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On September 22 2015 20:52 wjat wrote:
Blah Blah "Liberator IMBA"...
What about the Warp Prism?? It's the most broken unit in the game at the moment...
That is debatable. There is also the Adept and the Viper with PB to consider, not to mention carriers.
What I do not get is that they nerf the Liberator and you still have people crying that the Liberator is imbalanced. Protoss players have enjoyed dominance throughout the entirety of 2015 (premier and major tournaments) and they are trying to ensure that this remains true.
Time to close this thread, if you are still unable to handle liberators it's not the game's balance that is to blame.
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On September 22 2015 20:52 wjat wrote:
Blah Blah "Liberator IMBA"...
What about the Warp Prism?? It's the most broken unit in the game at the moment...
Well, the "most broken units" in the game are the workers and the overlord. And then the next "most broken" unit is probably the queen. And then there is the mothershipcore that is probably equally "broken". And also there are certain buildings that are "superbroken", like basically every one of them that produces a unit or generates supply.
And from what I'm getting, blizzard is basically trying to make the warp prism a bit like some of those above: a semi-necessary unit, by making it so broken that you cannot pass on it or you won't have offensive warp-ins. Similar to how you cannot pass on queens, or you don't have cheap larva production or how you cannot pass on medivacs, because they synergize strongly with nearly everything, so you should never build a terran army without some of them.
That's a design choice of blizzard: For various reasons they want to have "core units", hence units that are plainly much stronger than others and therefore "core" for your race. There is no choice in building certain stuff, it's plainly necessary to rely on those tools.
Coming back to the liberator, I don't think blizzard wants it to have such a core role.
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On September 22 2015 14:13 Cyro wrote:I have no idea why some of the terrans in top 4 were only playing HOTS-style but there's plenty of examples of these compositions and their power on the pro ladder streams (incidentally, the streams of the players who won that tournament) In another thread there's a guy being pretty crazy about a certain 1base "unstoppable unless you get lucky" adept all in that was never seen in redbull either
It was bizarre to watch, really.
The Liberator rush was nerfed, which directly affected the timing and the resource commitment. It appears that Protoss might have a slightly difficult time engaging into a prepared Terran in the mid game, and this might need some attention, but Protoss is so incredibly strong in the other stages of the game--namely, early game and late game--that I don't really see it as an issue that Terran has a small timing window to maybe do some damage if the Protoss makes a mistake.
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On September 23 2015 00:08 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 14:13 Cyro wrote:Of which we saw exactly none in the Archon grand finals I have no idea why some of the terrans in top 4 were only playing HOTS-style but there's plenty of examples of these compositions and their power on the pro ladder streams (incidentally, the streams of the players who won that tournament) In another thread there's a guy being pretty crazy about a certain 1base "unstoppable unless you get lucky" adept all in that was never seen in redbull either It was bizarre to watch, really. The Liberator rush was nerfed, which directly affected the timing and the resource commitment. It appears that Protoss might have a slightly difficult time engaging into a prepared Terran in the mid game, and this might need some attention, but Protoss is so incredibly strong in the other stages of the game--namely, early game and late game--that I don't really see it as an issue that Terran has a small timing window to maybe do some damage if the Protoss makes a mistake.
TimeSpiral no need to understate Terran power after the early game. T is simply stronger in mid and late game than Protoss. And Carriers, which you can't survive long enough to get in sufficient numbers vs a competent Terran, don't change that. It is not "slightly" but rather very difficult to engage into a prepared Terran in mid game and the timing window is huge. The only thing preventing obvious T domination is the right now very powerful Adept, which either kills T outright or does enough damage to allow P to get into the mid game comfortably. We will see just how strong Liberators are, after the Adept has been nerfed.
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On September 23 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2015 00:08 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 22 2015 14:13 Cyro wrote:Of which we saw exactly none in the Archon grand finals I have no idea why some of the terrans in top 4 were only playing HOTS-style but there's plenty of examples of these compositions and their power on the pro ladder streams (incidentally, the streams of the players who won that tournament) In another thread there's a guy being pretty crazy about a certain 1base "unstoppable unless you get lucky" adept all in that was never seen in redbull either It was bizarre to watch, really. The Liberator rush was nerfed, which directly affected the timing and the resource commitment. It appears that Protoss might have a slightly difficult time engaging into a prepared Terran in the mid game, and this might need some attention, but Protoss is so incredibly strong in the other stages of the game--namely, early game and late game--that I don't really see it as an issue that Terran has a small timing window to maybe do some damage if the Protoss makes a mistake. T is simply stronger in mid and late game than Protoss.
Terran has a window in the midgame, particularly during the "drop phase" of the match-up. In HotS, for a period in the meta, there was an anti-colossus timing where Terran could "pull the boys" and punish a greedy Toss. This is all well known. I don't even know if that mid-gaming timing for Terran truly exists in the current LotV meta, unless the Protoss just chooses to not abuse Terran's weak early game.
On the late-game bit: I doubt many of your Protoss brethren here on TL would agree with you that Terran is stronger than Protoss in the late game. I didn't even think it was controversial to claim such a thing.
Waiting for the next high-level LotV tournament, so we can see all these imba Liberators in action ; )
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Terran has a window in the midgame, particularly during the "drop phase" of the match-up
Am less scared of drops than in HOTS (due to adepts, zealot buff, new overcharge being stronger and generally having more gateways rather than rushing tech against terran, playing phoenix more often to shut down starport play against worse players before it truly begins etc).
it's the >100 supply period where money is still limited that seems hard. There's quite a lot of poking around like walk forward and kill his 4'th and liberators are very good for their cost at that so people build them
On the late-game bit: I doubt many of your Protoss brethren here on TL would agree with you that Terran is stronger than Protoss in the late game. I didn't even think it was controversial to claim such a thing.
In WOL-HOTS, hell no. LOTV is a lot different, i really don't know about max fights (game changes a lot when you can throw away units and rebuild your composition with more of an emphasis on effectiveness in a fight instead of availability to attack/defend) but i know a lot of high level protosses are struggling against those army comps in the midgame, including the ones that won redbull
Protoss players have enjoyed dominance throughout the entirety of 2015 (premier and major tournaments) and they are trying to ensure that this remains true.
Stop with the obsession with with race is dominant. If there's anything that hasn't changed about this game it's the amount of people following everyone around to talk of racial bias and how they can't possibly have any motivation aside from wanting a specific race to dominate the pro scene. It happens for literally all races unless one of them is doing badly enough to make news headlines for long periods of time, stop it. As always this has always been at least partially a design discussion since it's not locked in yet
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On September 23 2015 08:26 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Terran has a window in the midgame, particularly during the "drop phase" of the match-up Am less scared of drops than in HOTS (due to adepts, zealot buff, new overcharge being stronger and generally having more gateways rather than rushing tech against terran, playing phoenix more often to shut down starport play against worse players before it truly begins etc). it's the >100 supply period where money is still limited that seems hard. There's quite a lot of poking around like walk forward and kill his 4'th and liberators are very good for their cost at that so people build them Show nested quote +On the late-game bit: I doubt many of your Protoss brethren here on TL would agree with you that Terran is stronger than Protoss in the late game. I didn't even think it was controversial to claim such a thing. In WOL-HOTS, hell no. LOTV is a lot different, i really don't know about max fights (game changes a lot when you can throw away units and rebuild your composition with more of an emphasis on effectiveness in a fight instead of availability to attack/defend) but i know a lot of high level protosses are struggling against those army comps in the midgame, including the ones that won redbull
Hmm. I really didn't think you'd push back on that. Just to be clear, are you saying late-game Terran is stronger than late-game Protoss (in general terms)?
Cuz it really does feel like Protoss getting to Carrier + [ANYTHING (usually zealot archon, or maybe colossus if they're trollishly better)] is a win condition in TvP. Everything sucks versus interceptors. Liberators splash doesn't kill them fast enough. Thor does slightly better against Interceptors because of armor and tanky HP, but still not enough. Anything out of the barracks is obviously lolrly. Widow Mines will crush Interceptors, with the very real problems that (a) they can't fucking move (<-- kinda a big one), and (b) since interceptors are directly overhead your army, the friendly-fire damage is not worth it. You just lose everything. Vikings are obviously bad.
Is the answer really Battlecruisers with full energy and Yamato cannon?
Generally, it feels like Terran "getting to" Thor or Battlecruiser is more like, "Oh shit, this guy built Battlecruisers. Hahahaha! He must not know ..."
Zealot/Archon/Storm+robo or stargate is obviously super-duper strong in late-game scenarios. Stronger than Ghost Bio Medivac, but maybe not stronger than Ghost Bio Liberator?
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I'm new to Void. Will someone that isn't silver please tell me how massing liberators isn't an option vs zerg? I recently had a 40 minute game where we almost mined out the map.
I maxed, albeit slowly, a ling/ultra army and destroyed most of his base, but he just relocated and with so many liberators, there didn't seem to be anything I could do. I made corruptors, vipers, even hydras, but nothing seemed to work. Once he had enough, I couldn't even avoid them anymore.
I'm not asking for complicated gameplay advice. I'm just wondering how I should think of this unit.
For instance, way back in WoL, I used to have trouble with phoenix openers until I realized I should just be counter-attacking instead of defending. What's the weakness of this unit?
Thanks guys
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On September 24 2015 11:25 danl9rm wrote:
I'm new to Void. Will someone that isn't silver please tell me how massing liberators isn't an option vs zerg? I recently had a 40 minute game where we almost mined out the map.
I maxed, albeit slowly, a ling/ultra army and destroyed most of his base, but he just relocated and with so many liberators, there didn't seem to be anything I could do. I made corruptors, vipers, even hydras, but nothing seemed to work. Once he had enough, I couldn't even avoid them anymore.
I'm not asking for complicated gameplay advice. I'm just wondering how I should think of this unit.
For instance, way back in WoL, I used to have trouble with phoenix openers until I realized I should just be counter-attacking instead of defending. What's the weakness of this unit?
Thanks guys
Diamond Z here. Only half decent antiair that zerg got is Parasitic Bomb. So if they're turtling, take 4-5 bases as you start teching to hive as soon as possible. You can also take a nap while waiting in those "exciting" turtle games that mechers and blizzard love. Make 5 or more Vipers, use consume to get them to full energy while making 15 or more corruptors to give them cover. When done, you use the corruptors as meatshield and try to get all his units under Parasitic Bombs. You wanna cast them as soon as you can tho, cause your stuff will die fast. That should kill all his ships tho, since mechers can't micro.
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On September 24 2015 04:12 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2015 08:26 Cyro wrote:Terran has a window in the midgame, particularly during the "drop phase" of the match-up Am less scared of drops than in HOTS (due to adepts, zealot buff, new overcharge being stronger and generally having more gateways rather than rushing tech against terran, playing phoenix more often to shut down starport play against worse players before it truly begins etc). it's the >100 supply period where money is still limited that seems hard. There's quite a lot of poking around like walk forward and kill his 4'th and liberators are very good for their cost at that so people build them On the late-game bit: I doubt many of your Protoss brethren here on TL would agree with you that Terran is stronger than Protoss in the late game. I didn't even think it was controversial to claim such a thing. In WOL-HOTS, hell no. LOTV is a lot different, i really don't know about max fights (game changes a lot when you can throw away units and rebuild your composition with more of an emphasis on effectiveness in a fight instead of availability to attack/defend) but i know a lot of high level protosses are struggling against those army comps in the midgame, including the ones that won redbull Hmm. I really didn't think you'd push back on that. Just to be clear, are you saying late-game Terran is stronger than late-game Protoss (in general terms)? Cuz it really does feel like Protoss getting to Carrier + [ANYTHING (usually zealot archon, or maybe colossus if they're trollishly better)] is a win condition in TvP. Everything sucks versus interceptors. Liberators splash doesn't kill them fast enough. Thor does slightly better against Interceptors because of armor and tanky HP, but still not enough. Anything out of the barracks is obviously lolrly. Widow Mines will crush Interceptors, with the very real problems that (a) they can't fucking move (<-- kinda a big one), and (b) since interceptors are directly overhead your army, the friendly-fire damage is not worth it. You just lose everything. Vikings are obviously bad. Is the answer really Battlecruisers with full energy and Yamato cannon? Generally, it feels like Terran "getting to" Thor or Battlecruiser is more like, "Oh shit, this guy built Battlecruisers. Hahahaha! He must not know ..." Zealot/Archon/Storm+robo or stargate is obviously super-duper strong in late-game scenarios. Stronger than Ghost Bio Medivac, but maybe not stronger than Ghost Bio Liberator?
I think getting to a large amount of carriers without dying is an insanely difficult thing to do. Rushing to carriers in PvT is fairly terrible, from what i've seen from terran LotV streams, you just basically kill them if they do that. Transitioning to them is a huge resource cost that makes you extremely vulnerable, not to mention they have a massive build time that is arguably worsened by the new chronoboost. Not saying carriers aren't strong, but at least at the moment I don't consider it to be a reliable viable late time composition. Interceptors cost a lost of money and LotV is very different to HotS, it's a lot harder to sit there and build a bank to afford them when your bases are running out so quick, (and maxing out in general seems relatively uncommon in LotV compared to HotS).
So i consider late game to be similar to mid game in terms of composition, but slightly more well rounded, e.g.. a terran army of ghost bio liberator. I'd say this army atm is definitely stronger than anything protoss can build (not including carriers for the reasons above). In HotS, the protoss composition was so strong because it could include colossi and storm. In LotV, that former is now irrelevant. That leaves just storm, and I don't think any terrans would complain much about a pure storm army. Considering that protoss lost one of its most important units in the matchup, while terran gained an important unit, it's not hard to see why protoss has the short end of the stick past the early game, especially since adepts scale so poorly with upgrades. Now, a week ago i would've said disruptors are completely useless in PvT and have zero place in the matchup. After playing over 100 games this week and watching streams for hours, I actually think disruptors could potentially have some sort of place in PvT that might even out the scales a bit, but I've yet to see that in action so it's just pure speculation at this point.
Of course, all these things could definitely change in the next couple months, given that this is a beta. Unfortunately the mid-late game of TvP is very unexplored atm due to adepts sort of just ending the game before it gets there atm. Once adepts get nerfed somehow, it'll be easier to understand how the matchup works in this game. But i think at least at the moment, terran has some advantage past the early stages of the game, although we might have to wait a week or two to actually see that.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Hmm. I really didn't think you'd push back on that. Just to be clear, are you saying late-game Terran is stronger than late-game Protoss (in general terms)?
I'm saying that T does much better than they used to and protoss struggles in games between the early game and the point where you both have 10k/10k banked and the freedom to build literally anything. Never been in one of those last situations yet
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On September 25 2015 02:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Hmm. I really didn't think you'd push back on that. Just to be clear, are you saying late-game Terran is stronger than late-game Protoss (in general terms)? I'm saying that T does much better than they used to and protoss struggles in games between the early game and the point where you both have 10k/10k banked and the freedom to build literally anything. Never been in one of those last situations yet
... because of the Liberator?
And the gap between early game and 10k/10k banks is pretty lol. I consider late-game to be 3/3 upgrades, Hive, Storm / Fleet Beacon, etc ... 10k banks are so incredibly rare in LotV, in my experience, and in the experiences I've had with spectating pro matches. I would call that something like Ultra Late Game.
(We're not running for office, brother. You don't have to be so guarded with your words.)
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
(We're not running for office, brother. You don't have to be so guarded with your words.)
People take offense very easily when talking about game balance/design! 
liberator is part of the reason, it's just quite hard to fight bio in decently sized blobs with medivacs and ghosts available - adepts don't really work any more. I was just looking over some of my replays and there's a few pretty funny stalemates where everything gets EMP'd, disruptors blow up half of terrans units and then almost nothing dies in the next 20 seconds of the battle because it's marauders with a few ghosts under some medivacs shooting at adepts
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1489 Posts
I really hope they nerf it so that you don't HAVE TO invest in RW every game and invest into 4 ravagers every game when you want to play without roaches etc. Spores+queens should be enough.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I don't think spores+queens should be a catch-all defense but the same thing affects protoss as nothing can reach them unless it's built out of a stargate and that's a little odd
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On September 15 2015 08:24 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 07:42 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 15 2015 06:46 GGzerG wrote:
People saying that the answer to Terran liberators being absolutely broken vs Zerg are Vipers and Brood lords are clearly playing this game at such a low level, a spell caster at Hive tech and T3 Tech cannot be the logical answer to being completely unable to correctly ingage due to Liberators, also if Terran has 10 Liberators with his composition and has them split out with a nice number of Vikings, what is the answer then? Parasitic bomb all day, go back consume, do it again, and hope you win?
Please.....
The low level analysis and Terran players defending liberators is funny, also saying Roach Ravager Hydra is the answer to mech is also silly.
Tank + Liberator outscales and outranges ravagers so easily, throw a few banshees in the mix in the early game before hydras are there and it is even easier. All Terran has to do is micro decent and not get hit by Corrosive bile, there is no way for Zerg to properly engage.
Every Terran player that thinks Zerg can easily tech up to Parasitic Bomb and that is the answer to everything, you clearly know nothing about this game and are playing at a really low level. Well you do realise that he was talking about a HotS game don't you? There are a lot of imbalances at the moment and it will release unbalanced due to the 10th November release date. The 13 range Ravager is not an answer to siege tanks and Liberators? The Liberator needing a TL for an AG upgrade is not an answer to slowing the number of Liberators you will face? Blizzard is dealing with it - are you saying you want even more? 13 Range Ravager is NOT the answer for SIEGE TANKS & Liberators, Do you think you can just mass a bunch of 13 range Ravagers, and take out a tank line / liberator line with ease? Please do post replays of this happening, thanks.
No, I think that you probably have to build some other units too, you know it's a composition that you should aim for.
Seems that Blizz agree, 13 range counters Mech as some of us said so they are removing this ill advised upgrade. I am very grateful for DKs acknowledgement of this as mech was ridiculously bad against ravagers with 13 range if the Z was good.
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EPT
