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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Liberators have like 15 range, they don't give any fucks about static defense or even stalkers and such
Every time I've lost against liberator hellbat push I feel as if I could have done better
Every time i lose against it (not that often TBH), i'm reminded to make more phoenix's earlier as there's not really much other response to liberator-bio. This is zerg thread, but you should consider the POV of other races too. The liberator in its current form doesn't work well IMO. It's too easy to get 6-8 of them and when you have that count, ground army of any form can be annihilated - even if their range was halved, they'd still be very powerful. The range is just the icing on the cake. They have a fairly good splash anti-air attack and great mobility through wings and movement speed, so i feel that they don't need to produce this quickly or be this dominant against ground in order to be a good unit that works.
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SoCal8910 Posts
originally i was losing to the lib/hellbat push a lot. now i feel much more confident defending it because i've had some experience against it. im truthfully not ready to say that the liberator is hella op at this point in the game. however i do think that it is incredibly easy to use and really puts a lot of pressure on their opponent to respond perfectly or just get annihilated when the libs reach critical mass. i think that's what makes the unit "op" more than anything.
that said, it would nice to see either a rate of fire decrease or a damage decrease at the cost of an HP or armor buff to the unit. id gladly have it take 1 more ravager shot if it didn't murder my stuff in like 2 hits while i try to get in range.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
We seemed to handle it fine with air toss or phoenix+ground but the design itself is frustrating, probably the range is the worst thing there. It's extremely good at its anti-ground job but it also comes out early (it's a t2 unit, not t3), produces really fast (no addon or reactor) and is also really fast with a very solid air to air attack.
Another unit that i feel is strong now is the Adept - but there are clear weaknesses. It's fairly low range, only does 43% of its damage to armored targets and can't shoot up. The liberator kinda does everything
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- reactored
- 15 range
- 85 damage
- only need armory for AG
- can be put at 5 min in the game
What other unit can you get this fast and be this powerfull ? I tell you... NONE
Lukers needs Lair then Lurker Den, doesnt have crazy range
Siege Tanks cost alot, doesnt do the same insane ammout of damage, need Medivac to harass insanely and even that gets nerfed by 0.75 delay
Disruptors requires alot of tech and even tho it has alot of damage, the range is not insane and you wont see them at 5 min
Cmon... everyone with any sense of logic knows this units needs nerfs.
- tech lab
- lower damage
- lower range
- AG research
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
- can be put at 5 min in the game
Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game 
They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will
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IMO you need 1 spore forward and 2-3 ravagers along with some roaches prepared before the attack arrives. If needed get some scouting roaches and if you see hellbat attack prepared, pull them back and consider whether to make 2 ravager at that point. You'd be surprised how well ravager do against hellbat, too. A late lair comes with it, with earlier 3rd and quicker saturation. Biggest problem you'll face is tank drop, but that can also be dealt with. Not a huge problem IMO. Admittedly I'm not playing against the best liberator hellbat micro at this point. My biggest complaint about liberators is they make TvZ alot less fun. You can't use mutas very well, instead you have to maneuver around with clunky ravagers avoiding a circle of death which your units will randomly wander into at times. It's a nerve wracking and irritating style. Unforgiving too. I just much prefer the matchup with mutas as a core unit
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 01 2015 03:07 EazyMoney96 wrote:
- reactored
- 15 range
- 85 damage
- only need armory for AG
- can be put at 5 min in the game
What other unit can you get this fast and be this powerfull ? I tell you... NONE
Lukers needs Lair then Lurker Den, doesnt have crazy range
Siege Tanks cost alot, doesnt do the same insane ammout of damage, need Medivac to harass insanely and even that gets nerfed by 0.75 delay
Disruptors requires alot of tech and even tho it has alot of damage, the range is not insane and you wont see them at 5 min
Cmon... everyone with any sense of logic knows this units needs nerfs.
- tech lab
- lower damage
- lower range
- AG research
you have to consider it's biggest downside - if you're getting liberators, in low numbers you can maneuver around the ground attack quite easily. so if you're getting them really quickly, anything with high mobility will be a huge hassle. big gateway or roach attacks can take advantage of this. not to mention the lack of economic followup that rushed liberators create (which is why you don't see the above comparisons rushed)
that said, i think your comparisons are mildly accurate but you also need to consider that each of them have upsides and downsides that the liberators don't have.
On September 01 2015 03:18 crazedrat wrote:
IMO you need 1 spore forward and 2-3 ravagers along with some roaches prepared before the attack arrives. If needed get some scouting roaches and if you see hellbat attack prepared, pull them back and consider whether to make 2 ravager at that point. You'd be surprised how well ravager do against hellbat, too. A late lair comes with it, with earlier 3rd and quicker saturation. Biggest problem you'll face is tank drop, but that can also be dealt with. Not a huge problem IMO. Admittedly I'm not playing against the best liberator hellbat micro at this point. My biggest complaint about liberators is they make TvZ alot less fun. You can't use mutas very well, instead you have to maneuver around with clunky ravagers avoiding a circle of death which your units will randomly wander into at times. It's a nerve wracking and irritating style. Unforgiving too. I just much prefer the matchup with mutas as a core unit
if you can get out anywhere from 4-6 ravagers you're pretty set because they also do well vs the hellbats with their increased range and flame attack. spores are nice if you can get them up, but you have to really position them well otherwise the hellbats can just eat em up. i usually get 1 or 2 on top of my production/queens so that i can't get camped along with 1 spine where the attack is coming from.
alternatively, some zerg players are trying 2 base lair/muta builds to deal with them. if the terran has a 2nd base, he won't have enough money to sit under turrets with the libs, which can be out-micro'd in small numbers (like when this timing hits).
admittedly mass muta is irritating to deal with as a mech player because thors sorta suck in low numbers, are expensive, and clunky. widow mines do alright, but any good zerg player carries an overseer. investing too much money in turrets lowers the number of hellions you can produce too, so i truthfully do think that terran needed a bit of assistance in the mobility department.
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When MULE will be put in the game, economy wont be a problem to rush 2 Liberators and put them into death spaces to deny mining.
We saw this from QxC and beatyqt vs protoss, Zerg rushed Spire every game becuase of that.
Really i dont see any god damn disadvantage to get 2 liberators in the early game.
On September 01 2015 03:14 Cyro wrote:Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will
No i dont play Terran, mainly Zerg and offrace as Protoss.
And even tho i see people complain about Adepts, Liberators are 10x times dumber then Adepts.
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80% of the ZvTs i face Liberator Hellbat push (this alone should be a reason to nerf it). No choice but blindly rush spire. Still, by the time spire is done, terran is already sieged in your face.
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On September 01 2015 03:40 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 03:07 EazyMoney96 wrote:
- reactored
- 15 range
- 85 damage
- only need armory for AG
- can be put at 5 min in the game
What other unit can you get this fast and be this powerfull ? I tell you... NONE
Lukers needs Lair then Lurker Den, doesnt have crazy range
Siege Tanks cost alot, doesnt do the same insane ammout of damage, need Medivac to harass insanely and even that gets nerfed by 0.75 delay
Disruptors requires alot of tech and even tho it has alot of damage, the range is not insane and you wont see them at 5 min
Cmon... everyone with any sense of logic knows this units needs nerfs.
- tech lab
- lower damage
- lower range
- AG research
you have to consider it's biggest downside - if you're getting liberators, in low numbers you can maneuver around the ground attack quite easily. so if you're getting them really quickly, anything with high mobility will be a huge hassle. big gateway or roach attacks can take advantage of this. not to mention the lack of economic followup that rushed liberators create (which is why you don't see the above comparisons rushed) that said, i think your comparisons are mildly accurate but you also need to consider that each of them have upsides and downsides that the liberators don't have. Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 03:18 crazedrat wrote:
IMO you need 1 spore forward and 2-3 ravagers along with some roaches prepared before the attack arrives. If needed get some scouting roaches and if you see hellbat attack prepared, pull them back and consider whether to make 2 ravager at that point. You'd be surprised how well ravager do against hellbat, too. A late lair comes with it, with earlier 3rd and quicker saturation. Biggest problem you'll face is tank drop, but that can also be dealt with. Not a huge problem IMO. Admittedly I'm not playing against the best liberator hellbat micro at this point. My biggest complaint about liberators is they make TvZ alot less fun. You can't use mutas very well, instead you have to maneuver around with clunky ravagers avoiding a circle of death which your units will randomly wander into at times. It's a nerve wracking and irritating style. Unforgiving too. I just much prefer the matchup with mutas as a core unit if you can get out anywhere from 4-6 ravagers you're pretty set because they also do well vs the hellbats with their increased range and flame attack. spores are nice if you can get them up, but you have to really position them well otherwise the hellbats can just eat em up. i usually get 1 or 2 on top of my production/queens so that i can't get camped along with 1 spine where the attack is coming from. alternatively, some zerg players are trying 2 base lair/muta builds to deal with them. if the terran has a 2nd base, he won't have enough money to sit under turrets with the libs, which can be out-micro'd in small numbers (like when this timing hits). admittedly mass muta is irritating to deal with as a mech player because thors sorta suck in low numbers, are expensive, and clunky. widow mines do alright, but any good zerg player carries an overseer. investing too much money in turrets lowers the number of hellions you can produce too, so i truthfully do think that terran needed a bit of assistance in the mobility department.
Very reasonable post, imo.
I guarantee the Liberator will be nerfed. Terran's can't have nice things! You all know that : ) Incoming nerf will be something like, "randomly shoots friendly units and a global warning--and map ping--will fire each time one is built".
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On September 01 2015 04:23 EazyMoney96 wrote:When MULE will be put in the game, economy wont be a problem to rush 2 Liberators and put them into death spaces to deny mining. We saw this from QxC and beatyqt vs protoss, Zerg rushed Spire every game becuase of that. Really i dont see any god damn disadvantage to get 2 liberators in the early game. Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 03:14 Cyro wrote:- can be put at 5 min in the game Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will No i dont play Terran, mainly Zerg and offrace as Protoss. And even tho i see people complain about Adepts, Liberators are 10x times dumber then Adepts.
Oh hai ZerglingShepherd!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 01 2015 04:23 EazyMoney96 wrote:When MULE will be put in the game, economy wont be a problem to rush 2 Liberators and put them into death spaces to deny mining. We saw this from QxC and beatyqt vs protoss, Zerg rushed Spire every game becuase of that. Really i dont see any god damn disadvantage to get 2 liberators in the early game. Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 03:14 Cyro wrote:- can be put at 5 min in the game Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will No i dont play Terran, mainly Zerg and offrace as Protoss. And even tho i see people complain about Adepts, Liberators are 10x times dumber then Adepts.
do us a favor and go play some terran, rush 2 liberators vs a zerg player, and see what happens to you 
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On September 01 2015 05:15 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 04:23 EazyMoney96 wrote:When MULE will be put in the game, economy wont be a problem to rush 2 Liberators and put them into death spaces to deny mining. We saw this from QxC and beatyqt vs protoss, Zerg rushed Spire every game becuase of that. Really i dont see any god damn disadvantage to get 2 liberators in the early game. On September 01 2015 03:14 Cyro wrote:- can be put at 5 min in the game Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will No i dont play Terran, mainly Zerg and offrace as Protoss. And even tho i see people complain about Adepts, Liberators are 10x times dumber then Adepts. Oh hai ZerglingShepherd!
Dat guy never gives up :D
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On September 01 2015 07:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 05:15 Athenau wrote:On September 01 2015 04:23 EazyMoney96 wrote:When MULE will be put in the game, economy wont be a problem to rush 2 Liberators and put them into death spaces to deny mining. We saw this from QxC and beatyqt vs protoss, Zerg rushed Spire every game becuase of that. Really i dont see any god damn disadvantage to get 2 liberators in the early game. On September 01 2015 03:14 Cyro wrote:- can be put at 5 min in the game Fairly sure i've seen one earlier than that in a real master MMR game They can actually have the anti-ground siege at about 3:30. Have you tried attacking up a walled ramp with a liberator sieged ~10 range behind it at ~3:30 - 5:00? Neither have i and i never will No i dont play Terran, mainly Zerg and offrace as Protoss. And even tho i see people complain about Adepts, Liberators are 10x times dumber then Adepts. Oh hai ZerglingShepherd! Dat guy never gives up :D
The ban comment is priceless 
More on topic, I've always wondered why the liberator anti-ground ability grants vision. Making it be able to only shoot what it can see would be a pretty good way of nerfing early mineral line abuse, as well making spotters more important (vision, in general, isn't important enough in this game, IMO).
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SoCal8910 Posts
lmao that ban comment actually is priceless..ive never seen something like that before lol. i see him in popular streamers.
in other news, i got the opportunity to hold a liberator hellbat push into a liberator, hellbat, bio tank attack on my third. it felt SOOOOOO good to hold it and win the game. he was even microing the tanks back and shit i was a little scared i wouldn't hold.
but here's one big thing to note about these crazy liberator pushes
his natural expansion was SOOOOO late. like beyond late if he wanted to stay in the game beyond it. you can't afford to pump liberators hellbats, and get all of your tech out at the same time. so if you have the proper response by having roaches ready to be morphed into ravagers, you'll be ok on 2 base eco + a macro hatch until you can get up to lair, 3 bases, and clear out the libs.
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Shouldn't a tech timing push of Hellbat/Liberator curbstomp a fast 3 Hatch build? There has to be some risk to greed. It is not like Hellbat/Liberator is unscoutable (reactor starport, reactor factory, armory).
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On September 01 2015 09:17 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Shouldn't a tech timing push of Hellbat/Liberator curbstomp a fast 3 Hatch build? There has to be some risk to greed. It is not like Hellbat/Liberator is unscoutable (reactor starport, reactor factory, armory).
Except it works vs non greedy builds to, sometimes even allowing the terran to go 3CC behind this push.
This was the way before macro nerf and automatic macro is coming next patch.
Terran will be IMBA again, even nathanias admited that before the patch witch macro, terran was IMBA
Look at how many Terrans where in redbull tournament finalls !!
Then remember that even tho 1 P and Z qualifed for Washinton 2 days ago beating 4 Terran teams.
THERE are another 2 Terran teams there qualifed for Washinton that won the first qualifer, before the IMBA Liberator.
So 6T and 1Z, 3P with 3 TvT finalls in a row since the Liberator buff.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
More on topic, I've always wondered why the liberator anti-ground ability grants vision
It grants vision? Oh shit
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I don't think liberator needs that anti-air attack, overlaps with the thor and most compositions dont need it.
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On September 01 2015 02:47 BluemoonSC wrote:
originally i was losing to the lib/hellbat push a lot. now i feel much more confident defending it because i've had some experience against it. im truthfully not ready to say that the liberator is hella op at this point in the game. however i do think that it is incredibly easy to use and really puts a lot of pressure on their opponent to respond perfectly or just get annihilated when the libs reach critical mass. i think that's what makes the unit "op" more than anything.
that said, it would nice to see either a rate of fire decrease or a damage decrease at the cost of an HP or armor buff to the unit. id gladly have it take 1 more ravager shot if it didn't murder my stuff in like 2 hits while i try to get in range.
This is how I feel about the unit, there is responses to it, but it really forces you to almost blind prepare for it and react very well or your drone lines + Queens are just toast.
If anything they should rebalance it so it's not so crazy good against ground, but that it CAN support ground in it's siege mode but I feel the primary role for the Liberator should be to better defend mech against Mutalisk play.
Make it require a tech lab
Reduce damage/Reduce radius of ground mode
Buff as necessary but probably not needed
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EPT
