I think Liberator is fairly easy to hold off and it didn't take me too long to get used to dealing with lib/hellbat pushes. Yes, you probably wanna open with a few queens and lingspeed into RW/2gas ravager every game a starport is involved, but that just seems like proper play to me.
Two Liberators setting up a double field where you cannot approach either without losing like 2-3 Ravagers is very annoying and questionable, though. Part of me wants damage split over faster, but less impactful shots so that my brain at least can process where the things are firing so I can transfuse and get money HP on my ravagers and be rewarded for transfuse skills. Like, have them actually escape. Counts for queens taking them down, also. A transfused queen will only take 2 more shots before it's gone. It just happens a tad too fast, but cost for cost idk what's justifiable. It just would be cool if Transfuse was stronger vs Liberators in early game
But in the end, I guess it goes like this: make Ravagers early and get them in position early before Libs set up a double field or pay for it by taking a less than perfect trade. With 3 ravagers, you can 1-shot a liberator setting up, so I guess it's somewhat fair that you can bait them in easy and punish T hard for it.
On September 01 2015 10:19 Liquid`Snute wrote: I think Liberator is fairly easy to hold off and it didn't take me too long to get used to dealing with lib/hellbat pushes. Yes, you probably wanna open with a few queens and lingspeed into RW/2gas ravager every game a starport is involved, but that just seems like proper play to me.
Two Liberators setting up a double field where you cannot approach either without losing like 2-3 Ravagers is very annoying and questionable, though. Part of me wants damage split over faster, but less impactful shots so that my brain at least can process where the things are firing so I can transfuse and get money HP on my ravagers and be rewarded for transfuse skills. Like, have them actually escape. Counts for queens taking them down, also. A transfused queen will only take 2 more shots before it's gone. It just happens a tad too fast, but cost for cost idk what's justifiable. It just would be cool if Transfuse was stronger vs Liberators in early game
But in the end, I guess it goes like this: make Ravagers early and get them in position early before Libs set up a double field or pay for it by taking a less than perfect trade. With 3 ravagers, you can 1-shot a liberator setting up, so I guess it's somewhat fair that you can bait them in easy and punish T hard for it.
I love you and your amazing unbiased insight posts sir, totally agree.
On September 01 2015 10:19 Liquid`Snute wrote: I think Liberator is fairly easy to hold off and it didn't take me too long to get used to dealing with lib/hellbat pushes. Yes, you probably wanna open with a few queens and lingspeed into RW/2gas ravager every game a starport is involved, but that just seems like proper play to me.
Two Liberators setting up a double field where you cannot approach either without losing like 2-3 Ravagers is very annoying and questionable, though. Part of me wants damage split over faster, but less impactful shots so that my brain at least can process where the things are firing so I can transfuse and get money HP on my ravagers and be rewarded for transfuse skills. Like, have them actually escape. Counts for queens taking them down, also. A transfused queen will only take 2 more shots before it's gone. It just happens a tad too fast, but cost for cost idk what's justifiable. It just would be cool if Transfuse was stronger vs Liberators in early game
But in the end, I guess it goes like this: make Ravagers early and get them in position early before Libs set up a double field or pay for it by taking a less than perfect trade. With 3 ravagers, you can 1-shot a liberator setting up, so I guess it's somewhat fair that you can bait them in easy and punish T hard for it.
Liberator is the most broken unit in the game atm.15 range flying tank that come out too early and kill hydra in 1 hit and can only be countred by corupters and mass viper for zerg but most people agree that liberator is too op atm and i am sure it will be nerfed to something like 50 damage and 10 ranage and will need upgrade to make it 13 range so dont worry terran will get their nerf one day and untill than,yea accept the fact that terran will win you. Anyway the current version of the beta is the most unbalanced since they released the beta so just wait for the final game
On September 01 2015 10:19 Liquid`Snute wrote: I think Liberator is fairly easy to hold off and it didn't take me too long to get used to dealing with lib/hellbat pushes. Yes, you probably wanna open with a few queens and lingspeed into RW/2gas ravager every game a starport is involved, but that just seems like proper play to me.
Two Liberators setting up a double field where you cannot approach either without losing like 2-3 Ravagers is very annoying and questionable, though. Part of me wants damage split over faster, but less impactful shots so that my brain at least can process where the things are firing so I can transfuse and get money HP on my ravagers and be rewarded for transfuse skills. Like, have them actually escape. Counts for queens taking them down, also. A transfused queen will only take 2 more shots before it's gone. It just happens a tad too fast, but cost for cost idk what's justifiable. It just would be cool if Transfuse was stronger vs Liberators in early game
But in the end, I guess it goes like this: make Ravagers early and get them in position early before Libs set up a double field or pay for it by taking a less than perfect trade. With 3 ravagers, you can 1-shot a liberator setting up, so I guess it's somewhat fair that you can bait them in easy and punish T hard for it.
Thanks for your insight, I hope Teamliquid will try to discuss with professional player as they did for HoTS patch, I am really curious to know what they (and thus, you too) think about the macro changes, economy model and so on.
yeah, pretty much what snute said. Some of the spots you can put liberators in are very hard to deal with and you are pretty limited in your reaction the moment you see a starport. Otherwise it is not that hard to deal with them.
For me from a design perspective the biggest problem with liberator is that they can stay outside the range of all units including spores and still harass mineral lines as long as there's enough dead space behind the base. That is a huge problem because it will dictate the development of maps in the future. Any unit that single handedly forces maps to be different needs to be changed. Imo even if that meant the area needed to be bigger I think the liberator should just stay in the middle of the circle. It would fit the visual style of the unit, while being a very damaging unit that flies and control space.
As it stands the unit has the clear problem of being able to position in places where it's out of range of any solution except for air,and has everyone knows any unit that forces the opposing player to go a certain route isn't good for the game since it creates repetitive games that no one likes.
On September 01 2015 18:51 Bazik wrote: Just gonna leave this here.
For me from a design perspective the biggest problem with liberator is that they can stay outside the range of all units including spores and still harass mineral lines as long as there's enough dead space behind the base. That is a huge problem because it will dictate the development of maps in the future. Any unit that single handedly forces maps to be different needs to be changed. Imo even if that meant the area needed to be bigger I think the liberator should just stay in the middle of the circle. It would fit the visual style of the unit, while being a very damaging unit that flies and control space.
As it stands the unit has the clear problem of being able to position in places where it's out of range of any solution except for air,and has everyone knows any unit that forces the opposing player to go a certain route isn't good for the game since it creates repetitive games that no one likes.
Bazik
This is the real problem + combined with them being so early in the game.
On September 01 2015 18:51 Bazik wrote: Just gonna leave this here.
For me from a design perspective the biggest problem with liberator is that they can stay outside the range of all units including spores and still harass mineral lines as long as there's enough dead space behind the base. That is a huge problem because it will dictate the development of maps in the future. Any unit that single handedly forces maps to be different needs to be changed. Imo even if that meant the area needed to be bigger I think the liberator should just stay in the middle of the circle. It would fit the visual style of the unit, while being a very damaging unit that flies and control space.
As it stands the unit has the clear problem of being able to position in places where it's out of range of any solution except for air,and has everyone knows any unit that forces the opposing player to go a certain route isn't good for the game since it creates repetitive games that no one likes.
Bazik
if a liberator is in the dead space behind your base and you're not mining for a long time, you're doing something wrong. terran has to make a gigantic investment in order to get reactored liberators AND an armory in an amount of time that makes it difficult for you to mine. on most maps, there is at most one position that makes them impossible to reach with ravagers rspores. if you lose mining for a little in that spot, you need to consider how you're expanding/teching as a zerg player.
when the liberators come out, you can easily have 3 hatcheries and a roach warren as well as the gas to get ravagers if you're playing well, even if they're doing this off of one base. and when they aren't killing things with the liberators, they will eventually get antsy and make mistakes because they NEED to make the investment worth it. 2 or 3 drones is NOT enough damage if they're teching that hard off of one base and you're on 2 with a 3rd hatchery down. you don't even need to plant the spire at this stage, but i would definitely have the lair ready.
the unit itself isn't op, but like snute said (and i said a page back ), the damage or rate of fire needs to be reduced in some form, even if the dps stays the same, because its way easier for the terran to deal damage with this unit than it is to defend. and more than anything i think that's why the unit feels imbalanced even though its actually not too bad and necessary for the terran army.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
I don't think liberators are particularly broken. The early mineral harass will have to be changed asap, but it's only a minor thing. We might call it even a bug really.
The thing that concerns me is how much they counter mutas. Muta/ling/bling vs bio was the best matchup in HotS. It would be sad if liberators countered mutas so hard this would not be possible. I'm not saying it's a problem now, I don't know. But it should be kept in mind. Otherwise we might get only big mutas switches as in HotS PvZ thanks to phoenix hardcounter.
Ovid there is no point in posting those pictures, people will deny this until Liberators will get nerfed.
I played as Protoss and its even more annoying, you have to get phoenix very fast.
On September 01 2015 22:11 Tuczniak wrote: I don't think liberators are particularly broken. The early mineral harass will have to be changed asap, but it's only a minor thing. We might call it even a bug really.
The thing that concerns me is how much they counter mutas. Muta/ling/bling vs bio was the best matchup in HotS. It would be sad if liberators countered mutas so hard this would not be possible. I'm not saying it's a problem now, I don't know. But it should be kept in mind. Otherwise we might get only big mutas switches as in HotS PvZ thanks to phoenix hardcounter.
You can still use muta as long as their less then 6 after that is better to go for darks style, curropter/ling/bane Even more so now since you can use Curropter harass on their PF or production.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
On September 01 2015 18:51 Bazik wrote: Just gonna leave this here.
For me from a design perspective the biggest problem with liberator is that they can stay outside the range of all units including spores and still harass mineral lines as long as there's enough dead space behind the base. That is a huge problem because it will dictate the development of maps in the future. Any unit that single handedly forces maps to be different needs to be changed. Imo even if that meant the area needed to be bigger I think the liberator should just stay in the middle of the circle. It would fit the visual style of the unit, while being a very damaging unit that flies and control space.
As it stands the unit has the clear problem of being able to position in places where it's out of range of any solution except for air,and has everyone knows any unit that forces the opposing player to go a certain route isn't good for the game since it creates repetitive games that no one likes.
Bazik
if a liberator is in the dead space behind your base and you're not mining for a long time, you're doing something wrong. terran has to make a gigantic investment in order to get reactored liberators AND an armory in an amount of time that makes it difficult for you to mine. on most maps, there is at most one position that makes them impossible to reach with ravagers rspores. if you lose mining for a little in that spot, you need to consider how you're expanding/teching as a zerg player.
when the liberators come out, you can easily have 3 hatcheries and a roach warren as well as the gas to get ravagers if you're playing well, even if they're doing this off of one base. and when they aren't killing things with the liberators, they will eventually get antsy and make mistakes because they NEED to make the investment worth it. 2 or 3 drones is NOT enough damage if they're teching that hard off of one base and you're on 2 with a 3rd hatchery down. you don't even need to plant the spire at this stage, but i would definitely have the lair ready.
the unit itself isn't op, but like snute said (and i said a page back ), the damage or rate of fire needs to be reduced in some form, even if the dps stays the same, because its way easier for the terran to deal damage with this unit than it is to defend. and more than anything i think that's why the unit feels imbalanced even though its actually not too bad and necessary for the terran army.
Ok, this may be the case right now, but on the last patch the terran could do a regular rax expand with reactored hellions and 5min liberator(s). In that case it is two base vs two base and you are on hatch tech, so 2mins away from a spire to unlock the hatchery. I.e. in a balance when Terran isn't completely suffocating - which is sadly the state of the current patch - I could see this becoming a problem. I mean eventually the balance will be razor thin like in HotS. I find it peculiar to have a ranged flying unit in the game that can theoretically and practically appear before a race can theoretically and practically have an anti-air unit that can retaliate against it.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
Yes they can reach but they will be in the circle you also only have 2 seconds of time after you scout armory/starport for you to get 3 Ravagers out which is more costly than the method of getting liberators even more so when you don't necessarily want to go down a Roach tech path. What I said isn't about a reactored starport it's about the timing of the armory, scouting 2 gas in the earlygame isn't a tell it could be banshees in which case 3 Ravagers isn't going to do jack squat. The other problem is you need more than 3 ravagers since to get to these spots the ravagers will most likely have to be in the circle and if they focus the ravagers 1 will die before you get in range. People are not using liberators to the full extent possible.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
Yes they can reach but they will be in the circle you also only have 2 seconds of time after you scout armory/starport for you to get 3 Ravagers out which is more costly than the method of getting liberators even more so when you don't necessarily want to go down a Roach tech path. What I said isn't about a reactored starport it's about the timing of the armory, scouting 2 gas in the earlygame isn't a tell it could be banshees in which case 3 Ravagers isn't going to do jack squat. The other problem is you need more than 3 ravagers since to get to these spots the ravagers will most likely have to be in the circle and if they focus the ravagers 1 will die before you get in range. People are not using liberators to the full extent possible.
before i address how to handle the libs, i wanna address what i bolded in your post. it is absolutely not more costly to get 3 ravagers than it is to get liberators and hellbats. we'll see what changes in the next patch, but right now, getting liberators and hellbats costs might be cheaper than what the zerg has to do, but in the current patch in order to tech up to reactor liberators w/ the armory or execute the push, your natural expansion is either not coming or EXTREMELY delayed. so if you want to look at the costs of getting out liberators, you also have to consider the fact that this leaves almost no endgame for the terran player.
ok so ill go back a liiiiiitle further in the thread. while spores aren't super useful, they are important to the defense of your base for a push like this for 2 reasons. 1st is that you're right the ravagers can't be in 2 places at once. so having a spore on the base that doesn't have a ton of dead space behind it is perfect to hold you over and force him to reposition and potentially take dmg from the spore or queens while you take care of the other liberator with the ravagers. 2nd, they're also useful so that liberators can't just roll up to your base and completely paint it and prevent you from getting reinforcements. it
which is great because if they're going cloaked banshee, you have a spore up anyway!
and yes, you do have to have more than 3 ravagers, but i wouldn't make more than 3 roaches to start just in case you misread your opponent's build. the first 3 will hold you over until more can come out. you should definitely have a ling move into the area as well so you don't get murdered while you're setting up. for the most part though, the terran player will attempt to unsiege them in which case you won't take dmg.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
Yes they can reach but they will be in the circle you also only have 2 seconds of time after you scout armory/starport for you to get 3 Ravagers out which is more costly than the method of getting liberators even more so when you don't necessarily want to go down a Roach tech path. What I said isn't about a reactored starport it's about the timing of the armory, scouting 2 gas in the earlygame isn't a tell it could be banshees in which case 3 Ravagers isn't going to do jack squat. The other problem is you need more than 3 ravagers since to get to these spots the ravagers will most likely have to be in the circle and if they focus the ravagers 1 will die before you get in range. People are not using liberators to the full extent possible.
before i address how to handle the libs, i wanna address what i bolded in your post. it is absolutely not more costly to get 3 ravagers than it is to get liberators and hellbats. we'll see what changes in the next patch, but right now, getting liberators and hellbats costs might be cheaper than what the zerg has to do, but in the current patch in order to tech up to reactor liberators w/ the armory or execute the push, your natural expansion is either not coming or EXTREMELY delayed. so if you want to look at the costs of getting out liberators, you also have to consider the fact that this leaves almost no endgame for the terran player.
ok so ill go back a liiiiiitle further in the thread. while spores aren't super useful, they are important to the defense of your base for a push like this for 2 reasons. 1st is that you're right the ravagers can't be in 2 places at once. so having a spore on the base that doesn't have a ton of dead space behind it is perfect to hold you over and force him to reposition and potentially take dmg from the spore or queens while you take care of the other liberator with the ravagers. 2nd, they're also useful so that liberators can't just roll up to your base and completely paint it and prevent you from getting reinforcements. it
which is great because if they're going cloaked banshee, you have a spore up anyway!
and yes, you do have to have more than 3 ravagers, but i wouldn't make more than 3 roaches to start just in case you misread your opponent's build. the first 3 will hold you over until more can come out. you should definitely have a ling move into the area as well so you don't get murdered while you're setting up. for the most part though, the terran player will attempt to unsiege them in which case you won't take dmg.
Why are you saying about Reactored Liberators? They do not require a reactor nor do you want a reactor for the push I am talking about. A cloaked banshee vs the investment to go for ravagers is advantageous to the Terran, the zerg has delayed all their tech/invested into a path they probably do not want to go for where the terran has a smooth transition since he's not invested into any buildings/tech that aren't possible to use in either Mech or bio.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
Yes they can reach but they will be in the circle you also only have 2 seconds of time after you scout armory/starport for you to get 3 Ravagers out which is more costly than the method of getting liberators even more so when you don't necessarily want to go down a Roach tech path. What I said isn't about a reactored starport it's about the timing of the armory, scouting 2 gas in the earlygame isn't a tell it could be banshees in which case 3 Ravagers isn't going to do jack squat. The other problem is you need more than 3 ravagers since to get to these spots the ravagers will most likely have to be in the circle and if they focus the ravagers 1 will die before you get in range. People are not using liberators to the full extent possible.
before i address how to handle the libs, i wanna address what i bolded in your post. it is absolutely not more costly to get 3 ravagers than it is to get liberators and hellbats. we'll see what changes in the next patch, but right now, getting liberators and hellbats costs might be cheaper than what the zerg has to do, but in the current patch in order to tech up to reactor liberators w/ the armory or execute the push, your natural expansion is either not coming or EXTREMELY delayed. so if you want to look at the costs of getting out liberators, you also have to consider the fact that this leaves almost no endgame for the terran player.
ok so ill go back a liiiiiitle further in the thread. while spores aren't super useful, they are important to the defense of your base for a push like this for 2 reasons. 1st is that you're right the ravagers can't be in 2 places at once. so having a spore on the base that doesn't have a ton of dead space behind it is perfect to hold you over and force him to reposition and potentially take dmg from the spore or queens while you take care of the other liberator with the ravagers. 2nd, they're also useful so that liberators can't just roll up to your base and completely paint it and prevent you from getting reinforcements. it
which is great because if they're going cloaked banshee, you have a spore up anyway!
and yes, you do have to have more than 3 ravagers, but i wouldn't make more than 3 roaches to start just in case you misread your opponent's build. the first 3 will hold you over until more can come out. you should definitely have a ling move into the area as well so you don't get murdered while you're setting up. for the most part though, the terran player will attempt to unsiege them in which case you won't take dmg.
Why are you saying about Reactored Liberators? They do not require a reactor nor do you want a reactor for the push I am talking about. A cloaked banshee vs the investment to go for ravagers is advantageous to the Terran, the zerg has delayed all their tech/invested into a path they probably do not want to go for where the terran has a smooth transition since he's not invested into any buildings/tech that aren't possible to use in either Mech or bio.
if you're not facing a reactor push, you shouldn't have too much trouble holding since there aren't nearly as many liberators killing your stuff. this is the easier hold. as for the cloaked banshee, he's still putting a ton of resources into it and delaying his expansion.
dropping the roach warren is 150 minerals, 200 if you count the drone. not dropping the roach warren is potentially minus ladder points. in addition, ravagers are great at pushing terran players if you're interested in not playing a macro style.
but i truthfully think you're underestimating now much liberator tech puts the terran behind a zerg player.
This is a list of spots that the liberator can stop mining to some capacity without a spore or a queen being able to attack them, the images use a turret to display the 7 range the black line is where the turret reaches to all of the images show untouchable places from 7 range GTA attacks (Queen and Spores) bear in mind stalkers have 6 range so I'm sure these spots are also effective there.
Terraform Main base isn't affected, nor is the natural below is a image of the central more exposed third Here is the other potential third Here is the range from the natural
Bridgehead You can only attack the third mineral line without being affected placing the ATG when there's a double layer is very imprecise since it jumps forward which is why I place the liberator to the side
Orbital Shipyard This is in that pocket natural
Dash and Terminal This is the natural The third behind your natural The forward third, it's not the one that's directly left from the natural the one that is infront of that one. Excuse the lack of the black line I couldn't see the missile turret range on the image but I tested it before I took the photo ingame by building a turret there and seeing if it could attack the liberator
Ruins of Seras This is your natural This is the further away third not the one tucked just forward from the natural/mainbase.
Moonlight Madness This map truly is madness liberators are insanely broken on this map, here's your pocket natural/third The other natural that most people take first The potential third that is in a perfect line with your main and the above natural
Lerilak Crest The only map with 0 mineral line harass points this is mainly due to the large amount of space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger
Conclusion The only way to effectively deal with the early liberators requires you to specifically counter them and even then it's impossible to hard counter the build since getting a spire out at a fast enough time puts you behind in economy as already discussed in this thread, this leaves you with a Ravager opener, unmorphing a liberator takes 1 second and the bile take 2.5 seconds to land meaning someone who is on top of their control can avoid any damage and re-position in a fast enough time to take more shots. It requires 3 corrosive bile to destroy a liberator. It takes roughly 1min and 8 seconds for you to prepare ravagers, and taking my timings from the QXC archon game the first liberator can arrive at 4:50, which means you need to be making a roach warren at 3:42 at the latest, the first time you can confirm the build with 100% certainty is at 3:40 when the armory is placed and when you see no techlab on the starport. Because if you assume it's a liberator off two gas and go for ravagers a hellbat banshee push will probably end up doing crippling damage. The timing window to react is so small that you have to be preparing before this build arrives. Sure you can stop this push, but you will be behind in economy in any method that is effective. A ravager build still isn't effective because for a lot of these spots for them to be in range of the liberator. So the only two builds that have the range for you to counter these spots are ineffective because they put you behind in economy. These spots aren't even essential since you can also siege up in open area for effective damage.
The best conclusion is to remove the liberator for a Valkyrie equivalent and to buff the siege tank for better zone control. Otherwise the fix will be to make everymap having a much larger space behind the mineral lines which makes drop play stronger and constrains the map makers further.
Read the bit about the scouting timings for a 1 base liberator build and the response time for the zerg.
corrosive bile has 9 range, so in most (if not all) of these pictures, ravagers can reach them. its not completely unreasonable to open up with speedlings, get your roach warren, and build 3 roaches until you can confirm that liberators are incoming. ravagers take less than 10 seconds to morph. if they're doing this build, they will be getting double gas, which is a pretty big tell that you're either getting lib'd or medivac tank dropped. if they swap the factory onto a reactor and produce hellions, you'll know you're getting lib'd.
you don't have to directly scout the reactored starport to know whats coming your way if you don't see an expansion
Yes they can reach but they will be in the circle you also only have 2 seconds of time after you scout armory/starport for you to get 3 Ravagers out which is more costly than the method of getting liberators even more so when you don't necessarily want to go down a Roach tech path. What I said isn't about a reactored starport it's about the timing of the armory, scouting 2 gas in the earlygame isn't a tell it could be banshees in which case 3 Ravagers isn't going to do jack squat. The other problem is you need more than 3 ravagers since to get to these spots the ravagers will most likely have to be in the circle and if they focus the ravagers 1 will die before you get in range. People are not using liberators to the full extent possible.
before i address how to handle the libs, i wanna address what i bolded in your post. it is absolutely not more costly to get 3 ravagers than it is to get liberators and hellbats. we'll see what changes in the next patch, but right now, getting liberators and hellbats costs might be cheaper than what the zerg has to do, but in the current patch in order to tech up to reactor liberators w/ the armory or execute the push, your natural expansion is either not coming or EXTREMELY delayed. so if you want to look at the costs of getting out liberators, you also have to consider the fact that this leaves almost no endgame for the terran player.
ok so ill go back a liiiiiitle further in the thread. while spores aren't super useful, they are important to the defense of your base for a push like this for 2 reasons. 1st is that you're right the ravagers can't be in 2 places at once. so having a spore on the base that doesn't have a ton of dead space behind it is perfect to hold you over and force him to reposition and potentially take dmg from the spore or queens while you take care of the other liberator with the ravagers. 2nd, they're also useful so that liberators can't just roll up to your base and completely paint it and prevent you from getting reinforcements. it
which is great because if they're going cloaked banshee, you have a spore up anyway!
and yes, you do have to have more than 3 ravagers, but i wouldn't make more than 3 roaches to start just in case you misread your opponent's build. the first 3 will hold you over until more can come out. you should definitely have a ling move into the area as well so you don't get murdered while you're setting up. for the most part though, the terran player will attempt to unsiege them in which case you won't take dmg.
Why are you saying about Reactored Liberators? They do not require a reactor nor do you want a reactor for the push I am talking about. A cloaked banshee vs the investment to go for ravagers is advantageous to the Terran, the zerg has delayed all their tech/invested into a path they probably do not want to go for where the terran has a smooth transition since he's not invested into any buildings/tech that aren't possible to use in either Mech or bio.
if you're not facing a reactor push, you shouldn't have too much trouble holding since there aren't nearly as many liberators killing your stuff. this is the easier hold. as for the cloaked banshee, he's still putting a ton of resources into it and delaying his expansion.
dropping the roach warren is 150 minerals, 200 if you count the drone. not dropping the roach warren is potentially minus ladder points. in addition, ravagers are great at pushing terran players if you're interested in not playing a macro style.
but i truthfully think you're underestimating now much liberator tech puts the terran behind a zerg player.
I truthfully think you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Here's some videos watch the SCV count vs the Drone count at the time the Liberator is being produced, this is a more economic Liberator build than the one base I was listing but the zerg is behind in drones or barely ahead depending on their build, when they opened ravagers they were behind and it was 2 base vs 2 base.
EPT
), the damage or rate of fire needs to be reduced in some form, even if the dps stays the same, because its way easier for the terran to deal damage with this unit than it is to defend. and more than anything i think that's why the unit feels imbalanced even though its actually not too bad and necessary for the terran army.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iw9Zi0X.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GcSDFZM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mP35sHd.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WAUA3rU.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R2hgmE5.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aKJjYkM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0I5qZ62.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ciTFTRY.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rv6WOch.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A2Hw3Tt.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kd5YzU4.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/osXCdBT.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L4VgrwG.png)
