On July 21 2015 21:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: [quote]
Ravagers dont work, the ability is to slow, and has only 8-9 range, he can dodge with 2 liberators all day since they buffed the time of switch from AA to ground mode. They broke the Liberator its way to OP
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
On July 21 2015 12:06 GGzerG wrote: I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
its 15 range and if he postions between the space of your 2 and 3 you wont have creep, you will move slow and he will kill your queens.
Do you even play LotV, cuz i see you thraw some ideas that are so lets say impractical ? Have you even watched the red bull torunament where 6 queens where sniped by 1 liberator before even getting to hit it and he used transfuse to.
At least try using that in LotV and then post... cuz man its so dumb.
If you're going for a 4-6 queen style you will easily have creep between your natural and third base. Slightly rich about throwing impractical ideas around, as I said I've not tried going 4-6 queens and was wondering if anyone had tried the style and how it fared, I'm not asserting that it's the best style or even good vs this just asking. Can you link me to the tournament where someone went 6 queens and lost them all to 1 liberator.
Watch the vods where qxc + beastyqt plays they are mostly going for the liberator + hellbat push. And nope you dont have creep toward you 3 when liberator + hellbat comes.
It comes at the 5 min.
My replys can be a bit assholish but im so tired of people defending IMBA stuff and mostly telling me to go ravager vs this when they even dont know if it works.
Best example of Liberator OP is here.
I'm not defending it, I think it's total BS I was just asking whether a heavy queen style has been tried. What time is the game in the 5hr vod?
I can show you a roach ravager replay, but i dont think its that strong vs top tier players
On July 21 2015 21:30 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: [quote]
Ravagers dont work, the ability is to slow, and has only 8-9 range, he can dodge with 2 liberators all day since they buffed the time of switch from AA to ground mode. They broke the Liberator its way to OP
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
On July 21 2015 12:06 GGzerG wrote: I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
its 15 range and if he postions between the space of your 2 and 3 you wont have creep, you will move slow and he will kill your queens.
Do you even play LotV, cuz i see you thraw some ideas that are so lets say impractical ? Have you even watched the red bull torunament where 6 queens where sniped by 1 liberator before even getting to hit it and he used transfuse to.
At least try using that in LotV and then post... cuz man its so dumb.
If you're going for a 4-6 queen style you will easily have creep between your natural and third base. Slightly rich about throwing impractical ideas around, as I said I've not tried going 4-6 queens and was wondering if anyone had tried the style and how it fared, I'm not asserting that it's the best style or even good vs this just asking. Can you link me to the tournament where someone went 6 queens and lost them all to 1 liberator.
Watch the vods where qxc + beastyqt plays they are mostly going for the liberator + hellbat push. And nope you dont have creep toward you 3 when liberator + hellbat comes.
It comes at the 5 min.
My replys can be a bit assholish but im so tired of people defending IMBA stuff and mostly telling me to go ravager vs this when they even dont know if it works.
I'm not defending it, I think it's total BS I was just asking whether a heavy queen style has been tried. What time is the game in the 5hr vod?
edit - I watched the replay at 1:30 he had no creep spread because he hadn't gone for the style I was suggesting he could also have 2 more queens at the time it hits, if he has creep he can zone the liberator out before it gets into that position.
Yes it was used and it failed badly, you can see in one of the matches. The 5hr vod is the whole qualifer 3 of the redbull tournament. I dont have the time stamps where qxc plays with the liberators but you can find them in the video.
They style your talking about was used, i found it here 3.02.00
Just wondering how to play T in LOTV without herc, without OP cylcones, without Bio, without OP liberator, without tanks/medivacs, without no-ebay turrets. I thought that was a LOTV beta, not HoTs
Guys, stop playing around, just remove the Terran race already if that's what you're up too. I don't see how terran is supposed to do anything in LOTV if the only thing left untouched is the BC teleportation and some random useless ghost spell.
The liberator IS too strong, just like the tank drops are, but that's all that the terrans have. If you want to nerf them, you gotta buff other stuff.
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
[quote]
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
its 15 range and if he postions between the space of your 2 and 3 you wont have creep, you will move slow and he will kill your queens.
Do you even play LotV, cuz i see you thraw some ideas that are so lets say impractical ? Have you even watched the red bull torunament where 6 queens where sniped by 1 liberator before even getting to hit it and he used transfuse to.
At least try using that in LotV and then post... cuz man its so dumb.
If you're going for a 4-6 queen style you will easily have creep between your natural and third base. Slightly rich about throwing impractical ideas around, as I said I've not tried going 4-6 queens and was wondering if anyone had tried the style and how it fared, I'm not asserting that it's the best style or even good vs this just asking. Can you link me to the tournament where someone went 6 queens and lost them all to 1 liberator.
Watch the vods where qxc + beastyqt plays they are mostly going for the liberator + hellbat push. And nope you dont have creep toward you 3 when liberator + hellbat comes.
It comes at the 5 min.
My replys can be a bit assholish but im so tired of people defending IMBA stuff and mostly telling me to go ravager vs this when they even dont know if it works.
I'm not defending it, I think it's total BS I was just asking whether a heavy queen style has been tried. What time is the game in the 5hr vod?
edit - I watched the replay at 1:30 he had no creep spread because he hadn't gone for the style I was suggesting he could also have 2 more queens at the time it hits, if he has creep he can zone the liberator out before it gets into that position.
Yes it was used and it failed badly, you can see in one of the matches. The 5hr vod is the whole qualifer 3 of the redbull tournament. I dont have the time stamps where qxc plays with the liberators but you can find them in the video.
They style your talking about was used
Just to clarify my comment was about the second video, they didn't go for the style I was talking about and they executed it badly. I found the game I think at 3hr01min they sort of did what I was saying and I think it's a potentially good style but they didn't spread the creep aggressively enough they used one tumour and delayed spreading it after the first lay down on it. Now if that isn't fast enough you could forgo the first natural queens inject and lay a tumour straight away. If you also notice how much damage the queens did when they finally got within range I think having 4/5 queens with creep spread will be enough to zone it out and kill it. Will be trying this style because I think it has potential.
edit - thanks for finding the time must've found it at the sametime.
On July 21 2015 23:23 Plantarbre wrote: Just wondering how to play T in LOTV without herc, without OP cylcones, without Bio, without OP liberator, without tanks/medivacs, without no-ebay turrets. I thought that was a LOTV beta, not HoTs
Guys, stop playing around, just remove the Terran race already if that's what you're up too. I don't see how terran is supposed to do anything in LOTV if the only thing left untouched is the BC teleportation and some random useless ghost spell.
The liberator IS too strong, just like the tank drops are, but that's all that the terrans have. If you want to nerf them, you gotta buff other stuff.
That goes without saying, abusive units as a bandaid for a 50% winratio isn't a good thing. Fixing the abusive units first then minor tweaks can be made.
I agree, working on the design and viability of the core of the T army (tanks, bio units) should be the priority, rather than giving them abusive cyclones/liberators whatever to artificially maintain a 50-50 winrate.
On July 21 2015 23:45 [PkF] Wire wrote: I agree, working on the design and viability of the core of the T army (tanks, bio units) should be the priority, rather than giving them abusive cyclones/liberators whatever to artificially maintain a 50-50 winrate.
Other than the addition of siege mode pickup, the removal of immortal's hardened shield is already a "work" on the viability of the tank. The less hardcounters the better the game.
On July 21 2015 22:15 lolias wrote: [quote] So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
its 15 range and if he postions between the space of your 2 and 3 you wont have creep, you will move slow and he will kill your queens.
Do you even play LotV, cuz i see you thraw some ideas that are so lets say impractical ? Have you even watched the red bull torunament where 6 queens where sniped by 1 liberator before even getting to hit it and he used transfuse to.
At least try using that in LotV and then post... cuz man its so dumb.
If you're going for a 4-6 queen style you will easily have creep between your natural and third base. Slightly rich about throwing impractical ideas around, as I said I've not tried going 4-6 queens and was wondering if anyone had tried the style and how it fared, I'm not asserting that it's the best style or even good vs this just asking. Can you link me to the tournament where someone went 6 queens and lost them all to 1 liberator.
Watch the vods where qxc + beastyqt plays they are mostly going for the liberator + hellbat push. And nope you dont have creep toward you 3 when liberator + hellbat comes.
It comes at the 5 min.
My replys can be a bit assholish but im so tired of people defending IMBA stuff and mostly telling me to go ravager vs this when they even dont know if it works.
I'm not defending it, I think it's total BS I was just asking whether a heavy queen style has been tried. What time is the game in the 5hr vod?
edit - I watched the replay at 1:30 he had no creep spread because he hadn't gone for the style I was suggesting he could also have 2 more queens at the time it hits, if he has creep he can zone the liberator out before it gets into that position.
Yes it was used and it failed badly, you can see in one of the matches. The 5hr vod is the whole qualifer 3 of the redbull tournament. I dont have the time stamps where qxc plays with the liberators but you can find them in the video.
They style your talking about was used
Just to clarify my comment was about the second video, they didn't go for the style I was talking about and they executed it badly. I found the game I think at 3hr01min they sort of did what I was saying and I think it's a potentially good style but they didn't spread the creep aggressively enough they used one tumour and delayed spreading it after the first lay down on it. Now if that isn't fast enough you could forgo the first natural queens inject and lay a tumour straight away. If you also notice how much damage the queens did when they finally got within range I think having 4/5 queens with creep spread will be enough to zone it out and kill it. Will be trying this style because I think it has potential.
edit - thanks for finding the time must've found it at the sametime.
if you do found way please post the build and a replay... i have yet found any build to stop this with the exception of 2 base muta that sometimes wins if the other player is really bad.
I mostly roach/bane all in or roach/ravager all in because of this, it works cuz on 2 base the terran doesnt have that much and people dont really expect roach/bane all in LotV
On July 21 2015 20:47 Big J wrote: Anyone tried something like ling/bling/corruptor into Broodlord/Viper against bio/liberator yet? Sounds like the way to go (but it's pure theorycraft; haven't tried myself)
What part of you dont get to spire vs hellbat push + Liberator dont you understand ? If you go 2 base muta you will be able to defend it but you get so far behind that you die to the next bio push.
Because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg, zerg always has to have 1 base more then terran or protoss.
Try roaches and ravagers, kkkk
Ravagers dont work, the ability is to slow, and has only 8-9 range, he can dodge with 2 liberators all day since they buffed the time of switch from AA to ground mode. They broke the Liberator its way to OP
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
On July 21 2015 12:06 GGzerG wrote: I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
Here is a replay of a game I just played against the ~5:00 liberator/hellbat push, in which I hold with queens and roaches. Played terribad afterwards and still lost despite probably having quite some lead multiple times but you'll find that what you are talking about - early queens, a bit of creepspread - is quite decent against that play. http://lotv.spawningtool.com/1023/
On July 21 2015 20:47 Big J wrote: Anyone tried something like ling/bling/corruptor into Broodlord/Viper against bio/liberator yet? Sounds like the way to go (but it's pure theorycraft; haven't tried myself)
What part of you dont get to spire vs hellbat push + Liberator dont you understand ? If you go 2 base muta you will be able to defend it but you get so far behind that you die to the next bio push.
Because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg, zerg always has to have 1 base more then terran or protoss.
Try roaches and ravagers, kkkk
Ravagers dont work, the ability is to slow, and has only 8-9 range, he can dodge with 2 liberators all day since they buffed the time of switch from AA to ground mode. They broke the Liberator its way to OP
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
On July 21 2015 12:06 GGzerG wrote: I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
Here is a replay of a game I just played against the ~5:00 liberator/hellbat push, in which I hold with queens and roaches. Played terribad afterwards and still lost despite probably having quite some lead multiple times but you'll find that what you are talking about - early queens, a bit of creepspread - is quite decent against that play. http://lotv.spawningtool.com/1023/
This guy just seems like hes not that good tbh, he just parks them in the middle of the field where queens can hit them, hes not abusing them. You are supposed to use the airspace around the mineral lines to deny mining and force the queens to go in range of the ground attack and get melted.
On July 21 2015 20:57 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote: [quote]
What part of you dont get to spire vs hellbat push + Liberator dont you understand ? If you go 2 base muta you will be able to defend it but you get so far behind that you die to the next bio push.
Because 2 base terran > 2 base zerg, zerg always has to have 1 base more then terran or protoss.
Try roaches and ravagers, kkkk
Ravagers dont work, the ability is to slow, and has only 8-9 range, he can dodge with 2 liberators all day since they buffed the time of switch from AA to ground mode. They broke the Liberator its way to OP
Two Master/GM players have now told you that they currently defend early liberators with ravagers. If you don't believe it, I can't help you. You better bring out some replays how ravager defense fails then.
On July 21 2015 12:06 GGzerG wrote: I think they make going Mutalisks completely pointless, but if you have good Ravenger micro, you can usually kill the liberators / push them away from what I have experienced.
So you can actually defend with a unit that costs 200 Resources early on? That sounds amazing, i bet you are ahead after going fast Ravager, right?
Remember you are defending a unit that costs 300 resources. I've been wondering about going for a heavier queen style (4-6 queens) has anyone tried that?
They rape queens
If they get to the ATG mode in a good position, Queens are 2 shotted not one shot and I think you'd have 2 transfuses when it hits with a 4-6 queen style. I think (going off numbers haven't tried the style wanted to know if anyone else has) that 5/6 queens has enough DPS to kill a liberator before it manages to get to ATG.
I've not tried Ravager, how effective is it and what's the composition afterwards?
Here is a replay of a game I just played against the ~5:00 liberator/hellbat push, in which I hold with queens and roaches. Played terribad afterwards and still lost despite probably having quite some lead multiple times but you'll find that what you are talking about - early queens, a bit of creepspread - is quite decent against that play. http://lotv.spawningtool.com/1023/
This guy just seems like hes not that good tbh, he just parks them in the middle of the field where queens can hit them, hes not abusing them. You are supposed to use the airspace around the mineral lines to deny mining and force the queens to go in range of the ground attack and get melted.
Yeah and I'm supposed to have a spore crawler around the third to prevent him from zoning the ramp and my roaches are a bit late (which is why I don't have ravagers for the push) and I could have crept towards my third earlier/better. But the idea is kind of clear and you can't tell me you don't see the potential here to stop the push, even if it is better executed.
I fully agree that this sort of play could be imbalanced because the range on the liberator is vast and it is very strong with certain terrain features, like as you say, when they park behind mineral lines in air space or above highgrounds. But at the moment it feels like one of many potentially broken tools. I mean, after all there are some quite strong 2base nydus plays (upload queens first, so they unload first and instaheal the nydus once it can be attacked) and all sorts of shit in the game too. I feel like you are taking it for granted that the LotV metagame will be saturated 3bases before anything happens, but at the current stage of the game I feel like 2basish plays are kind of strong in general which gives you options besides rushing a third as zerg and also means your opponents will often not put as much economical pressure on you that would force oyu to expand as fast.
I found something funny. On the liberator introduction page of BLZ's official SC2 blog, a lot of commenters criticized its design and graphic then they went nostalgic saying how they missed Goliath in BW. All I can tell them is, guys, remember that SC2's game designer is named DAVID?
In my experience (random player in beta) these Liberator / hellbat pushes are managed by two things: 1) good creep between natural and third (which means no 2 hatch muta because third is late and liberators will fall back home and mass up which is bad for muta player). 2) an army to crush hellbat push.
Liberator hellbat is strong because liberators zone or kill queens and other units which defend vs hellbats. Liberators by themselves can't do anything because you just micro a queen around it and they will die if they siege 2 or 3 times. So basically you have to stop hellbats and liberators will fallback home. So you either mass up lings + spines to crush hellbats when they engage spines, OR make enough roach/ravager to push them back.
Both spines and spored can't be killed by liberators so your task as a Zerg is to build a couple of spines and spores and defend them by crushing hellbats when they wanna kill static defence.
I thought I said my solution to it currently earlier in this thread: Few spores while going roach vs hellbat as lair finishes, get spire pop 5ish corruptors and go with roach speed to apply pressure while taking 3rd/transition. It's worked rather well for me so far...
On July 22 2015 02:26 Zode wrote: I thought I said my solution to it currently earlier in this thread: Few spores while going roach vs hellbat as lair finishes, get spire pop 5ish corruptors and go with roach speed to apply pressure while taking 3rd/transition. It's worked rather well for me so far...
Yes, you did. So what? You think the whole forum will read your solution and say "problem fixed bro!". Lets show other solutions as well, because this new liberator is out for like a couple of days only and i'm sure there are more ways to counter it.
I'm glad yours work, there are people here that won't believe neither you or me until they get what they want. I still feel faster third and ground defence is a better option because when terran won't commit hardcore, he will be ahead if you skip 3rd base.
How easy is this kind of an attack to scout? Seems like it is a strong push and if it is really difficult to scout it makes for a coinflippy early game which i personally hate.
On July 22 2015 03:02 RaFox17 wrote: How easy is this kind of an attack to scout? Seems like it is a strong push and if it is really difficult to scout it makes for a coinflippy early game which i personally hate.
you can't scout in LotV; unless you commit to allinning with overlords speed of course
EPT
