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On November 27 2013 07:28 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote:
So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice? 9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%. Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options. Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities. Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus. Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE). Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote:
Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase
b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously
c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
Kassadin, Thresh, Janna, Lucian, Evelyn, Renekton, Rengar, Riven
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game.
These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too.
Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics.
http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna#statistics
Janna's win rate has dropped dramatically since patch pi and her play rate has stayed the same.
"Just so stories" are rationalizations that can be applied to any situation to justify a belief.
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Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
Yes and no. The codex will move you from 30 to 40% cdr. This is effectively 16% more shields and 16% more of your primary nuke (since you only have one) that in itself is efficient*. Eventually it upgrades to dfg (ie single slot max AP item) which makes it super efficient.
* its worth about 57 AP for your shield not counting any other AP you have. Making the final effective AP to be about 87. Which is pretty decent in and of itself.
The other thing is that Janna scales very hard on cdr because she is so cc dependent and at some point you will have enough AP that it is unlikely your shield(at least the second one) will be broken in 5 seconds. Without cdr this gives enemies between 2 and 5 seconds to get damage in on your champions when you cannot protect them. 40% cdr takes this down to 1 second. Halving the time your adc spends exposed.
The only reason you upgrade it last is because you don't really need the dfg active and because you don't have boots you aren't slot constrained. Getting to dcap and zhonyas earlier is typically better.
Sightstone, morello, codex, gold item, you still have two slots for the components of deathcap and another NLR to turn into Zhonya. Through dfg before zhonya is not bad either i tend to value the defensive active higher over more ap at that point.
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Well Janna's lowered winrate is quite obvious because she was nerfed terribly in the 3.14 patch. While the patch should have been the rise of OP Janna support (because she was almost undeniably the #1 support at using farm). However, Riot anticipated this, and thus significantly nerfed the power of her passive, Q, and W. The scaling cc change is really bizarre, so they really made her weakest part even weaker, and let other supports really scale up with janna in ways they never could before.
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc
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On November 27 2013 13:04 xes wrote:
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Except everyone looked at the Janna Changes before they went through and expected them to be nerfs.
Unless us expecting nerfs resulted in a mind-nerf.
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On November 27 2013 07:38 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 07:28 Goumindong wrote:On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote:
So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice? 9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%. Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options. Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities. Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus. Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE). Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does. Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats. Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote:
Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase
b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously
c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
Kassadin, Thresh, Janna, Lucian, Evelyn, Renekton, Rengar, Riven
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game. These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too. Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics. http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna#statisticsJanna's win rate has dropped dramatically since patch pi and her play rate has stayed the same."Just so stories" are rationalizations that can be applied to any situation to justify a belief.
It never occured to you that some might have left her out due to nerfs and some took her in believing that she would be stronger with gold scaling?
It's okay if you think win rates are that important, but it shouldn't make it or break it for champions, that's just dumb. I also believe that many support players left out the traditional supports for more AP-oriented supports. I personally think Janna's more than fine, just give it some time. They did some serious changes for the support role in general, people are still experimenting and it's way too early to jump into conclusions that she sucks, just because she gets picked 3-4% less than previously.
On November 27 2013 07:28 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote:
So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice? 9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%. Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options. Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities. Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus. Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE). Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does.
Why is 10% cdr so important? 9 in offensive means going for that shitty AP point yea? Why would you do that?
W max, again why? Shield is way more important in trades imo, not only for the shield but also for the additional AD.
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On November 27 2013 15:07 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 07:38 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 27 2013 07:28 Goumindong wrote:On November 22 2013 04:07 TheDougler wrote:
So Janna seems pretty good in this new patch!
Trying to figure out an optimum build but there's just so many options now... Any advice? 9/0/21. You want 10% cdr from masteries just like last season this lets you get Athens or morello and a codex to hit 40%. Don't build boots just rush AP(cap/zhonya/dfg in that order) after your morello/pimp cup and sight stone. .7 is still good scaling on the shield so every point of AP is worth a lot more effective health than most tank options. Max w first because while they nerfed the base values and scaling it's still got the best base value per level of her abilities. Run heal against AOE and exhaust against dives and peel peel peel. I haven't played a lot of Janna since the changes or updated my guide for season 4 yet (and am on a phone so can't) but the basic idea remains the same as support Janna in season 3. Get a dumb amount of ap and shield your carry for 600+ hp every 6 seconds. If that isn't enough you ult to heal back 1000 hp in an AOE and laugh all the way to the enemy nexus. Pick Janna in lanes your adc has a clear advantage in because Janna has weak laning. Pick Janna against teams with a large amount of assassins. Do not pick Janna into linear AOE comps (your heal is ok but I you either knock no one back or get caught in the enemies AOE). Because of Janna's weak laning and reduced scaling I believe she is weak compared to many other "supports" right now. The amount of free gold makes it too easy to run a proper mid or brawler or tank in the role who will be stronger in lane and provide more engage or general "must deal with" potential than Janna does. Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats. On November 27 2013 04:04 Sponkz wrote:
Bro, stop bothering about win percentages. I saw some guy in GD saying that Evelyn lost abit on her win-rate too but think about it for a second.
Champion X is OP. If this is true then the following statements can be applied:
a) The overall popularity of the champion increase
b) Banning of Champion X will be higher than previously
c) People that doesn't play the role Champion X fits, will play Champion X whenever they are forced to play that role.
Giving these statements it's safe to assume that people will look towards champion X as their salvation whenever they are being forced into a role they're not comfortable with. Here's a short list of champions that easily fill this category as of patch Pi (3.14):
Kassadin, Thresh, Janna, Lucian, Evelyn, Renekton, Rengar, Riven
What all these champions, with the exception of Janna, have in common is that they're fairly picked, they've continuously proven themselves worthy as picks in tournaments (See this weekend's IEM) and they are generally strong champions through-out the game. So when your 5th pick is forced into playing mid and kassadin is open for some reason and nobody picked him, they will pick him, believing that the "OP-ness" will carry them.
For Janna however i think it's more in the line of having to play support to begin with. The most common "noob" picks from my experience are Thresh and Blitzcrank (Sona too before Patch Pi). Janna now joined this group of champions, because she's fairly straight forward in lane, she's safe (you don't die alot unless you like walking into the enemy) and her scaling is good throughout the game. These are all "just so stories". They explain the situation but they do not necessarily prove why win rates have changed. People do this when win rates go up and when they go down too. Proving causation is damn difficult in complex situations. I have my own "just so story" that I often use: A champion that is overpowered will eventually level out to a 50% win rate given enough time as people learn to deal with the champion and as people climb rank due to that champion. I can only point you to the statistics. http://www.lolking.net/champions/janna#statisticsJanna's win rate has dropped dramatically since patch pi and her play rate has stayed the same."Just so stories" are rationalizations that can be applied to any situation to justify a belief. It never occured to you that some might have left her out due to nerfs and some took her in believing that she would be stronger with gold scaling? It's okay if you think win rates are that important, but it shouldn't make it or break it for champions, that's just dumb. I also believe that many support players left out the traditional supports for more AP-oriented supports. I personally think Janna's more than fine, just give it some time. They did some serious changes for the support role in general, people are still experimenting and it's way too early to jump into conclusions that she sucks, just because she gets picked 3-4% less than previously.
I was commenting on win rate not pick rate...
That good Jannas are switching away from Janna because they heard she's nerfed is another "just so story."
I'll still play Janna at least a few more times. She's been an amazing support, fun and useful, and I'm hoping people just don't realize to build some AP on her.
Problem is if she's got a ton of AP she can't just throw her ult out as a disengage and stop the channel, she'll want to get the most out of it. And her allies will want to stand in it. People aren't used to caring about the healing portion of Janna's ult.
Looking at the numbers I don't think she got nerfed that hard.
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Yeah i know you were commenting on win rate, read again.
Let's just agree that we disagree
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Why is 10% cdr so important? 9 in offensive means going for that shitty AP point yea? Why would you do that?
W max, again why? Shield is way more important in trades imo, not only for the shield but also for the additional AD.
10% cdr is important because let lets you get your shield and w up faster. It allows you to build all of the max AP items and still get 40% cdr with only one of the 20% cdr items. 40% cdr is important because shield uptime is key to Janna and AP is critical because of shield strength.
Max w because Jesus Christ look at your abilities! Generally you want to maximize the thing which gives you the most benefit per level. Most of the time this is a simple check because you can look at the cdr of abilities and see which one has the most combined effective damage.
Maxing shield gives you 40 shield and 10 ad bonus. An Ad bonus which you generally wont be able to use because you lose the ad when the shield is down and the shield will almost guaranteed to be burst through until you have ap. Additionally the skill costs more.
Maxing Zephyr gives you 55 damage per level. It gives you 2% move speed per level. It gives your slow another 4% slow per level. It reduces the cd of the ability by 1'second per level (down to 8). You trade better with w because of the increased base damage, move speed which let's you dictate engagements easier, a slow which helps you generate picks and prosecute trades which end up favorable, and cdr to do it faster.
Your adc will have life steal or some extra form of sustain (and you will too if you're double targon). So it's more important to do more damage in a spike and so be ahead of the enemy lane than it is to prevent the top end of your hp from being removed (ie you don't waste your sustain)
You are right in that you don't need the AP from offense as Janna but i fail to see any reason why you would not want it. And would go for the relatively poor early defensive masteries( since you can't get the bonus hp without losing the cdr). And because AP makes you trade better than the minus damage masteries.
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Yeah i'm looking at the abilities and still wondering why on earth you would max W. Lvl 1 E is 80 shield and 14 AD while lvl 5 E is 240 shield with 50 AD. 50 AD is worth 1800 gold, are you telling me seriously that you think W's 280 magic damage is worth more than that? If you were playing AP mid i would totally agree that W max seems the best, but from a duo-synergy perspective where you're going to play with an AD Carry that builds multiplicative scaling items it's a riddle to me why you undervalue raw AD with such a potent shield. It seems that you wanna do initial burst for poking, but in higher levels of play, Janna is merely a back-ground baby sitter that boosts and peels for her AD Carry in lane. If you think about it, you will have to go into near melee range to use W, try doing that against zyra/thresh/blitz/taric/leona. It won't go that well.
I think 9 offensive is worse than 9 defensive. If you need that last 5% CDR i would really recommend you to get it from runes. I do not think 10% cdr from masteries/runes is needed though, but you seem to favor a more AP-oriented build where my only AP item usually is Athene's Unholy Grail and then i build tanky/utility items afterwards.
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On November 27 2013 17:21 Sponkz wrote:
Yeah i know you were commenting on win rate, read again.
Let's just agree that we disagree
Sure.
On CDR:
If you're going to go 9/0/21 for 10% cdr, why not make up the last 10% with scaling cdr runes. That way you'll reach 10% cdr from the runes at level 18, while also not going over the 40% cdr cap.
Or if you need 40% sooner get 15% from cdr boots, 5% from runes, and 20% from grail. I don't think Janna's the best carrier of DFG since 2 of her abilities do no damage to amplify the active and Q isn't a reliably nuke. Finally, Talisman of Ascension gives you 20% CDR and Face of the mountain gives you 10% CDR. I'd go for one of those before getting codex. Surprised Ashe's claim doesn't provide CDR.
On November 27 2013 09:03 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +
Aren't you kind of wasting the cdr though? That codex is going to be really slot inefficient till you finish it, and when you do finish it, that's 10% cdr that could have been spent on other stats.
Yes and no. The codex will move you from 30 to 40% cdr. This is effectively 16% more shields and 16% more of your primary nuke (since you only have one) that in itself is efficient*. Eventually it upgrades to dfg (ie single slot max AP item) which makes it super efficient. * its worth about 57 AP for your shield not counting any other AP you have. Making the final effective AP to be about 87. Which is pretty decent in and of itself. The other thing is that Janna scales very hard on cdr because she is so cc dependent and at some point you will have enough AP that it is unlikely your shield(at least the second one) will be broken in 5 seconds. Without cdr this gives enemies between 2 and 5 seconds to get damage in on your champions when you cannot protect them. 40% cdr takes this down to 1 second. Halving the time your adc spends exposed. The only reason you upgrade it last is because you don't really need the dfg active and because you don't have boots you aren't slot constrained. Getting to dcap and zhonyas earlier is typically better. Sightstone, morello, codex, gold item, you still have two slots for the components of deathcap and another NLR to turn into Zhonya. Through dfg before zhonya is not bad either i tend to value the defensive active higher over more ap at that point.
That 16% is incredibly backloaded.
I will agree 40% CDR is awesome.
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The 16% isn't backloaded. You get 10% out of the gate. The margin just increases as the game goes on.
5% cdr from runes is more expensive than 5% cdr from masteries. 5% cdr from runes will cost you 15 AP(or Your AP blues) which beats the three damage per attack you lose from the defensive masteries
Typically I get q,e r>w>e>q. The first level of shield is very strong. It's got twice the effect per level as the other levels. The second level is weak it's got half the effect that a level of w has.
Yes it provides 9 damage per level of ad. But you can't effectively use that because it only lasts as long as the shield is up. Enemies have two responses to a shield Janna puts up. They either burst it down or they run.
If they burst it down congrats you've got no value from the ad. If they run congrats you've got no value from the ad. If you max w they cannot run.
Yes it's got 9 ad per level but by the mid game you're not fast enough without boots making you spend an extra 1000 gold on a slot inefficient item. The w max gets you closer to deathcap et al the extra Ap you get from skipping boots is at minimum 40 (blasting wand) and realistically more due to the way item breakpoints work. This is worth 1 to 2 free levels of e.
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But how exactly are you using W in lane to harass? Like i said, taric/thresh/blitz/leona/zyra will PUNISH you over and over untill you realize how bad W max is for duo lanes.
You shouldn't pop the shield and then force a fight, you should use your shield to counter a fight from the enemy! Janna is all about counter-play and disengaging which is why the freaking shield is so broken. Say a Taric tries to stun your ADC, all it takes is shield+Q and you're winning the trade. You shouldn't look at it from a scaling PoV but rather see it as a power-tool for your AD carry in and after laning phase.
I really don't feel slow and i assume the 1000 gold you're talking about is for boots5 yeah? Why is that suddenly so bad a purchase? Do you have other boots in mind, if so which? How exactly are you able to afford Athene's Unholy Grail+DFG+Deathcap? I mean sure, if it goes past the 40 minute mark you may be able to get these 3 items but by that time you're level 18 anyways so you will not have to worry about scaling on your abilities anyways.
How are you able to get away with AP blues and W max? Are you playing normals or ranked? What rating are you having success with this?
Oh and now that i thought through this (deja vu), i realize i had this discussion with you in the Sona thread. Didn't you learn from this already? Back then you claimed that W max Janna could beat Sona in lane and all you provided was some shitty math and 1 replay with a complete moron you raped in lane. How are you backing this play-style up?
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How do you use your shield to harass any of those champions? Eat a stun and their full burst combo then have a 60 damage w if you're not already dead?
It works the same way it works for those lanes except your shield is a bit weaker so your adc has to use a bit of their sustain. You w on the back end of the fight or as they're going in. You come out better in the trade by having a stronger w. The only times you're not is if they have a massive sustain advantage or if it's not a trade and you're just shielding damage.
I am doing this in plat(same place I beat that sona iirc). Though I did not play as much once I made it would have been possible to get diamond with a bit of mechanical work. I am still getting 2x as much lp for a win as a loss so i expect my mmr to be somewhere in the plat 1 to 3 range.
I put a value of 1000 out because it's about what boots run. Only merc treads and sorc shoes are more and only zerks are less. While it's not common to get to full build if you don't then you don't have to worry about the slot efficiency of the codex.
I don't understand your question about boots. Boots Janna is faster than no boots Janna. no boots Janna is just fast enough to not need boots (faster than your adc/mid with boots 2) so might as well get some ap instead and make your shield stronger. If you're not maxing w you will not be fast enough without boots for the midgame. So at level 9-13 when you are now maxing w and I am now maxing e I will have the raw power advantage for team fights and skirmishes.
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On November 28 2013 02:23 Goumindong wrote:
The 16% isn't backloaded. You get 10% out of the gate. The margin just increases as the game goes on.
5% cdr from runes is more expensive than 5% cdr from masteries. 5% cdr from runes will cost you 15 AP(or Your AP blues) which beats the three damage per attack you lose from the defensive masteries
I mean to say that cdr is an incredibly backloaded stat in most situations hence why burst champs get ap first.
If you are running away, you might use your Q to knock up enemies, E to shield your ally closest to them, and ult to move them away. That CDR doesn't make your shield 16% stronger or Q do 16% more damage in this situation.
I can sorta see the value in codex now though. Maybe you really want AP on Janna in late game.
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You don't "harass" you counter-play! If you really think you randomly pop shield on ADC or yourself, then idk what sort of opponents you're playing. Every single decent Janna uses shield as soon as any type of engagement happen from the enemy. You aren't the one doing the damage in the duo lane, hell if you wanna do damage why the fuck are you picking Janna? Pick Annie, pick Zyra, but seriously don't pick Janna and expect to be a damage threat on pair with those 2 mages.
The way you describe your play-style is exactly how you're supposed to play it with E-max. Counter-play all day, no need to initiate, cus Janna is a terrible initiater (flash ult is nice, but that´s it). The hardest part is understanding the synergy in lanes and getting a good grasp of how/when/why you shield, but that is what makes Janna so damn hard and fun to play 
I do however believe that W max as mid-lane AP Janna would be pretty beast with the new changes. The new scaling could make her extremely good in fast-pushing compositions, but I'll let the koreans figure that one out.
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You're the one who brought up harassing not me. W is better for trades. Whether or not you initiate them. Shield is not necessary until later game when your adc doesn't have (as many) creeps to sustain off of.
@chicken. The other options are ok for cdr but the real reason for dfg is because of gold and slot efficient ap. (It's also why you sit on the codex and get cap/zhonya first. When you buy the codex you will go right to 40% cdr because you will already have a primary cdr/AP item.
You don't get cdr from runes because the trade off isn't worth it. To get the cdr you would have to give up about 15 ap late game or 15 mr. You can't get equivalent value out of that in the early mastery defensive mastery tree.
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there are certain janna lanes where w max is fine
is your adc draven? max w. all you need to do is stop them from running away from him to win the lane. then you can use your janna powers to cover for draven's terrible teamfighting
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Isn't W's range a little low for trading?
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People going 9 0 21 on janna are stuck in the past eg season 3 mentality. I would suggest 5(cdr+dealing dmg with spell increase allies dmg) X Y. The reason for going 9 in offense was the 8% penetration which is gone.
I play her really defensive in lane anyway and used to go 1 8 21 full gold runes with janna in s3. Mostly as a counter pick or farm lanes. Worked really bad when team was crap with so low dmg =)
Ps. If team is crap and you can tell from the talk in select a lot of the time. Go teemo support ^^
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EPT
