|
On July 23 2015 18:31 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 10:30 Honeybadger wrote:
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
Sure the LIberator looks extremely strong, but same is true for lurkers, the new Carriers, ovie drops... etc so the overall games might be balanced.
I don't like that logic. If each race has a broken strat, it will probably even out, but will the game be interesting ? Nothing should be too extremely strong, and I think the liberator stats are just too high for the type of unit that it is.
|
France961 Posts
On July 23 2015 19:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 18:31 Vanadiel wrote:On July 23 2015 10:30 Honeybadger wrote:
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
Sure the LIberator looks extremely strong, but same is true for lurkers, the new Carriers, ovie drops... etc so the overall games might be balanced. I don't like that logic. If each race has a broken strat, it will probably even out, but will the game be interesting ? Nothing should be too extremely strong, and I think the liberator stats are just too high for the type of unit that it is.
I also think that the liberator's stats might be too high right now, but as long as it's only based on my games and of "low" (with respect the pro) level players, I am not sure of it nor how it should be changed, so I genuinely think we should keep the liberator as it is, at least for a longer moment to see how players adapt to it and exploit its flaws (if the unit has such).
And I am not saying that everyone should have a broken strategy but having a game balanced from the top (i.e. every race has very strong, not extremely but still, strong units), isn't it how BW was balanced around, and what is regularly requested from the community for SC2?
|
And I am not saying that everyone should have a broken strategy but having a game balanced from the top (i.e. every race has very strong, not extremely but still, strong units), isn't it how BW was balanced around, and what is regularly requested from the community for SC2?
Kinda but I don't agree that was why it worked. I think you can recreate some design of the OP units and make them less strong while putting them into the Sc2-environment.
The disadvantage with the BW approach is that it reduces diversity because the race bascially becomes balanced around being forced to use 1-2 key units.
|
On July 23 2015 20:02 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 19:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 23 2015 18:31 Vanadiel wrote:On July 23 2015 10:30 Honeybadger wrote:
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
Sure the LIberator looks extremely strong, but same is true for lurkers, the new Carriers, ovie drops... etc so the overall games might be balanced. I don't like that logic. If each race has a broken strat, it will probably even out, but will the game be interesting ? Nothing should be too extremely strong, and I think the liberator stats are just too high for the type of unit that it is. I also think that the liberator's stats might be too high right now, but as long as it's only based on my games and of "low" (with respect the pro) level players, I am not sure of it nor how it should be changed, so I genuinely think we should keep the liberator as it is, at least for a longer moment to see how players adapt to it and exploit its flaws (if the unit has such). And I am not saying that everyone should have a broken strategy but having a game balanced from the top (i.e. every race has very strong, not extremely but still, strong units), isn't it how BW was balanced around, and what is regularly requested from the community for SC2?
I think that approach is bound to fail in an SC2 environment that is far less mechanically demanding. I've always thought SC2 needs to be balanced from the core.
|
On July 23 2015 18:55 avilo wrote:
I re-read a bunch of posts in this thread and there's way too many people that just do not understand the counters to liberator (spore/spine, corruptors, moving out of the huge circle lol).
Even magic boxed mutas can counter liberators, just like they do versus thors.
Oh, also ravagers are a really good counter to liberators as well because you can use the skill shot on the liberator while it's stationary and if you forced it to move you probably just stopped that push.
Just dont, you know what you said on stream... IMBA was the word. And you know it 
|
France961 Posts
On July 23 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 20:02 Vanadiel wrote:On July 23 2015 19:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 23 2015 18:31 Vanadiel wrote:On July 23 2015 10:30 Honeybadger wrote:
put me as the zerg in a ZVT where this happens, with a standard game where I haven't already lost due to other circumstances, and I'll absolutely crush that lib massing player. Newsflash, the lib is easily flanked and ground units are supposed to be its counter. It's not a primary attack unit, and sucks in that role. It's a ZONE CONTROL unit, just like the lurker.
Sure the LIberator looks extremely strong, but same is true for lurkers, the new Carriers, ovie drops... etc so the overall games might be balanced. I don't like that logic. If each race has a broken strat, it will probably even out, but will the game be interesting ? Nothing should be too extremely strong, and I think the liberator stats are just too high for the type of unit that it is. I also think that the liberator's stats might be too high right now, but as long as it's only based on my games and of "low" (with respect the pro) level players, I am not sure of it nor how it should be changed, so I genuinely think we should keep the liberator as it is, at least for a longer moment to see how players adapt to it and exploit its flaws (if the unit has such). And I am not saying that everyone should have a broken strategy but having a game balanced from the top (i.e. every race has very strong, not extremely but still, strong units), isn't it how BW was balanced around, and what is regularly requested from the community for SC2? I think that approach is bound to fail in an SC2 environment that is far less mechanically demanding. I've always thought SC2 needs to be balanced from the core.
Maybe it's true, I really don't know to be honest, it's nice that they are willing to test it at least, so we will see how it work.
|
On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue.
Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ...
On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post.
Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on?
You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one?
You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage).
Can we move on?
You claim my post is "totally misguided".
The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal.
I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs*
Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore.
|
On July 23 2015 18:55 avilo wrote:
I re-read a bunch of posts in this thread and there's way too many people that just do not understand the counters to liberator (spore/spine, corruptors, moving out of the huge circle lol).
Even magic boxed mutas can counter liberators, just like they do versus thors.
Oh, also ravagers are a really good counter to liberators as well because you can use the skill shot on the liberator while it's stationary and if you forced it to move you probably just stopped that push.
Wow, Mutas that Zerg players have to spend 1000+ minerals and 1000+ gas can beat other flying units if you use micro? That sounds like an amazing deal for Zergs! Any army can beat another army depending on the resources and micro you spend on that army
|
On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore.
What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke.
|
I don't know for you, but everytime I play against liberator I wish I could make scourges. It would be a very nice addition to the zerg air army.
|
On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke.
A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead.
|
Here goes.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform
Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iw9Zi0X.jpg)
Here is the other potential third
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GcSDFZM.png)
Here is the range from the natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mP35sHd.png)
Bridgehead
You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WAUA3rU.png)
Orbital Shipyard
This is in that pocket natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R2hgmE5.png)
Dash and Terminal
This is the natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aKJjYkM.png)
The third behind your natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0I5qZ62.png)
The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ciTFTRY.png)
Ruins of Seras
This is your natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rv6WOch.png)
This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A2Hw3Tt.png)
Moonlight Madness
This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kd5YzU4.png)
The other natural that most people take first
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/osXCdBT.jpg)
The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L4VgrwG.png)
Lerilak Crest
The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion
The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage.
The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives.
Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective.
A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator.
So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
|
Thanks for the research man. Yeah, the unit is broken at the moment. It has too much range as the images clearly showcase.
|
Avilo: "Spores counter them!!! Queens are also ridiculously effective against them!"
Every non-T biased poster: "Uhhh no, Zerg actually doesnt have proper anti-air since liberators can out-range if placed in some positions, and even if you tech to Mutas, mass liberators shred mass mutas"
I don't see why you guys even bother replying to Avilo. He clearly has a Terran-based agenda
EDIT: Yes, thanks for the pictures. That should shut up the Terrans who are claiming spores are great against them.
|
On July 24 2015 05:43 Ovid wrote:Here goes. This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there. + Show Spoiler +[u] ConclusionThe only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage. The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberator harass (which btw requires very heavy investment down a specific tech path by terran), maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
|
On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead.
Please stop the BS you know its not... the circle is so big that if you put it on some ramps they cant really engage, hellbats can kill the spore clawer way faster. You know its IMBA you even said it on stream.
Not to mention that they can shoot from dead space to kill mineral lines without getting hit on some maps since they buffed the range by 1.
Its so disgusting seeing people defend this.... do they really think that getting some free wins at the start of the game is important instead of having a good game ?
On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:43 Ovid wrote:Here goes. This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there. TerraformMain base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed thirdHere is the other potential thirdHere is the range from the naturalBridgeheadYou can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side[u] Orbital Shipyard[u] This is in that pocket naturalDash and TerminalThis is the naturalThe third behind your naturalThe forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberatorRuins of SerasThis is your naturalThis is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.Moonlight MadnessThis map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/thirdThe other natural that most people take firstThe potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above naturalLerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play strongerConclusionThe only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage. The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further. You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberators, maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
Right cuz you have that at 5 min in the game... should have made some ultras againts hellbats to.
2 base muta stops that but your dead to the next bio push, 2 base terran > 2 base zerg ...unless the terran is really bad
|
On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:43 Ovid wrote:Here goes. This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there. TerraformMain base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed thirdHere is the other potential thirdHere is the range from the naturalBridgeheadYou can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side[u] Orbital Shipyard[u] This is in that pocket naturalDash and TerminalThis is the naturalThe third behind your naturalThe forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberatorRuins of SerasThis is your naturalThis is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.Moonlight MadnessThis map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/thirdThe other natural that most people take firstThe potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above naturalLerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play strongerConclusionThe only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage. The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further. You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberators, maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
Are you mentally retarded? Broodlords are extreme lategame and even with Tempest rushes they do so little DPS that even scouting them just as they attack you should give you enough time to respond.
edit - thanks for the kind words on the images, I think it really helps show where we're coming from.
User was warned for this post
|
On July 24 2015 05:57 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 05:43 Ovid wrote:Here goes. This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there. TerraformMain base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed thirdHere is the other potential thirdHere is the range from the naturalBridgeheadYou can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side[u] Orbital Shipyard[u] This is in that pocket naturalDash and TerminalThis is the naturalThe third behind your naturalThe forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberatorRuins of SerasThis is your naturalThis is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.Moonlight MadnessThis map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/thirdThe other natural that most people take firstThe potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above naturalLerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play strongerConclusionThe only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage. The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further. You do realize that both Zerg and Protoss have units that are capable of doing long range air to ground for a long time already (Broodlords, Tempest)? So far there has been no complaints about them being imba in LOTV. So what exactly is wrong that Terran gets the same kind of unit that the two other races already have? Hint: If you are losing to liberators, maybe you should make some air units such as mutas, or better yet, do counter attacks/timing attacks instead of greedily droning up to 70 workers.
You do realize that those units cannot sit there at 5mins in the game before it is theoretically possible to field an AtA counter? And those units aren't amazing AtA units themselves that actually punish you for you trying to punish that play.
|
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it.
|
On July 24 2015 05:30 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 01:54 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 23:53 TimeSpiral wrote:On July 23 2015 05:38 Ovid wrote:On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... Sorry I'm an arsehole but you don't have a clue. Okay, so we've establish your disposition, lol. But we've all got a little arsehole in us, so I'll let that slide. But, I made some clear points. So, let's see if you address them ... On July 23 2015 06:28 Ovid wrote:*snip!*Since this is directed at me for this guys post On July 23 2015 05:00 TimeSpiral wrote:
It feels like the Liberator requires a ridiculous amount of micro to both use effectively, and to defend against. It feels very much like an Archon Mode unit (maybe that's just because I'm focusing on that mode).
Lib as a harass unit: spores pretty much shut this down hard. Lib can't attack spores and the spore can basically reposition in a similar amount of time as it takes to deactivate AG mode, move, activate AG mode, and then charge the attack. Spore + queen and the Lib is going to do almost nothing.
Obviously if you show up and there is no spore, and only one queen, Libs going to do damage and/or prevent mining for the time it takes to build a spore. But this dynamic is just like being unprepared for anything: mutas, banes, roaches, etc ... I think I will explain my reasoning. The liberator doesn't require a ridiculous amount of micro to use with it's aa it's very static there's not many more tricks to it than A move or to focus fire. The ATG requires no movement or micro tricks, it just requires the person to set it up in a optimal position. Spores do not shut down the liberator as a harass based unit, on all of the maps there's a spot that the Liberator can hit one of your 3 bases mineral lines without being affected by a sporecrawler. Uprooting and rooting a spore takes 7 seconds I don't have the precise switching time for the liberator but it is substantially below that number spores are only effective in that manner in the lategame when you have more creep space to maneuver. It's a totally misguided post. Okay, perhaps the context and essence of my post was unclear. Was it not obvious that I was primarily talking about the Air-to-Ground (ATG) mode? And also, specifically in a harass role? *shrugs* I don't think anyone is arguing that the Air-to-Air a-move requires much micro. Can we move on? You then make this claim. Lulz. I'm almost tempted to just assume that this is not a serious rebuttal ... The lib cannot ATG and move. So, you have to move, and then activate ATG. That's micro. The ATG has an animation tell, and a huge warning marker for the opponent. Spores cannot be targeted, so are free to build and move. So, you roll in, activate these modes, maybe get a couple shots off, then you have to re-position to avoid the spore or the queen. Select > deactivate > move > reactivate target > observe what's happening > repeat. Now, imagine there is more than one? You then make this claim. Oh, really? Is that a fact? Lulz. Are you really arguing that spores and queens do not counter the Lib harass? They do. I don't know how long it takes to deactivate ATG, move, activate ATG, and then fire one shot from the Lib, but I'm pretty sure the window when compared to an attended spore is extremely small (requiring constant micro, and basically meaning the harass will not do a lot of damage). Can we move on? You claim my post is "totally misguided". The drive of my post: Lib requires lots of micro. It has an activated mode for each unit, lol, that changes attack and movement. Anyone really want to disagree that this does not constitute micro? As a harass unit the Lib requires a lot of micro, and a prepared Zerg with queens and spores will not take massive damage. This is totally misguided? I think I've said enough to at least reasonably push back on your rebuttal. I'm open to being wrong, I just don't think I am in this argument. Maybe I am, though, Maybe someone can post the sweet spot, on all three bases, on all the maps, where even with spores and queens you cannot defend a Lib harass. *shrugs* Allow me to elaborate on preparedness: if a Lib harass opener shows up, unscouted (which is difficult because of lings and overlords), and you do not have spores, you're going to lose the mining time it takes to build a spore, and maybe a queen if you try to fight the Lib instead of building a spore. What league are you in HOTS and in LOTV, I'm currently writing a massive response for all the broken spots for liberators vs zerg so I will rebut your points in more detail with the general information in that, but I will say I still hold my opinion that you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the strength of the liberator. The fact that you think 1 spore and 1 queen can stop 1 liberator is a joke. A spore crawler is a ridiculously good counter to the liberator. So are queens, unless you literally walk into liberator range, you can easily dance around the liberator in early game lol. Most early liberator rushes with hellions are off of 1 CC or 2 CC in which the Terran just got their 2nd CC mining, so there is an investment the Terran is putting to try to do damage to you. It's holdable, and depending on how much the T loses can put them way behind, or can put them ahead.
Exactly, all harass, depending on the skill of the attacker and preparation of the defender, can either succeed wildly, fail spectacularly, or somewhere in between. If the player dont build spores when the cloaked banshee comes and loses 30 drones, who is at the fault, the game or the player? If the player dont make turrets when the dts come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If the player does not have any stargates ready when the mutas come in, who is at fault, the player or the game? If you dont scout that your opponent is going for a liberator build and prepare spores in time, you deserve to lose.
On July 24 2015 06:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The problem with liberators is how early they can hit and dominate a mineral line when the other player cannot realistically have air units if he isn't trying to directly counter them.
Even then, I thought colossi forcing out vikings was a bad thing, and now liberators forcing air (most T players that go bio against me tell me to get air units to force the liberators to unsiege) would be a good thing ? Please. The tech requirements and timings on such strong zone control should be higher.
EDIT : big thanks to Ovid for that detailed research, I hope this opens some eyes. That kind of broken spots makes you wonder if Blizzard actually tests their stuff before patching it.
These so called "broken spots" are just as easily used by Broodlords and Tempests. In fact they existed in maps dating all the way back to Broodwar. Did you know that a common tactic for Zerg in Broodwar ZvT is to morph mutas into guardians (equivalent to SC2's broodlords) behind the terran's natural and harass the mineral line in positions unreachable by marines? According to the logic of certain posters, this would so imba that Zerg would be unbeatable!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
