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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
It's better to compare to Banshee. Liberator has the same build time and more power/versatility yet it can be reactored. No point going cross-race for examples if they have one on the same building! Nobody is building Banshees, it's always liberator rush, liberator harass etc. I have not even seen a Banshee or a Colossus in 80 games, yet i've seen hundreds of Liberators. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
If I were as biased as you, I'd tell you that the liberator build time is way too slow because it's about the same as a chronoboosted carrier... and carriers are obv a lot more scary. Ofc I'm not mentionning the fact that it requires a lot more tech and it's way more expensive. The build time is fine. They could unlock the ag mode by an upgrade in the techlab as a replacement for the armory so you can't mass them as fast in the early game for their anti ground, but that's all imo. Their aa is mediocre at best. It's good as a support unit but that's all. Banshees are still used a lot for TvT btw. But they kinda suck vs protoss so you're not going to see them anytime soon ! | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
what makes people feel like they're OP is that you can use them in any composition and at such a long range. this makes it easy to use with a 200/200 army BUT more difficult to defend. that's where i think it's OP, not while you're reactoring them out off of 1 base while securing your expansion. i'll just roach you :D | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
A liberator vs carrier are completely different classes of units - one of them is a 2 supply unit accessible in the early/midgame and easily mass produced, while the other is the most expensive 6-supply unit in the game. If I were as biased as you You're being retarded. --- Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy. And i don't hate the unit, i think it's just "slightly too good" in quite a few areas at the same time, potentially even by design for the beta. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
Anyway, all of this is pretty pointless currently since you can go 2 gates adept pylon rush in any mu and wreck everything till people find a way to handle this shit. This is a funny build actually. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
but i actually didn't realize carrier build time was reduced also | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
the only thing you can do is attack and hope he doesn't keep 1 liberator at home for defense (you have 2 by 4.30 harassing mineral line) even if you go for the fastest possible ravager upgrade off of gas before pool, you're still gonna be losing ravagers on certain maps while attempting to get shots off (say hello to 15 range liberators). If you try to skip roaches and speed, then he still has hellions behind it and any smart terran will runby and kill your drones I'd go as far as to say that this is far more gamebreaking than hellbat drops in early hots ever were, to the point where I am probably going to quit every time I see this build because I already know the outcome. The fact that blind countering and knowing the build doesn't give you any better chances makes it completely imbalanced so early on. Not to mention that on certain positions liberators can hit eggs so you cannot even bring production out to deal with it (happens if you try going fastest mutas off 2 base). I've already stated it before, liberators are either gonna need a decently long upgrade timing on ATG mode or at least have them require a fusion core | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 06 2015 06:05 EonuS wrote: there's a gamebreaking build in ZvT that you cannot cost efficiently counter, a gas before rax build where even if you cut all possible corners such as ling scout, go for fastest possible lair even before speedling upgrade, you're still gonna lose mining time and with that the game because of the current terran econ boost the only thing you can do is attack and hope he doesn't keep 1 liberator at home for defense (you have 2 by 4.30 harassing mineral line) even if you go for the fastest possible ravager upgrade off of gas before pool, you're still gonna be losing ravagers on certain maps while attempting to get shots off (say hello to 15 range liberators). If you try to skip roaches and speed, then he still has hellions behind it and any smart terran will runby and kill your drones I'd go as far as to say that this is far more gamebreaking than hellbat drops in early hots ever were, to the point where I am probably going to quit every time I see this build because I already know the outcome. The fact that blind countering and knowing the build doesn't give you any better chances makes it completely imbalanced so early on. Not to mention that on certain positions liberators can hit eggs so you cannot even bring production out to deal with it (happens if you try going fastest mutas off 2 base). I've already stated it before, liberators are either gonna need a decently long upgrade timing on ATG mode or at least have them require a fusion core Fusion core strikes me as unnecessary, I feel a better nerf would be raw numbers at this point, something like slightly reducing the atg radius would probably go a long way to countering it, or maybe reduce the range on it slightly? Not too sure, something as simple as requiring a damn tech lab would do the trick, but honestly the unit isn't too too OP, Ravagers deal with it handily and Roach/Hydra/Viper is a whole new composition with Lurkers added in. | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 06 2015 06:19 jpg06051992 wrote: Fusion core strikes me as unnecessary, I feel a better nerf would be raw numbers at this point, something like slightly reducing the atg radius would probably go a long way to countering it, or maybe reduce the range on it slightly? Not too sure, something as simple as requiring a damn tech lab would do the trick, but honestly the unit isn't too too OP, Ravagers deal with it handily and Roach/Hydra/Viper is a whole new composition with Lurkers added in. I think you don't yet grasp how early in the game this can hit your minreal line. None of the suggestions above will affect the rush, you're still going to have to pull drones away from your mineral line while terran is happily building his economy up (it's far more apparent how broken this rush is with the re-addition of mules) I don't have problems with liberator past the early game, but the fact that unit this strong can hit mineral line so early that I can't even deal with when I cut all the corners is what really bothers me | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 06 2015 06:41 EonuS wrote: I think you don't yet grasp how early in the game this can hit your minreal line. None of the suggestions above will affect the rush, you're still going to have to pull drones away from your mineral line while terran is happily building his economy up (it's far more apparent how broken this rush is with the re-addition of mules) I don't have problems with liberator past the early game, but the fact that unit this strong can hit mineral line so early that I can't even deal with when I cut all the corners is what really bothers me Oh I do know lol they hit very early, I was actually more along your train of thought until I watched a very recent Lowko ZvT where he deals with the early Liberator/Hellbat play VERY effectively. Lowko might not be a pro player, but he's a relatively high level player, so if it works at his level, it works for ours, I definitely have better play against them. | ||
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Kyrth
United States101 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On September 06 2015 06:05 EonuS wrote: there's a gamebreaking build in ZvT that you cannot cost efficiently counter, a gas before rax build where even if you cut all possible corners such as ling scout, go for fastest possible lair even before speedling upgrade, you're still gonna lose mining time and with that the game because of the current terran econ boost the only thing you can do is attack and hope he doesn't keep 1 liberator at home for defense (you have 2 by 4.30 harassing mineral line) even if you go for the fastest possible ravager upgrade off of gas before pool, you're still gonna be losing ravagers on certain maps while attempting to get shots off (say hello to 15 range liberators). If you try to skip roaches and speed, then he still has hellions behind it and any smart terran will runby and kill your drones I'd go as far as to say that this is far more gamebreaking than hellbat drops in early hots ever were, to the point where I am probably going to quit every time I see this build because I already know the outcome. The fact that blind countering and knowing the build doesn't give you any better chances makes it completely imbalanced so early on. Not to mention that on certain positions liberators can hit eggs so you cannot even bring production out to deal with it (happens if you try going fastest mutas off 2 base). I've already stated it before, liberators are either gonna need a decently long upgrade timing on ATG mode or at least have them require a fusion core Yeah I know this build and you don't deal wth it by doing fast muta. On certain maps it sucks, but it's by no means game breaking. Whats your build? What supply are you getting your 2nd gas and roach warren? | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
As a terran player, I just think a liberator is a bit too, idk, easy? I just hit E and its like an air siege tank for the terran that moves really really quickly and can harass quite easily. It just takes away the most fun aspect of tvz in Heart of the Swarm which was the micro, the marines and widow mines against the banelings and mutalisks. Maybe its just the level of players I'm playing against but still the liberator needs to be worked a bit. I think decreasing its speed might be important and also think that its attack radius should be decreased so that the zerg can split and still effectively fight the terran army. As for the early game harass potential, zerg pretty much has to go spore crawlers. I think making it a tech lab unit might be interesting, but then I think terrans will just shift to bio tank instead of bio liberator. And go for early game tank drops. I'm still kinda opposed to the lift siege tanks straight into medivacs change. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 06 2015 06:49 jpg06051992 wrote: Oh I do know lol they hit very early, I was actually more along your train of thought until I watched a very recent Lowko ZvT where he deals with the early Liberator/Hellbat play VERY effectively. Lowko might not be a pro player, but he's a relatively high level player, so if it works at his level, it works for ours, I definitely have better play against them. I am a mid/high gm player in lotv currently and there are individuals who have done this build day in day out so they don't screw up their micro on them. I've practically tried everything, including trying to grab an extremely fast upgrade for ravagers (good luck trying with 9 range, you can just leave the game). Even if you defend the build efficiently, you are still behind on economy because you just cut a lot of minerals to get the gas needed for ravagers that early on while terran has compensation with both mules and supply drops. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
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WidowMineHero
New Zealand143 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On September 06 2015 14:19 EonuS wrote: I am a mid/high gm player in lotv currently and there are individuals who have done this build day in day out so they don't screw up their micro on them. I've practically tried everything, including trying to grab an extremely fast upgrade for ravagers (good luck trying with 9 range, you can just leave the game). Even if you defend the build efficiently, you are still behind on economy because you just cut a lot of minerals to get the gas needed for ravagers that early on while terran has compensation with both mules and supply drops. Is there a replay you can post so I can see it in action? I haven't had a terrible time defending against these pushes and sometimes when I play against a terran I almost hope they do it to me lol | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On September 06 2015 22:15 BluemoonSC wrote: Is there a replay you can post so I can see it in action? I haven't had a terrible time defending against these pushes and sometimes when I play against a terran I almost hope they do it to me lol Dont do that man, saying "Iam Uberskilled" isnt as cool as you might think. All this liberator wont stay anyway | ||
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