EPTtools to counter, i agree - but it's quite a small investment to have to cause that countering in the first place. They can just add 4-6 liberators to any army and it makes a bio or mech siege way stronger, disproportionately so for the build time and cost. I don't think people are having trouble with 30 liberators but that they're very powerful in small numbers
Liberator in TVZ : is it imba? - Page 19
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
tools to counter, i agree - but it's quite a small investment to have to cause that countering in the first place. They can just add 4-6 liberators to any army and it makes a bio or mech siege way stronger, disproportionately so for the build time and cost. I don't think people are having trouble with 30 liberators but that they're very powerful in small numbers | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On September 04 2015 05:13 Cyro wrote: liberators actually get better vs phoenix in greater numbers as they splash anti air - and super-duper warp prism shouldn't be in the game. tools to counter, i agree - but it's quite a small investment to have to cause that countering in the first place. They can just add 4-6 liberators to any army and it makes a bio or mech siege way stronger, disproportionately so for the build time and cost. I don't think people are having trouble with 30 liberators but that they're very powerful in small numbers unless i'm mistaken, won't right clicking and moving (instead of a-moving) the phoenixes cause them to not stack? how do void rays do later in the game when you'll likely have a healthy zealot number to ensure that marines are dealing with them and not the rays? i know tempests are good at dealing with them if they are already set up since they have the same range (if we're talking late game) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
unless i'm mistaken, won't right clicking and moving (instead of a-moving) the phoenixes cause them to not stack? how do void rays do later in the game when you'll likely have a healthy zealot number to ensure that marines are dealing with them and not the rays? The splash is fairly big and there's usually anti air with them (thors, mines, marines) liberator is not really the problem, it's how much a medium number of them augment the already standing armies. If there's a wall of liberator anti ground AOE and then behind that there's a mech/bio army and then further behind that are the actual liberators, it adds a huge amount of power in every matchup i don't even neccesarily mean to argue that they're too strong in their current state, they just feel very accessible and powerful - it's not even enough to say that they're seen often right now, because there's not much of a meta combined with pretty wild MMR swings on ladder (you hit huk one game and some drunk low master guys the next). On top of that, balance is really wonky in the first place - terran is overall weak at the moment, so out of my ~55 games in GM archon in the current patch i can't recall more than a few balanced games with liberators in the midgame. If they were too strong, i'd bet that it's in their ease of access, versatility and the amount of power that they bring to any army when you have just 4-6 of them | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On September 04 2015 07:55 BluemoonSC wrote: ok well i think we can close this thread now that ravagers can corrosive bile from 13 range :D Yep, then we can create a thread about how this single change has removed mech from the matchup. I want to try out the new range ravagers along with blinding cloud. He sieges his tanks, I drop blinding cloud on them and move my ravagers into range and destroy every single tank. Tables turned. Similiar for Liberators. Will probably force Terran into bio only. In some ways it is like a MOBA. In a MOBA I try to find the broken hero/ability and abuse that. In SC2 we should drop our attachment to a particular race and seek to have fun with the imbalances that exist. Does anyone know if they have 13 vision, or lower vision like a siege tank and need a spotter? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Couldn't find the notes but it's on TL now | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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Athenau
570 Posts
And that's the one thing that shouldn't be nerfed. More deathballs ramming into each other are the last thing this game needs. Anything that promotes more careful positioning and unit movement, spreading your army, slowing the pace of big fights down, and just generally pushing the tempo towards the BW-end of things is to be desired. So if they come out too early or build too fast, address that, but don't kill what makes them interesting. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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Athenau
570 Posts
I've read this entire thread, btw. So if you have a point, spell it out instead of beating about the bush. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
But your complaint wasn't about production speed or mobility Sure it was. A huge part of the strength of the liberator comes from how easy they are to access and produce a decent number of them as well as how they're fast and have both AA and AG attacks. Strength in a niche is fine, strength in 5 niches at the same time is dangeorus if it turns out that way | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On September 04 2015 19:37 Athenau wrote: Siege units are meant to be disproportionately strong when sieged. Run your units into to 4-6 BW tanks supported by an army and see if they feel like 150/100/2 units. Liberators cost 150/150 As for the unit itself I think its fine, there quite the counter play out there, I think a good change would be to up the supply to 3, make them build a little bit slower like 10 sec or so and maybe make it a little more expensive (like 175/150 or 200/150 or something) They would still be strong but they would be more of an investment, losing them would be more costly and it would be harder to mass them, while still mantaining the strenght and rewarding players that are agressive with them. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Question is do they nerf it or just let people figure out handling it. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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ganil
253 Posts
It can be reactored, but please stop with the fast build time nonsense. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Thors and banshees require a tech lab, therefore they take literally twice as long or twice as many buildings to make - And thor build time is disproportionately fast if that's the case. I think everyone will agree that 8 liberators is a whole lot more scary than 4 banshees, yet they're produced by the same building in the same amount of time | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
You can build four liberators in the time it takes to build 1 carrier. You're being retarded. Lotv carrier build time is 63s and it can be chronoobosted. Of course, if you imply terran has 2 reactored starport for each stargate, then you're right. User was warned for this post | ||
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