiness to eclipse 21 in def.
On January 19 2012 00:07 Haemonculus wrote: I'm also torn on masteries for Janna. I've tried 21 defense, which is nice but you're actually pretty hard to catch and the cooldown mastery in the defense tree doesn't really go big until later. Also tried 0/9/21, but I think if you're going utility you'd might as well go 9/0/21 for more cooldowns. Janna loves them cooldowns.
With the gold masteries I open fairy charm, 1 health pot, 2 green wards and 1 pink ward. Control ALL THE BUSHES!
Get early philo, and maybe another gp5 item if you're feeling lazy and/or your lane got an early double kill or something. Otherwise I usually grab a random dorans ring, or rush to kindle. I also like to get oracles nice and early on Janna because unless you do something dumb you're really hard to actually catch/kill. Aegis is fun, starks is fun, or I also like Morellos. Max out your CDR, get plenty of mana, and Janna's shield scales really well with AP so I never feel like it's wasted. Once you have like shurelia and some other cdr, just be a ward machine. Ward everywhere!
I just feel that 21 uti forces you to get both cv and flash since you basicly masteried for it. You just need your carry to run heal then, and most people prefer cleanse/exhaust :/
It's more like you already get lower CD on summoners so CV becomes somewhat useful and it's kinda good in that situation that i don't feel the need for heal. And flash 2gud on janna
On January 19 2012 07:11 Sponkz wrote: It's more like you already get lower CD on summoners so CV becomes somewhat useful and it's kinda good in that situation that i don't feel the need for heal. And flash 2gud on janna
I wouldn't take flash on her. Janna is way too fragile to initiate with it. You NEED to be alive during the fights, making sure you can use Q,W,E to ensure your carry stays alive. You use your ult to pin teams into chokes, keep guys off your carry and what not. I you are the only initiation your team has, you've got a problem
Why would you initiate with it rather than flash into a fight someone else has initiated to blow half their team away, and the other half into you? Being able to position yourself near your carry, but threaten ults near your midline is scary.
The reason why I dont think going 21 in utility is a good idea is because janna is generally weakest in laning phase. you can get dominated if outpoked so that's why the defense tree really helps with this. you get initiator for more move spd and cdr also. i used to always go 21utility back when cv was used but now with heal just being tankier seems really nice, a lot of high dmg champs(graves,sivir) have come out recently also that can easily spike you down so the defense masteries help a lot.
Also im a 1900janna player and have 70% wr on her.
Haha why would you ever flash to initiate? Flash is for after the other team has already initiated and you need to tell them to gtfo asap
edit: as for CDR in the defense tree, you get 6% cdr at lvl1 in the util tree, which is going to help more laning than the like .5% per level you get in def. I think defense tree has its uses on some supports, but I don't think janna needs it
with janna you can just pickup the extra 4% cdr from offense instead of going any into utility.it's about a difference of about .1s off the cd. only thing is would you rather have the extra ap+heal+dmg reduction+cc reduction compared to what you get in utility. Greed is pretty nice though.
Also enlightenment equals out with intelligence by lvl 12 or so, and going defense tree you can easily go offense like I said too so you'll have more cdr compared to going deep line utility(12vs6). going offense and utility seems a bit ballsy also because the defense armor and mr are really nice.
looking at it more carefully looks like going something like 8/22/0 could be very strong. giving up greed is pretty sad though
but i agree with flash ulting, only if the game is already over and youre just fucking around or have a 100% chance of knocking someone back for a quick kill it hsould only be done lol
On January 20 2012 02:23 Norada wrote: with janna you can just pickup the extra 4% cdr from offense instead of going any into utility.it's about a difference of about .1s off the cd. only thing is would you rather have the extra ap+heal+dmg reduction+cc reduction compared to what you get in utility. Greed is pretty nice though.
Also enlightenment equals out with intelligence by lvl 12 or so, and going defense tree you can easily go offense like I said too so you'll have more cdr compared to going deep line utility(12vs6). going offense and utility seems a bit ballsy also because the defense armor and mr are really nice.
looking at it more carefully looks like going something like 8/22/0 could be very strong. giving up greed is pretty sad though
but i agree with flash ulting, only if the game is already over and youre just fucking around or have a 100% chance of knocking someone back for a quick kill it hsould only be done lol
Offense and utility gives you maximum possible CDR in the lane. Its really not that risky if you're pulling ahead on trades, and if you aren't, then going 9 into defense probably wouldn't have changed that. Alternatively, if your lane comp is bad, its likely that your janna pick was to leverage her ult in team fights vs something like kennen, not for her ability to crush the lane.
In both cases, I'd prefer 9/0/21.
On January 20 2012 02:35 spinesheath wrote: 21/1/7 and one point for whatever you want. Janna is an aggressive yet very dafe support. I have no idea why you would want 21 defense or util.
On January 20 2012 02:23 Norada wrote: with janna you can just pickup the extra 4% cdr from offense instead of going any into utility.it's about a difference of about .1s off the cd. only thing is would you rather have the extra ap+heal+dmg reduction+cc reduction compared to what you get in utility. Greed is pretty nice though.
Also enlightenment equals out with intelligence by lvl 12 or so, and going defense tree you can easily go offense like I said too so you'll have more cdr compared to going deep line utility(12vs6). going offense and utility seems a bit ballsy also because the defense armor and mr are really nice.
looking at it more carefully looks like going something like 8/22/0 could be very strong. giving up greed is pretty sad though
but i agree with flash ulting, only if the game is already over and youre just fucking around or have a 100% chance of knocking someone back for a quick kill it hsould only be done lol
Offense and utility gives you maximum possible CDR in the lane. Its really not that risky if you're pulling ahead on trades, and if you aren't, then going 9 into defense probably wouldn't have changed that. Alternatively, if your lane comp is bad, its likely that your janna pick was to leverage her ult in team fights vs something like kennen, not for her ability to crush the lane.
On January 20 2012 02:35 spinesheath wrote: 21/1/7 and one point for whatever you want. Janna is an aggressive yet very dafe support. I have no idea why you would want 21 defense or util.
Alternatively this.
I guess it's all just personal preference because you actually get more cdr from going defense and offense. After lvl 12 of course. So before lvl 12 there isnt much of a difference in cdr, but youre just in general more tanky to take the dmg from any kind of exchange or gank. Since most smart players try to exchange with janna.
As support you build tanky because in team fights you try and sit in front of your carry to tank the skillshots if you can also, going 21offensive doesnt seem good at all. Being more tanky means you can survive the aoe/burst that may happen to you also, being able to stay in a fight longer is pretty nice.
On January 20 2012 10:20 Haemonculus wrote: Why would you go in offense though? So your autos in lane hurt a tiny bit more? o.O
I'll take cooldown reduction any day
Janna does 3 things in lane:
1) Sit back and shield damage. Only when you are losing the lane. Indicates a bad pick usually. CDR would help here, but you should avoid getting into this situation rather than provoke it by using a setup that is weak in combat.
2) Harrass in small bursts. These are mainly dictated by lasthit timings of both ADs and positioning. Cooldowns are not relevant for this. Offense helps quite a bit.
3) Engage and commit hard. Offense simply is superior for this.
That "tiny bit more" actually is pretty significant.
I would still run heavy defence and alternatively run offence. I would assume offence tree would fall off more heavily in the late game than defence since you will no longer be autoing. I still believe high utility makes Janna even weaker in lane because she cannot deal or absorb any damage, the CDR on summoner spells is the only real useful point in the entire tree.
Also, I don't get the obsession with CDR for skills. Of course she'll reach max CDR by the time she hits mid-late game since everyone builds Reverie, but early game shouldn't it be dead weight? If you use autoattacks, positioning and conserve your spells, you will almost never be in a situation where that additional half a second would have been useful (especially if you run flash/heal or exhaust/heal). Janna's mana pool also isn't very good to start, having CDR but not enough mana to back it up seems useless.
On January 21 2012 16:59 starfries wrote: So given the poor record in IEM, is Janna Vayne actually a bad lane?
Depends on your enemies, but often yes. Vayne Janna typically has to force fights and commit hard until their enemies are in kill range and thus zoned. Their chances are best if they run very aggressive setups like Heal Flash Vayne Exhaust Ignite Janna. But that exposes them to jungle threats.
On January 17 2012 15:11 Norada wrote: Normally I would go 0/21/9 on her for masteries. for runes I personally run, gp5 quints, red armor, yellow armor, mr blues. makes you super tanky in lane and for team fights. janna is very nice in soloq(at lower lvls) because most of the time the other team cant pressure you out and late game youre normally better than most supports if played correctly.
Basically this is the exact method that I run (I have MR per level blues, not flats though which maybe different). I'm pretty sure this is pretty standard, especially soloque build.
Xpecial runs it a little bit different, I can't remember what it is, he doesn't run what his guide says though. Nyph runs the squishy Janna going 0/9/21 and run Gold quints/Gold Yellows/Armor Reds/AP blues...which I'm not too sure about, especially the gold yellows, but I never did the math, however..I'd assume 21 in utility + gold quints is already more than enough gold ticks.
I personally go 0/15/15 Armour Reds/GP10 Yellows/MP5/Lvl Blues/GP10 Quints, REWQ, Starting either Faerie+3ward+2pot or Cloth+2ward+1pot depending on the lane matchups, 78% winrate with Janna.
On January 19 2012 00:07 Haemonculus wrote: I'm also torn on masteries for Janna. I've tried 21 defense, which is nice but you're actually pretty hard to catch and the cooldown mastery in the defense tree doesn't really go big until later. Also tried 0/9/21, but I think if you're going utility you'd might as well go 9/0/21 for more cooldowns. Janna loves them cooldowns.
With the gold masteries I open fairy charm, 1 health pot, 2 green wards and 1 pink ward. Control ALL THE BUSHES!
Get early philo, and maybe another gp5 item if you're feeling lazy and/or your lane got an early double kill or something. Otherwise I usually grab a random dorans ring, or rush to kindle. I also like to get oracles nice and early on Janna because unless you do something dumb you're really hard to actually catch/kill. Aegis is fun, starks is fun, or I also like Morellos. Max out your CDR, get plenty of mana, and Janna's shield scales really well with AP so I never feel like it's wasted. Once you have like shurelia and some other cdr, just be a ward machine. Ward everywhere!
I kinda open the same; pink ward is super nice to have. baiting a pink ward from them is aswell nice when you still have your own. I build her philo stone, heart of gold *unless its past 20mins* and then the kindlegem for cd reduction; level 2 boots aswell after the kindglegem or heart off gold; you do love cd reduction on janna - i sort off play her aggresively alot; with a good ad carry you can kill people so simple with exhaust on you. I agree on the early oracle but nowadays I feel like just having good pink coverage is good enough; i rather buy a pink ward then get an oracle and die stupidly; sets you far behind - while a pink vs green is just 50gold.
Aswell something I want to add; Janna / Miss Fortune lane is sooooo fun and strong;
Please don't be that support that says "I'll buy wards after I finish my gp5." Buy wards from the start of the game, and keep your lane and dragon warded (at a MINIMUM).
Shurelya's takes forever to finish, can't imagine delaying wards until after that. I buy 2 every time I go back at a minimum. Sometimes it's nice to have 3 (or an extra pink) just in case.
ult for a specific purpose, and let your team know that's what you're gonna do. the best uses of janna ult are disengaging, pushing fags like Kennen out of your team when they R, or trapping one person who is out of position with flash+R. as a positional tool it's really really strong, so grow a backbone and learn how to use it :D
Coming back to lane with less than 3 wards is pretty uncomfortable, less than 2 is pretty much inexcusable unless you let your AD know to buy a ward for you.
if you're top side, there are two ways to get ganked, through tribrush/river or through lane brush, if you're bot side, there are three, tribrush, river, or lane. Occasionally you may get dove from your blue brush if you're top but that's only when someones fucked up hard. Lane ganks can be predicted more easily if you pay attention to enemy jungler path. So there's pretty much no point at having 3 wards in your inventory at any time until after laning phase is over. You're welcome to buy as many wards as you feel like after your first gp10, but prior to that I would conserve as much as possible unless your AD is absolutely retarded and have to see a gank before he believes it.
On March 27 2012 05:47 zulu_nation8 wrote: if you're top side, there are two ways to get ganked, through tribrush/river or through lane brush, if you're bot side, there are three, tribrush, river, or lane. Occasionally you may get dove from your blue brush if you're top but that's only when someones fucked up hard. Lane ganks can be predicted more easily if you pay attention to enemy jungler path. So there's pretty much no point at having 3 wards in your inventory at any time until after laning phase is over. You're welcome to buy as many wards as you feel like after your first gp10, but prior to that I would conserve as much as possible unless your AD is absolutely retarded and have to see a gank before he believes it.
Yes, there are 2 decent paths to gank from, and then another ward to give vision of a bush in case you need it for a kill. Like I said, kind of uncomfortable to not have that 1 extra ward, pretty bad to not have 2 to cover gank paths.
On March 27 2012 04:39 Sandster wrote: Please don't be that support that says "I'll buy wards after I finish my gp5." Buy wards from the start of the game, and keep your lane and dragon warded (at a MINIMUM).
Rightrightright, maybe my post was misleading. I didn't mean that I didn't buy any wards until after GP5, I just meant that I only kept bot lane+dragon warded, until I had my GP5. After that, I go all out whole map warded all game.
On March 27 2012 05:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: ult for a specific purpose, and let your team know that's what you're gonna do. the best uses of janna ult are disengaging, pushing fags like Kennen out of your team when they R, or trapping one person who is out of position with flash+R. as a positional tool it's really really strong, so grow a backbone and learn how to use it :D
I still love to ult when Morgana jumps in ^^ whenever she isn't banned; i dont mind at all to play vs her as janna ^^
On March 27 2012 05:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: ult for a specific purpose, and let your team know that's what you're gonna do. the best uses of janna ult are disengaging, pushing fags like Kennen out of your team when they R, or trapping one person who is out of position with flash+R. as a positional tool it's really really strong, so grow a backbone and learn how to use it :D
I still love to ult when Morgana jumps in ^^ whenever she isn't banned; i dont mind at all to play vs her as janna ^^
I had the sickest flash ult into galio ult to clear everyone out, oh boy sheep was soo mad.
I have the +starting gold masteries so I like to start Regrowth + 1 ward early game. It allows me to be super aggressive since I have the regrowth pendant. I'll usually put the 1st ward down around the 3 minute mark or so. Sometimes later, depending on the jungler, how pushed the lane is, etc etc.
Starting regrowth is great because it means I only need another 365 gold to get my Philo stone, which 365 gold comes by pretty quick. Usually I'll be able to go back, get Philo stone and another 1 or 2 wards for lane.
The only downside is not having a pink ward early, so if the enemy team early pink wards your river ward you might have to go back earlier to grab more wards. If they don't have a pink ward, you just take the lead from being aggressive & getting your gp5 item faster.
On March 28 2012 16:24 SidianTheBard wrote: I have the +starting gold masteries so I like to start Regrowth + 1 ward early game. It allows me to be super aggressive since I have the regrowth pendant. I'll usually put the 1st ward down around the 3 minute mark or so. Sometimes later, depending on the jungler, how pushed the lane is, etc etc.
Starting regrowth is great because it means I only need another 365 gold to get my Philo stone, which 365 gold comes by pretty quick. Usually I'll be able to go back, get Philo stone and another 1 or 2 wards for lane.
The only downside is not having a pink ward early, so if the enemy team early pink wards your river ward you might have to go back earlier to grab more wards. If they don't have a pink ward, you just take the lead from being aggressive & getting your gp5 item faster.
So unless either you or your ad carry recalls after roughly 6 min, your lane is pretty much free to gank. Where do you ward? Honestly i only see this working as blue team if you have someone else ward the upper entrance to the lower jungle, and still then i don't like the idea of having just 1 ward. It allows brush ganks so much more.
If you open Regrowth+ward on any support and I'm on the other team, I'm going to absolutely hound you to see where you put it, then tell the jungler to gank accordingly. 1 ward can't even cover the river gank lanes.
Most of the harass should go towards your AD carry, so regrowth is useless. The only time supports get focused is when he sets himself up for it, but usually that's a bad idea with or without regrowth.
On March 28 2012 22:18 Sandster wrote: If you open Regrowth+ward on any support and I'm on the other team, I'm going to absolutely hound you to see where you put it, then tell the jungler to gank accordingly. 1 ward can't even cover the river gank lanes.
If you are blue team, I'll either have my mid/jungle ward by our wraiths so we know if an enemy is coming thru our jungle while I ward up by the dragon area. Or if mid/jungle can't ward by wraiths you just put a ward in your tri-bushes and play cautiously, don't push close to the river, stay towards your bushes.
If you are purple team you ward river because you usually don't have to worry about a jungle gank coming from your blue buff area and if that is going to happen they will have to tower dive you anyway.
Also, by the 6 minute mark when your first ward is going down you will have enough to go back, get your philo stone and another couple wards.
On March 29 2012 00:05 Juicyfruit wrote: Most of the harass should go towards your AD carry, so regrowth is useless. The only time supports get focused is when he sets himself up for it, but usually that's a bad idea with or without regrowth.
Diving the support while using exhaust on the AD carry is a great as well. Especially since many supports don't run with anything defensive, where as at least most AD carries will have armor yellows and mres blues.
Also, when I run janna I run Heal/Exhaust, as long as you aren't pushed up to the enemy tower 1 ward is plenty, especially considering your heal, your exhaust, your tornado, your shield, your slow to counter any ganks that are coming your way, if they do manage to sneak by your wards. As I said, the only problem is if they can pink ward your ward immediately, then it might be in your best interest to go back.
On March 28 2012 22:18 Sandster wrote: If you open Regrowth+ward on any support and I'm on the other team, I'm going to absolutely hound you to see where you put it, then tell the jungler to gank accordingly. 1 ward can't even cover the river gank lanes.
On March 29 2012 00:05 Juicyfruit wrote: Most of the harass should go towards your AD carry, so regrowth is useless. The only time supports get focused is when he sets himself up for it, but usually that's a bad idea with or without regrowth.
Diving the support while using exhaust on the AD carry is a great as well. Especially since many supports don't run with anything defensive, where as at least most AD carries will have armor yellows and mres blues.
Also, when I run janna I run Heal/Exhaust, as long as you aren't pushed up to the enemy tower 1 ward is plenty, especially considering your heal, your exhaust, your tornado, your shield, your slow to counter any ganks that are coming your way, if they do manage to sneak by your wards. As I said, the only problem is if they can pink ward your ward immediately, then it might be in your best interest to go back.
You can blow all the summoners and mana you want to escape ganks, but the question still remains how that regrowth is going to help you be aggressive when the other support is the one with 2 extra potions on you + lane wards to actually have brush control? It's not like you can just walk over and zone the AD carry with that extra regrowth either because you'll get smashed.
On March 28 2012 22:18 Sandster wrote: If you open Regrowth+ward on any support and I'm on the other team, I'm going to absolutely hound you to see where you put it, then tell the jungler to gank accordingly. 1 ward can't even cover the river gank lanes.
If you are blue team, I'll either have my mid/jungle ward by our wraiths so we know if an enemy is coming thru our jungle while I ward up by the dragon area. Or if mid/jungle can't ward by wraiths you just put a ward in your tri-bushes and play cautiously, don't push close to the river, stay towards your bushes.
If you are purple team you ward river because you usually don't have to worry about a jungle gank coming from your blue buff area and if that is going to happen they will have to tower dive you anyway.
Also, by the 6 minute mark when your first ward is going down you will have enough to go back, get your philo stone and another couple wards.
On March 29 2012 00:05 Juicyfruit wrote: Most of the harass should go towards your AD carry, so regrowth is useless. The only time supports get focused is when he sets himself up for it, but usually that's a bad idea with or without regrowth.
Diving the support while using exhaust on the AD carry is a great as well. Especially since many supports don't run with anything defensive, where as at least most AD carries will have armor yellows and mres blues.
Also, when I run janna I run Heal/Exhaust, as long as you aren't pushed up to the enemy tower 1 ward is plenty, especially considering your heal, your exhaust, your tornado, your shield, your slow to counter any ganks that are coming your way, if they do manage to sneak by your wards. As I said, the only problem is if they can pink ward your ward immediately, then it might be in your best interest to go back.
Pink wards are probably the worst problem you could have. It's trivial for the opposing support to counterward you, at which point you and your AD have to retreat from any offensive action for fear of the enemy jungler. This severely limits your AD's ability to CS, and any time you spend going back to buy replacement wards only leaves your AD at a greater disadvantage.
Even if you aren't counterwarded you still have completely ceded brush control and are vulnerable to lane ganks. Your strategy may work against some opponents who don't know how to punish your build choice, but as you face stronger opponents or coordinated teams you'll find your lane struggling because of your decision.
Yup as these guys have said - I open faerie + 2 green wards + pink ward + health pot on almost every support. If I see you have regrowth + 1 ward I'm going to make sure I know where you put it and tell my team to react accordingly.
Janna losing brush control is really bad since you have no sustain, and not having the option to brush ward can make your AD's life very difficult. I have played AD with supports who open with only 1 ward and I pretty much hate them every time. Your job as support is to make sure your AD can farm up. Trying to cut corners for your items at the expense of your AD's cs and safety is a bad idea.
I had a triple kill bot last night; before 5mins ^^ so went back got boots + 2 gold items; then after i was 6-1 i got told to go AD janna :D:D bf sword; black cleaver; phantom dancer; .. funny as hell :D they did start to focus me alot more tho; so ended up with 9-4 ^^
^ AD Janna ?! I didn't even know that works! I know AP Janna is very viable and so is AD sona. I'm wondering if you got lucky or its a legitimately viable build.
On April 12 2012 13:07 Strykemard wrote: ^ AD Janna ?! I didn't even know that works! I know AP Janna is very viable and so is AD sona. I'm wondering if you got lucky or its a legitimately viable build.
AD Janna is definitely viable in normal games. I've ran it a couple times. You got great movespeed and an ad steroid. She's not great as an AD carry for many reasons, but if AD Sona is on your viable list, AD Janna should be as well.
What rune pages are you guys using for support janna? I've got 3 gold/10 quints but I have no idea what else I should put in, and am using mpen reds, flat armor yellows, and mr/lvl blues as place holders.
What supports do well against a janna support? My main supports are Taric and Leona, and Janna is strong against both (Taric for being able to shield his obvious damage and disengage and Leona for extreme disengage), and as a support main, I like to be able to counterpick the other support if possible. I have tried soraka, but with Janna's boatloads of CC its hard running away from her and her AD if you don't have flash up.
On July 01 2012 10:35 57 Corvette wrote: What supports do well against a janna support? My main supports are Taric and Leona, and Janna is strong against both (Taric for being able to shield his obvious damage and disengage and Leona for extreme disengage), and as a support main, I like to be able to counterpick the other support if possible. I have tried soraka, but with Janna's boatloads of CC its hard running away from her and her AD if you don't have flash up.
Blitz is pretty good vs janna, as if you pull her, she dies.
Taric can farm and has a bit of kill potential vs janna.
Soraka can farm vs janna, and maybe poke - > kill (depends how good janna's shields are). (depends on AD too)
Leona sucks vs her, as a good janna will just nado your lance.
Alistar I don't have much experience with, however if your with a poke ad you can probably force them out of lane eventually.
Using ult effectively is reason why people consider janna as rather high-skillcap support.
Disengage- throwing people away when you notice that your team isnt ready to fight Saving ally in clutch situation(mostly happens early on when healing is enough to outdamage enemies, or just simple knocking them away) Knocking away people towards towers,
Proper usage of ult requires vast game knowledge, but can be really rewarding.
Given that you have more gold as a support i really like Athene's Unholy Grail. The CDR, additional AP (with the new AP ratios it's not that bad, but not OP either) and mana regeneration it should cover your most basic needs. From here you can pretty much do whatever; Frozen Heart, Banshee's Veil, Guardian Angel whatever you feel like you need to survive and help your team. Unlike all-in supports, Janna just needs to stay healthy and survive through the initial burst, and if you do that, Grail will make sure you can assist your team untill the very end of fights.
For lane someting like relic shield -> targon -> sightstone (upgrade accordingly) -> boots5 seems solid. Don't upgrade your boots before you start roaming though. You can also get chalice if you're really fed and/or they have heavy AP synergy (Annie/Ezreal).
I'm divided between 0/9/21 and 0/21/9 but MSPD is quite good on Janna and you shouldn't take too much damage if you play it right. My runes atm are MSPD quints, armor seals, armor marks and mix magic resist glyphs (scaling and flat).
Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game.
On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote: So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice?
9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%.
Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options.
Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities.
Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus.
Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE).
Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote: So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice?
9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%.
Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options.
Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities.
Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus.
Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE).
Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote: Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game.
These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too.
Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
Yes and no. The codex will move you from 30 to 40% cdr. This is effectively 16% more shields and 16% more of your primary nuke (since you only have one) that in itself is efficient*. Eventually it upgrades to dfg (ie single slot max AP item) which makes it super efficient.
* its worth about 57 AP for your shield not counting any other AP you have. Making the final effective AP to be about 87. Which is pretty decent in and of itself.
The other thing is that Janna scales very hard on cdr because she is so cc dependent and at some point you will have enough AP that it is unlikely your shield(at least the second one) will be broken in 5 seconds. Without cdr this gives enemies between 2 and 5 seconds to get damage in on your champions when you cannot protect them. 40% cdr takes this down to 1 second. Halving the time your adc spends exposed.
The only reason you upgrade it last is because you don't really need the dfg active and because you don't have boots you aren't slot constrained. Getting to dcap and zhonyas earlier is typically better.
Sightstone, morello, codex, gold item, you still have two slots for the components of deathcap and another NLR to turn into Zhonya. Through dfg before zhonya is not bad either i tend to value the defensive active higher over more ap at that point.
Well Janna's lowered winrate is quite obvious because she was nerfed terribly in the 3.14 patch. While the patch should have been the rise of OP Janna support (because she was almost undeniably the #1 support at using farm). However, Riot anticipated this, and thus significantly nerfed the power of her passive, Q, and W. The scaling cc change is really bizarre, so they really made her weakest part even weaker, and let other supports really scale up with janna in ways they never could before.
On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote: So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice?
9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%.
Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options.
Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities.
Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus.
Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE).
Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote: Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game.
These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too.
Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics.
"Just so stories" are rationalizations that can be applied to any situation to justify a belief.
It never occured to you that some might have left her out due to nerfs and some took her in believing that she would be stronger with gold scaling?
It's okay if you think win rates are that important, but it shouldn't make it or break it for champions, that's just dumb. I also believe that many support players left out the traditional supports for more AP-oriented supports. I personally think Janna's more than fine, just give it some time. They did some serious changes for the support role in general, people are still experimenting and it's way too early to jump into conclusions that she sucks, just because she gets picked 3-4% less than previously.
On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote: So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice?
9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%.
Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options.
Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities.
Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus.
Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE).
Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Why is 10% cdr so important? 9 in offensive means going for that shitty AP point yea? Why would you do that?
W max, again why? Shield is way more important in trades imo, not only for the shield but also for the additional AD.
On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote: So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice?
9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%.
Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options.
Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities.
Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus.
Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE).
Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote: Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game.
These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too.
Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics.
"Just so stories" are rationalizations that can be applied to any situation to justify a belief.
It never occured to you that some might have left her out due to nerfs and some took her in believing that she would be stronger with gold scaling?
It's okay if you think win rates are that important, but it shouldn't make it or break it for champions, that's just dumb. I also believe that many support players left out the traditional supports for more AP-oriented supports. I personally think Janna's more than fine, just give it some time. They did some serious changes for the support role in general, people are still experimenting and it's way too early to jump into conclusions that she sucks, just because she gets picked 3-4% less than previously.
I was commenting on win rate not pick rate...
That good Jannas are switching away from Janna because they heard she's nerfed is another "just so story."
I'll still play Janna at least a few more times. She's been an amazing support, fun and useful, and I'm hoping people just don't realize to build some AP on her.
Problem is if she's got a ton of AP she can't just throw her ult out as a disengage and stop the channel, she'll want to get the most out of it. And her allies will want to stand in it. People aren't used to caring about the healing portion of Janna's ult.
Looking at the numbers I don't think she got nerfed that hard.
Why is 10% cdr so important? 9 in offensive means going for that shitty AP point yea? Why would you do that?
W max, again why? Shield is way more important in trades imo, not only for the shield but also for the additional AD.
10% cdr is important because let lets you get your shield and w up faster. It allows you to build all of the max AP items and still get 40% cdr with only one of the 20% cdr items. 40% cdr is important because shield uptime is key to Janna and AP is critical because of shield strength.
Max w because Jesus Christ look at your abilities! Generally you want to maximize the thing which gives you the most benefit per level. Most of the time this is a simple check because you can look at the cdr of abilities and see which one has the most combined effective damage.
Maxing shield gives you 40 shield and 10 ad bonus. An Ad bonus which you generally wont be able to use because you lose the ad when the shield is down and the shield will almost guaranteed to be burst through until you have ap. Additionally the skill costs more.
Maxing Zephyr gives you 55 damage per level. It gives you 2% move speed per level. It gives your slow another 4% slow per level. It reduces the cd of the ability by 1'second per level (down to 8). You trade better with w because of the increased base damage, move speed which let's you dictate engagements easier, a slow which helps you generate picks and prosecute trades which end up favorable, and cdr to do it faster.
Your adc will have life steal or some extra form of sustain (and you will too if you're double targon). So it's more important to do more damage in a spike and so be ahead of the enemy lane than it is to prevent the top end of your hp from being removed (ie you don't waste your sustain)
You are right in that you don't need the AP from offense as Janna but i fail to see any reason why you would not want it. And would go for the relatively poor early defensive masteries( since you can't get the bonus hp without losing the cdr). And because AP makes you trade better than the minus damage masteries.
Yeah i'm looking at the abilities and still wondering why on earth you would max W. Lvl 1 E is 80 shield and 14 AD while lvl 5 E is 240 shield with 50 AD. 50 AD is worth 1800 gold, are you telling me seriously that you think W's 280 magic damage is worth more than that? If you were playing AP mid i would totally agree that W max seems the best, but from a duo-synergy perspective where you're going to play with an AD Carry that builds multiplicative scaling items it's a riddle to me why you undervalue raw AD with such a potent shield. It seems that you wanna do initial burst for poking, but in higher levels of play, Janna is merely a back-ground baby sitter that boosts and peels for her AD Carry in lane. If you think about it, you will have to go into near melee range to use W, try doing that against zyra/thresh/blitz/taric/leona. It won't go that well.
I think 9 offensive is worse than 9 defensive. If you need that last 5% CDR i would really recommend you to get it from runes. I do not think 10% cdr from masteries/runes is needed though, but you seem to favor a more AP-oriented build where my only AP item usually is Athene's Unholy Grail and then i build tanky/utility items afterwards.
On November 27 2013 17:21 Sponkz wrote: Yeah i know you were commenting on win rate, read again.
Let's just agree that we disagree
Sure.
On CDR:
If you're going to go 9/0/21 for 10% cdr, why not make up the last 10% with scaling cdr runes. That way you'll reach 10% cdr from the runes at level 18, while also not going over the 40% cdr cap.
Or if you need 40% sooner get 15% from cdr boots, 5% from runes, and 20% from grail. I don't think Janna's the best carrier of DFG since 2 of her abilities do no damage to amplify the active and Q isn't a reliably nuke. Finally, Talisman of Ascension gives you 20% CDR and Face of the mountain gives you 10% CDR. I'd go for one of those before getting codex. Surprised Ashe's claim doesn't provide CDR.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
Yes and no. The codex will move you from 30 to 40% cdr. This is effectively 16% more shields and 16% more of your primary nuke (since you only have one) that in itself is efficient*. Eventually it upgrades to dfg (ie single slot max AP item) which makes it super efficient.
* its worth about 57 AP for your shield not counting any other AP you have. Making the final effective AP to be about 87. Which is pretty decent in and of itself.
The other thing is that Janna scales very hard on cdr because she is so cc dependent and at some point you will have enough AP that it is unlikely your shield(at least the second one) will be broken in 5 seconds. Without cdr this gives enemies between 2 and 5 seconds to get damage in on your champions when you cannot protect them. 40% cdr takes this down to 1 second. Halving the time your adc spends exposed.
The only reason you upgrade it last is because you don't really need the dfg active and because you don't have boots you aren't slot constrained. Getting to dcap and zhonyas earlier is typically better.
Sightstone, morello, codex, gold item, you still have two slots for the components of deathcap and another NLR to turn into Zhonya. Through dfg before zhonya is not bad either i tend to value the defensive active higher over more ap at that point.
The 16% isn't backloaded. You get 10% out of the gate. The margin just increases as the game goes on.
5% cdr from runes is more expensive than 5% cdr from masteries. 5% cdr from runes will cost you 15 AP(or Your AP blues) which beats the three damage per attack you lose from the defensive masteries
Typically I get q,e r>w>e>q. The first level of shield is very strong. It's got twice the effect per level as the other levels. The second level is weak it's got half the effect that a level of w has.
Yes it provides 9 damage per level of ad. But you can't effectively use that because it only lasts as long as the shield is up. Enemies have two responses to a shield Janna puts up. They either burst it down or they run.
If they burst it down congrats you've got no value from the ad. If they run congrats you've got no value from the ad. If you max w they cannot run.
Yes it's got 9 ad per level but by the mid game you're not fast enough without boots making you spend an extra 1000 gold on a slot inefficient item. The w max gets you closer to deathcap et al the extra Ap you get from skipping boots is at minimum 40 (blasting wand) and realistically more due to the way item breakpoints work. This is worth 1 to 2 free levels of e.
But how exactly are you using W in lane to harass? Like i said, taric/thresh/blitz/leona/zyra will PUNISH you over and over untill you realize how bad W max is for duo lanes.
You shouldn't pop the shield and then force a fight, you should use your shield to counter a fight from the enemy! Janna is all about counter-play and disengaging which is why the freaking shield is so broken. Say a Taric tries to stun your ADC, all it takes is shield+Q and you're winning the trade. You shouldn't look at it from a scaling PoV but rather see it as a power-tool for your AD carry in and after laning phase.
I really don't feel slow and i assume the 1000 gold you're talking about is for boots5 yeah? Why is that suddenly so bad a purchase? Do you have other boots in mind, if so which? How exactly are you able to afford Athene's Unholy Grail+DFG+Deathcap? I mean sure, if it goes past the 40 minute mark you may be able to get these 3 items but by that time you're level 18 anyways so you will not have to worry about scaling on your abilities anyways.
How are you able to get away with AP blues and W max? Are you playing normals or ranked? What rating are you having success with this?
Oh and now that i thought through this (deja vu), i realize i had this discussion with you in the Sona thread. Didn't you learn from this already? Back then you claimed that W max Janna could beat Sona in lane and all you provided was some shitty math and 1 replay with a complete moron you raped in lane. How are you backing this play-style up?
How do you use your shield to harass any of those champions? Eat a stun and their full burst combo then have a 60 damage w if you're not already dead?
It works the same way it works for those lanes except your shield is a bit weaker so your adc has to use a bit of their sustain. You w on the back end of the fight or as they're going in. You come out better in the trade by having a stronger w. The only times you're not is if they have a massive sustain advantage or if it's not a trade and you're just shielding damage.
I am doing this in plat(same place I beat that sona iirc). Though I did not play as much once I made it would have been possible to get diamond with a bit of mechanical work. I am still getting 2x as much lp for a win as a loss so i expect my mmr to be somewhere in the plat 1 to 3 range.
I put a value of 1000 out because it's about what boots run. Only merc treads and sorc shoes are more and only zerks are less. While it's not common to get to full build if you don't then you don't have to worry about the slot efficiency of the codex.
I don't understand your question about boots. Boots Janna is faster than no boots Janna. no boots Janna is just fast enough to not need boots (faster than your adc/mid with boots 2) so might as well get some ap instead and make your shield stronger. If you're not maxing w you will not be fast enough without boots for the midgame. So at level 9-13 when you are now maxing w and I am now maxing e I will have the raw power advantage for team fights and skirmishes.
On November 28 2013 02:23 Goumindong wrote: The 16% isn't backloaded. You get 10% out of the gate. The margin just increases as the game goes on.
5% cdr from runes is more expensive than 5% cdr from masteries. 5% cdr from runes will cost you 15 AP(or Your AP blues) which beats the three damage per attack you lose from the defensive masteries
I mean to say that cdr is an incredibly backloaded stat in most situations hence why burst champs get ap first.
If you are running away, you might use your Q to knock up enemies, E to shield your ally closest to them, and ult to move them away. That CDR doesn't make your shield 16% stronger or Q do 16% more damage in this situation.
I can sorta see the value in codex now though. Maybe you really want AP on Janna in late game.
You don't "harass" you counter-play! If you really think you randomly pop shield on ADC or yourself, then idk what sort of opponents you're playing. Every single decent Janna uses shield as soon as any type of engagement happen from the enemy. You aren't the one doing the damage in the duo lane, hell if you wanna do damage why the fuck are you picking Janna? Pick Annie, pick Zyra, but seriously don't pick Janna and expect to be a damage threat on pair with those 2 mages.
The way you describe your play-style is exactly how you're supposed to play it with E-max. Counter-play all day, no need to initiate, cus Janna is a terrible initiater (flash ult is nice, but that´s it). The hardest part is understanding the synergy in lanes and getting a good grasp of how/when/why you shield, but that is what makes Janna so damn hard and fun to play
I do however believe that W max as mid-lane AP Janna would be pretty beast with the new changes. The new scaling could make her extremely good in fast-pushing compositions, but I'll let the koreans figure that one out.
You're the one who brought up harassing not me. W is better for trades. Whether or not you initiate them. Shield is not necessary until later game when your adc doesn't have (as many) creeps to sustain off of.
@chicken. The other options are ok for cdr but the real reason for dfg is because of gold and slot efficient ap. (It's also why you sit on the codex and get cap/zhonya first. When you buy the codex you will go right to 40% cdr because you will already have a primary cdr/AP item.
You don't get cdr from runes because the trade off isn't worth it. To get the cdr you would have to give up about 15 ap late game or 15 mr. You can't get equivalent value out of that in the early mastery defensive mastery tree.
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting
People going 9 0 21 on janna are stuck in the past eg season 3 mentality. I would suggest 5(cdr+dealing dmg with spell increase allies dmg) X Y. The reason for going 9 in offense was the 8% penetration which is gone.
I play her really defensive in lane anyway and used to go 1 8 21 full gold runes with janna in s3. Mostly as a counter pick or farm lanes. Worked really bad when team was crap with so low dmg =)
Ps. If team is crap and you can tell from the talk in select a lot of the time. Go teemo support ^^
On November 28 2013 08:54 cLutZ wrote: Isn't W's range a little low for trading?
It's low for poking. But this is a reactive trade we are talking about. Getting in range isn't an issue any more. Plus it's not like you're not fast enough to get in range with a w max.
I still wanna see some proof that this method works. Got any replays?
On November 28 2013 08:48 Zanno wrote: there are certain janna lanes where w max is fine
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting
Cool, which? Like i said 2 times already, i do not see this working against Zyra/Thresh/Blitz/Leona/Annie, they should punish you real hard for trying to trade in low range.
I will see what I have on Monday but I am out of town for the holiday. No guarantees because lol replay had been throwing an error and I had to turn it off. everything will be season 3 if I have them.
Besides the sona one you already watched I have only
Already uploaded. But nothing else would be available until at least Monday. And no guarantees on volume or value.
Edit: when I made these I was doing it to show how people of all skill levels make mistakes in various games and provide a bit of help for some people who are not as skilled at the game. These were my comments for the second link which was played chronologically first. It's around plat 4 mmr.
2:00 Corki disco's at level 1. I did not know this and we lost the fight because of it. We might have actually won that if i did not realize it. You will notice that I basically ignore taric early. This is because if taric wants to fight at level 1 i am happy to let him. We should not have a problem winning this fight. Basically Corki doesn't blow barrier. Trist blows Barrier and Taric Exhausts.
We probably should have hard Taric after this too, but his timely stun and flash saved him.
3:14 I back ping and follow taric out of the lane. It would be 3v2 or worse, but i could probably save j4 if he needed seconds to get over the dragon pit. When he comes back i keep auto attack harass to ensure he is low and has to spend mana healing.
3:34 corki should have followed me here. The creeps can wait we would have killed or pushed trist out of lane.
4:23 placing this ward is not a bad call because it prevents Taric from stunning me from his bush. Trist auto pushes and so will tend to come to that bush anyway. By pinking his pink I ensure that Taric cannot push the wave and take bush control. If the lane was going to push the other way, it might be a waste to clear that ward.
4:28 this is a really good engage by Taric. Corki is out of position and Taric hit level 2. Notice how i go straight for Trist. This lines my Q up to hit both Tristana and Taric. However my timing was off and I only hit trist with it. I escape with 6 HP. Corki's turn was really ill advised here. He potentially could have gotten out since Taric/Trist would have had to chase through creeps.
5:28 Shield the tower if its taking damage. Every little bit helps. I did a bad job of prepping these for Corki. Turned out he did not need the assistance.
5:43 Trist should have gone back, or Taric should not have. She is doing nothing here. So i just zone her out of XP. I wait a bit before engaging/poking because i want her to be low when taric gets to lane. That way the same problem she had when it was 2v1 taric has. Doesn't quite work but that is the idea. Taric levels heal first which negates my ability to do this (and to be harassed out). A good choice on his part to deal with the fact that I am ranged and can counter his engage
7:20 we should have won this fight. They are a level up but trist is low. Corki does not respect taric's damage and stands right next to him. I have to ensure that trist gets low enough so she has to pull out, but its early, so corki still can't trade with taric yet. Corki disconnects here and i turn onto trist. Taric is not a threat as his abilities are on CD. Trist's jump is down. Items aren't an issue because trist has not bought yet. I probably should not have turned that though
10:00 I warn J4 that we can't see trist. This facecheck was really really dumb. I also didn't have wards and should have bought one on last back. I was mashing R and we might have turned that had i got it off. Turned out OK, but should have waited for j4 to come.
12:00 We might have won this if corki did not w out of my ult. Either way, i had to flash the barrel to escape. We stay because we see J4 coming. Tower is on taric, so i slow him. Ward into the bush so we can see the chase. Stop auto attacking so that I don't get the kill. I should have popped a potion at the start of this. Might have been able to get Gragas if we didn't. We leave at the end because Zyra is really amazingly big atm. J4 called for dragon but taking the bottom tower would be a better call. We are all low and towers don't fight back when you have creeps.
14:00 We traded really well here. This allows us to take dragon control, gets me three ward kills [off of J4's well placed pink]. Notice how when i go back in to kill the last ward, Jarvan does not enter the pit? This keeps his location a mystery, lets us do Dragon because Nid's trap reveal Gragas at blue. I should not have pushed the wave after this at 15:30
17:30 Trist is out of position. Hard engage. I almost get out of this by fail my flash. Notice i when i am high HP i position myself between trist and corki but when i am low HP i position corki between me and trist? Trist wants to kill corki at the start so i stop that. Trist wants to kill me at the end so i only present corki. I attempt to use the wall to deny vision. Either way, good trade. 2 for 1, ADC still alive to farm
19:20 We got this pick on Taric/Trist because of the vision we had(and they didn't). I probably could have ulted Gragas into the wall but the spacing was suspect. Ult gives us the HP buffer to contest dragon wards safely. I know Taric placed one when he came up so I make sure to clear it. I get another pink when i go back because i know that taric should be getting one after seeing my clear his.
21:00 this fight was a huge throw by them. No vision in tri, knows people are close because just saw them at dargon. Walks to tri anyway. Trist gets caught, taric walks into try anyway. Zyra plays this really well by abandoning them and taking mid/killing Nid.
23:00 i baited Gragas into this. I knew he was behind me and also knew where Zyra/Vlad were. No need to use abilities until he is nice and vulnerable. Note that by standing next to him, i body block his body slam so he cannot cross the wall. He still should have got out, but knocked Nid the wrong way
24:30 i should have ulted way earlier so i could have healed him. I was in 2v2 mentality and going for trist though. Both of us die because of it
26:20 Zyra still does a lot of damage. This is a great trade for us though. Corki's w was brilliant
27:00 Oh god those Garen tower hitting animations
General Note: So at this point I am 100% going for Banner of Command because i feel like we can win/kite 4v4 or 5v5 engages long enough that we will win the game with a split push. Banner gives us two splits
27:55 2 man no smite dragon. Fucks Given: 0
29:20 Don't Chase. Especially the highest damage member of the enemy team when she has strong turn\
30:00 Only scared about lack of baron wards because we have vision of the enemy team other times. I get oracles very late this game as a note[largely because our objective control did not require it]. In this fight i tried to ult to heal jarvan. He died too fast. We also did very good on taking objectives after this marginal team fight win.
We get lucky with the disco at the end but that game was over by then
On November 27 2013 17:57 Goumindong wrote: Maxing shield gives you 40 shield and 10 ad bonus. An Ad bonus which you generally wont be able to use because you lose the ad when the shield is down and the shield will almost guaranteed to be burst through until you have ap. Additionally the skill costs more.
Maxing Zephyr gives you 55 damage per level. It gives you 2% move speed per level. It gives your slow another 4% slow per level. It reduces the cd of the ability by 1'second per level (down to 8). You trade better with w because of the increased base damage, move speed which let's you dictate engagements easier, a slow which helps you generate picks and prosecute trades which end up favorable, and cdr to do it faster.
You don't actually get 55 damage per level from W due to enemy MR, right?
An ADC with no magic resist masteries and flat MR glyphs (standard) gets a base of 42 MR at level 1. If you run magic pen marks (because you love maxing W) you're still dealing with about 34 MR which is about 25.5% reduction. That means until you get your MR pen item (if you even get it before the end of laning phase) you are actually getting 41 damage per level on said ADC which is much much closer to shield's scaling.
And it gets worse from here. If you are unfortunate enough to not be able to hit that ADC with your W, that tanky melee support will have more (*much* more in some cases) MR than that due to masteries, MR glyphs, MR gain/level and MR from abilities. Or that enemy AP support that gets chalice at minute 5 or something also has a bonus 25 MR.
On the other hand maxing shield gives you 40 shield per level that is always 100% effective no matter how tanky your opponents are.
Not that I disagree with other things (the increased snare and movespeed) but I don't like the claim that you get 55 damage per level from W when the in-game damage you actually inflict is going to be much closer to E scaling.
I mean, its not really worth arguing that much anymore. Janna basically used to hang her hat on an absurdly high SoloQ winrate. Her pro play viability has been almost nonexistent since S3 started (and really since her S2 nerfs).
Her "changes" (nerfs) going into S4, plus the ascension of the likes of Annie(who was already a good support), Taric, and Leona due to S4 changes is just adding insult to injury in all environments for Janna.
On November 28 2013 08:48 Zanno wrote: there are certain janna lanes where w max is fine
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting
Cool, which? Like i said 2 times already, i do not see this working against Zyra/Thresh/Blitz/Leona/Annie, they should punish you real hard for trying to trade in low range.
you listed 4 skillshot champions, two of which can be interrupted by janna q and totally shut down, and one of which has a skillshot that is relatively difficult to hit. the only way they can punish you is if you make a mistake and get hit, you have passive rocket shoes, if you dont have a fast trigger finger its your fault. then you list a super squishy ap support that should actually be the target you feed off at early levels, and then you listed the current op fotm who beats everybody.
the key is you have draven backup. why would you ever allin draven during lane phase he will always win because he is draven. why would you bother giving him a little extra ad when instead you can skill to chunk the enemy for like 200 dmg then allow draven to get an extra 3 autos in and then have 400 movespeed to get in position so they cant even flash the q that lets draven secure the kill
if you were to go vayne/janna and max w you are going to have a bad time because vayne cant do a lot to follow up with you, but on man mode adcs, w max is strong
On December 05 2013 13:20 cLutZ wrote: I mean, its not really worth arguing that much anymore. Janna basically used to hang her hat on an absurdly high SoloQ winrate. Her pro play viability has been almost nonexistent since S3 started (and really since her S2 nerfs).
Her "changes" (nerfs) going into S4, plus the ascension of the likes of Annie(who was already a good support), Taric, and Leona due to S4 changes is just adding insult to injury in all environments for Janna.
She still seems fine to me. Lee Sin/Shyvana/Rengar/Kha'Zix/Skarner just to mention a few highly benefit from the movement speed bonus and scales surprisingly well with shield if fed.
@Zanne
When i wrote that i took into account what Gourmin said about being able to outplay your opponent. I've seen Leona picks where Janna was already picked, because that person probably believed that he could outplay Janna and not care for the Q's. W-max seems decent if you have an AD Carry with a strong early game i agree with that after testing it out a bit
you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I've always had trouble stopping her E after I moved to the East Coast, was easier out West. Also, Leona players in the Janna matchup won't pre-emptively use E much anyways.
On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
is that why you speculated totally on why they picked leona without providing any indication you are doing anything other htan guessing that he's just arrogant?
Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
is that why you speculated totally on why they picked leona without providing any indication you are doing anything other htan guessing that he's just arrogant?
I asked them, i didn't guess. And yes, I've seen it more than once.
On December 07 2013 10:48 killerdog wrote: Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
Seems similar to what i've been doing ^^ Still sort of sucks that the 5% cdr from utility sort of gets wasted this way, but it makes good use early-game i suppose.
On December 07 2013 10:48 killerdog wrote: Wait, for the argument about masteries, what items are you buying if you need cdr? I've just been starting coin -> shurelya's and getting athenes as my first big item. 40% cdr there already.
The active on the new shurelya item just feels really strong combined with the passive aoe move speed increase, (you're entire team can just bumrush them with no warning.) So I don't really see a reason not to get it, and grail is just generally awesome.
True. I was writing this before Targon was nerfed. If you're going to Talisman then you don't really need the CDR from runes. In Season 3 (and early season 4 testing) i was going Morello into Codex. I am not sure that is optimal anymore with the changes to targon and the inability of Janna to get much out of the Frost Queen item (she already has a massive slow at that range and she doesn't harass well enough in lane to justify it unless you're playing against a Melee support who doesn't have all-in potential on you)
In Season 3 i would be pretty comfortable with picking Janna into almost any lane and running a W max just because of the pick/turnaround potential it affords. But i don't think i would do that (or pick Janna at all) without an ADC who has already counterpicked the enemy ADC and will almost assuredly have an easy laning phase. Even if the enemy picks Leona*.
*If the enemy has Leona and a bully ADC and your ADC is not a bully you might be able to stop the all in from Leona but you still probably won't save your ADC's laning phase.
All of that being said, I am not sure when to pick Janna now. Previously i could pick her to defend against assassins and force peel for my ADC. But the new strength of AP or Tanky supports(and the weakening of assassins) means that peeling isn't nearly as strong because you have to do it so much more and longer. If your ADC doesn't win lane or you have to shield someone who isn't your ADC then your team fight DPS/tank will suffer. I mean 100 AD is a big deal but its nothing compared to a Tibbers.
If i am going to have a rough laning phase then i need a support who can fight in lane because the gold advantage from winning lane is more important. If i am going to have an easy laning phase because my ADC is strong then i might as well grab a support who can threaten an AoE all in with the increased amount of gold which winning lane provides.
On December 07 2013 00:18 Slayer91 wrote: you pick Leona after janna because you don't notice janna was picked or you didn't know janna Q can stop her E or you can't play any other supports or maybe you don't want to play a squishy support even if you can't win lane OR you think you can outplay her that's a pretty big range of cases and not just "cockiness"
I was talking strictly regarding outplay, not that other bullshit. Stop doing drugs.
sponkz trying to usurp my posting position by shooting verbal arrows at me but im so far out of his range i can just see them well enough to have a chuckle
Wow, I just read the op from 4 years ago. Not sure why green elixir before blue was recommended.:D
Anyway, I completely forgot Zeke's. It's a great item on a support who always stays around her carries, ie. not potentially diving into 5 enemies, like thresh or leo. I usually only get it if it's a 2v8 game, where me and my adc has to carry the world, or when we get superfed bot and I actually remember that this item exists. Howewer, with the addition of ardent censer, I feel like it fulfills the "I'm ahead, let me get a snowball-y item" spot, since both of them are boosting your adc, but ardent is an awesome item on it's own for you.
Now I'd only buy Zeke if most of our team can benefit the aura, or if my adc is useless, but we have at least two ppl who benefits from the plus ad and lifesteal, and not so much from the attack speed of censer. In theory it could be an awesome burst of power, if you finish Zeke's just when your adc finished his IE and PD/statikk, but I never seen it.
I don't know, the more I write about it, the more sub-optimal it seems to me, haha.
The problem with Zekes for Janna is that there isn't a point where she can buy it, where she can't buy something that makes her more powerful right now instead of waiting for what is, essentially, a 1600 gold combine cost on top of an item that isn't even that great for her.
Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great
Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it.
On August 02 2014 06:34 Goumindong wrote: The problem with Zekes for Janna is that there isn't a point where she can buy it, where she can't buy something that makes her more powerful right now instead of waiting for what is, essentially, a 1600 gold combine cost on top of an item that isn't even that great for her.
Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great
Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it.
Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs.
And the plus movement speed does not warrant not buying boots. Technically, even with your two movement speed passive, you could delay booots by a lot, especially lvl 2 boots, but why not make an advantage of them? In s3 I used to not buy boots for a long time, but the cost efficency is just too good to give up. And if we are at boots, I'm gonna try going with cd boots again, now that Talisman does not have that ridiculous 20%cdr. In s3 I loathed mobi boots on Janna (some Jannas took it as staple though), always felt overkill, howewer in s4 with all the free cdrs, Ionian was really lackluster, and ninja/mercury were kinda situational, so mobies remained.
REWQ all the time, W has actual utility scaling, not just cd reduction. You couldn't even utilize the reduced cd on Q, since extended, drawn out teamfights skirmishes usually only happen later in the game, and you would probably run out of mana pretty fast anyway, unless you always go heavy manaregen.
Also, Q-s main usage is to interupt jumps, interrupt fast initiations like talisman active, or cancel channels, so basically you have to use it well in that exact time. If you can't interrupt it and the enemy already sticked to the one you want to protect, a maxed w is much more useful. If you miss your q on the Kennen who just used e, even a 3sec cd on q would not be enough. If you miss your Q on a ww ult, he won't care if you have 8 sec cd on it, or 1 year. And so on...
Even if you go the ap route, riot gutted Qs damage, so you will deal much more damage with w.
Edit: if you want to max w, then you should reevaluate where the game stands at lvl 7, so you can decide whether you should max it out or leave it at lvl 3 and start maxing e.
On August 06 2014 11:33 Sufficiency wrote: I haven't gotten boots on Janna for a VERY long time.
After the Talisman changes, I think there is absolutely no points for Janna to buy boots anymore.
How's that? You get 20 movement speed from an item that costs 2200 gold, while others can spend 325 to get plus 25 ms. Not to mention you are willing to skip on: - an additional plus 105 movement speed to be an absolute terror on the map and be everywhere, or - an additional 15% cooldown reduction which is the cheapest way to get the most cdr as early as possible, which +5% masteries sets you up for a rounded number, so you can go for a 10% cdr item to reach cap, or even reach the cap with cdr boots, talisman, masteries and runes. - plus 25 armor and 10% reduced damage from AAs, for those games when xins coming from the jungle, irelias from the top, and you keep skirmishing with the enemy adc
Delaying boots is bad, delaying tier 2 boots is so-so. If you skip your boots for "a VERY long time", you basically miss out on the opportunity to get ahead of everyone in terms of mobility. You also have two skills which increase movement speed, so it synergizes well with your kit, you get much more for your money. It's dangerous as well, since if you use your w, then you are chained there, because everyone has at least tier 1 boots if not 2, and if you are losing the fight you are dead. If not having boots ever make you consider using a w, it's also bad, because you not only missed out on a great opportunity, it also made your options limited.
It's not an excuse if you go Ardent or Twin Shadows, because both are % movement speed, and they don't have the flat ms to support.
As Day9 used to say, "if you are ahead, get more ahead!". Janna has an edge over everyone with her ms boosts, so the logical step should be to make advantage of it, and not treat it as a "325 gold pocket money for everything but boots".
On August 02 2014 06:34 Goumindong wrote: The problem with Zekes for Janna is that there isn't a point where she can buy it, where she can't buy something that makes her more powerful right now instead of waiting for what is, essentially, a 1600 gold combine cost on top of an item that isn't even that great for her.
Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great
Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it.
Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs.
And the plus movement speed does not warrant not buying boots. Technically, even with your two movement speed passive, you could delay booots by a lot, especially lvl 2 boots, but why not make an advantage of them? In s3 I used to not buy boots for a long time, but the cost efficency is just too good to give up. And if we are at boots, I'm gonna try going with cd boots again, now that Talisman does not have that ridiculous 20%cdr. In s3 I loathed mobi boots on Janna (some Jannas took it as staple though), always felt overkill, howewer in s4 with all the free cdrs, Ionian was really lackluster, and ninja/mercury were kinda situational, so mobies remained.
(Never tried berzerker though...~~~)
With Talisman, Censor, and Spooky i manage 478 move speed before the Talisman Active. 549 during the active. Boots 1 takes that to 496. Boots 5 to 551, 643 active. Boots 2 510.
At 480 move speed I am already faster than the rest of my team by far. I find much more speed isn't that valuable.
Delaying boots really isn't that bad. Because you're fast enough and you get marginal speed bonuses as you construct spooky/censor and put points into W.
Basically, how does the extra move speed get you more ahead when you can spend the money on other things?
You say that Talisman's 20 move speed isn't as good as the 25 from Boots.... yea but it also comes with the Talisman active, the bonus HP/5, MP/5, and 10% CDR. Getting the talisman active 325 gold sooner is pretty valuable.
On August 02 2014 06:34 Goumindong wrote: The problem with Zekes for Janna is that there isn't a point where she can buy it, where she can't buy something that makes her more powerful right now instead of waiting for what is, essentially, a 1600 gold combine cost on top of an item that isn't even that great for her.
Censor isn't that great, but its build up is pretty nice (AP, CDR, Move Speed, Mana in bite sized packages). Zekes has similar power to Censor (unless you're buffing > 2 people who get a lot out of it) but doesn't have any build up. The only stat that it has that is really core for Janna is the 10% CDR. HP? Not that great
Also, Janna doesn't need boots anymore that talisman has 20 move speed on it.
Mmm, I disagree on Censor, it's a reaally nice addition for your shield, which is already awesome on adcs.
No, the bonus to the shield is pretty weak. Its not nearly as strong as the bonus Zekes gives. I mean, its nice, but its not that nice.
Not that I don't build censor a lot. Its got a really good build path from the two of the three items i want to build all the time (aether wisp, codex, and Idol) but its combine is pretty lackluster and the only reason i build it a lot is because well, nothing else to upgrade those items into. Better than it was granted but still pretty lackluster.
Edit: I am saying that i build censor all the time, because it builds out of things i want to buy for marginal power increases. Things which have move speed and AP, or CDR, or MP/5 and CDR. But the actual item itself isn't that strong, and if i could trade the passive for more move speed or AP i probably would.
[Disclaimer: I'm reaaaalllyy tired, and pre-reading my post made me realize I'm kinda all over the place and I even answered the same thing (why you should not mention that those items give other stats as well) twice, with 2+2 answers, but I'm too tired to edit it together, I believe it's still understandable, though pretty funny)
I find that there are basic flaws in your reasoning behind why should Janna's skip boots. It sounds convincing reading it through, but if you dissect it...
On August 06 2014 13:33 Goumindong wrote: With Talisman, Censor, and Spooky i manage 478 move speed before the Talisman Active. 549 during the active. Boots 1 takes that to 496. Boots 5 to 551, 643 active. Boots 2 510.
So investing 6800 gold into these items give you 479 ms. I just hit up a custom Janna game (taking both movespeed masteries in the utility tree), bought a moby boots for 800 gold and I have 475 ms without any points in w. You get 4 more ms if you invest 6000 gold more. Now you could say "hey, this is just as deceiving as my arguement, those items give a shitton more stats", which is true, but here comes another two problems: 1. They cost a freaking 6800 gold, and they basically make you a 3 item support (plus sightstone), so by the time you get those you are deeeeep into mid game in match which you are most probably winning. 2. Twin Shadows is situational at best, it's pretty shitty if you are behind, unless rare scenarios, like vs rengar or akali. Just for comparison, Deathcap costs 900 more gold, Mikael 50 more gold, Locket 400 more gold, Frozen heart 200 more gold. All of these items are generally much much better buys than Twin Shadows, the latter three being extremely benefical in certain games. Rushing Ardent is fine, it is a great second item after Talisman, and you can usually get away with it. I would not say it is a staple 2nd item though. Anyway, counting Twin Shadows into the equation is kinda pointless, but let's see some more testing.
My base ms without w: 374 boots: 401 (325 gold) boots+talisman- 422 (2525 gold) ardent+talisman: 422 (4400 gold) boots+ardent - 427 (2525 gold) boots+ardent+tali - 446 (4725 gold)
Base ms with 2 points of zephyr (so basically when you hit lvl 8): 394 boots: 421 (325 gold) boots+tali:440 (2525 gold) boots+ardent: 447 (2525 gold) ardent+tali: 442 (4800 gold) boots+ardent+tali: 467 (4725 gold)
With maxed W my base ms is 414 boots: 439 (325 gold) boots+tali: 458 (2525 gold) tali+ardent+twin: 478 (6800 gold) moby boots: 502 (800 gold) Any other tier 2 boots except swiftness: 458 (1000 gold for Ninja/Ionian, 1200 gold for Mercury)
Now I won't make any trivia-worthy conclusion that X combo is Y% better gold wise, all I wanted to show that boots are awesome on Janna, and I even wronged myself, tier 2 boots are pretty huge too, unless your team is failing super hard.
And don't say "but Volband, moby boots only gives ms, while [this item] gives this and that", because: 1. 85% (secret formula, don't ask!!!) of your strength comes from your own kit, and your kit only worths anything if you are actually there to use it. Be everywhere, help everyone, react to everything. "WHAT IS JANNA DOING TOP WTF" - that's something you can't measure in gold. 2. The only item among these (Tali-Ardent-Twin) which can greatly impact most of the games is Talisman, while I already mentioned three other items (Frozen-Mikael-Aegis/Locket) which can be better buys, even though they don't give any ms.
My conclusion here is that even if you rush every game for a sub-optimal build order to keep up with your ms advantage - with which you should still not be able to capitalize on your innate ms steroids and kit, since it costs a shitton and takes too much time to finish -, you would be still better off just paying 800 gold for mobis, or the very very very least 325 gold for regular boots. And I did not even mention how great distortion and captain enchantments are, both which requires tier 2 boots.
Reading it through again I did disregard the bonuses from pieces, but 1. a 800 gold item is already beating out three complete one in this contest, so comparing it to their pieces is meh 2. you should always start with the cdr pieces of the items, which means the mini ms boosts are delayed anyhow
On August 06 2014 13:33 Goumindong wrote: No, the bonus to the shield is pretty weak. Its not nearly as strong as the bonus Zekes gives. I mean, its nice, but its not that nice.
One shield with Censor won't change the world, yes, but having the buff 0-24 on your adc in later stages of the game is not something anyone should discard, especially since it's worth is increased by your adc's damage and crit chance, which will only get higher and higher with time. But yes, it's a nice item overall for J, even if we just look at the stats
Really the only compelling argument for getting boots on Janna is to get Captains/Homeguard. Any movespeed over 480 is wasted as it starts to decay (ie 480+100ms isn't 580) and at 480 you will already be zooming.
On August 07 2014 13:21 miicah wrote: Really the only compelling argument for getting boots on Janna is to get Captains/Homeguard. Any movespeed over 480 is wasted as it starts to decay (ie 480+100ms isn't 580) and at 480 you will already be zooming.
With Janna you are bound to exceed 480, it's nothing terrible, no one aims to 580 or anything, just to get fast, well, fast, and nothing will help you more regarding this goal, than getting boots.
On August 07 2014 04:58 Volband wrote: So investing 6800 gold into these items give you 479 ms. I just hit up a custom Janna game (taking both movespeed masteries in the utility tree), bought a moby boots for 800 gold and I have 475 ms without any points in w. You get 4 more ms if you invest 6000 gold more. Now you could say "hey, this is just as deceiving as my arguement, those items give a shitton more stats", which is true, but here comes another two problems [ed: cut for space]
Yes but i don't need 480 move speed at level 5 what the shit am i going to use it for? I need only slightly more move speed than my ADC, its why no boots Janna worked in Season 3. I get 390 from just coin upgrade, i get 409 with Talisman (both with 1 point of W) and 497 with the active. I add an Aether wisp and I am at 426. And sure i can spend 800 gold for mobo's to get up super fast immediately and i can run back to lane with them and dink around zoned off the creep wave because my carry isn't there yet.
Or i can also get incrementally faster while working to powerful actives like Twin Shadows. I should actually be a bit faster than those breakpoints because that is with only one point of W when realistically you get your second at 8 and third at 10 at the minimum
All of these items are generally much much better buys than Twin Shadows, the latter three being extremely benefical in certain games. Rushing Ardent is fine, it is a great second item after Talisman
Ardent Censor is 40 AP for 2200 gold. Twin Shadows is 80 AP for 2400 gold. Deathcap is 1200 gold more than TS, not 900.
I don't know how you can say that Censor is a good rush item but Shadows is not considering that shadows has a better unique(especially the earlier you get it) and just as much CDR and nearly as much move speed but twice the AP
If you're buying Mobi boots I am getting twin shadows(or censor) 800 gold earlier than you are. If you're getting Mobi boots I am getting talisman 800 gold earlier than you.
Basically as Janna i want to build move speed, AP, and CDR all at the same time. I want to do it in 600 to 800 gold increments, so i ignore DFG and deathcap unless i get very lucky on a back. I only want Mikaels if they have CC i need to prevent. Otherwise i want to make picks. I want to be fast enough to lead my team, but not so fast that they can't keep up
The earlier i can get my core team movement speed items (Talisman) and Scounting/pick tools (Twin Shadows) without sacrificing CDR
One shield with Censor won't change the world, yes, but having the buff 0-24 on your adc in later stages of the game is not something anyone should discard, especially since it's worth is increased by your adc's damage and crit chance, which will only get higher and higher with time. But yes, it's a nice item overall for J, even if we just look at the stats
25% attack speed isn't that much. Consider the carry with the lowest AS in the game and phantom dancer, it adds 10% total attack speed for her. Nice but potentially not even usable as she attack moves. It mean its not bad, i buy the item, its just not amazing
edit: I mean look, if i am going to buy boots on Janna its going to be Mercs, or Swifties (maybe CDR but then i've got other itemization issues since the core purchases i want all have CDR) and then get captain. But the extra 50 base on mobi's is wasted on Janna
Janna with 21 points in utility, 1 rank in zephyr and nomad's medallion has about 395 MS which is as good as an adc with boots2 and zeal and probably higher than most mids with boots 2. And it will only gets better with more ranks in zephyr and talisman. Is extra MS bad? Well sure it never hurts. Does it really brings an edge? I'm not good enough to judge.
On August 06 2014 12:03 Volband wrote: As Day9 used to say, "if you are ahead, get more ahead!". Janna has an edge over everyone with her ms boosts, so the logical step should be to make advantage of it, and not treat it as a "325 gold pocket money for everything but boots".
With that same logical step you would rush frozen mallet on Ashe every game because she has an autoattack slow edge on everyone. Same thing with sustain: if you already have good sustain from your kit, you often delay/avoid buying extra sustain.
On August 07 2014 15:48 NpG)Explosive wrote: Janna with 21 points in utility, 1 rank in zephyr and nomad's medallion has about 395 MS which is as good as an adc with boots2 and zeal and probably higher than most mids with boots 2. And it will only gets better with more ranks in zephyr and talisman. Is extra MS bad? Well sure it never hurts. Does it really brings an edge? I'm not good enough to judge.
On August 06 2014 12:03 Volband wrote: As Day9 used to say, "if you are ahead, get more ahead!". Janna has an edge over everyone with her ms boosts, so the logical step should be to make advantage of it, and not treat it as a "325 gold pocket money for everything but boots".
With that same logical step you would rush frozen mallet on Ashe every game because she has an autoattack slow edge on everyone. Same thing with sustain: if you already have good sustain from your kit, you often delay/avoid buying extra sustain.
Does Ashe have to ward the map from deep into enemy jungle, to baron and dragon, constantly allocatng the wards to grant vision the currently most important objectives? No she doesn't, she likes the nice attack speed from berzerker's and the ms is good enough so she can kite in teamfighths if someone peels for her.
Does Ashe want to be everywhere on the map? No, she wants to farm, to have items, to be relevant. She won't just randomly rush into a skirmish around top lane when there are tons of creeps bot.
Moby boots is generally considered the playmaker boots, and it's true whether you buy it on supports, or assassins or junglers. It certainly gives you an enormous edge, if you can utilize it. It is a waste if you plan to stand next to your adc (after laning phase) for 5 straight minutes as he afk arms, goes back to base, then return to afk farm. Your job is not to get 6 items as soon as possible, your job is to support your team. The most flashy example of mobi boots users are Leona, Thresh and Blitz, because they usually net kills with it, while the likes of Janna "just" denies or help securing these; still, both are sponsored by mobies.
I remember in s3, when supports were broke, many (especially Jannas, almost every high elo game I spectated, Jannas were rushing it) just rushed mobility boots after the gp items. It was the cheapest item to influence the game with. I myself was an Ionian guy, but I bought it with the same goal in mind: cheapest cdr and mobility ---> have a greater impact. Getting to 40% cdr was a bitch.
I would not compare the innate ms boosts of Janna to the likes of Ashe with her slow. Her slow eventually becomes godlike (edit: and Ashe has the luxury to wait, as Janna you are already really strong at lvl 6, you just need to utilize it), and all she needs is actual damage to make it work. Also, I'm pretty sure frozen mallet does not cost 800 gold, and especially not 325. Sustain is the same: gets better with damage. Movement speed has nothing to go hand in hand with. You are either fast or you are not.
If you want to get to 478 ms with buying talisman, ardent and twin shadows(again, by far not the best item) , by the time you finish them, no one will care how fast you are, the room for plays you could have done if you had the extra mobility are long gone, you are grouping up, looking for teamfights. The whole point of mobility boots is to create"... and then suddenly Janna" scenarios. Ionian, Nina T and Mercury still give you a pretty good mobility for their cost, while also adding more presence for you, especially the former two. Mercury is much more defensive, and implies that you don't want to get caught because they probably have a good pick comp.
And these are the tier 2 boots, I really can't wrap my head around how spending 325 gold on an item which instantly gets 4 movement speed modifiers is not a good buy.
So mobi boots makes plays but talisman and twin shadows do not?
Man what?
Look, unless you get your mobi boots before you get your coin, talisman does not cost 2200 gold. It costs 1335 gold a mere 500 gold more than Mobis. But after you have your talisman the need for mobis is almost ended due to its powerful active
Please don't compare to S3, support itemisation sucked (got brown boots, BEST GAME EVER!). The point we are trying to make is that the 1k gold you spend on mobis is money that could go into other items that synergise with Jannas kit, not just add on a bunch more MS because you want to zoom zoom more.
Yeah sorry but I must chip into this discussion. I think there's diminishing value on MS once you get to a certain extent. 480 seems to be the easy number because you're fighting less and less value for every point in MS after that, but I'll side with Talisman being a better item for Janna than mobis + whatever you want with that 500g in almost every situation. Twin Shadows isn't a great item on Janna though in my opinion, because she benefits more from other items (FH, Mikael, Locket) built situationally relevant of course. Her ability to disrupt team fights is her true strength, while protecting everyone on her team from certain death, all while zipping around and making sure her team has vision of a fight before they go into it. That's at least how I play her.
@Goumindong First of all, I never recommended mobis before talisman, I only said it does not replace it. And how is an ms boost for a few seconds ends the need of mobility boots? You speed yourself up for warding, or what? Talisman is a situational item, if you need that extra boost to get there or to get ouf of there. By no means it replaces an item that gives you the power to be everywhere, everytime. Twin Shadows is situational as well, the only exception is that while collapsing or fleeing is a very recurring theme during a game, using ts to catch someone otherwise he could escape is not at all. And I should sticky it to my every post that it's a sub-par item. I absolutely love it in the rare instances, when needed, but if you just keep buying it because "hey, look, shadows, how cool is that?" you should rewatch your replays and count how many times was its' active really useful. Like, how many times it actually mattered. TS is an item you either need fast, or you don't need at all, you can just spice your later build up if you prefer it. It's most useful if your team has no initiation for some reason and you desperately need picks, or versus certain assassins.
@miicah Mobis cost 800 gold, there's not a single item in the game you can change the world with. Even items like frozen heart or dcap (referring to the shield's ad boost here) actually scale with OTHERS progression. The best early item is probably aegis and locket wth it's flat mr, since it's a great equalization for haunting guises and/or mpen boots. And I don't see s3 a bad example; every support was gold starving, so high elo jannas could think like this: "If I don't spend on boots, I can still match other's ms while getting actual items!" Also, mobis were more expensive back then.
@Zdrastochye There are diminishing values, yes, someone already mentioned it as well. That's why I don't encourage anyone to run ms runes, or rush all the ms items. Howewer, as I said, it's not a Talisman or Mobi arguement. I side with Talisman AND tier 2 boots (it does not have to be mobis, but most of the time it is the best). You'll have 500 ms with lvl 2 zephyr, tali and mobis instead of the what, 508? I think it can be swallowed.
And yes, her team fight presence is her true strength, but unless you play aram, you won't see constant teamfights, you will be zipping around, helping out, as you perfectly described. Now, what's the fastest way to ensure you can zip around the fields of soloq, where random shit happens all the time, and you could (and you should) mean the difference? Boots.
So, aside from that 1 Janna game from Xpecial, where I guess he wanted to test where she stands now after the buffs (expect Janna in play-offs, hm-hm??), everyone went with tier 2 boots, and even the Janna, who only went mobis because he went spellthief, he mostl ikely would went for a t2 boots (maybe mobis, who knows) anyway, since he obviously wanted THE speed. Ignoring the Jannas, you can see how favorable mobis among supports. I don't want to recheck, but I'm pretty sure most of them have movement speed runes for the likes of Thresh and Leona, so they are not just compensating, they actually want to be everywhere. Not ignoring Jannas you can see that all of them goes for tier 2 boots pretty early.
What I see is that a Leona or Thresh without ms quints and any point in utility (I don't have time right now to check, and I suck at math so I won't even try it without being ingame haha) will have 440 ms, so let's say it's 455 with the utility tree being used. With Janna you have 440 ms with boots+tali and 2 points in zephyr, 458 with 5 points. So basically, you match their mobis with tier 1 boots (when you'll have maxed zephyr, which only comes later). If you refuse to buy even a tier 1 boots, all the other supports will be more mobile than you - except Lulu, though she has whimsy -, the supposed queen of mobility. In exchange for giving up your edge over everyone else, you can get 10% cdr (won't mater if someone is catched, you either save him in 1 go, or he's dead) or some extra %ms, which is shit without base ms, and the 30 ap is kinda worthless, and it's also expensive for what it does. If you choose to buy a tier 2 boots that's not mobis or BOS, you will be faster than any other support with mobis while having a stat advanage, and if you go mobis or BOS, you'll be the ruler of the map (BOS also boosts your teamfights, but don't talk about that naoooo).
I'll challenge you as far to say that movespeed is a situational stat, and you can have too much of it. If you have touched every area you need to, warded it/cleared wards from it and are with your team in the exact place you need to be, any extra ms you have is "wasted" in that stat. Not all games play out the same, and you don't always need to go from bot lane to top lane at 50 ms faster to gain anything from it. It gets REALLY hard to quantify any of this discussion because everything is so dependent on the situation at hand, but there is a limit of usefulness from movespeed. If your team is doing a prolonged siege mid with only a split pusher in another lane that's time that you don't need full use of the mobis until the siege breaks down.
Really all I'm saying is movespeed does have a limit of usefulness, and it's not always useful all of the time, and even in certain matches having less movespeed than you would otherwise (I'm not saying don't get boots, I'm saying don't prioritize ms so highly) isn't detrimental at all. Moving slower to a fight can most certainly be a losing factor in the fight, but once you get to the fight perhaps having an aura or active that you don't have because of rushing mobis could also be a losing factor.
I don't hate movespeed rush, and nobody should deny that mobility is power because you get to influence more fighting/warding, but I don't think it's the quintessential stat in every single game.
I mostly agree with what you say, except that you say mobis could be a losing factor. Your strength is your kit, and the only two items early on that can win/lose fights are aegis and mikael. If they are needed that badly, then assess your resources and get them asap. If you have to sacrifice mobis, or even t1 boots int he case of Janna, then do it. You see, Janna's innate ms boosts are definetly make her capable of sacrifices. Getting ap or a nice ms boost for your shield is definetly not a do-or-die.
It really is unmeasureable how much ms you need to influence games as much you can. Even if we would only look at 1 match, it's still pretty hard to say how much ms you needed exactly. The reason mobis are great is that on average, they are turn out to be great. Soloq is disorganized and while early teamfights happen, it's nothing like in later stages, where you almost exclusively look for tfs.
Usually, bot lane ends the fastest, because it has 2 people to take down turrets, and junglers + midlaners tend to roam there because of drake and the easier kills, after which they can help take towers too. Basically, supports will have the most freedom after the game ends. Adc farms or pushes mid, mid is laning or trying to roam, top is laning or splitpushing, jungler is jungling/counter-jungling. Meanwhile you do whatever the fuck you want, you are the babysitter of 4 people.
The only reason why you should not opt for mobility (not mobis, but mobility in general) if you don't feel you can use it. Like, you went fast tier 2 boots in your last 10 Janna games, 5 of them were mobis and you felt zero difference, then don't do it, but chances are that you did something wrong.
Tier 2 boots skip is debatable, but skipping tier 1 feels really stupid.
Fuck ogn, I had such a good time with people looking down on Janna, and now every sheep will be like "well, you know, if you really think it through, she's pretty damn strong, yeah!". Being a hispter is hard, you know? Anyway, I made a post on another forum just before the ogn game, and I wanted to post it here later, in case someone comes up with an arguement against it, but since Gorilla just had to ruin it - now no one will be like "well ardent is shit you know because reasons!" -, I might as well.
Btw, I like how he shat on us all by going knife, mobis and ardent. Now I want him to play a game with coin and without any boots for extra hilarity.
Right now I just want to talk about Ardent Censer, might chip in later, but overall you can build whatever the hell you want on Janna, it's much more how you play than what you buy on her. My biggest 5cents is to just support your playstyle with the items, and hear out everyone, but don't copy anyone. Nagul says coin is superior, I say the same, but there are still d1/challanger Jannas who go knife 0-24, and arguements can be made that it can be better. Put 10 Janna mains in one room and ask them what boots should you buy and when should you buy them, and I guarantee you shit will get lose. Anyway, not what I want to talk about now...
... but Ardent Censer!
Definetly my favourite item on Janna. I'm playing her utility heavy, sacrificing ap and tankiness. But first, let's get the boring stuff out the way. Is it too costly for what it brings? Let's check it with lolwiki's stats:
40 ap = 870 gold // 25% attack speed on one person = 750 gold // 10 % cdr = 317 gold // 8% movement speed = 476 gold // 10 manaregen = 600 gold // all of this = 3013 gold for an item that costs 2200 gold. You can pretty much remove a whole stat or the passive from it and it would be still cost-efficent. Sure, if it was to give 30 ad instead of 40 ap it would probably worth the same or even more but would be much less useful, so let's take a look at stats individually.
Take into account that I will rate the stats as I rate the item as a whole, according to MY playstyle, which you can decide how close or far it is to you.
10 manaregen: The thing is, after chalice, you will rarely have mana problems with Janna, and when you finish with Mikael's and get some levels, you won't even realise you have a mana bar, unless you rush to 40% cdr. BUT! I don't always rush (or get) chalice, and the forbidden idol recipe for Ardent makes it a viable substitute for early manaregen. Hell, you can even finish Ardent before Talisman, forbidden idol being a common recipe. I love Talisman, but if we have a huge lead bot, sometimes I go for Ardent to cement it. Bigger shield, more damage, aspd boost for my carry and an excuse to spend money on boots a little bit later? O.K.
10% cooldown reduction: Cooldown reduction is probably the only thing I would argue with every Janna across the board being the most vital stat on her. As I said, a Janna player is defined by how well she can handle and utilize Janna. She is difficult, but extremely rewarding, and the more skills you can pull off, well, obviously the better. The nerf to Talisman's cdr means no more cdr cap after just 2 items, so the stat became more valuable. Also, this stat is the worst gold-wise but the best in actual use, which goes to show that you need to go deeper to see how good an item is.
8% movement speed: First of all you play a support, so the more movement speed you have, the better. I always emphasize if you have such a movement speed advantage playing with Janna, you should heavily utilize on that. Others say you should use it to skip boots and get ahead in items. Whoever's theory you like better, this item is actually good for both, as it can substitute boots longer or give you an even bigger edge. Also, with an early Ardent you might switch up your mobis with boots of swiftness. Thanks to the movement speed soft cap you will get more net ms by that and boots of swiftness can be a godlike teamfighting item not to mention how well it synergizes with captain's enchantment. Hah, I always forget to test the bad boy! Anyway, movement is good, mhkay?
40 ability power: +14 damage on instant Q (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!); +~1% movement speed bonus, + 20 damage + 2,4% slow amount on W; + 4 AD, + 28 shield amount on E; +12 health per every half second of channeling per injured teammembers, up to a possible total of +360 health restored. Don't forget that AD worths more if your shielded ally has more attack speed and/or crit chance or if he's an ad assassin. If you plan to get a deathcap, than that 40 ap worths even more. Sure, these numbers are nothing huge, only the extra slow and shield could be noticeable (remember, the harder to break the shield, the longer your base ad buff remains intact!), but don't forget it's just a semi-stat for an item that gives much more, and this 40 ap can be really valuable if you don't plan on buying ap heavy items, and you only have ap from runes, this, and maybe twin shadows, another utility item.
Your heals and shields on another unit grant them 25% attack speed for 6 seconds: Oh boy, here we go now!!! I'm pretty sure the only reason Nagul seem to detest this item is because the aspd passive is overhyped. Man, even if this item did not have this passive, it would still worth it (would be much lower on the priority list), so I find the hate uncalled for. Anyway, talk about it! Before analyzing the attack speed boost, let's talk about the regular mentality of someone who reads this passive. The guy starts thinking how could he give it to the most people, and then makes his conclusion: this item is op on Sona, Janna and Alistar. Rip Thresh. Now, this mentality is flawed for so many reasons. First of all, why the fuck would you want to give it to everyone? "Hey, hey Karthus, here, take this!". Nope. Also, Janna can not reliably keep it up on all of her teammates, Alistar could, but he usually peels for one or initiates, and pretty much Sona is the only one who can always reach her teammates and give it to them with her aoe aura. To me, these people are totally off-tracked. I view it as an item, that let's you focus on someone, and give even more power to him, while trying to keep him alive. It wasn't even a question I will regularly get this item, because I chose the utility playstyle for a reason. I really like the 2v2 at botlane, and I like to keep the bond intact throughout the rest of the game, so unless my adc sucks, we should be able to conquer the world with all the stupid ass extra cc, steroid, shields, get out of jail card attached to my kit. I don't care if we have a full ap comp and no one else benefits the aspd boost. First of all, I'm sticking to my carry (the ad boost on your shield will be just as useless in a full ap comp, so why do you pick Janna if you bitch about Ardent being useless on someone like Karthus in the first place?), and secondly, I have nothing to compensate for. The item worths its' cost, I don't have to sweat blood to keep the aspd boost on 2-3 of my teammates all the time so I can sleep well knowing I put my money to good use. No, as long as you don't play with Ezreal (why the fuck would you pick Janna to an Ezreal anyway...) or Corki, the aspd boost will be great. But what is that 25% aspd anyway? Goldwise it worths 750, but that doesn't tell us much. Your shield without ap is - almost - a BF Sword (1550 gold), now throw this to it and it's 2300 gold put on your adc discounting the shield. Sure, free 2300 gold worth of combat stats just might be useful, but look beyond that! Attack speed scales with critical strike chance and attack damage. Now, only if we had a champion who can give extra ad to her... oh, wait! So Janna has a skill that gives bonus ad and is better if the target has more aspd, and here's an item that gives bonus aspd and is better if the target has more ad. Well, this is clearly a useless piece of junk! But it's not over, champions like Twitch, Varus, Ashe, (useless) Vayne or to name a few bruisers, Jax, Irelia, Gnar (I'm up to date as fuck!), Aatrox has additional benefits from attack speed. Just Imagine the look on the enemy team when that Jax with Trinity, Bork (yeah, btw, any additional aspd to bork users is hella useful as well) and Randuin, Grandmaster's Might active effect, Eye of The Storm's active effect and Ardent Censer's passive effect. Shit is zipzapping around the guy like crazy and I definetly would not want to be the first one to greet him. I trust my abilities to keep someone semi-decent alive, and as long as he can right click, I'm perfectly fine with Ardent Censer. In a serious teamfight I will shield my adc anyway, if I trust him - don't have much choice, haha -, so in my case, there is no such arguement as "but what if you use your shield on xy instead?". Also, with max cdr your shield is on a 6 seconds cooldown. Ardent Censer's aspd boost remains active for 6 seconds. Yeah, infinite ad and aspd boost on someone only killable by retarded champions like Fizz or Vi. Good luck with that! Your ult triggering it for your whole team is cute, but unless you do some clutch mlg play with flash-ult barely reaching your adc who survives a 1v1 with 1 hp, it will remain just cute. If you happen to do it though make a shoutout to me pls!
When I pick Janna I only look at the opponent's teamcomp and my adc. I don't care about the three other picks in our team, unlike when I'm playing Leona for example. Still, in my last Janna games I almost always had at least one other guy that could benefit from my aspd boost as well: 1: Nidalee 2: none 3: Irelia 4: Jax 5: Gnar, Jarvan (unless he built tanky) 6: Warwick, Jax 7: Gangplank 8. none 9: Rengar 10: Nidalee 11: Tryndamere 12: Rengar 13: Shaco, Nidalee
Blah blah, so as you can see, it is quite rare that you can't use it on anyone but your adc, even if you want to neglect Nidalees. But as I said, it should be the absolute last thing you should consider whether you should buy the item or not.
Conclusion? One thing is for sure, this item is nothing close to bad, even with Ezreal or Corki, this item still remains good. Bad for your playstyle? Maybe. Assess how you play, and the answer should be obvious if you want this item or not, but aside from certain teamcomps where Sona could shine with it, this item is the best on Janna, hands down, simply because of how painfully obvious who she should shield almost everytime, whether she's ap or not. Support Lulu comes second because her shield is so useless lategame that she can just spam it on her adc for the aspd boost basically - funnily enough Lulu's passive (which is transferred with her shield) is decent, especially with more aspd, so she's another case where good abilities make each other even better. I hope after 46 Janna games with such nice win ratio you know how you like to and/or want to play her, so you already got an answer to the question whether you should buy it or not.
I think it's pretty obvious that Ardent Sensor is essentially made for Janna. Until such time the Soraka rework comes live, no other support has the tools to utilize the attack speed bonus as well as Janna can.
Ardent sensor fit in pretty well with the style they were playing. And janna is probably the best carrier for it, so why not. I just hope people wont go and pick janna into everything and with every adc unless they are some janna mains. It worked pretty well for them due to the lucian pick and the way they were going to play this out(BT lucian). Janna is strong, but so far she has only been picked under specific circumstances by a single team. Lets see if other teams get interested in the pick and how often she will be picked at worlds.
Take everything i say with a grain of salt, im not a main janna player
On August 30 2014 23:41 Sufficiency wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Ardent Sensor is essentially made for Janna. Until such time the Soraka rework comes live, no other support has the tools to utilize the attack speed bonus as well as Janna can.
Sadly, it's not.
On August 31 2014 00:47 Complete wrote: Who lanes well/synergizes well with janna?
I have a lot of trouble making it through the laning phase with janna...I like playing her though...
Janna stomps lane with: Draven, Caityn
Janna is extremely good with: Varus, Lucian, Miss Fortune, Jinx
Janna is good with: Tristana, Graves, Sivir, Urgot, Ashe
Janna is meh with: Kog, Corki, Twitch
Janna is non-existent with: Ezreal, Vayne
Outside of lane, the best adcs are: Ashe, Tristana, Sivir, Lucian, Caitlyn. You can make prolonged fights with these adcs easily, as they have the kit to chase and kite easily.
You should not lose lane with anyone from the first two tiers.
janna is the 2nd best support to have with vayne after nami. also janna has one of the highest winrates across the board so you can laugh at people that think she is weak. the spammable shield that now scales with AP is ridiculous. tons of D1 and even challenger players that play mejai's janna.
On August 30 2014 23:41 Sufficiency wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Ardent Sensor is essentially made for Janna. Until such time the Soraka rework comes live, no other support has the tools to utilize the attack speed bonus as well as Janna can.
I don't agree completely with that statement. She probably is the best support for the item, but I would say every support that specializes in keeping your carry alive synergizes well with ardent censer.
On August 31 2014 03:04 VayneAuthority wrote: janna is the 2nd best support to have with vayne after nami. also janna has one of the highest winrates across the board so you can laugh at people that think she is weak. the spammable shield that now scales with AP is ridiculous. tons of D1 and even challenger players that play mejai's janna.
At the moment I think Janna and Nami are the strongest supports actually, they have so much presence in lane
On August 31 2014 04:53 VayneAuthority wrote: depends on the lane really. with tristana or vayne or other pure AA'ers (twitch too) then those champs are really good.
with something like lucian or corki you might prefer something like morg or thresh or zilean.
I guess the aggressiveness of the carry needs to be matched, makes sense yeah. But in this age of hypercarries the defensive supports really are ones to keep an eye on for sure!
I highly disagree with the Janna-Vayne synergy. Sure, later on Janna+[insert hypercarry here] are very very strong, but in lane it's shit. Blitz, Thresh, Nami, Lulu, Sona are all better contenders for supporting Vayne. All of these have either a nice mix of harass and sustain, or have high danger potential with the hooks. Blitz hook+e to the wall is the easiest lane for Vayne.
Everything Janna does to Vayne in lane can be done much better by other champions, only Janna's passive is what can be only mimicked by Nami and Sona. Movement speed is great on Vayne for her "get in, do some poke, get out" playstyle. Vayne is highly vulnerable to poke and guess what, so is Janna. Putting two champions in a duo lane with a common weakness is just simply a bad idea. The only lane partner who is worse for Janna is Kog, because he is REALLY vulnerable and his only saving grace is his free w, which is great with eye of the storm, bu that's all. Compare it to an mf with shielded auto-q-auto which is like an instawin for bot, or a simple Lucian auto-e-passive auto-q-passive auto with a shield. Vayne is terrible to utilize the shield early, and her ad ratios sucks, unless she keeps e-ing people to the wall.
My personal problem with Vayne as Janna outside of laning phase is that it really hard to support her. She's agile as fuck, and it's really hard to be in a position where you can utilize your Q and R properly. She just keeps chasing, kiting, tumbling away. It's much easier to support someone like Caitlyn who has a clear pattern of how she should teamfight, or even someone without mobility like Kog, because he just afk soots or do the basic sidestep kiting/orbwalking (inb4 orbwalking is just in dota), so it's much easier to be in a position where you can peel for him. Though it's true that nothing is more satisfying than hunting down people with Vayne, especially if she still has ult. So yeah, overall Vayne-Janna bot is just pure shit, and it's all about the Vayne to outplay her opponents, unlike you are vs some hard initiater supports, and outside of lane they can be brutal, but it's hard on Janna's part.
On August 31 2014 03:04 VayneAuthority wrote: janna is the 2nd best support to have with vayne after nami. also janna has one of the highest winrates across the board so you can laugh at people that think she is weak. the spammable shield that now scales with AP is ridiculous. tons of D1 and even challenger players that play mejai's janna.
At the moment I think Janna and Nami are the strongest supports actually, they have so much presence in lane
Disagree with this as well. It's true that the days of "omg Janna so shit in lane" are gone, and she is not a weak laner at all (really, there are not many weak laners left, with the nerfs to S tier supports and the buffs to the forgotten ones), you still can't compare her to - Nami: Numero uno for sure, and I hope you still remember the mild qq when Nami got some minor NERFS. "omg, so uncalled for, Rito, why do you do this???", while she was shitting on almost everyone and guess what, she still does. Best lane presence hands down. She has everything, she is the most well-rounded support for the laning phase, and probably outside of that as well. Only her ults interaction with Braum's E is what can fuck her up. Sona: What do you need in bot the most? Poke and sustain. What does she have? Poke and sustain. Can adapt to winning and losing lane as well. Morgana: She can keep her adc safe from the other support, she can always harvest the knife money and she has the safest pick potential. Shoot Qs, and eventually you will hit someone, who can go to a toilet break and hope he won't get chunked down too much when he returns. Leona: She and Nami are the best soloq supports. If you want to hard carry, pick one of them (or some ap supports like Zyra and Vel'koz, but I'm talking about the traditional ones now). It is extremely hard to shut her down, and the easiest support to snowball a lane.
Janna-Draven and Janna-Cait can beat these supports, but give her any other adc and the other supports will have a bigger lane presence, than you.
On August 31 2014 14:05 miicah wrote: Also ardent censor wasn't bought until like 40mins+ (from memory)
EDIT: It was around 50mins and he bought it, then they pushed mid and won.
Doesn't change the fact that it was bought, and don't forget that she was with Lucian, not some heavy aa marksman. Trist, Kog, Jinx, Vayne, Cait, Twitch and Ashe are much better suited for Ardent.
Pretty much every janna lane relies on your ad to outplay.Only exception is canceling gapclosers with q.
Ardent censer is fine.Don't see a reason not to get it at some point of the game unless you have corki and nobody else on the team who actually autos or something like that lol.
Yeah nami is quite terror.Honestly vayne does fine with most supports the more imporant part of vayne is what you are up against.
On August 31 2014 00:47 Complete wrote: Who lanes well/synergizes well with janna?
I have a lot of trouble making it through the laning phase with janna...I like playing her though...
Everyone here answered this question in the wrong way. Janna isn't good with or against any specific AD. She has strengths and weaknesses to supports but not to ADs*
Janna is good in lane if your AD is stronger than their AD. If that is the case then Janna's move speed, shield, and zephyr ensure even more favorable trades and Janna's tornado prevents hard engages*. If Janna's AD cannot trade favorably then your shield will do little but drain your mana and your zephyr will just put you in range to take more damage.
Similarly Janna's shield isn't needed by late game ADs because they have the tools to carry late anyway. Rather she wants an early game AD because if the game does happen to get late the extra 50+ AD will even up the difference between the early game and late game kit thus letting your peel and steroid shine. For a true late game AD you want more guaranteed peel (like lulu, or Alistar) to ensure your AD cannot be killed or better/more reliable AOE peel/disengage like nami to protect your whole team
The exception to this is of you counter their support hard enough that your AD weakness doesn't matter. If the enemy is Leona(pre 6) and you're comfortable interrupting her dash then it doesn't matter if your AD is weaker than theirs because it's 2v1. But it's rare to get an enemy support that you completely counter like that since so many other supports have good matchup versus Janna.
*1: except trist but that is mainly because trist is so weak in lane against everyone. A single W on them or they support guarantees a good early game trade and pushes her off the creep line so long as your AD isn't brain dead.
*2: you can also use your nado offensively at level 1 to get some free damage on the enemy(make sure to get a follow up auto) so long as you don't expect a level 2 gank from their jungler. This is because if they gap close they will be in your creeps and will lose and if they can engage without your nado down then your nado being up doesn't matter.
On August 31 2014 00:47 Complete wrote: Who lanes well/synergizes well with janna?
I have a lot of trouble making it through the laning phase with janna...I like playing her though...
Everyone here answered this question in the wrong way. Janna isn't good with or against any specific AD. She has strengths and weaknesses to supports but not to ADs*
Janna is good in lane if your AD is stronger than their AD. If that is the case then Janna's move speed, shield, and zephyr ensure even more favorable trades and Janna's tornado prevents hard engages*. If Janna's AD cannot trade favorably then your shield will do little but drain your mana and your zephyr will just put you in range to take more damage.
Similarly Janna's shield isn't needed by late game ADs because they have the tools to carry late anyway. Rather she wants an early game AD because if the game does happen to get late the extra 50+ AD will even up the difference between the early game and late game kit thus letting your peel and steroid shine. For a true late game AD you want more guaranteed peel (like lulu, or Alistar) to ensure your AD cannot be killed or better/more reliable AOE peel/disengage like nami to protect your whole team
The exception to this is of you counter their support hard enough that your AD weakness doesn't matter. If the enemy is Leona(pre 6) and you're comfortable interrupting her dash then it doesn't matter if your AD is weaker than theirs because it's 2v1. But it's rare to get an enemy support that you completely counter like that since so many other supports have good matchup versus Janna.
*1: except trist but that is mainly because trist is so weak in lane against everyone. A single W on them or they support guarantees a good early game trade and pushes her off the creep line so long as your AD isn't brain dead.
*2: you can also use your nado offensively at level 1 to get some free damage on the enemy(make sure to get a follow up auto) so long as you don't expect a level 2 gank from their jungler. This is because if they gap close they will be in your creeps and will lose and if they can engage without your nado down then your nado being up doesn't matter.
I'm sorry man, you are completely wrong here.
First of all, every support is better if your ad is good, so I'm not sure why did you bring it up. If your ad is stupid you can keep him alive at least, if he's good you can do nasty stuff with him eventually and he can utilize your shield. One of Janna's strength actually is that she can carry an adc in lane, but if he remains a pussy in teamfights you can't help that with all the peel in the world.
And yes, Janna IS good with specific adcs, but to understand it easier, let's say she has synergies with specific kits: Poke: ranged poke and eye of the storm is huge. Not only it is hard to trade with poke champs (Cait, Varus, Jinx, Ashe, etc), you make it even stronger and your opponent will be less likely to try to fight back. Basically you force your enemies to eat dirt, whether by taking free (and increased!) damage or by zoning them for the shield's duration. Skills with good range and good AD scaling: Graves Q and R, Varus Q, MF Q, Cait Q and R, Jinx W and R, Ashe W, Lucian's Q and passive, etc. No one will die because you made one of these stronger once, but when you eat the third shielded Graves Buckshot, things will get ugly real soon, unless you are already dead, lol. Lvl 3 Janna E with same lvl MF Q hitting someone with the bounce damage is quite funny. Unmobile marksmen: If an adc does not have a jump or dash it's usually to balance out his kit. Miss Fortune can deal retarded amounts of damage just by moving through her skills and standing in one place, but once you jump on her she's dead. Janna is great to balance that out, and erase such weaknesses. I'm not saying she is better with these adcs, but she makes them much more viable.
Janna-Caitlyn lane is just unbeatable, and the amount of harass you have to survive under turret from them is just crazy. Janna Draven is the epitome of early agressiveness, there is no "wait lvl 2" bullshit, Draven makes 2 spinning axes and goes the fuck in with the shield. There is absolutely no trade in that. With every level that lane just gets sillier and sillier, and while Draven is quite vulnerable when you rush him down, Janna Draven is the new Leona/Taric Graves, it's just less flashy. You die in 3 axe and can not ever go on him, it's much more boring than seeing all the cool animations and explosions. Still, the end result is the same. Draven Janna gets worse by the time teamfights start breaking out, and things like Janna-Ashe or Janna Trist will be harder to deal with for your opponent, but we were discussing lane synergies, so yeah.
So these were the freewin lanes, now let1s see the champs I put inthe "great" category: Varus: Buy some blue potions on Varus, and Q them to death. EZ. His attack speed bonus works well with the bonus ad. Lucian: Burst and mobility. OK. Miss Fortune: Her Q harass and the W for 1v1s supported by the shield and peel is unfightable. She's like a Draven light for Janna. Jinx: Safe rocket harass, insane W damage, insane ult damage and shield works well with her minigun as well if she can stack it up. She's a Caitlyn light for Janna, except she is stronger in face to face fights.
Now let's see the champions from my worst category: Vayne: Talked about it a lot on the previous page. Ezreal: It has been discussed as well, Ezreal is a self-supporting adc and he is much better with supports who doesn't rely on their adc as much as Janna.
If you want a support who doesn't hae great synergies in lane, look at Sona. She can poke and give an extra damage ability to her adc. Which adc can use the extra attack? All of them. She can heal and give them a temporary shield. Who likes heals and free shields? Everyone. She can speed them up. Who doesn'T like being faster? Everyone likes being faster. She gets synergies when she gets lvl 6, as such an aoe stun is best combined with huge aoe damage, like Ezreal R, Graves combo, etc. and easy follow up, so adcs who have jumps, dashes, free flashes. But pre 6 she can work well with everyone.
And don't say such a thing that Janna's shield is not needed by late game adcs, lol. - Hey, dear late game adc, do you want a free bf sword to your 50%+ crit chance, ~1.8 aspd and inceased critical strike damage? - Fuck off, who needs that? Not me. - Hey but what if you have a skill that enormously increases your aspd, so technically my shield will get even better for you! - I don't care, still don't want it. - And what if you have a lot of skills which scale off very good with bonus AD? - I don't want bigger burst, who wants bigger burst? - And if I go AP, and I give you a 100 ad instead of 50 with a shield that's much harder to pop? - You mean, 100 ad which is much more than items that almost cost 4k gold give? No thanks, shield yourself or whaever, but leave me out of this! Yeah, no, dude , that's not how it works. Janna's E scale into late game like a beast, and since she is a mid/late game support, she works well with mid and especially late game adcs in the long run. Yes, she sucks hard time with Kog in lane, but late game Kog with late game Janna? Not funny.
No one has more reliable peel (unless you miss all the qs and keep failshielding yourself, but that's another category of unreliability), not sure why people keep bringing this up, when Janna is literally made to peel. While abilities like Whimsy are awesome, nothing (aside from Gragas' ult) will come close to Monsoon. She has the lowest cd peeling spells, and you can not qss/mikael knockup and knockback. Janna is the ultimate peel support, so let's not talk about "but xy peels better", because if it was true, there would be absolutely no reason playing her. Her initial peel might be matched (Alistar with his malphite ult) occasionally, but no one can take the crown from her in fights which last long enough (eg. more than 6 seconds) for your abilities to come off cd.
Janna does not counter any single support, she just has good matchups. If you think she counters Leona then you must think that you just stand behind minions and Blitz/Thresh will never hook you. These are child tales.
1. Trist is the only hypercarry that actually lanes well, so don't say she has a weak laning. Also, your lvl 1 W should not do anything, unless you go ap with knife.
2. Yes, you can waste all your mana lvl 1, but there's not much point to it, not even with the ap route. Trying to tornado excessively (like this lvl 1 idea) is what gets Janna lanes killed or useless. A Zephyr does the same damage, costs 50 mana less and is much easier to follow up by your adc. And the range is the same, because the only way you can tornado them at lvl 1 up if you get extremely close to give them an instant q. You can try to make plays with Janna lvl 1, but a rule of thumb is that if it involves your tornado, then it's a bad idea, unless you are invading or invaded.
Not if your AD is more skilled if your AD is stronger. If you pick Janna with trist you're going to get shat on in lane and baring an amazing turn around shat on it team fights and just generally shat on. Janna does not shore up trists weak laning*, she does not allow trist to trade favorably. She does not provide any favorable trades herself (as say, karma, or Zyra, or Leona, or x where x is just about any champion). Similarly the trade off that Janna's shield gives is NOT what you listed because the comparison is not between nothing and the shield. Yea trist loves 70 extra AD but 70 AD on trist isn't worth the damage and tank or peel that other supports bring to the table.
If you pick Janna and cait you're not unbeatable; every cait counter beats you regardless of their support. Draven or varus, gg. Draven or Varus plus lulu or nami and you're super fucked. Why? Because Janna does nothing for cait if cait doesn't out trade the enemy.
What Janna does is make a stronger AD unbeatable. But she does almost nothing for an AD who is going to lose lane.
And if you think that Janna's peel is more reliable then Lulu or Alistar you're just foolish. There are only a few times when Janna peels harder than they do (mainly against specific melee assassins who have only one gap close). Against teams with linear engage paths Nami is clearly superior because her ult can disengage the entire team where as Janna's requires Janna to be in range of their whombo to do anything. And it's not like these champions don't build CDR and so can't get their skills off CD at roughly the same point too. Janna's q has a 14 to 10 second CD and is leveled up last. Alistars q has a 17 to 13 second CD and is leveled up first so from levels 7 to 14 his peel comes off CD faster than yours. This isn't even counting his w which comes up faster than your q at all points in the game and is almost as strong peel as your ult.
Aside: at level 1 q > w for damage. It's AOE and the knock up means you are guaranteed to get an auto off without having to move into creeps. You will not run out of mana using tornado offensively at level 1 unless you use it every CD. But it's mana/time isn't any worse than her shield. (Yes than her w but nado is much better level 1 than zephyr)
* good lord yes trist has weak laning how could you think different? She has a strong all in and a good level 1 harass if the enemy has low range and can't go through minions (and so has an even worse laning phase than she does) but neither of those things work well at all with Janna. Janna doesn't have all in support like Leo or Thresh or an I or x where x is almost any other support. Janna doesn't have a strong level 1 harass game due to her low auto range and trists level 1 harass relies on people not being able to take advantage of her 16 second cooldown.
And yes in case you were wondering Janna absolutely counters Leona pre 6.
I mean look the last two pages of your posts are just a mess of contradictions
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami"
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports"
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence"
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!"
Frankly the idea that any support is good with an AD regardless of the makeup of the enemies bottom lane is dumb. There are some synergies but those can always be countered and negated and different supports can be better given the enemies composition.
But it is especially dumb with Janna because Janna is so much more reliant on the AD than other supports just due to the nature of her kit. If you need burst Leona can facilitate burst with any AD or even mid laner. If you need tank alistar can tank for anyone. If you need damage lux, zyra, or velkoz will do damage in most any situation. But Janna only brings damage,when her AD can stay relatively safe on their own so that the shield isn't popped before damage can be done, when her AD can use the move speed to out maneuver the enemy, when you can accentuate those strengths you have.
She simply does not do those things without her AD and this makes her the most dependent on the matchup, not the least.
First, let's clear up the non-Janna related stuff: Tristana is a good laner, there's a reason why riot nerfed her early game and why everyone is saying "good early, bad mid, good late". She's safe, easy poke, good all in, then in mid game her damaging skills fall off, and at late game her range with the maxed q becomes godlike. If you think otherwise, there is really no point of arguing, I never lose a Janna-Tristana lane, it's practically impossible, unless we derp really hard. The only safest lane is with Ezreal and Cait. Maybe you can add Corki, but Trist's point and click harass is just stupid. In teamfights Tristana is one of the most easiest and rewarding adc to support with Janna, so yeah, shat on. Ok bro.
There is no arguing Janna shield is op and really useful late game, and if you bring the arguement to such levels where you basically say "why the fuck do you pick her?" then we are not talking about her E, and I don't know why you play her. Inferior E and subpar R. Oh yes, she's a great early game support. Are you playing "how many facts can you miss in a row", or I just don't get the sarcasm?
Anyway, there won't ever be an agreement which supports brings the most to teamfights so it's pointless to even start arguing about it, one thing is sure, Janna's peel is not matched, that's what she is made for. Other supports can initiate, throw lanterns, do aoe stuns with basic abilities, give out free qss', everyone has their role, but the more versatile a support is, the less strong he is in certain areas. Look at Braum, he can peel, initiate, block projectiles, stun everyone. Does he have the best initiation? No. Does he have the best peel? No.
Janna is not tanky, Alistar is. Janna has pretty weak and extremely risky initiation power, Leona, Thresh, Ali, Nami have a much easier time doing it. Janna is pretty weak on her own, even with ap, Lulu, Nami, Sona, Zyra are damn strong in lane, you can't 1v1 them. Janna has two things going for her: mobility and extreme peel power. If she was not the best in any of these, there would be absolutely no reason to play her.
I am foolish? Few times? Really. Whimsy is reduced by tenacity and can be dispelled by items, and even though her ult is a good lifesaver, people still stay in top of your ally and Monsoon can be utilized to do all the much more. Alistar doesn't give passive movement speed, and W cd for Janna seals the deal. Sure, headbutt them away, I just permslow them while my adc kills them. Also, Janna has six tools to peel (passive, q, w, e (you need some ap here, but even the base amount is more than 3 times stronger than Ali heal and you are always in range) r knockback and r heal). Alistar has headbutt and pulverize. You can peel with them really good, no denying that, but there's a reason you can also do 5 man maplhite ult initiations with them, while you need to flash with Janna knock one or two people back, but they can counterflash it anyway. So yeah, Alistar has much more offensive power in his peeling abilities, and that's the tradeoff why Janna can be better.
Aoe? You won't hit two of them, they are not gooses to line up for no reason, unless you are blue side and you bushcamp in river brush and they walk there at the same time. But then you can also charge it up and kill them if you brought ignite, so yeah, you can cheese in that bush with almost everyone, so don't even bring this up. If you stay for the auto you might as well stay after w-ing one of them because you are guaranteed to get hit back for sure. It's even funnier if you are vs a Nami ,and her W plus auto + her adc's auto puts you much lower than her adc, while also heal him back up. Quality trade. Sure, you can abuse with melee supports, but W is better vs them as well. No you won't run out of mana, you just spent 50 mana more for absolutely no reason, and with every single tornado you use in level one that's another extra 50 mana. We are talking about a champion you can run out of mana with using manaregen runes, manaregen masteries, not using tornado at all and still go oom in soma lanes even with a mana potion. Yes, if tornado costed 50 mana it would be a better level 1 skill in lane, true. But I won't talk anyone off doing it, I keep my shield and watch people get outraded from level 1 onwards, while you can pull off big plays with tornadoes. Jeez, just use ad marks, get knife and shield yourself then put 3 points in w after that.
No, she doesn't counter Leona. Maybe you play against half assed ones, I don't know, but in a lane with four people there is no counter. Yes yes, I get it, you can tornade her E back, great. I guess the whole laning phase will be you and Leona standing face to face, she tries to E and you Q her back, and you repeat it until lvl 6. I always thought there's more to this game, but I guess I wrong, ggwp countered.
On September 01 2014 07:15 Goumindong wrote: I mean look the last two pages of your posts are just a mess of contradictions
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami"
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports"
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence"
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!"
Frankly the idea that any support is good with an AD regardless of the makeup of the enemies bottom lane is dumb. There are some synergies but those can always be countered and negated and different supports can be better given the enemies composition.
But it is especially dumb with Janna because Janna is so much more reliant on the AD than other supports just due to the nature of her kit. If you need burst Leona can facilitate burst with any AD or even mid laner. If you need tank alistar can tank for anyone. If you need damage lux, zyra, or velkoz will do damage in most any situation. But Janna only brings damage,when her AD can stay relatively safe on their own so that the shield isn't popped before damage can be done, when her AD can use the move speed to out maneuver the enemy, when you can accentuate those strengths you have.
She simply does not do those things without her AD and this makes her the most dependent on the matchup, not the least.
"Janna has amazing lane presence best of any support but Nami" - So replying to someone who said Janna is the best laner with Nami and telling him why he is wrong means I agree with him? Okay.
"Janna can only beat nami, Leona, sona, morgana if she has draven or cait as an AD, any other AD and Janna will have lower lane presence than other supports" - if all of you are on an equal skill level, than yes. Just because that Nami's ad is a useless Vayne and you win with a Quinn doesn'T mean you had more lane presence, it means QUinn had more lane presence than Vayne. Not sure if she has though, Rarely seen any Quinns at bot, was just an example not including Draven or Cait.
"Janna is great with weak ADs because of her lane presence" - This is where I got pretty mad, because putting so many random shit in my mouth is not cool. I never said her lane presence makes them better, I was talking about teamfigths, and I added that she is NOT better with so called "weak" adcs than with the op ones, she is just better with them than other supports, especially than non peeler ones. If you check my tier list, Ezreal and Corki are both in the bad tier in lane synergy, evne though both Corki and Ez has nice laning. Also, "weak" adcs become weak outside of lane, like MF; she has a beast laning phase so there's no need to make up for anything. Pls stahp.
"Janna is bad with weak ADs!" - Well I'm not entirely sure which statement of mine did you generalize and miscommunicate like this. I said she sucks with Kog or Vayne for example because they are really vulnerale in lane (and you don't have the tools yet to peel efficently). She's also bad with Corki and Ezreal, even though, chances are high you won't lose the lane. There you go, now I just said she is weak with week laners and week with good laners as well! Mind fucking blown, but if someone actually reads what I write, and not trying with his best to try to make a fool of me, then he will understand. The only time I generalized is when I talked about synergies, and I said she is great with good ad sclaing abilities and champs who have ad burst, + she eventually makes up for ones immobility.
There are duo lanes which are extremely strong, no matter what the enemy brings. You can't counter a Janna-Caitlyn and you have to play balls to the wall with a very strong duo to beat Janna-Draven. On the other hand, there are extremely useless duo lanes as well, works both ways.
Yes, Janna is a reliant on her adc, she is the guardian angel type. Guess what, there are adcs out there who need just that. Put it together, and whether in lane or outside of it (or at both, I'm looking at you Cait) it will be a crazy good composition. Is Janna the best support for Cait in lane? No, but right now the question was which adc works well with Janna in lane and not which adc works well with Janna in lane, and which support works better with that adc. Also, I'm fairly convinced Janna is the best utility support for Draven, Morgana coming fairly close, but of course, feel free to argue with that. The main point is that they wreck faces. And no, before you say "Janna-Draven 100% winrate everyone - Volband", I did not say that, though I'm pretty sure my winrate with them - aside one dc - is 100% in this season, lol.
The point of your shield in lane btw to force trades, not to consider it an egg, you can not break. Man, the best feeling for me when they break the shield, because it means not only I put the extra ad to good use, I (or my adc, matter of perspective) could utilize the shield portion of it. Also, I bet that Lucian who just got hit by two shielded spinning axes by a Draven who rushed at him at lvl 2 will be fucking joyful that he popped the shield in return. "Haha, you might almost two-shot me, but you don't have the shield now. AHAHAHA, where you at Janna?!".
Expand your mind, there is a reason Janna is considered among the hardest champions to master. If she was a "pop her shield then it's gg" champion, I would not main her for 3 seasons now for sure. Sounds boring and volatile. I love her because I can do things no other champions are capable of (this is a statement that can be pick out of its' context btw, so go ahead " "-it into something I never implied), she's impossible to master thus I enjoy every single game with her, and I like making plays and being the unsung hero at the same time. It's especially rewarding when I'm recognized and added for some nice words after the game.
I love the versatility of this champion, I keep checking out higher lvl Jannas and it's amazing how differently we think, best example is the knife vs coin route. I'd love to argue with someone supporting the former, but you just say Trist is a weak laner (okay, not Janna related, but come on now...), Q start is good (okay, this is my nitpicking, you won't lose the game just because you do this), she is not the best peeler, her shield is meh, and she is best with early game adcs, because of your opinion on yher shield. That's just silly and I don't really see much point arguing those points more - people can learn whatever they want from this arguement -, I'm confident in my experiences with her, and while such things as tier lists can be argued, because it is heavily affected by my taste and preferences, peeling power and value of e... not really.
Well clearly it's arguable because you seem to think that the offensive power of e is amazing and that it remains so when your ad is countered by theirs. Which is a backwards stance. If your ad trades poorly then you get nothing out of he shield besides the HP. If your AD trades well then the offensive power of e is less necessary compared to increased engage potential of w.
Yea if draven gets two shield empowered axes off at level one its a lot of damage but it's not as much as the three empowered axes he can get off with a q or w start.
Yes she peels well but her primary advantage is when she doesn't have to so that the ad on her shield actually makes an impact. You say that Alistar has tank and engage and [i]therefore[i] he has less peel but ignore the fact that Janna has consistent damage* on her shield and the effect that that must have on her peel by your logic. Besides the fact that that is a weird stance it's internally inconsistent.
Yes I absolutely think that her e is redundant on the hyper carries. Hyper carries don't need a handful of more damage so that they kill someone in 3.2 shots instead of 3.7 they need someone who is going to entirely stop the enemy team from killing them. They already will win a straight up fight they need someone to ensure that a straight up fight will happen. But ADs without steroids absolutely need those buffs because they won't win the straight up fight without them compared to a later scaling AD.
Why do you think Braum is so highly valued by professional teams? It's not because of his ally steroids. It's because he has three mechanisms for ensuring a fight that has to go through him first rather than his AD and that is precisely what late game ADs want and they couldn't care less for a steroid (this is also why Janna is so good against him, because her shield negates that advantage of the enemy teams carry! Which forces Braums team into a position where they need to make picks which is something Braum is bad at)
*Indeed the highest consistent damage buff for ADs in the game! Higher even than many ADs self steroids.
Your shield, in order to be valuable, needs to be popped or to be actively in an engagement for a significant amount of time in order to be valuable.
Early you can make two kinds of trades, pressuring trades where you get an ability or auto and continue to pressure, or single where you get a single ability off then have to back off
Generally your AD is stronger you want to have more pressuring trades because it allows you to push and solidify your advantage. Supports which are good with a stronger AD allow that AD to continue pressure really hard. Nami is the quintessential example her slow on autos lets her AD get more autos and lets her set up for a bubble which either forces disengage or dash off a single trade pressured.
Is Janna's w or e better for those types of trades? Well early it's definitely her w. On the stipulation that you win the trade then making the trade go on longer is what brings the most advantage. Similarly before your AD has other multiplicative scaling items the AD and especially AD per level (9) don't compare to the extra attacks from the extra slow and 50 damage from the ability.
Now of your AD is weaker you want to have short trades because you can stay even in short bursts (usually, at the very least if the enemy is stronger after the trade they would want to pressure and by extension we don't want that to happen). In this instance the advantage of the shield only happens if it pops since in terms of damage 9 damage used once/twice will never beat 50 damage.
Again w is slightly better(so long as your AD has sustain). But neither option is particularly good since the enemy wants to continue to pressure and you don't have a way to make them stop pressuring (except a which is expensive and on a long cooldown). You can't do this forever and you certainly can't do it before they want to pressure again.
Late game the effect of the shield is strong regardless of how it's used. But it's still stronger on champions which don't have strong sf steroids. Both because of diminishing returns on single champion value but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage.
Edit: anyway so you seem to think that the scaling on the shield is amazing. So let's figure out what it is.
To start its .1 AP attack as physical damage (500 AP to double). Which is about half the strength of on hit AP scaling abilities like Kayle et al. However because it's raw AD it is multiplied by their stats. So let's say they attack 2 times a second, have IE and 55% crit. In that case it's .38 AP damage as physical per second in scaling. All in all pretty weak.
How weak is it compared to a damage ability? Well if you only get 2 seconds of dps then it's clear it's equivalent to about 180+.75 AP damage as an ability.
That is kind of low you have to get three seconds out of the shield on a hypercarry to make it equivalent damage as a damage ability. This is one reason why, if you have a hyper carry, that you are less concerned about the damage and more concerened about the peel. And why you would even prefer someone like lux who with 400 AP would do 2000+ damage with her combo as your support if you don't need her unique mix of consistent damage and peel.
When I talk about E's scaling, I mean the scaling with her adc's items and levels. It gets stronger as your adc gets more aspd and critical chance. If you go ap it's straight out retarded, because ~400 ap is easily achievable, you don't even need meijai. But let's talk about a regular utility Janna.
Janna's overall best adc is Caitlyn, because they have a great sinergy from lvl 1 to lvl 18, it's deifnetly the safest combo. Now let's see another math.
Caitlyn (lvl16+): Let's say she has 300 ad 2.0 attack speed and 50% crit chance and 25% increased crit damage for easier math. This means she gets 2 shots off in every second each dealing 300 physical damage and one of them will crit (yes, it's rng, but I want my example to be readable, I know it could be better or worse). That's 975 damage in 1 second. In 5 seconds she deals 3900 damage from 4 regular and 4 critical strike, and she deals a headshot (+450 damage instead of 300) and a critical headshot (125% attack damage *1.25 from infinity= ~150% = 750 damage instead of 675) which means 5100 damage.
Let's see the same with eye of the storm. 4550 damage from the 4 regular + 4 critical strikes, an extra 525 damage from headshot and an extra 875 from critical headshot which means she deals 5950 damage. That's 850 damage more with 0 ap eye of the storm in a game where even tanks have around ~4k hp. We will never get the effective damage, because I rounded things up, and there could be attack speed slows or enhancments (ardent censer anyone?), huge ass armors, % armor penetrations, etc. I also left out the masteries with the 3% extra damage and the 6% increased ad (or bonus ad?).
Out of curiosity, let's see a mild hybrid Janna, who has 200 ap, which can be achieved even as a utility support. Mejai helps, but an ardent and twin shadows are already 120 plus ap, and with runes it's around 150-160, but I usually just buy a deathcap, and dcap plus ardent should give that 200 ap. Anyway, Janna gives 70 ad now instead of 50, so Caitlyn deals 4800 damage from 8 shots, 555 headshot damage and 925 critical headshot which will result in 6280 damage. That's an 1180 damage increase just because you are Janna.
Do you know how could I make an even better example? If my example was not about Caitlyn, but rather Tristana, the hottest hypercarry at the moment who can easily achieve 2.5 attack speed and can shoot from insane safety. Do you know how could I make an example that sounds way worse than my Caitlyn one? If I included an adc that doesn't scale all that well and doesn't have such insane steroids. The conclusion is, that the more well equipped and the more late game oriented your adc is, the better your shield becomes.
And let's not forget Twitch ultimates, Graves or Lucian bursts, or ad assassins like Talon or Zed. Probably Ashe is the odd one out,because the shield is pretty shit on her, no streroid, lackluster W later on in teamfights (gets pretty good with peel) and the fact that she starts with a crit doesn't mean all that buch. Still, Ashe-Janna is one of the strongest teamfighting adc-support combination, but it's because both of them can peel extremely well. Of course, the shield's value go up, because that Miss Fortune might have a nice aspd steroid, but she has to kite for sure (which means not utilizing her aspd completely) or the shield will be popped (which means no bonus ad). Tristana on the other hand has a 90% aspd steroid, an op range and an escape tool. Tristana is a late game carry MF is not.
Obvious questions might arise: - But Volband, Vayne is a hypercarry too but her main power source is her W and ultimate. True that, but with a 2 seconds cd tumble she can keep herself safe and somewhat utilize the shield. auto-q-auto, all of these can critically strike. Still, Janna-Vayne in mid/late game works because of their mobility and because hypercarries need peel, even with such escape tools. - But Volband, Kog is a hypercarry too, but he barely has any ad scaling skills. - True, but you can't ignore the highest range on any adc (outside of Twitch, but come on now, that's an ultimate and guess what, he's a late game carry as well, and guess what, works great with Janna if you reach that point.). The best example here is MF again. She has an auto reset, aspd steroid, extra on hit damage scaling from ad and an ultimate than can apply those stacks up to 5 people. I'd rather have her with my Janna up to mid game, than Kog, but when Kog hits his threshold, I'd say goodbye to mf immidietly. As I said earlier, Janna is great with her, because she can peel for her, evening out her lack of mobility somehow, but that still won't make me more useful with her than with a late game Kog, who should be only targeted by assassin's in his W form with correct positioning, and guess what, Janna shits on almost every assassin, and if they don't have one, by the time you have to peel for Kog, the attackers are already at half hp, and I'm fairly convinced he could deal more extra damage with eye of the storm than a late game mf who has tons of skills which increase's the shield's effectiveness. But ult is easily broken and won't hit 5 people, especially not with a full channel, her W lasts for 6 seconds compared to Trist's 7 (with superior range,escape and a single-target Janna ultimate built in her) and Kog's 8 (with superior range and % hp shred), and don't forget she has to kite sooner than her hypercarry counterparts, so those 6 seconds are even less). I won't mention her. AP Janna is highly advised with Kog though, shield can break fast on him, even though your peel is what makes you such a good pick for Kog outside of lane. - But Volband, shield's be poppin' - I know, son. Not for Tristana or Cait, but for others, sure. Don't sweep about it. Yes, it's amazing that with 200 ap you can increase a late game Caitlyn's damage output by 1180~, which is half of an adc's life at lvl 18, and you will pretty much deal near the same damage to them, as they won't walk around with thronmails, randuins and whatnot. Still, Janna is not an E-bot. Shield popped immidietly? Who cares, your main and utmost priority (as utiltiy Janna anyway) is to keep your carry alive. There are situations where you can keep her shield up with your peeling, and there are instances when 3 goons jump on him, and it is just impossible to keep a ~300 hp shield up when the enemy assassin's have more AD to begin with. Remember, being alive and autoattacking is still much better than being dead. Look at your shield in late mid/late game as an added extra. If it's not popped your adc should murder everyone, easy peasy house cleaning, if it's popped, well, you still increased his health by ~15% and you can still act as the peeler bitch of the universe, no biggie. If youwhipped your ult howewer, now THATS big. Hell, even a missed tornado right before teamfight starts can be a much bigger deal than a shield instapopping. What is a better safety tool, shielding for ~300 hp or interrupting a bruiser's gapclose which is followed by tons of damage and interrupting channels like ww or kat ult? Easy answer.
So why is it better on late game carries? You all know Day9's famous quote: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". There is no such thing as "[...] but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage". So? Why not make him even stronger?? Have you ever seen a Jax asking his support to not use mikael's on him, because he has already outscaled them and it would be really unfair if someone cleansed a stun/root off of him?? Have you heard a Tristana complaining that she kills people too fast with her q and your e combined? Have you heard an Ashe telling you to stick to other teammates, she can already kite and too much peel would make her unkillable and the game would be too easy? I surely did not, like.. ever. It's true there are diminsihing returns, but with that mindset, don't build any ad on adcs because it will only make their armor more valuable. You almost said the same thing as me, just with the wrong mindset towards the game. Yes, in the long run Janna is more useful for adcs who fall off later on thanks to their immbility or short range, but that does not mean you are stronger with them with late game carries. To give a first grader example with completely made up stats: Varus' winrate with Janna is 70%, but with other supports only 20%. That's amazing, but Tristana's win rate is 90% with Janna and 60% with others, so even if that's just a 30% increase compared to a 50% one, Janna is still better with Trist. You see what I'm getting at? Just because someone is a ticking time bomb by nature and will eventually be a powerhouse, doesn't mean you are worse with her than with someone who desperately needs your help to remain relevant later on. (No, I don't look down on Varus or imply he's utter shit later, I just make things simpler to understand). If you think otherwise then you are shooting yourself in the leg and put a wall in the middle of your road to progress with her.
Now all this talk was about mid/late game eye of the storm, and pretty much nothing I just said is true for laning, because Janna's E is not about the increased ad in lane, but the extremely favourable trading potential. You can calculate how much damage you can deal with W compared to E, if you won't take damage suffered into the equation. You dealt 80 damage for 80 damage (you should suffer more though, just saying) in return? Nice, max shield and deal 60 damage for 0 damage in return. Repeat it, and eventually your opponents will have to get ready for your incoming flashes under their tower. Again, I'm talking about the regular utility Janna, not the knife+ap one. Man, Pantheon could deal a shitton of damage bot lane, why don't people play him? He has zero sustain compared to sustain and targon supports (he could build targon, but then you lower his damage output and most of the other targon supports has some kind of shield/heal/extra resistances anyway), and it's really all-inish to go in with him. Why do people have success with vel'koz support? He has no sustain, but extremely good range with silly mana costs with the added true damage for the lulz. Janna without shield has no sustain (you chugging potions won't help your adc who's at half health), and a range on her W that is so easy to retaliate to. Even if you are vs melee supports, they can usually fight back somehow (Thresh maxing E, Taric stunning you), making their adc's job all the easier to three shot you. I told you, bot lane is poke and sustain. What does E give your lane? Better poke and sustain. You max W with Leona, for sustain, so you can have an easier time dealing tons of damage. You (usually, unless your adc is a god) max W on Nami for sustain, so you can keep up with your poking and help your adc out if he goes derp. You dump points on W on Soraka to make trading with you impossible and a watse of mana and hp. You max Q with Karma because it deals ridiculous damage from a nice range. You max Q with Morgana because your shield only blocks magic damage, so a bigger root and Q damage is much much better. There are supports who have the luxury to max almost whatever the hell they want, but I don't want to get too much into it. Alistar has great all-in potential and Lulu has a very safe poke for example, so it makes sense to ignore the sustain sometimes.
Also, if you maxed W instead of E and you could not completely shit on the enemy by the time you leave bot, the lack of points in E will come back haunting you. A lvl 5 E without any AP is still a great early teamfight tool to keep someone alive, the enemy won't deal 1 million damage with each hit just yet. AP Janna is an exception once again, because W can hit quite hard then and the ap ratio on her shield makes it so that you'll essencially have a ~lvl 3 E already at lvl 1 with some early items.
Ah, and why woud your adc have sustain in lane? The most important, early stages at bot he will have a whole Doran's blade, which won't help much, and later on the poke or all-in will still be greatly superior compared to a vamp scepter+doran. If you can't give sustain somehow, then your adc has none early game. "Let me lifesteal back myself from half hp" - said the valiant but oh so naive adc 3 seconds before he got all-ined.
Not sure what 9 damages are you talking about when a lvl 2 eye of the storm gives 23 bonus ad, which increases ad scaling abilities, not to mention that the biggest strength of the shield is that it lets your adc to autoattack his opponent in the first place. Yes, two regular AAs with a lvl 2 Janna shield deals only ~50 (masteries included now) bonus damage before mitigation, but if you don't shield him he could not even walk up yolo style, tanking minion aggro and whatnot. We are talking about at least a hundred damage dealt without suffering much on your own, instead of not oding anything, or putting yourself in unnecessary danger. Such a simple thing to understand. But okay, let's say your adc is really bad. Well, E max can be still deceptive, and you can use your adc as a retard magnet. Plus 160 health and 32 bonus ad can be quite a surprise after you went all in as an adc, and your Janna (blind pick example) can't do shit to help your sorry ass because she maxed W. I said it many times, it's so easy to win lanes with Janna where your opponents want to all in you. The shield is just huge.
I doubt anybody will read that much text l0l. I'll close your argument by just saying that janna is without a doubt in a good spot now, the reason is pretty simple, all the fotm supports have been nerfed and while they remain strong the nerfs do count. I don't know why she sees so few play in pro matches. Apparently gorilla plays her a lot so I'm sure we'll see more of her at worlds.
On September 02 2014 03:38 Volband wrote:That's an 1180 damage increase just because you are Janna.
Sure, but that isn't actually a lot of damage and if you think its a lot of damage for a level 16 champion to be outputting then I don't know what to say. Lux's Combo does about 1300 damage at that level with zero AP. At 200 AP, Lux's AoE damage is 1188 (That is, E, and R with the R auto passive proc and no auto attacks). Zyra and Vel'Koz have similar AoE damages. So while you're saying WOW 1180 damage just because you're janna you have to realize that this number isn't very large at all. Lux doesn't have great scaling and she does more damage in an AoE than you do with your entire rotation assuming your ADC doesn't take any damage.
Eye of the Storm adds 50 damage and has 500 AP to double. 500 AP to double damage is a low number, it represents low scaling, not high scaling. 300 AP to double damage is a good high scaling number.
So it doesn't matter if you're using trist instead of cait. 25% extra damage on top of "pretty low damage " is "still pretty low damage"
I am not saying that Janna is bad. Indeed her shield is very strong, her peel is very strong, her ability to be mobile with her carry in the mid game is very valuable. But what I am saying is that Janna is not the lategame hypercarry booster you think she is.
Part of this is because hypercarries don't need boosts lategame. If you're in a straight up fight and your carry is doing more DPS than their carry then the way you win is by having another tank (or another lategame damage source). Janna doesn't do that. If you're not in a straight up fight then having another damage threat, or having pure peel (like Lulu) tends to be stronger. You only need to boost your AD if your AD isn't going to be doing more DPS than them. I.E. your AD isn't a hypercarry. Because then you can get your non-hypercarry AD to hypercarry status. This is, indeed, one of the reasons why Cait is good* with Janna is because Cait has a shitty lategame and Janna shores that up.
The other part of this is because Janna's kit falls off when the entire team starts scaling hard as explained above. The only part of Janna's kit which is lategame is her full channel ult. But if you're getting full channel ults off then the other team is really not paying attention or is totally outclassed because interrupting that should be a priority.
*insofar as Cait is not countered in lane.
So why is it better on late game carries? You all know Day9's famous quote: "If you're ahead, get more ahead!". There is no such thing as "[...] but also because those champions will already be stronger than the guy on the other side due to their natural scaling advantage". So? Why not make him even stronger??
That quote, it does not mean what you think it means. What that quote means is that you should leverage your strength to win as soon as you can. And that every incremental advantage you have should be used. It does not mean that "whatever your strongest aspect is the best way to get stronger is via that strongest aspect". Why would I use Mikaels on a fed Jax? Because Jax's weakest aspect is being stunned. Mikael's shores up his weakness not his strengths.
The same thing happens in Starcraft that Day 9 teaches about. You don't build one unit type in your army and/or only upgrade one unit. You build every unit type you need and upgrade every unit upgrade you need. The optimal upgrade path is not dependent on "getting more ahead". The optimal upgrade path is a question of marginal value for marginal resource usage.
So when you're thinking about "get further ahead" this really means "get ahead as soon as possible" or "if you have a lategame ADC pick an early game support this will let your lategame ADC get ahead faster" or "if you have an early strong ADC pick a support that accentuates that strength"
Now all this talk was about mid/late game eye of the storm, and pretty much nothing I just said is true for laning, because Janna's E is not about the increased ad in lane, but the extremely favourable trading potential.
Yes but it doesn't have extremely favorable trading potential. Look, in laning there are generally two types of trades.
1) Trades you want to continue to prosecute
2) Trades the enemy wants to continue to prosecute.
The last one, the one where shield is really good
3) Trades that neither you or the enemy want to continue to prosecute
Those basically don't exist. Rather there are
3a) Trades that one side wants to prosecute but cannot because it does not have the tools to continue to do so
This is why W is Janna's primary power tool in lane. Because if the enemy wants to continue to prosecute a trade, it cannot when its slowed and cannot move into range. And when you want to continue to prosecute a trade they cannot refuse because they're slowed and cannot move out of range. If i am relying on shield instead(with maybe the exception of a very proficient cait versus a low range champion) then I am giving up the ability to prosecute 1 and the ability to prevent 2 in the hope that all we get is 3a. Which is foolish. Now, sometimes you need to level shield because you cannot stop enemy prosecution with W(too risky, not strong enough). But this is not the situation you want to be in. If you're winning trades, losing a handful of HP on your AD in order to entirely ruin the other is very much worth it.
Why don't people play Pantheon support? Because his only way to force trades that your side wants to continue to prosecute is to dive into the enemy minions for his stun. This changes the calculus from something that he wants to continue to prosecute to something the enemy does. If his spear had a high strength 3 second slow on it, pantheon would be a hilariously strong support (though his build paths sucking might remove that) because every 4 seconds he would spear the enemy and then your AD would have an easy engage on them that they could not stop
Also, if you maxed W instead of E and you could not completely shit on the enemy by the time you leave bot, the lack of points in E will come back haunting you
Why would it. E gives 40 HP/level and 9 AD/level. It doesn't decrease its CD it doesn't have any utility scaling. If you're maxing W you're faster, you can make picks harder, and get your move speed back faster
Not sure what 9 damages are you talking about when a lvl 2 eye of the storm gives 23 bonus ad, which increases ad scaling abilities, not to mention that the biggest strength of the shield is that it lets your adc to autoattack his opponent in the first place.
I don't even know why you're arguing if you cannot see that 23-14 = 9 . When we look at leveling up skills we don't look at the final value because that is dumb. We look at the marginal value. "What do i get from leveling up this skill". Shield gives you 9 AD and 40 HP(90 AP worth of AD, 57 AP worth of shield). Zephyr gives you 2% move speed, 4% slow, 55 damage, 1 second CD (100 AP worth of move speed, 66 AP worth of slow, 110 AP worth of damage, 8.3-33% non-cap CDR)
The "when ahead..." statement in sc2 refers to building a small lead into a bigger lead by macro (usually expanding) instead of trying to win as soon as possible. In fact it means pretty much the exact opposite of
What that quote means is that you should leverage your strength to win as soon as you can.
The best application of this principle in lol is when you are having a small lead and you poke and go for safe dragons and turrets to expand your gold lead, instead of trying to force a teamfight.
For the rest of the Janna talk i agree with Volband 100% (I played a lot of Janna in Season 3 and those things did not really change). There are certainly adcs that work better with Janna (and Cait is one of the best because Janna has great short-trading effects in lane). I wouldn't say that Janna/Cait is unbeatable in lane, but definitely really strong. That can also be shown empirically by checking for bot lane matchup winrates. Janna's peel lategame is really strong and the added damage of the shield is nice to have. The shield is also the best laning tool and should be the general lvl 1 spell (except for invades).
Also Tristana has a good early laning phase and neither Draven nor Varus counters Cait.
A whole lot has changes since season 3 actually. Changes that generally made a shield start a better option. Early sustain in lane has increased for supports and decreased for ADs this makes damage prevention comparatively stronger because being at low HP forces your out of lane regardless. Additionally there is more MP 5 available bottom lane which makes the mana advantages of going w less important. More importantly Ws base and scaling attributes were nerfed. (You used to get iirc twice as much move speed and slow per level) and most importantly people choose ADs less to counter the enemy lane opponent than to have late game presence, so you cannot be confident that your AD will out pick theirs if your AD has a counter pick position.
The grand "we" got into this argument in season 3 too right here in this thread back when a decent majority of high level Janna play was w max and people here didn't believe me until they tried it.
Now things have moved back a little bit from early S4 when w max was almost suicide because of the nerfs and because the power of AD self sustain outstripped your w damage and engage potential due to every AD going for a BT rush, and being early game with a lowish cd dash coupled with high damage engage or poke supports (like zyra).
Wrt ADs:
Tristana has a strong all-in but a bad early laning phase. Those things are not the same. It's why pros pick Nami with her (so Namis sustain and prevent trist from failing and because of her counter engage potential makes turning enemy lane mistakes easier) and it's why they pick Lucian against her (because he has such a strong early laning phase). Draven and Varus absolutely do counter cait. Cait cannot trade with Draven or Varus because Dravens autos are so much stronger and because Varus's autos are stronger plus he has back end damage with e/q which cait does not have. Neither of them are low enough range for cait to harass without danger and both of them have better late games even if they don't win lane super hard (which they are entirely capable of doing)
And if you don't believe me you can just go check looking to see who has the best win rates against cait (MF, corki, kink, draven in that order with almost no difference between the last three) at diamond mmr and monthly stats. Varus appears to be even but I can't actually see high mmr games since he doesn't appear in the chart unless I have all MMR included (and this is probably a function of his ideal build being so heavily nerfed)
I'm usually a lurker... but janna has been my most played champ since I've played league... and im sorry goumindong but you literally have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever actually played Janna? Ever? Because anybody that's actually played her finds out pretty quick that your shield wins the lane, and there's pretty much no exception to leveling it as support. W is her primary laning tool? You can't just walk up and w their carry without getting blown up. Unless the other duo tries to all in you and your adc, you'll never be in range to w in the first place.
Also, saying there are supports with better peel is also wrong. Janna is king of peel, and not even ali and lulu get close. They both might have better engage but neither can compete with janna when it comes to peel. The shield is not about getting popped late game, its about keeping your carry alive, over and over again. If you're purely relying on your adc to hyper carry late game, Janna is the best support in the game. She has every tool in the book to keep people off her carry and no other support can match that.
You argue that janna is only as good as her ad in lane, but that's completely false also. Janna is one of the best supports TO pick if you know your ad is going to be inexperienced or bad. She can make hard lanes into stalemates, allow your adc to farm without having to trade inefficiently, and make up for the dumb positioning a bad adc will get into. It's much more arguable that a support like leona is reliant on their adc because if they dont follow up well on her initiation, she's fucked.
Basically every thing I've said, Volband has said much more eloquently, but it's really frustrating seeing someone rant on and be completely wrong about so many things. Is janna the best support in the game? No, but a good janna player can carry a game pretty much singlehandedly in soloq.
Janna is my most played champion of all time. I win 61% of the time with her(though currently less in Season 4 due to not playing before the recent talisman changes and because of higher overall mmr to play against). Changing from E max to W max Janna(Suggested by a diamond friend on another board) carried me from Silver 1 to Plat 3 in Season 3 and has allowed me to hard carry lanes which would otherwise be uncarryable. Most of my losses as Janna in S4 were E max games at the start of the season trying to understand the new support play.(though I did have two good E max games recently due to weak lane choices by my AD, those largely turned because their AD fucked up big time)
There are times to E max (like when you're losing lane, or when the enemy's dash will negate the slow disengage/engage) but if you don't understand the power of W max and you don't understand the power differential of Janna in a strong versus weak lane then you don't really understand Janna. The most powerful thing that you can give your AD as any support is more time to auto attack the enemy AD. Bonus AD doesn't compare to extra auto attacks on anyone. That is why W max is so strong in strong lanes; it means that engages which you are winning go on longer and engages which you are losing stop faster.
Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
On September 04 2014 10:03 GolemMadness wrote: Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
mostly the latter, played by a janna main it is pretty much impossible to kill her once laning is over. And maybe even in laning as well depending on your MU.
Janna is my most played champion of all time, I won twice as many games with her than I lost this season (70% was so close ) and has a 7-2 record as well on my cousin's acc, but that was high gold. Playing her helped me from low gold to D4/3 (lazy to play the rest of my promos) in two seasons (helped from bronze to gold as well in s2, but it was a co-op job, some other champs helped me back then as well) and never really looked for advices, just watched streamers to try to get the gist of the basis of the whole game back in s2. If someone "famous" released a Janna video (like Xpecial) I watched it, but can't say I tried to follow it. The only thing I remember learning from him is the power of not using R at all. I had 2 W max games when knife gave godlike money and 2 other knife games, but I don't think it was W max, maybe some points onto it. Anyway, needless to say I did E max and start for like 98% of the games. There was one where I started Q because we got invaded. I pretty much tried to avoid playing her too much, because I did not want to be only capable of playing her at higher levels, so there were times when I only played her when the enemy was begging for a lose with their picks. Of course, I had my streams when I just enjoyed palying her more than usual and spammed her anyway, and when diamond was in reachable sight, because I wanted to tryhard as much as possible. I also used it for most of my duo games, since I'm way too afraid of messing things up when duoing, so I cope out with using my best champ, unless we are long time duo partners. /not that I duo'd much/
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken. Like, you keep saying Trist is a weak laner and she's only good because she has nice all-in when in reality Tristana is NOT a weak laner, she's one of the safest. Like what, really. That is the point where I either don't reply and let others decide, or just try to brute force my way into winning the arguement, which is not really helpful for outside readers, nor for you. Man, Tristana is the only adc I can do decent in a lane, unless I'm vs better opponents than silver, haha. No, really, it is so goddamn safe and easy to last hit with unless I'm pushed in. No one picks Trist for all-in at bot. Graves, Lucian, Corki - great all ins. Tristana ? Not so much, only a great finisher with jumping in and slowing, but that's all - this changes at lvl 6. But she is safe, and that makes her a good early adc. And no, people don't pick Nami because she needs protection, lol. They've been picking all kinds of supports to her, but Nami broke into the holy trinity of supports lately because 1. the three got nerfed 2. she was on par with them before as well (hence the nerf when the rest of them got nerfed as well), people just played the others more. Lulu was underestimated last season as well, then out of nowhere (or from Korea) BANG! Also, how many Lucian vs Tristana games did you see in NA LCS this week, where Lucian shat on Trist or kept killing her? Lucian has better mobility, better mid game and higher burst. That's it. He is a better early game champion but too bad for him, Trist is fine as well. It's up to the support anyway. Again, if you don't want to accept this fact, there are really only a few things I can do. "Many people say that tristana's early game is weak. This is definitely not true (her mid game is weak). Tristana's early game is ok. She has normal level 1 dmg. Thanks to that she stays equal after most lvl 1 trades. " - there, a quote from a d1 guide from solomid, that hopeless I am. I had my most relaxing lanes with tristanas, because it's so fucking safe and you know with every damn level you are getting closer to unleash the beast. No, unless your opponent goes reckless or do stupid things you can't really kill them, but that's not the point. And what will that homeboy Lucian will do to my Tristana? Piercing Light her? Hah, my grandmother could do a reactive shield for that. E-into her face to all in? Gj bro, a.) shield+trist q, get fucked b.) she jumps away if it's some kind of a super all-in or gank attempt from their jungler. Now look at Janna-Twitch, that's quite a mediocore lane until 6 unless you can cheese in some stealthed eye of the storm "HIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" play. Look how she oturanges 80% of adcs at lvl 2 (and some of them by lvl 1 as well), look at her escape skill, look how easy it is to push the lane with her, look how easy it is to harass with her, look how stupid face-to-face damage potential she has just by a lvl1 q with the added grievous wounds effect to negate the heal. I really give up if you stuck before the start line, because in the game you play under the name of league of legends, Tristana is a weak laner.
Countering Cait in lane??? How? How do you counter a champion designed to dominate her lane? Caitlyn walks into Draven? Varus starts with lvl 6 and can stop her from kiting? You seriously need to reevaluate some adcs strengths and weaknesses in lane. There are no real counters at bot anyway, but Cait is hands down stronger than anyone down there. The only time you can shutdown a good Cait if her support sucks (if Cait sucks then it's not a question) while you two rock. Also, she's not a terrible adc for lategame by any means, she's among the stronger ones. She has a shitty mid game if you can't keep momentum from your bot lane win. That's how she's designed: she has an easy time winning bot lane, but if she fails so she is punsihed quite hard. Most of these champions power curve explains a lot of things. If Trist was a shitty early and mid game champ, no one would play her. Same goes for Cait, if she was beatable in lane there would be absolutely no reason to play her.
"When we look at leveling up skills we don't look at the final value because that is dumb" - I like how you highlight dumb. You do realize that E only loses out -20/-5/10/25/40 value compared to W? Yes, until you reach level 5 and can put 3 points onto W, E actually "deals more damage" than W. Again, you rather put yourself out for danger to deal damage while suffering some as well, than dealing damage without receiving any at all. And I know I should explain it in greater details why E actually deals more damage (or any at all, to begin with) early on than W, but I'm tired and my experience is that it would be useless anyway, because if Trist has a weak early game, then she has a weak early game, despite no one ever thinking that way. I won't even try to compare W's slow with E's added AD because that's an even more difficult thing to explain. But to the 3rd party people lurking around: The added attack damage bonus is better than the slow. You can't do long ass chases at bot lane in 2v2, especially not when you are all lvl 3 and a cannon minion could solo half your health, while E gives you a safety way to utilize the added AD. Slow is great utility, which you only need rarely at bot lane because it's kinda static. If I plan a harder all-in or I'm vs blitz I happen to lvl W second ,but that's not the arguement right now. Slowing them already puts you in danger by the way and you immidietly lose all the mobility you gained from it. What happens if your adc derps and don't do anything with your shield? Nothing, wasted mana. What happens if your adc doesn't follow up your W (which could be more likely, because retaliating to enemy attacks are much easier than being synchronized and on the same page about making an offense)? Get wrecked, pretty much. If you want W max, then start with knife because doing it without knife is just a paradox. "Hey, I'm gonna harass them to death, so let me buy this coin for health regen, and later on, upgrade it into extra movement speed, yeah! That will show them!". Guys, we are talking about a lane where people walk away with 20 hps because the amount of surprise heals and ccs and flashes are ridiculous down there. If you want to act tough, then go tough, buy the damned knife and rambo them. To make a famous anonymous quote: "if you do something, do it right." With knife you are actually relevant vs many supports with w max, though utility ones still shit all over you, or at least they should. Also, stop at lvl 3, unless you got many kills and already bought ap, because then "if you are ahead...". And yes, I'm pretty sure I got the quote right.
"Why would it. E gives 40 HP/level and 9 AD/level. It doesn't decrease its CD it doesn't have any utility scaling. If you're maxing W you're faster, you can make picks harder, and get your move speed back faster" - Now count the amount of useless benefits you just compilated for botlane. Seriously, it's scaling runes all over again. Max W because it also makes you fast for midgame and you can pick people off? Meanwhile the enemy support is on his facebook the whole time watching you get away with it? Also, I wouldn't call saving lives "no utility". And as for the speed, get mobis, then easy life. If you don't prioritize early game you're gonna have a bad day against decent supports.
"Eye of the Storm adds 50 damage and has 500 AP to double. 500 AP to double damage is a low number, it represents low scaling, not high scaling. 300 AP to double damage is a good high scaling number." - "When I talk about E's scaling, I mean the scaling with her adc's items and levels. It gets stronger as your adc gets more aspd and critical chance. If you go ap it's straight out retarded, because ~400 ap is easily achievable, you don't even need meijai. But let's talk about a regular utility Janna." I get better and better at this, just wait and see! As I said, E is awesome late game even without ap, but since AP Janna supports are not rare at all, I included a calculation with a hybrid Janna as well. If I wanted to be mean I would've done Lemonnation's Janna with Tristana. If killing people faster is not good then I don't know what is. And don't compare it to bullshit like Lux, when Janna has all the peel of the world on top of it, And no, I don't care if Lux hits a W to 4 other team members back and forth and snares two people with the thinnest and blockable skillshot ever, because the next thing is that she wakes up dreaming if she did not ragequit after getting demolished botlane.
"Part of this is because hypercarries don't need boosts lategame. If you're in a straight up fight and your carry is doing more DPS than their carry then the way you win is by having another tank (or another lategame damage source). Janna doesn't do that." It would be great if we had a champion that not only could give an ad boosting shield like Janna, but could also peel for him.
"The other part of this is because Janna's kit falls off when the entire team starts scaling hard as explained above. The only part of Janna's kit which is lategame is her full channel ult. But if you're getting full channel ults off then the other team is really not paying attention or is totally outclassed because interrupting that should be a priority." We have a meme here in Hungary. It's about a debate between football experts who were arguing about whether the situation was a penalty or not. It was a heated arguement, and the one who was against the penalty asked the pro-penalty guy this: "and what if we switch the roles, so the defender was the striker, and the striker was the defender?". He said it's a penalty as well. Then the other guy said that "then now I stand up and walk out of the studio, for real". This is how I feel right now. Pretty much this is why I didn't want to reply at all but since other's showed they are paying attention, I might as well, someone is bound to learn something from it. Anyway, Janna is crazy good late game and after hearing you discredit almost everything she does I'm at a loss why are you even playing her. I like late game with Janna because I know it's almost entirely up to my performance if we win or not, unless someone yolo suicides. First of all, Janna's passive is at it's highest potential as everyone has lvl2 or even alacricity enchanted boots, so they get more out of it. Her adc is at his strongest, so her E reached it's strongest point as well. It is extremely rewarding to keep on the shield, especially with Ardent Censer. And last but not least, you reach the queen of peel status. You can talk all about Lulus and Alistar all you want, Janna is T.H.E. late game peeler monster. No, when the fight starts you don't sweat trying to ult 5 people to heal them back. No, you know the golden rule of using ult in a late game teamfight: 1. save the carry 2. do anything else. Three people are in the middle of a huge aoe shitstorm but an assassin is on the dick of your adc? No question what you do: ult the assassin away immidietly. Your ult is not in reach for him but it is for your other 3 teammembers who are suffering? You know what to do, son: flash towards your adc so you can ult the assassin away. She wants to flash back? Cute, tornado. Meanwhile permaslow with W and bodyblock all you can while using your items at the right time. Hell, sacrifice yourself, even if you have the opportunity to shield yourself, just give it to him. That 5-6 items adc can win the game for you for carrying his sorry ass in lane and giving him the easiest teamfights ever, but that Maokai eating all the other deeps is only good for one thing: eating all the deeps. If you have an assassin then he has to get the job done, not surviving it. If you have some melee carries then your ult is shit anyway unless the terrain favours you heavily. But even then, it's their support and tanks vs them. In these late game fights priorities are straight: kill the carries. Janna has all of her strength in being able to defend people, especially a selected one. That's it. You don' only undervalue Janna's kit as it is, you discredit her monsoon so much. One of the most broken skills in the game, and a skill I could write twice as much as I did in the last two pages combined. An amazing skill.
"This is why W is Janna's primary power tool in lane. Because if the enemy wants to continue to prosecute a trade, it cannot when its slowed and cannot move into range." Or just hit tornado. Also, if you hit W to stop them peskering your adc they will just turn on you.
"And when you want to continue to prosecute a trade they cannot refuse because they're slowed and cannot move out of range." Do you... do you know E gives a shield too? Shield = extra autoattacks from relative safety without the risk of getting out losing from a trade because your adc has an extra 80/120/160/whatever life they have to peel through first to deal real damage. It's literally what I highlighted from that paragraph and you literally gave me an answer where you say bonus ad is not as good for trading as the slow.
"I am not saying that Janna is bad. Indeed her shield is very strong, her peel is very strong, her ability to be mobile with her carry in the mid game is very valuable. But what I am saying is that Janna is not the lategame hypercarry booster you think she is." - Let me sum it up. Janna is an early game beast support (not the best though) who is best suited for early game ad carries, and not even Cait can give her a hard time, because you just need a Draven or Varus to counter her; Janna has nice mid game utility with the movement speed aura and the extra mobility place wards and W random people to kill them (not the best picker though). She has an okay peel (not the best though), and she is rather meh at late game, especially with superscaling, absolute monster adcs, but if you happen to full channel an ult late game for your teammates you might be relevant in that certain teamfight.
"[...]but if you don't understand the power of W max and you don't understand the power differential of Janna in a strong versus weak lane then you don't really understand Janna." I guess I do not.
On September 04 2014 10:03 GolemMadness wrote: Holy crap what is going on in this thread. I don't play Janna, but it looks like she's suddenly becoming pretty popular in high elo. Why is mejai's so common on her? It looks like everybody's building it, but I don't think any other supports build it. Is it just because of the AP ratio on shield and her mobility making her harder to kill?
Its really hard to die on Janna if you're smart(also true of say Lux, which is why Mejai's is popular on her too) in this meta which lacks hard engages and this makes stacking items really strong. Even if you don't finish it its usually worth 5-15 stacks by the end of the game which is 60 to 120 AP for ~1500 gold.
On September 04 2014 10:31 Volband wrote:
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken.
To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write.
Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken.
To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write.
Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
That's not dumb at all. There is a difference between an argument being valid and an argument being sound. Volband's statement claims that your argument would not be sound, even if it was valid. That is, he disagrees with (at least one of) the premises. And disagreeing with premises is certainly allowed in a discussion.
For what it's worth, from looking through a bunch of pro games, it looks like they max E in around 90% of games. Xpecial and LemonNation maxed W once and PoohManDu did a couple of times, but in around 40 other games I looked at everyone maxed E.
If you disagree with a premise typically you would explain which premise you disagree with. My premises are basically hard coded into the game which makes it strange to disagree with them. Unless you think that caits auto animation is short enough to prevent Draven from walking 75 units.
Yes that is me. I didn't make my experience a secret. I have about 400-500 ranked support games under my belt and about 120 of them are with Janna. Much higher than the 80 I have on morgana and a far cry from the "lol do you even play Janna you scrub" that evilmonkey claimed. (Though ironically the last 4 of those Janna wins have been E max, but not much else you can do playing against Lucian or Nami)
Anyway on to less dick cheerleading and more talking about Janna.
Volband you like boot Janna and pick up censor. Have you considered instead of censor you pickup morello? I was in a game that was ending and wanted to grab as much cdr as I could before the last fight so my item set was talisman, mejai, sight, codex, and the 10% cdr mana item which builds into chalice and talisman. I was going to go my normal route of censor and spooky but look at that those items combine into morello.
It seems to be that the games you're in when you don't pick up mikaels because you don't need it you could sub the censor for morello. Get to 40% cdr faster and have more AP. You can do this because you don't need the move speed on ghosts or censor if you've got boots and talisman (though losing the sg active is a rough loss)
You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
The main problem with many of your arguements is that you are wrong from the very start, so even if your arguement might be solid, it's built on something broken.
To be honest this is where i stopped reading. If you think that my position is axiomatically wrong then there is no point. The quoted sentence is so dumb frankly i cannot be bothered to read anything else you write.
Yes, i know you play a lot of Janna. I am capable of looking people up. The only reason why i brought my experience into it was because Evilmonkey was not capable of looking people up.
What is this cope-out? I said the basis for most of your arguements are wrong and then I explained them thoroughly. If you want to switch to girl-mode, fine, but then what's the point in participating an arguement. Not that I won't survive it, I mentioned in my not-read post as well that it was partially for the outside readers.
On September 04 2014 20:41 Goumindong wrote: Volband you like boot Janna and pick up censor. Have you considered instead of censor you pickup morello? I was in a game that was ending and wanted to grab as much cdr as I could before the last fight so my item set was talisman, mejai, sight, codex, and the 10% cdr mana item which builds into chalice and talisman. I was going to go my normal route of censor and spooky but look at that those items combine into morello.
It seems to be that the games you're in when you don't pick up mikaels because you don't need it you could sub the censor for morello. Get to 40% cdr faster and have more AP. You can do this because you don't need the move speed on ghosts or censor if you've got boots and talisman (though losing the sg active is a rough loss)
First of all, Ghosts are situational and I advise omitting it.
I only buy Morello if they have swain or mundo, but that doesn't necessary mean I always buy it when they are against me. I have a 100% loss rate vs Swains anyway, so fuck them. For me, Morello gives no utility, and morello+talisman+mastery is already 35% cdr, so unless I'm going full ap after that (in which case I'd run 5% cdr runes to round it up, or take the offensive cdr mastery as well), it's overkill. Everything I'd buy (Ardent, Mikael, Zeke, Frozen Heart, Locket) would just make me cross the 40%cdr threshold all the faster. Yes, eventually I'll get into overkill cdr territory, but I see no use in early max cdr. I value my items effects higher; also, stuff like FH and Locket helps me to stay alive to utilize that 20-30% cdr, unlike a fast Morello.
As for Ardent and Morello... Morello gives more ap, but unless I'm peeling off mundos or aatroxes, I don't find its passive valuable. Ardent is just a too good all-around item for me, gives everything I need, and I love the passive. I don't know the meaning of "too much movement speed"; the more the better. Also, mobis deactivate in fights so other movement speed enhancing items/abilities become more valuable. I'm pretty sue that is the reason some Janna runs boots of swiftness because they can remain fast in teamfights as well. And don't forget Ardent's passive which is great to snowball leads and becomes all the better with time passing.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote: You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
Yes, because forcing unfavorable trades, denying enemy pokes while strengthening yours is just too mainstream. You have to start with knife and do stuff!
Nope, and not sure how it is logical. If you want to feel like you are playing Nami/Lulu/Sona-light then by all means, buy knife, that's one way to have presence in the lane, but coin is just as great as well, if not better. Which one is better is kinda up to who are you with and against, but coin is definetly the safest one and the hardest to do fuckups with. With the added movement speed, it actually gained some laning power as well.
Saying not starting with knife is dumb is just as ridiculously dumb as saying not starting with coin is dumb. I mean, we are back to the level where you imply Janna can't do stuff in lane without knife. Right. Now all we need is the return of that guy who explained how Janna is shit all around and her Q is useless and needs an ap ratio increase.
On September 05 2014 02:18 nafta wrote: Spellthief like 99% of support players.
I love how this post is 100% inaccurate, haha. But all right, link me the knife challanger Jannas, I link you the coin challanger ones and abracadabra, we can arrive back to ground zero. Hell, there are a third type of Jannas who goes knife but upgrades it to frostqueen, and the 4th type are the ones who switch it up. But yes, 99%. I appreciate your sense of humor.
On September 05 2014 02:40 RouaF wrote: I really prefer coin on nami and janna though... but I guess it is personal preference.
Exactly. After I checked challanger Jannas I thoguht to myself "wow, so many item paths, interesting! I guess she's the only one high elo people use both coin and knife!" then the first thing I saw in some challanger stream is a coin Nami. Interesting! I like to keeeel people botlane with Nami so knife is essential for me there.
On September 05 2014 04:36 loSleb wrote: Thought so, it's also what I did anyway. But I also went Morello and Deathcap into DFG after that.
Don't worry, 99% of Jannas go the same way. knife-morello-dc-dfg, basic stuff. Try intro bots with Janna, the announcer doesn't let you buy coin. If you keep clicking on it she calls you dumb and kicks you. Kinda harsh!
On a more seriouse note, you describe a pure ap janna playstyle and I can't even say "the", because as I've seen Zhonya is more common to pure aps. Going utility very rarely involves those items. It's a different playstyle where those items are obsolete compared to their utility counterparts.
Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin.Also it gives ms after you complete it.That is much later than I am talking about.
I just don't understand how do you even lane.Do you just stand behind your ad 24/7 and shield?Tell me sometime when you play so I can spectate and see because I have never seen a game where knife is not a better start than coin.
You can even start relic shield which is stronger in lane.Even for said playstyle it would be superior to coin.
On September 05 2014 02:18 nafta wrote: Spellthief like 99% of support players.
I don't have a personal grudge with you.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote: You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
And I know I'm investing way too much just to clear up this mess I could walk away from freely.
On September 05 2014 03:15 nafta wrote: You start spellthief so you can actually do stuff in lane and then sell it later.That is what I like to do as well and is the most logical thing.Starting coin is just dumb.
But I'm way too passionate about Janna and I like to help others. So, without further ado...
CHALLENGER EDITION: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Cypress : Only looking at her items I can guarantee you that if you want to see my playstyle with Janna in a better edition, just watch this guy (who is - to my knowledge - actually a girl). This seems like a bold statement, not seeing her play Janna ever, but items tell everything. She plays the slave-game; a playstyle which gave me enough experience and confidence to try to correct Goumindong's statement about Janna's late game and shield power. If someone were to argue whether you should go for Zhonya's or Rylai or DFG or whatever on ap Janna, I would be waaaaaaaaay less sure about myself, and I probably avoid the topic altogether, because I know my suggestions would be only based on a theoretical level, which is so much inferior to when you actually play it. tl;dr: coin über alles, according to this challanger player
EUROPE WEST - Diamond 1 Jannas who do not start with knife: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Lex Silentae : there are some knife starts to be fair http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=IfIdieItsLag: COINS EVERYWHERE (check deeper for shorter games where it's obvious he did not sell knifes for talis). I hate Jannas with ionian boots being their standard boots, but there you go, another type of Janna. You see, even if we start with the same gold item, we can play much differently. http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Kryton13 coin coin coin all over again. It's hard to concentrate on the coins though with those IBGs, haha.
EUROPE NORDIC AND EAST (aka best server, no questions asked) - Diamon... ah, you know it! http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Sumsum Talisman rushes into Ardent. Classic Janna. For those already getting the idea that knife is in fact, not superior, check out her boots. Mercury or Ninjas. So underrated, howewer they are great buys especially if you are rushing Tali into Ardent. Won't encourage anyone to do it, I'm a mobi-guy myself, but it's good to keep your minds expanded; I get them as well occasionally. http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Thamyon coin coin ... of course, but also a Janna who seems to like Twin Shadows and has an obsession with Zeke's as well. I love Zeke's, but hate to build it when I'm behind. http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Support Bunny coin coin coin
CHALLENGER EDITION (kinda): http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=쿤냐앙 well, he's at 98 LP, not sure if I can check whether he was challenger at one point or not (prolly yes), but a challenger contender nonetheless. Good luck dude! Also, nice coins you have there.
So, what is my point here? That Coin >>>>>>>>> Knife on Janna? No, not at all. I personally detest coin on Janna, but can't argue that it has its' uses, especially if it fits your playstyle more. I could list just as many d1/challenger Jannas who actually prefer knife. My point is that you, nafta, should not make such confident statements in a thread where lower elo players-, or players who'd just like to pick up Janna now are searching for answers. You use damn obnoxious statements, like "99%"; "dumb" or my newfound best "You can even start relic shield which is stronger in lane.Even for said playstyle it would be superior to coin." ---> You do not only say that targon Janna > coin Janna (which itself would worth a report, because it's really not the thread to troll about these things, some players do not know better), but you are actually telling me it would fit my playstyle better as well. I'm really curious now at what level do you main Janna to make such statements. You are either trolling way too hard or just not experienced enough. I mean, your targon Janna sentence folowed up one where you literally said "Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin" - Thresh, Ali, Leona...? Also, you only need to spend 500 gold on coin to gain ms from it.
On September 05 2014 08:57 nafta wrote: I just don't understand how do you even lane.Do you just stand behind your ad 24/7 and shield?Tell me sometime when you play so I can spectate and see because I have never seen a game where knife is not a better start than coin.
It is really up to the champions and their players at bot. I'm at my best when our opponents try to brute force us, but yes, there are lanes where you just shield your adc and he slowly but surely chips them away, but even these lanes can differ. If your opponents are afraid to do anything, then you just spam shield when you see a good opportunity for your adc to poke/go in, while in trade heavy lanes you have to be perfect on your timing.
As for standing behind your adc as support: no, you never do that unless you are Thresh or Blitz, but especially not if you are Janna. You have to be close to your adc for reactive tornadoes or monsoons, and if you have all your potions then you have to go in and do stupid trades anyway by yourself if your adc is weakened.
On September 05 2014 08:57 nafta wrote: Knife is strictly better for laning for every single champion in the game than coin.Also it gives ms after you complete it.That is much later than I am talking about.
No, its not. Knife gives you 30 damage/wave if you can get the procs off. coin gives you 30 Hp/wave if you can stand near creeps.
in general laning coin will beat knife just because 30 damage < 30 health due to resistances even with the 5 AP advantage.
The only reason to go knife into coin is if you beileve that you can
A: All in better and so stack the 30 damage up front for value
B: get enough gold from knife that selling it doesn't put you back relative to coin (this is surprisingly hard)
I find that I am more successful on most champions (even champions like, Morg) with coin starts nowadays. The 10 move speed on the upgrade is really nice and the gold and sustain are consistent and powerful.
Part of this is because Nomad's Medallion has a lot more trading power than Frostfang (I.E. the first upgrade paths). Frostfang is 10 AP and 45 damage/wave. Nomads is 5 HP/5 and 60 HP/Wave. The 5 HP/5 adds another 30 HP a wave. Which means that the enemy frost fang user has to make up 45 damage per wave with their trades (before considering resistances!). 45 damage is a lot more poke damage than 10 AP provides so its pretty clear that in raw trades here Coin/Medallion is superior. Though again, Frost fang is better in initial all-ins the extra sustain from Medallion actually makes it better than Frostfang if you have to poke before doing your all in (because the sustain will negate the HP differential after a single wave).
If you think that knife is strictly better than laning you simply must not have done the math on it. If you're ever sitting in lane with 3 charges of Frostfang or Knife which you cannot use for some reason (enemy isn't there, you can't get close enough to safely use it) then coin is almost strictly better. Coin is amazing for lane, its especially amazing on champions without innate sustain which have good disengage to make use of it. All of which describes Janna very well.
On September 05 2014 08:19 Volband wrote: I only buy Morello if they have swain or mundo, but that doesn't necessary mean I always buy it when they are against me. I have a 100% loss rate vs Swains anyway, so fuck them. For me, Morello gives no utility, and morello+talisman+mastery is already 35% cdr, so unless I'm going full ap after that (in which case I'd run 5% cdr runes to round it up, or take the offensive cdr mastery as well), it's overkill. Everything I'd buy (Ardent, Mikael, Zeke, Frozen Heart, Locket) would just make me cross the 40%cdr threshold all the faster. Yes, eventually I'll get into overkill cdr territory, but I see no use in early max cdr. I value my items effects higher; also, stuff like FH and Locket helps me to stay alive to utilize that 20-30% cdr, unlike a fast Morello.
That makes sense. I usually avoid other CDR items once I hit 40%. (and i run 9/0/21 so i don't have to run CDR in masteries I can run more efficient defensive runes). But if i was going to go into Zekes, FH, Locket anyway i would definitely skip morello.
My general item path is Talisman -> Mikael/Censor depending on enemy team -> Finish 10% CDR item depending on enemy team. If I need picks then its Ghosts. If i need AoE tank then its Locket. If its armor defensive then i bite the bullet and get FH. But i wouldn't stack over 40% I would just go right into raw AP/tank after that.
The reason Morello looks good on that is if you're in a game where you don't really need locket/mikaels/ghosts then what options do you have? You can go Censor and then another 10% AP item, or you can go morello and right into the non-CDR items you would get earlier. The point wasn't to abuse the passive on Morello, but to abuse the ease at which it gets you to 40% CDR and its strong build path in games where you don't need the utility of the other CDR options. The extra AP on it is just icing.
It's hard to concentrate on the coins though with those IBGs, haha.
Now i feel dumb for not thinking of IBG as the third 10% CDR item to buy if i am looking for armor. Its got a slow, its got AP, its got armor, its got mana and CDR. Its perfect
Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.png context : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
(how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
You make catches and exploit twitches high burst and surprise with the shield. You're going to trade poorly in lane early but you're mainly just waiting until 6 to wreck where, even if you're behind, the raw stats from twitches ult, Q and Janna shield will get you kills.
On September 24 2014 04:48 RouaF wrote: So I'm not going to post a wall of text because I'm quite sure this thread has had enough in the last 2 pages :D
Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.png context : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
The mreg is pretty standart.You get so much ms anyway.However not running mr vs kog/nami is either expecting to 2v1 or plain disrespect lol.The tw/janna lane pretty much can't even farm if the kog/nami play correctly.
On September 24 2014 04:48 RouaF wrote: So I'm not going to post a wall of text because I'm quite sure this thread has had enough in the last 2 pages :D
Here is Janna by mata http://i.imgur.com/2Mi9vYD.png context : Janna/Twitch vs Kog/Nami (Samsung White vs EDG) As you can see he obviously maxes shield. I'm not sure if he always plays with 3 points in mana regen and 0 in the movement speed mastery (which seems awesome to me on janna) but it might be because he knew the lane would be very hard (how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
The mreg is pretty standart.You get so much ms anyway.However not running mr vs kog/nami is either expecting to 2v1 or plain disrespect lol.The tw/janna lane pretty much can't even farm if the kog/nami play correctly.
(how the heck do you win with twitch janna against kog nami ?_?)
You make catches and exploit twitches high burst and surprise with the shield. You're going to trade poorly in lane early but you're mainly just waiting until 6 to wreck where, even if you're behind, the raw stats from twitches ult, Q and Janna shield will get you kills.
Well yeah it doesn't make sense to max W on Janna when you have a level 6 graves burst and an AD assassin jungler (meteos built full glass cannon that game).
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/OPPHn.png)
![[image loading]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/MpreSSKahna/wards.jpg)
) and was looking for some feedback on the build/runes I usually go on her.
) and has a 7-2 record as well on my cousin's acc, but that was high gold. Playing her helped me from low gold to D4/3 (lazy to play the rest of my promos) in two seasons (helped from bronze to gold as well in s2, but it was a co-op job, some other champs helped me back then as well) and never really looked for advices, just watched streamers to try to get the gist of the basis of the whole game back in s2. If someone "famous" released a Janna video (like Xpecial) I watched it, but can't say I tried to follow it. The only thing I remember learning from him is the power of not using R at all. I had 2 W max games when knife gave godlike money and 2 other knife games, but I don't think it was W max, maybe some points onto it. Anyway, needless to say I did E max and start for like 98% of the games. There was one where I started Q because we got invaded. I pretty much tried to avoid playing her too much, because I did not want to be only capable of playing her at higher levels, so there were times when I only played her when the enemy was begging for a lose with their picks. Of course, I had my streams when I just enjoyed palying her more than usual and spammed her anyway, and when diamond was in reachable sight, because I wanted to tryhard as much as possible. I also used it for most of my duo games, since I'm way too afraid of messing things up when duoing, so I cope out with using my best champ, unless we are long time duo partners. /not that I duo'd much/
