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On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable!
Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators.
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On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators.
You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments. Brilliant.
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On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:
You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberator harass (which btw requires very heavy investment down a specific tech path by terran), maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
Broodlords and Tempests are T3. Liberators are lower tech that cost half as much as the other 2. Broodlords can't attack air, Tempests do much much less DPS.
If Liberators cost 300 / 300 and came after fusion core, maybe then we wouldn't complain as much.
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On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back to Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According to the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable!
I hope your trolling cuz nobody can be this bad right ? Or you must be a kid...
1. spores are outranged by Liberators, dont compare them to oracles or banshee cuz those units dont have 15 range
2. liberators come at 5 min in the game, broodlors come at 30+ by that time you have air units
Im forced into 2 base spire that gets me killed against any good terran because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg and the next bio push destroys you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 24 2015 06:22 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators. You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Brilliant.
What part of "broodlords and tempests are just not comparable to liberators due to their timing, price, accessibility and strength" don't you understand ?
I'm not engaging in a discussion about BW balance, I never even finished the T campaign.
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On July 24 2015 06:22 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators. You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Brilliant.
How we refuted your last failed point, the time in which that happened isn't as early, it still required a hive to pull off and you're not getting a hive + great spire and then morphing a guardian in before 4:50.
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On July 24 2015 06:26 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:22 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators. You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Brilliant. How we refuted your last failed point, the time in which that happened isn't as early, it still required a hive to pull off and you're not getting a hive + great spire and then morphing a guardian in before 4:50.
I think he's trolling, but I'm not sure.
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On July 24 2015 06:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:22 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators. You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Brilliant. What part of "broodlords and tempests are just not comparable to liberators due to their timing, price, accessibility and strength" don't you understand ? I'm not engaging in a discussion about BW balance, I never even finished the T campaign.
According to him, it's an 'ad hominem' attack when you address the different units lol. He's definitely got the 'dont nerf my race bro' attitude going on.
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On July 24 2015 06:29 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:26 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:22 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 06:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily be used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back the Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! Stop with those comparisons, you're embarrassing yourself. Tempests DPS is shit. Broodlords come out hours after liberators. You cant refute my statements or answer why a commonly used tactic dating all the way back to Broodwar is suddenly "imba", so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Brilliant. What part of "broodlords and tempests are just not comparable to liberators due to their timing, price, accessibility and strength" don't you understand ? I'm not engaging in a discussion about BW balance, I never even finished the T campaign. According to him, it's an 'ad hominem' attack when you address the different units lol. He's definitely got the 'dont nerf my race bro' attitude going on.
Or maybe he's identified himself with Terran so much it's "ad hominem" to even question Liberator balance in front of him. "Don't you dare questioning my baby !"
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On July 24 2015 06:26 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back to Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According to the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! I hope your trolling cuz nobody can be this bad right ? Or you must be a kid... 1. spores are outranged by Liberators, dont compare them to oracles or banshee cuz those units dont have 15 range 2. liberators come at 5 min in the game, broodlors come at 30+ by that time you have air units Im forced into 2 base spire that gets me killed against any good terran because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg and the next bio push destroys you.
Ignoring your own immature troll-like comments, here is my answer:
1. Liberators cant attack buildings, so why does it matter it outranges a spore? Or maybe you suggesting that a spore's coverage is insufficient for a mineral line? Guess what, the same is also true for harass by oracles, banshees, and void rays. Are you going to complain that the spore's range is too low?
2. You are comparing apples to oranges. It is one of Terran's racial attributes to have a fast tech path. Are you suggesting all races should have the same timings for every similar unit? What would be the point of having 3 distinct races then? Lastly, any liberator rush (just like dt rushes, nydus rushes) requires the Terran to severely sacrifice his economy. It essentially is an all in and if you scout it, you either win outright or get extremely far ahead economically. You scout him building liberators and attack before he is ready, you win. You do a muta build, and pull your drones for about 30 seconds, and kill the liberators, you win.
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On July 24 2015 06:41 Loccstana wrote:
Ignoring your own immature troll-like comments, here is my answer:
You're so full of it. Let me address your 'argument'
On July 24 2015 06:41 Loccstana wrote:
1. Liberators cant attack buildings, so why does it matter it outranges a spore?
Uhh, maybe because Zerg NEEDS to attack the liberator regardless of whether Liberator can kill the spore or not? Otherwise, all the drones are gonna get roasted. Wow, just wow.
On July 24 2015 06:41 Loccstana wrote:
2. You are comparing apples to oranges. It is one of Terran's racial attributes to have a fast tech path.
No it's not. Terrans just enjoy a faster tech path, but there is nothing in the lore or the race design that says T should have the fastest tech path.
On July 24 2015 06:41 Loccstana wrote:What would be the point of having 3 distinct races then? Lastly, any liberator rush (just like dt rushes, nydus rushes) requires the Terran to severely sacrifice his economy. It essentially is an all in and if you scout it, you either win outright or get extremely far ahead economically. You scout him building liberators and attack before he is ready, you win. You do a muta build, and pull your drones for about 30 seconds, and kill the liberators, you win.
Oh, since Terran has the fastest tech path, let's argue all races are different. Let's take away the cloak on Ghosts and Banshees and say that only Protoss should have stealth because that's a mystical power that Humans shouldn't have. See how stupid it sounds? All 3 races don't have to be the same but when you have a massive DPS starport unit that comes out super early, you have a major problem in balance.
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On July 24 2015 06:41 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:26 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 24 2015 06:11 Loccstana wrote:On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead. Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose. On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it. These so called "broken spots" are just as easily used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back to Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According to the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable! I hope your trolling cuz nobody can be this bad right ? Or you must be a kid... 1. spores are outranged by Liberators, dont compare them to oracles or banshee cuz those units dont have 15 range 2. liberators come at 5 min in the game, broodlors come at 30+ by that time you have air units Im forced into 2 base spire that gets me killed against any good terran because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg and the next bio push destroys you. Ignoring your own immature troll-like comments, here is my answer: 1. Liberators cant attack buildings, so why does it matter it outranges a spore? Or maybe you suggesting that a spore's coverage is insufficient for a mineral line? Guess what, the same is also true for harass by oracles, banshees, and void rays. Are you going to complain that the spore's range is too low? 2. You are comparing apples to oranges. It is one of Terran's racial attributes to have a fast tech path. Are you suggesting all races should have the same timings for every similar unit? What would be the point of having 3 distinct races then? Lastly, any liberator rush requires the Terran to severely sacrifice his economy. It essentially is an all in and if you scout it, you either win outright or get extremely far ahead economically. You scout him building liberators and attack before he is ready, you win. You do a muta build, and pull your drones for about 30 seconds, and kill the liberators, you win.
+ Show Spoiler +
That's me done responding to you because it will lead nowhere good, either you have no concept of the game or you are trolling.
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So, in general, I don't think I like that Ovid guy much, regarding the way he handles arguments.
However, that post was very well researched, Liberators can be very very effective harassment tools in TvZ. I disagree with a lot of his opponents that bring bad arguments to the table.
I don't think it is broken so far. It is indeed a moderately expensive tech path that dies outright to baneling bust / roach bust. But I agree that it is not a good way to play a RTS. If I am Zerg and I scout an early liberator build, I shouldn't have to allin my opponent to have a chance to win.
Edit : Oh, Ovid, just read your post, you had a warning in the previous page, why do you do this to yourself?
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That about sums up why I stopped playing the beta for now. Thanks for showing these pictures that really display just how much the current Liberator limits map design.
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On July 24 2015 08:02 fezvez wrote:
So, in general, I don't think I like that Ovid guy much, regarding the way he handles arguments.
However, that post was very well researched, Liberators can be very very effective harassment tools in TvZ. I disagree with a lot of his opponents that bring bad arguments to the table.
I don't think it is broken so far. It is indeed a moderately expensive tech path that dies outright to baneling bust / roach bust. But I agree that it is not a good way to play a RTS. If I am Zerg and I scout an early liberator build, I shouldn't have to allin my opponent to have a chance to win.
Edit : Oh, Ovid, just read your post, you had a warning in the previous page, why do you do this to yourself?
It's the internet. People don't handle arguments well here anyway, since a post isn't a perfect representation of what you want to say. At least you can correct yourself in real time face-to-face.
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Uhh, maybe because Zerg NEEDS to attack the liberator regardless of whether Liberator can kill the spore or not? Otherwise, all the drones are gonna get roasted. Wow, just wow.
According to a post on Battle.net's forum, liberators themselves, in a push, is not that scary. What you have to do is to keep your units - especially the queens - out of liberators' target area and focus your fire on the hellbats, bioball or other ground forces that come along with them. Roach/Ravager/Queen/Spores will do. Meanwhile you may have your drones burrowed or pulled aside.
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Corruptors own liberators pretty hard. I'm watching pro games and I don't see them being much of an issue vs competent players.
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Every issue involving units that depend on terrain to be effective can be fixed with out changing the unit.
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On July 24 2015 06:23 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:
You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberator harass (which btw requires very heavy investment down a specific tech path by terran), maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
Broodlords and Tempests are T3.
Trying to strictly apply a tier system to SC2 won't work. Tempests rushing and Liberator rushing are actually very similar when it comes to tech requirements when you think about it.
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On July 24 2015 17:08 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:23 parkufarku wrote:On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:
You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberator harass (which btw requires very heavy investment down a specific tech path by terran), maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
Broodlords and Tempests are T3. Trying to strictly apply a tier system to SC2 won't work. Tempests rushing and Liberator rushing are actually very similar when it comes to tech requirements when you think about it.
You can't really be serious comparing these units. Tempest DPS is so bad it's not really used as a unit. Liberator one shots hydras and has decent DPS against air.
Blizz has been throwing out broken terran units for a while: Warhound (got rekt), Cyclone and now this. If the last two feel weird is because they never had a place to being with, terran is the most complete race and their roles overlap. Cyclone should be a goliath and a valk was never needed, let alone one that is also a flying siege tank/thor. Sadly, both of them and the widow mine all overshadow the tank.
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EPT
