|
On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago.
So you think the unit is fine as is?
Assuming the siege tank got buffed to the point in can control space what would your suggested adjustments be to the liberator?
And if the tank didn't get buffed what nerf would you suggest for the Liberator?
On July 23 2015 06:16 _indigo_ wrote:
All you fuckers who don't even bother to read, don't just say "terran lol", because everyone has a different experience (and this was his, not experience of all terrans, which in turn demonises terrans as a whole), and don't talk about "no clue" without argumenting why one's idea is not viable.
So, the responses of some people, who apparently are starting to combat this "OP COMPOSITION" are retarded, have 0 worth and have no connection to reality? Then explain why you think spores + spines + lings to defeat hellbats is not an answer; or why spores + queens don't shut down liberators?
Everyone can say "you have no idea" and disregard the whole post; easiest thing in this life. At least give some credit to someone who bothers to spend a couple of minutes to write down his experience. With this community I hope liberator gets buffed to 7000 dmg per shot and catapults you all into Heartstone forever.
Since this is directed at me for this guys post
On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ...
I think I will explain my reasoning.
The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position.
Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post.
|
On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago.
They should keep the damage and the AG mode but revert the new changes. Liberator can be massed and you dont need it early, and taking a bit more time to switch modes would be the weakness of this unit.
We both know its broken at this point.... i even told you about this in your chat and that is a free win vs adept openers.
It needs to be changed.
|
On July 23 2015 06:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago. They should keep the damage and the AG mode but revert the new changes. Liberator can be massed and you dont need it early, and taking a bit more time to switch modes would be the weakness of this unit. We both know its broken at this point.... i even told you about this in your chat and that is a free win vs adept openers. It needs to be changed.
No, it doesn't need to keep those attributes they're the problem not the time which it arrives or how easy it is to mass. People can manage to mass ravens so unless you're severely nerfing it's cost or buildtime people will still find a way.
|
On July 23 2015 06:39 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 06:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago. They should keep the damage and the AG mode but revert the new changes. Liberator can be massed and you dont need it early, and taking a bit more time to switch modes would be the weakness of this unit. We both know its broken at this point.... i even told you about this in your chat and that is a free win vs adept openers. It needs to be changed. No, it doesn't need to keep those attributes they're the problem not the time which it arrives or how easy it is to mass. People can manage to mass ravens so unless you're severely nerfing it's cost or buildtime people will still find a way.
Your right.... but i finally got my answer on how to beat this awful shit from a much better player then me and its not ravager/roach like everyone is saying without thinking.
Do your queen build 4/5 queens like you told me ( you suggested before when i sended that redbull tournament video ) but get overlord drop and overlord speed, use it to bypass the liberator zone and snipe the liberator, he will be forced to retreat it.
And you can also do the "warp prrism micro from HotS" with the overlord against hellbats to.
|
On July 23 2015 06:56 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 06:39 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 06:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago. They should keep the damage and the AG mode but revert the new changes. Liberator can be massed and you dont need it early, and taking a bit more time to switch modes would be the weakness of this unit. We both know its broken at this point.... i even told you about this in your chat and that is a free win vs adept openers. It needs to be changed. No, it doesn't need to keep those attributes they're the problem not the time which it arrives or how easy it is to mass. People can manage to mass ravens so unless you're severely nerfing it's cost or buildtime people will still find a way. Your right.... but i finally got my answer on how to beat this awful shit from a much better player then me and its not ravager/roach like everyone is saying without thinking. Do your queen build 4/5 queens like you told me ( you suggested before when i sended that redbull tournament video ) but get overlord drop and overlord speed, use it to bypass the liberator zone and snipe the liberator, he will be forced to retreat it. And you can also do the "warp prrism micro from HotS" with the overlord against hellbats to.
Will try that, but my only question is what happens if they abuse the airspace to hit a mineral line on some of the maps I'm assuming it's a case of stopping them from reaching that point using the creep spread from the queen opener for vision/mobility. Because the ATG is a projectile can you lift the queens before it hits negating any damage?
|
On July 23 2015 07:07 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 06:56 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 23 2015 06:39 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 06:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On July 23 2015 06:22 avilo wrote:On July 22 2015 18:18 Plantarbre wrote:
Just give the liberator a faster attack with the same dps so the queens can heal effectively and you will have a consistent counter.
Like, instead of doing 80 damages, it could deal 35 damages with a faster attack speed (multiplied by 80/35).
Then, hydras will take 3 shots before dying, they will survive longer (also, the liberator will lose some damages as the third shot will waste 25 damages) AND queens will be much efficient against them. The good thing is, the liberator will still be a viable option (against ultras too), and if it's still too strong, then we can consider the numbers are really wrong. So basically make the liberator as bad as the siege tank? No thanks lol. They already did this to the siege tank years ago due to a bad map pool (steppes of war, scrap station, blistering sands). They made it so tanks do not trade cost efficiently with any unit in the game by ruining the damage it did. Let's not repeat the same mistake twice please. Unless you want mech to be forced to play 1 hr turtle mech games again. The great thing about the liberator right now is it can hold a position on the map and allow you to push across the map. Siege tanks should arguably be able to do the same thing but they can't because they received a massive damage nerf in a previous patch years ago. They should keep the damage and the AG mode but revert the new changes. Liberator can be massed and you dont need it early, and taking a bit more time to switch modes would be the weakness of this unit. We both know its broken at this point.... i even told you about this in your chat and that is a free win vs adept openers. It needs to be changed. No, it doesn't need to keep those attributes they're the problem not the time which it arrives or how easy it is to mass. People can manage to mass ravens so unless you're severely nerfing it's cost or buildtime people will still find a way. Your right.... but i finally got my answer on how to beat this awful shit from a much better player then me and its not ravager/roach like everyone is saying without thinking. Do your queen build 4/5 queens like you told me ( you suggested before when i sended that redbull tournament video ) but get overlord drop and overlord speed, use it to bypass the liberator zone and snipe the liberator, he will be forced to retreat it. And you can also do the "warp prrism micro from HotS" with the overlord against hellbats to. Will try that, but my only question is what happens if they abuse the airspace to hit a mineral line on some of the maps I'm assuming it's a case of stopping them from reaching that point using the creep spread from the queen opener for vision/mobility. Because the ATG is a projectile can you lift the queens before it hits negating any damage?
Get the spore behind the mineral line it wont reach your drones. Usually we put the spore in middle of the mineral line.... but yeah liberator is "special".....
Or on some maps you have to put the spore behind the mineral line but either 60 degrees to the right or left, depending on the map.
I dont know if you can lift the queens before the damage but i think its not worth it since the hellbats are there and you need to snipe that Liberator fast.
I still think their IMBA, i wonder how will Protoss defend it tho.... without being forced into stargate openers like they did vs cyclone.
|
Edit: Nevermind, deleted post.
|
Flying AOE AA is always imba because it always has a critical mass where it can 1 or 2 shot everything that flys.
Because of the way flying units can stack and use terrain, it's the ultimate deathball style.
The fact that the liberator also has such a powerful AtG mode is more insult to injury. A defensive terran player could mass nothing but liberators as a late game army, leap frogging deployed liberators to keep control of the ground while keeping enough in AA mode to keep back any number of flying units.
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
Simply put I cannot be less happy with the design of this unit. Tweaking the damage or health of the unit is irrelivant, apart from the 'difficulty' of massing them there is literally no downside to building as many liberators as you possibly can.
|
Yeah the AOE AA part is actually what makes it very different from tanks. You shouldn't be forced to use long range air units to counter their siege mode in sufficient numbers (with proper support, they can actually become impossible to attack without ranged phoenix/tempests/carriers).
|
On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Flying AOE AA is always imba because it always has a critical mass where it can 1 or 2 shot everything that flys.
Because of the way flying units can stack and use terrain, it's the ultimate deathball style.
The fact that the liberator also has such a powerful AtG mode is more insult to injury. A defensive terran player could mass nothing but liberators as a late game army, leap frogging deployed liberators to keep control of the ground while keeping enough in AA mode to keep back any number of flying units.
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
Simply put I cannot be less happy with the design of this unit. Tweaking the damage or health of the unit is irrelivant, apart from the 'difficulty' of massing them there is literally no downside to building as many liberators as you possibly can.
True but the same concept can be aplyed to cyclone to since it has massive range just like Liberator and can shoot both ground and air. The only difference is that it takes time to get it, late game to form the deathball and have both upgrades.
Both units are to good units overall with no real weakness.
|
On July 23 2015 09:15 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
True but the same concept can be aplyed to cyclone to sinc eit has massive range just like Liberator and can shoot both ground and air. The only difference is that it takes to late game to form the deathball and have both upgrades.
Both units are to good units overall with no real weakness.
I don't understand your posts. You use grand hyperbole to the point that it makes me wonder if you're even serious.
How are liberators weakness free? In ground mode, you can shoot them from the air, in air mode, they take hits from the ground.
Cyclones have problems too, and this game isn't rock paper scissors. Asymmetry is the name of the game, and arguing that one unit is strong is missing the point of the game. Terran has been lagging behind severely lately, and a unit that has strong zone control is something we've needed for a long, long time. Just because current meta doesn't work against it does not mean the unit is too strong. You clearly need to work on your mindset of balance, because thinking like yours is why the game is missing a lot of color and flavor like properly powerful seige tanks. And by your logic, I could argue that the disruptor is too strong, or the ravager is, or the lurker with "OMG look what happens when you run a bio ball into a ball of lurkers."
The point of these units is that they fit into the core army. So they need to be powerful and relatively well rounded units, just like all the current new units are. Have you tried overwhelming the liberator AG zone with zerglings and walking in your ravagers behind it to drop their micro shots? The lib is relatively soft and limited, and a terran with a big ball of libs is just asking to be flanked. If they've made an impenetrable defense, just expand like crazy and win via attrition.
Map design will also play a key in the lib's overall potency. When there are 4-5 chokes to control, the lib will be much more limited. Mapmakers have the ability to basically design the balance of the liberator (as well as making space behind the worker line so the lib can no longer hit workers out of range of AA buildings for example)
On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Flying AOE AA is always imba because it always has a critical mass where it can 1 or 2 shot everything that flys.
Because of the way flying units can stack and use terrain, it's the ultimate deathball style.
The fact that the liberator also has such a powerful AtG mode is more insult to injury. A defensive terran player could mass nothing but liberators as a late game army, leap frogging deployed liberators to keep control of the ground while keeping enough in AA mode to keep back any number of flying units.
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
Simply put I cannot be less happy with the design of this unit. Tweaking the damage or health of the unit is irrelivant, apart from the 'difficulty' of massing them there is literally no downside to building as many liberators as you possibly can.
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:
I think I will explain my reasoning.
The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position.
Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post.
optimal positioning is the phrase you're not really getting. That changes map to map, minute to minute, zone to zone, and requires a TON of careful planning. Planning and strategy are important things that scII is sadly lacking, and it's something that the protoss have with sentries, but zerg and terran have lacked until now with no lurkers and garbage tanks.
And like I mentioned earlier. Liberators can exploit the current map pool, but players also exploited the high ground natural in lost temple, and arguing that as a reason for nerfing the tank, thor, or colossus is equally silly. That issue can be solved by extending the ground behind the minerals to allow for a spore/cannon/turret to reach a lib that is in range of the mineral line.
|
^ Lurkers can be outranged. Liberators dont cuz 15 range same as Cyclone, Its easier and earlier then a Lurker to use.
And you tell me this are all the same ? Such BS.
PS. Disruptor is not OP and its not used for zoning... Ravager is beyond useless at this point and no one is really using it since the nerf since it cost to much for such an easy to dodge ability.
|
On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
That's not true. If there're nothing else but liberators alone, mass stalkers/hydras/marines can easily shoot them down. Don't forget that in AG mode liberator attacks SINGLE target within an area one at a time. Without any other supporting forces, even a lot of liberators covering a huge area in AG mode can not deal with mass anti-air forces.
|
On July 23 2015 12:57 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
That's not true. If there're nothing else but liberators alone, mass stalkers/hydras/marines can easily shoot them down. Don't forget that in AG mode liberator attacks SINGLE target within an area one at a time. Without any other supporting forces, even a lot of liberators covering a huge area in AG mode can not deal with mass anti-air forces.
This is one of the great issues with liberators being FLYING units however. They can use the terrain to make flanking difficult if not impossible. Mass stalkers would be pretty terrible, worse than anything else in fact, at cutting down a mass liberator fleet since stalkers over kill and would die to 2 shots from a liberator.
Mass marines only have range 4, which means it would take a huge positional blunder for the liberator player to expose the liberator fleet. Not only that, but terrans can use PF's to create an unassailable position which the libs can be positioned over.
Don't forget, you can't medivac drop / overlord drop onto a lib position due to their overwhelming AOE, so you've be stimming marines in without support to try and close the distance.
Hydras are perhaps the strongest of the ground to air units when it comes to dealing with mass libs, assuming the range and speed upgrades are researched, but with them being 1 shot I think 30 deployed libs would utter destroy them before they could deal any meaningful damage to the terran.
|
On July 23 2015 14:46 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 12:57 TedCruz2016 wrote:On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
That's not true. If there're nothing else but liberators alone, mass stalkers/hydras/marines can easily shoot them down. Don't forget that in AG mode liberator attacks SINGLE target within an area one at a time. Without any other supporting forces, even a lot of liberators covering a huge area in AG mode can not deal with mass anti-air forces. This is one of the great issues with liberators being FLYING units however. They can use the terrain to make flanking difficult if not impossible. Mass stalkers would be pretty terrible, worse than anything else in fact, at cutting down a mass liberator fleet since stalkers over kill and would die to 2 shots from a liberator. Mass marines only have range 4, which means it would take a huge positional blunder for the liberator player to expose the liberator fleet. Not only that, but terrans can use PF's to create an unassailable position which the libs can be positioned over. Don't forget, you can't medivac drop / overlord drop onto a lib position due to their overwhelming AOE, so you've be stimming marines in without support to try and close the distance. Hydras are perhaps the strongest of the ground to air units when it comes to dealing with mass libs, assuming the range and speed upgrades are researched, but with them being 1 shot I think 30 deployed libs would utter destroy them before they could deal any meaningful damage to the terran.
Nonetheless liberator is a SIEGE unit. It doesn't move when deployed, therefore there's little room for mistakes. The lack of mobility is a huge weakness. Deployed at a bad position or isolated from the others, it gets killed. Like siege tank, it's more about area control than frontal engagement. Since deployment takes time, the solution is to catch them by surprise when they're NOT deployed. If they're already deployed, at least you can run out their target areas, not running into them to die. It shouldn't be very hard to do with blinking stalkers or fast-moving hydras. In case of TvT, just pop out vikings in response. Nonetheless, neither its AA splash damage nor the AG mode matters if the liberators are in low number. Only does it pose a big threat when it's massed.
|
ive been watching this on streams it seems to be the way that the terran gets 3 per the zergs bases flies near edge if they can and just wipe mineral lines . . gg, everything what does near them gets killed and forces you into air. A counter for this is super cheap over lord speed 25/25 let me know they have gone disruptor so i can get air in quicker than just blind throwing down spire
|
On July 23 2015 16:51 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 14:46 Kharnage wrote:On July 23 2015 12:57 TedCruz2016 wrote:On July 23 2015 08:15 Kharnage wrote:
Normally with an AA unit you can counter them by switching heavily into ground units, like when a zerg over makes corruptors. Liberators do not suffer from this. There is no punishement for over making the unit, and mass switches into say stalkers, hydras or marines in an effort to punish the liberator will just cause the liberator player to move back a little and then deploy all liberators into AtG mode and annihilate everything.
That's not true. If there're nothing else but liberators alone, mass stalkers/hydras/marines can easily shoot them down. Don't forget that in AG mode liberator attacks SINGLE target within an area one at a time. Without any other supporting forces, even a lot of liberators covering a huge area in AG mode can not deal with mass anti-air forces. This is one of the great issues with liberators being FLYING units however. They can use the terrain to make flanking difficult if not impossible. Mass stalkers would be pretty terrible, worse than anything else in fact, at cutting down a mass liberator fleet since stalkers over kill and would die to 2 shots from a liberator. Mass marines only have range 4, which means it would take a huge positional blunder for the liberator player to expose the liberator fleet. Not only that, but terrans can use PF's to create an unassailable position which the libs can be positioned over. Don't forget, you can't medivac drop / overlord drop onto a lib position due to their overwhelming AOE, so you've be stimming marines in without support to try and close the distance. Hydras are perhaps the strongest of the ground to air units when it comes to dealing with mass libs, assuming the range and speed upgrades are researched, but with them being 1 shot I think 30 deployed libs would utter destroy them before they could deal any meaningful damage to the terran. Nonetheless liberator is a SIEGE unit. It doesn't move when deployed, therefore there's little room for mistakes. The lack of mobility is a huge weakness. Deployed at a bad position or isolated from the others, it gets killed. Like siege tank, it's more about area control than frontal engagement. Since deployment takes time, the solution is to catch them by surprise when they're NOT deployed. If they're already deployed, at least you can run out their target areas, not running into them to die. It shouldn't be very hard to do with blinking stalkers or fast-moving hydras. In case of TvT, just pop out vikings in response. Nonetheless, neither its AA splash damage nor the AG mode matters if the liberators are in low number. Only does it pose a big threat when it's massed.
This whole thread was made because a certain rush utilizing 1-2 liberators is very powerful.
|
On July 23 2015 10:30 Honeybadger wrote:
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
FOr zerg, I don't think there is any other option than massive parasite bombs to be honest, if the game goes to that stage, no ground units are going to do the job,
Anyway, I will wait to have the opinion of professionals players before drawing any conclusion, none of us here (except Nerchio) plays at a high level, so we should be careful. Sure the LIberator looks extremely strong, but same is true for lurkers, the new Carriers, ovie drops... etc so the overall games might be balanced. It is also a question of metagames, right now it is wild so it's hard to draw any conclusion, maybe this 2 base liberator/hellbat wll be in the future not possible because it'll be prevented by the possibility of some agressive build like OL drop builds for example.
|
I re-read a bunch of posts in this thread and there's way too many people that just do not understand the counters to liberator (spore/spine, corruptors, moving out of the huge circle lol).
Even magic boxed mutas can counter liberators, just like they do versus thors.
Oh, also ravagers are a really good counter to liberators as well because you can use the skill shot on the liberator while it's stationary and if you forced it to move you probably just stopped that push.
|
I might be in the minority, but I wouldn't mind the unit being removed entirely in favor of a better siege tank. As pretty much everyone has said, it steps all over the siege tank. More, in fact, than the HERC overlapped with the Hellbat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
