EPTLiberator in TVZ : is it imba? - Page 28
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
And TvZ hard? top 50 gm had like 9 zergs in LoTV, must have been so hard to beat Zerg. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On September 18 2015 16:11 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Happy it got nerfed. And TvZ hard? top 50 gm had like 9 zergs in LoTV, must have been so hard to beat Zerg. There aren't as many korean zergs playing from what I'm seeing. Also I've been seeing vibe crush nova/top majority of the time. Roach Ravager > Mech. and if you do play muta style and get to BL/Viper/Corruptors its nearly unbeatable. Bio/mech still pretty viable. That's just my impression from streams and playing. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 18 2015 13:04 Cyro wrote: Not really damage output, just the way that they can guarantee that damage to happen if you're attacking into them or backed into a corner (during any kind of attack) because he can daisy chain the zones together fairly easily and kite through them or stand inside them without friendly fire. It's much easier to place them abusively from a unit that has wings and is 1.5x faster than a sentry or tank with substantially higher range. Phoenix just feels like an awkward/bad response as some people in this thread have stated that liberator is, by design, an AOE anti-light-air unit Liberator is performing all of its design functions very well in the midgame - it's tailor made for abusing protoss with or without phoenix and the responses don't have the luxury of being tailor made for anti-lib+bio I get what you're saying. I think a lot of this has to do with perception. And I think a lot of this has to do with the warning graphic. (And before I continue, I can see why you think the warning graphic is necessary. It's a fine argument.) Part of the beauty of the Liberator is the psychological effect it seems to have on my opponents (this will fade, though, with time). You throw down that circle, they see it, and think, "ahh, fuck. Can't attack into that or I'm going to take damage!" Yeah, not shit you're going to take damage. Same way you would if you walked into range of [insert any ranged unit]. But, you can't see a marine's range, you can't see a Hydra's range, you can't see a Colossus's range, so it doesn't impose that type of effect -- alright, maybe the Colossus does, lol : ) So, the Terran gets into a position, wants an engagement, throws down the targeting areas, and now the opponent knows: Terran wants a fight. And you may not want to fight in that area. So it feels like you're submitting to guaranteed damage. But why is guaranteed damage all of the sudden a bad thing? If I walk into Colossus range, when Protoss wants a fight, I'm taking guaranteed damage. But it can also be a deterrent. Maybe the Terran needs to retreat, throws down some Lib zones, and walks into it. It's a defensive position. Similar to--but not equal to--defensive Storms. Throw some storms, disengage, and make the Terran walk into lethal hell if he wants to pursue you. Yes, the damage output is high, but as you implied, not insanely high, when you consider the unit in context of all three matchups. I truly believe one of the most effective elements of the unit is the visual impact it has on opponent perception. It also might be that Protoss doesn't have a great air unit response. Obviously, if the Liberator is in AG mode, Phoenix will shrek them, because they're sitting ducks. If they're in AA mode, then they're not attack your ground army, and that's a win too, right? Phoenix splitting, and tactical maneuvering might need to become a thing because I'm not sure the Void Ray is a reasonable response (the VR being the Viking or the Corrupter of the Toss Sky army). If it goes to the mid-late/late game, and Toss gets carriers though, Terran has no reasonable response to that, atm. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
And P really does not have an air counter that works well against the composition Liberators are used as a part of. Sure Voids are good on paper (in a unit tester), but in real matches they kill Liberators kind of fast and then die to marines in no time. And Voids are more expensive than Liberators, meaning that you will have less ground army than T and just die. The Tempest has the same problem. Phoenix die straight up to a lower number of Liberators, which is why they can't be built, aside from a few very early in the match, to prevent single Liberators from blocking your mineral lines. The only air unit that is good against Liberators and Bio is the Carrier. The problem is getting there. But aside from that, I don't like that P should always have to go for T3 to counter Terran's lower tier units. We already have that on the ground, we don't need that in the air as well. | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 18 2015 16:11 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Happy it got nerfed. And TvZ hard? top 50 gm had like 9 zergs in LoTV, must have been so hard to beat Zerg. top16 had one zerg at some point yesterday, I'm happy to have been one of those who survived in top50 lol I like the tech lab change, terran finally has to commit to previously low risk high reward unit that dealt game ending damage nine times out of ten just because of how fast it came + mule & supply drop that rocketed terran's economy through the roof | ||
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GDI
United States69 Posts
Therefor I think the liberator research to transform into siege-mode should be removed from the game and have the liberator require a tech lab. Additionally I think the tech lab should have a research upgrade allowing the liberator to be built from reactors. This would solve the problem with a stupid amount of liberators in the early game as well as still allowing the terran to rebuild/transition into liberators in the later game. Also losing your armory in a base trade is such bull crap. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
But why is guaranteed damage all of the sudden a bad thing? If I walk into Colossus range, when Protoss wants a fight, I'm taking guaranteed damage. But it can also be a deterrent. Colossi cost a lot in resources, take longer to build and need a 400/400 building+research that takes forever so if you're opening colossi vs bio, that's pretty much all you're doing. Colossi were also nerfed to unusability in LOTV because of the relationships they had with other units. Engaging into bio supported by 6 libs has the feeling of engaging into a 3 colossus army without marauders or vikings | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 19 2015 08:52 Cyro wrote: Colossi cost a lot in resources, take longer to build and need a 400/400 building+research that takes forever so if you're opening colossi vs bio, that's pretty much all you're doing. Colossi were also nerfed to unusability in LOTV because of the relationships they had with other units. Engaging into bio supported by 6 libs has the feeling of engaging into a 3 colossus army without marauders or vikings They do, it does, and yeah. But I wasn't talking about any of that : ) Anyway, haven't got to watch all of RedBull Archon Finals yet, but I'm expecting this thread will blow up with examples of the imba Liberator! | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 21 2015 00:10 TimeSpiral wrote: They do, it does, and yeah. But I wasn't talking about any of that : ) Anyway, haven't got to watch all of RedBull Archon Finals yet, but I'm expecting this thread will blow up with examples of the imba Liberator! + Show Spoiler + It didn't come to that. MMA/Bomber came unprepared and were playing like it was HotS. As one would expect, they got wrecked by Adept/WP play. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
Exactly the point. Watched every game of the grand finals. + Show Spoiler + A singular Liberator was built, and it was a proxy Starport rush, and it was versus Protoss. When a unit or strategy if obviously broken, you tend to see it quite often. Like the Adept, for instance. p.s. you should really spoiler tag your response, Cheddar : / | ||
Ryndika
1489 Posts
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 21 2015 09:22 TimeSpiral wrote: Exactly the point. Watched every game of the grand finals. + Show Spoiler + A singular Liberator was built, and it was a proxy Starport rush, and it was versus Protoss. When a unit or strategy if obviously broken, you tend to see it quite often. Like the Adept, for instance. p.s. you should really spoiler tag your response, Cheddar : / It was played on the newest patch, meaning + Show Spoiler + that it was not a good idea to rush to liberators. MMA/Bomber still won that game, IIRC. | ||
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 21 2015 23:08 CheddarToss wrote: It was played on the newest patch, meaning + Show Spoiler + that it was not a good idea to rush to liberators. MMA/Bomber still won that game, IIRC. New patch, yes. It's about a 90-second-ish rush nerf (on paper), and a minor cost nerf. Though this can be looked at in a few ways. Travel time, etc ... + Show Spoiler + Incidentally, you remembered incorrectly, and so did I. It was Violet and Masa that proxied the Liberator. And, they lost exactly like you'd expect. Protoss casually built a single-unit doomdrop machine that grants 6-range blink to all nearby ground units. They plopped in some Adepts, and that was all she wrote. When the Liberator showed up, they built a VR and pushed it away taking very little damage. The Terran was utterly stomped into the ground. Literally, we saw a two-base Protoss warp prism adept attack into immortal / void ray with double forge for good measure. It was lulz. It matters little though, what happened in that game, because many of the complaints listed here hinge on Liberators included in bio compositions. + Show Spoiler + Of which we saw exactly none in the Archon grand finals. Seems awfully pretentious to write it off as unprepared professionals, when comparing it to casual beta testing by amateurs. Not saying the Liberator is completely fine, of course. Just saying that it's clearly not broken. Like the Adept. Like the Warp prism. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
How where the Terran players prepared, when they were hell bent on ending the games early? Everybody knows that that is NOT what you need to do in LotV against Protoss. On the contrary, you have to play like Protoss does in HotS, because the roles are reversed now. As Terran you have to keep defending until you get your strong late game army ready. What we saw during Redbull was not Adept or WP being OP, but rather what happens when you play against the metagame. It is as though Terrans were doing a mass reaper strat in HotS and then arguing that Zerg is OP, because it didn't work. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 22 2015 01:16 CheddarToss wrote: + Show Spoiler + How where the Terran players prepared, when they were hell bent on ending the games early? Everybody knows that that is NOT what you need to do in LotV against Protoss. On the contrary, you have to play like Protoss does in HotS, because the roles are reversed now. As Terran you have to keep defending until you get your strong late game army ready. What we saw during Redbull was not Adept or WP being OP, but rather what happens when you play against the metagame. It is as though Terrans were doing a mass reaper strat in HotS and then arguing that Zerg is OP, because it didn't work. Discussing the Adept and WP in any more detail, I think, would be to venture outside of the scope of this thread (the Adept will undoubtedly get a just-Nerfing in the next balance patch). + Show Spoiler + The latest patch corresponded with the RedBull Archon Grand Finals. Lots of TvZ and lots of TvP and one Liberator to go around. Not saying this settles the argument, but it certainly punctuates it. Anyway, moving on. We'll see if the Liberator is a point of contention in the next community update / balance patch (it shouldn't be, imo). | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Of which we saw exactly none in the Archon grand finals I have no idea why some of the terrans in top 4 were only playing HOTS-style but there's plenty of examples of these compositions and their power on the pro ladder streams (incidentally, the streams of the players who won that tournament) In another thread there's a guy being pretty crazy about a certain 1base "unstoppable unless you get lucky" adept all in that was never seen in redbull either | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 22 2015 14:13 Cyro wrote: In another thread there's a guy being pretty crazy about a certain 1base "unstoppable unless you get lucky" adept all in that was never seen in redbull either Holy cow, man, I open up this thread and find this post. I'm laughing my ass off. Not only do you insist on claiming I'm talking about a 1 base build in that other thread, you say it here too? Why do you think I'm talking about a 1 base build? Why, do you keep saying it? And in another thread, a TvZ thread no less! At this point that's all I want to know. I don't care about the build, or the debate, or anything else, I just want to hear the chain of reasoning that brought you to the conclusion that I was talking about a build on 1 base. I apologize for any pain or suffering you or your loved ones have ever felt whether or not it was my fault and will sacrifice a goat daily at an alter to bring you good fortune if you'll merely tell me why you keep claiming this! If your explanation is detailed, sincere, and logical, I'll even donate to your favorite charity (provided it isn't something weird and objectionable). On September 22 2015 08:14 Bohemond wrote: The 4gate robo build in question is done on 2 base Please, take note of the time stamps. EDIT: Seriously, if you give an honest answer taking into account the facts, 100 USD to the cause of your choice. User was warned for this post | ||
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wjat
385 Posts
What about the Warp Prism?? It's the most broken unit in the game at the moment... | ||
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