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I'm playing random at the moment so I can appreciate how the game is changing with the beta. So far, new units seem okay since last patch, except liberators.
In ZvT, the terran who go liberator will usually go kill drones at distance, forcing the zerg to build air : because of the huge range, ground unit (as hydra) can't always attack them. Then, if the terran keep making liberator, it will reach a "critical" point where even 20 muta or corruptor (even well microed) get killed in 1 or 2 shot by a group of 10 liberator. I tried to make hydra/viper in those game, but always got killed on ground by mech.
On the contrary, when I play TvZ and if I commit to liberator and some mech on ground, I always win... and TvZ was my worst MU..
So IMO
* The splash seem to large
* The dmg too high for that type of AA
* The production is too fast (it shouldn't be reactored at starport)
* The range is too much
What do you guy think?
Note that I'm not zerg fanboy, my favorite race is terran.
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I've only faced liberators in 2 ways: Lib/hellbat push(1 base and 2 base variants) or with bio/lib.
When I scout lib/hellbat push I just get spores(1 each mineral line and 1-2 at main ramp and nat ramp) and get rw, spores are surprisingly good vs liberators. I follow up with 2 base spire and roach speed+5-6 corruptors.... usually just wins the game. Take 3rd behind it of course and transition.
Vs just having it mixed in with bio. I go hive for faster ultras. Not much to say on this one, haven't faced them this way nearly enough vs competant players.
I guess this post doesn't really add anything to your mass liberator or lib/mech discussion though. My bad <3.
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Personally, I would had love the Liberator to be moved to Tec-Lab + Armory Requirement, with their supply cost increasing to 4, cost increasing to 200/200, with some buffs, like health buff, bonus light damage for air (since they are more designed to counter Mass Muta & Phoenix) and maybe an additional armor.
Then maybe, they could move Raven to Reactor so Terran has additional for a more easier access to a supper unit (assuming the Raven's abilities are adjusted well).
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On competent hands I feel it is a little much powerful on TvZ, but a lot because of the maps and choke points. It one shot kills Hydras LOL
I think the Reactored feature is OK, think it costs 150 Gas, it is not a joke bro... it is like producing 4 Vikings from 1 Starport at the same time, you really need the income to kick it without All Innin or forgetting your other units...
They could maybe adjust the damage against ground, but TBH I see it pretty decent overall on the Air vs Air engages, and it is not bulky, so on costs and supply I see it OK, not sure about the Siege Mode...
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I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
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I've only really played against liberator + bio mine which crushes lair mass muta style. I found if u add a few corruptor and rush hive u can defend though. Not sure about mech. Idk they are definately wayyy stronger than thors but zerg hive tech is buffed as well.
On a side note i think all the helbat liberator rush builds are pretty holdable
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I think right now the Liberator is too good at anti-ground and not good enough at its intended purpose -- countering Mutalisks. Throw in the fact that an armory gives you Hellbats AND AG weapons for the Liberator and things start to get silly.
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The ravager has a lot of potentials to explore. You can use them to shoot liberators down since it must be sieged in anti-ground mode.
On July 21 2015 11:16 Clear World wrote:
Personally, I would had love the Liberator to be moved to Tec-Lab + Armory Requirement, with their supply cost increasing to 4, cost increasing to 200/200, with some buffs, like health buff, bonus light damage for air (since they are more designed to counter Mass Muta & Phoenix) and maybe an additional armor.
Then maybe, they could move Raven to Reactor so Terran has additional for a more easier access to a supper unit (assuming the Raven's abilities are adjusted well).
No gas-intensive unit is designed to be mass produced, especially a spellcaster.
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Liberator is what the siege tank should be - allow you to leapfrog a push across the map. Tanks unfortunately don't do enough damage because they were nerfed shortly after wings of liberty was released and no one knew how to play the game at that time and thought mech was imba.
That's why most WOL/HOTS games are frustrating turtle mech games (for the person playing it and the opponent) because tanks suck in low numbers and you can NEVER move out on the map with them.
Liberators are great in low numbers you can really feel the impact of the unit because it does damage like the old siege tank used to. It really is zone control, your enemy can't just walk into an area with a liberator and be like "haha i don't care." Because they will lose a ton of units.
That is what the siege tank was SUPPOSED to be doing this entire time, making someone scared to a-move into a tank line or anywhere in range unless they were going to commit to the engagement and trade.
Liberator already has huge weaknesses/counters even more so than the siege tank. If you mis-position it and don't target it in a smart manner or cover it with other units, it dies in like 4 shots to things like hydras or stalkers lol.
I started playing the beta again and really am enjoying TvZ / TvT solely because of this unit adding so much to positional play.
With all the above being said, from my perspective of someone that has played 1000's of boring turtle mech games because the gameplay design of SC2 forced me to sit in my base till i had 20 ravens and 20 tanks etc...it feels really fun to be able to be out on the map with liberators and mech units doing a slow leap frog push brood war style and be able to trade against my opponent's units.
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why do i not read infestor a single time in this thread? area damage is always the answer to mass air styles. fungle and maybe some vipers to pull out liberators to kill them with hydras.
or just move around them like everybody does with broodlords
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Well, siege tanks can be added in bio play now, as they can be carried by medivacs in siege mode. You don't need to have them in large number. Just a few in strategic positions could scare the enemies off.
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Everyone knows this is OP as hell at armory you get the AG mode + hellbats before the other guy got spire, 15 range that 1 shots hydras + fire power on the ground.
Its very dumb... dont know how this got in th beta, this and the invulnerable part of disruptor.
Stupid design its stupid.
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On July 21 2015 19:22 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Everyone knows this is OP as hell at armory you get the AG mode + hellbats before the other guy got spire, 15 range that 1 shots hydras + fire power on the ground.
Its very dumb... dont know how this got in th beta, this and the invulnerable part of disruptor.
Stupid design its stupid.
What's your opinion on 8 armor ultras and parasitic bomb rendering air tech useless vs zerg? This is ok i guess?
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I have not seen enough games between high level players where liberators are used to comment on the balance.
All I can say is that I really enjoy watching those games. Finally, FINALLY terran can properly control a patch of ground and slow-push across the map. This is what I was waiting for for 5 years. However, in my perfect world the tank would be able to do its job and the liberator would not exist. Sadly, blizzard hates the tank with a passion. I'm sure they would give it cloak before buffing its damage in any way.
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On July 21 2015 14:48 graNite wrote:
why do i not read infestor a single time in this thread? area damage is always the answer to mass air styles. fungle and maybe some vipers to pull out liberators to kill them with hydras.
or just move around them like everybody does with broodlords
Problem is that as soon as they see Infestor they will never clump them intentionally again and because the size of the unit it would be hard to catch more than 3 with a fungal not to mention the damage is negligible because of the huge health pool.
I think the issue with the unit is that both it's AA and ATG mode are very strong. The AA mode isn't too strong in low numbers but when massed it's practically impossible even with very good splits to kill them all.
ATG mode doesn't need too much explaining for it's insane strength 85 damage a shot and a faster cooldown than the siege tank.
Pretty much the only way I've managed to deal with them is taking engagements on creep with spores/queen/hydra but they can abuse high ground/empty space. Baring that you just need to counter attack which is my preferred method since mass liberator can't actually deal with buildings.
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Being accessible without tech lab is the biggest problem I think. Liberators are indeed good vs ground and weak vs air at low numbers and it should be impractical to get a huge fleet of Liberators (once the T has enough of them it's very hard to deal with their AA weapon) with proper ground support.
I agree the AG could be toned down a bit too. The biggest problem with mech units currently is the cyclone honestly, not necessarily because it's too strong, but because it's dull, too all-around and downright uninteresting.
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On July 21 2015 19:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 19:22 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Everyone knows this is OP as hell at armory you get the AG mode + hellbats before the other guy got spire, 15 range that 1 shots hydras + fire power on the ground.
Its very dumb... dont know how this got in th beta, this and the invulnerable part of disruptor.
Stupid design its stupid. What's your opinion on 8 armor ultras and parasitic bomb rendering air tech useless vs zerg? This is ok i guess?
Ghosts new snipe can be used vs Ultralisk and Cyclone/Liberator is very good vs Ultralisk.
PB is late game and only works if you really mass air alot.
Are you telling me that Zerg should have no answer to mass air at all ?
Have you seen Mass carrier or Mass Liberator ?
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^ The Liberator was actually designed to be viable as a massable air unit. Blizz words.
The fact that this thing and the cyclone both overshadow the already unused (and iconic) siege tank is sad IMO.
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On July 21 2015 19:41 dust7 wrote:
I have not seen enough games between high level players where liberators are used to comment on the balance.
All I can say is that I really enjoy watching those games. Finally, FINALLY terran can properly control a patch of ground and slow-push across the map. This is what I was waiting for for 5 years. However, in my perfect world the tank would be able to do its job and the liberator would not exist. Sadly, blizzard hates the tank with a passion. I'm sure they would give it cloak before buffing its damage in any way.
qxc winning redbull torunament without any loss with them... 6 times in a row.
im soory but this is just ignorance or just wanting this to be in the game for free wins.
On July 21 2015 20:32 Salteador Neo wrote:
^ The Liberator was actually designed to be viable as a massable air unit. Blizz words.
The fact that this thing and the cyclone both overshadow the already unused (and iconic) siege tank is sad IMO.
Im okay with that as long as i get to PB and Hive and not just die without any answer to them...
Corruptor and mutalisk cant win vs 20 liberators just as they cant against 10 or more carriers.
This is why they made PB. Its a band aid for zerg lack of AA vs mass air.
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EPT
