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On May 22 2015 09:54 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades I said the same a page ago. Mech only needs 2 upgrades going (+ each unit upgrade) to run at max. In order to deal with Mech, other races have to play intensively, commonly with air units, involving at least 3 upgrades(ground armor, ground attack (meele or ranged) and air attack), to perform quite decently. Commonly 4 upgrades or the full 5 kit. Meanwhile, mech needs only 2.
I completely agree with you, just reiterating the point. I even said a few pages ago I'm hoping they bring that change to HotS too 
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these changes seem so...boring
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On May 22 2015 09:15 Magnet wrote:
LOL wut. These poll results are great.
Every item except one: Approve.
Overall feeling on these changes: Disapprove.
Idk why this is so hard to understand.
Some changes are moving in the right direction = approve of each individual change.
Even though these changes decent, they aren't the ones the community requests = disapprove of the general direction of changes.
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On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades
Because the viper isn't enough even if it can blinding cloud the ground and parasitic bomb the air? or 8 armor ultra? or lurker? or ravagers?
Making air counter mech is the WORST thing, its just another get this an win hard counter. I don't really like to comment on racial bias, but this comment sounds like zerg simply don't want mech to be played at all.
If factory units were as autonomous as barracks units it would be ok, but they aren't and thats the problem.
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I got BETA for three weeks and almost never play. I wanna see big changes Blizzard. WTF are you doing? I will continue playing HotS if there aren´t more significant changes...
Keep doing shit like this Blizzard and no one will play SC2. Four years ago I never ever faced one enemy/player in ladder twice. Nowadays in Diamond I play many players two-three times in a week...
WAKE UP BLIZZARD, PLEASE, DO IT FOR US!
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On May 22 2015 10:16 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades Because the viper isn't enough even if it can blinding cloud the ground and parasitic bomb the air? or 8 armor ultra? or lurker? or ravagers? Making air counter mech is the WORST thing, its just another get this an win hard counter. I don't really like to comment on racial bias, but this comment sounds like zerg simply don't want mech to be played at all. If factory units were as autonomous as barracks units it would be ok, but they aren't and thats the problem.
Its not about making anything counter anything else. Its about making something viable. The current game forces a zerg to go roach hydra viper vs mech. This is terrible from both a spectator and player standpoint. What part of 2/3 of terran's supposedly separate (whether they truly are separate Blizzard clearly believes/intends them to be) arsenals sounds balanced in any way?
On May 22 2015 10:25 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:and there it is...  My heart sunk reading this. It's like, even if the SH works out to be useful and balanced it still seems boring as all fuck with the direction they're going in. It's like a low-risk alternative to ovie drops (something that is actually exciting).
Wasn't there a time where they were trying to make overlord drops better or am I going crazy? I'd love to see that be viable
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The new Swarm Host is looking good so far
and there it is...
My heart sunk reading this. It's like, even if the SH works out to be useful and balanced it still seems boring as all fuck with the direction they're going in. It's like a low-risk alternative to ovie drops (something that is actually exciting).
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
Liberator seems boring and terrible to me. Add a unit the helps siege tanks stay in siege mode.
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On May 22 2015 10:25 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:and there it is... My heart sunk reading this. It's like, even if the SH works out to be useful and balanced it still seems boring as all fuck with the direction they're going in. It's like a low-risk alternative to ovie drops (something that is actually exciting).
Certainly it is, for years i heard and can´t count the times that zerg players was begging to blizzard to make overlords drops viable, XD.
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I feel like the biggest problem with these updates is that a lot of them are balance updates (as the title implies, obviously), when they really should be design updates; they should finagle with the roles of units directly and more often at this stage of development, and leave the fine-tuning of balancing later down the road, if the beta is really going to be as long as they imply. Change up some old units, give some TLC to neglected units, take the opportunity to fine-tune staple units, etc. They took a big first step with the economy change and the rush of changes in the beta debut, but they seemed to have shrunk back significantly since.
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On May 22 2015 02:48 The_Templar wrote:
None of these changes besides the liberator really... do anything. So why is the beta supposed to be so long?
cuz you gotta build da hype instead of using the beta do actually do meaningful tests, you know
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all great changes, good to see steps moving in the right direction
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On May 22 2015 10:23 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 10:16 Lexender wrote:On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades Because the viper isn't enough even if it can blinding cloud the ground and parasitic bomb the air? or 8 armor ultra? or lurker? or ravagers? Making air counter mech is the WORST thing, its just another get this an win hard counter. I don't really like to comment on racial bias, but this comment sounds like zerg simply don't want mech to be played at all. If factory units were as autonomous as barracks units it would be ok, but they aren't and thats the problem. Its not about making anything counter anything else. Its about making something viable. The current game forces a zerg to go roach hydra viper vs mech. This is terrible from both a spectator and player standpoint. What part of 2/3 of terran's supposedly separate (whether they truly are separate Blizzard clearly believes/intends them to be) arsenals sounds balanced in any way?
This is not HotS, if ground attacking corruptors, buffed adrenal glands zerglings, immune nydus, lurkers, buffed broodlords, 8 armor ultras and ravagers aren't enough then I don't know what it is. Yes terran got buffs for mech too, but zerg is not pidgeon holed into roach hydra viper like in HotS (also in both mutas are still really strong).
Also making mech weak to anything air IS hardcounter.
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Starting to get the impression that trophies are given to all participants at this company.
Love the changes guys, time for pizza hut!
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On May 22 2015 11:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 10:23 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 10:16 Lexender wrote:On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades Because the viper isn't enough even if it can blinding cloud the ground and parasitic bomb the air? or 8 armor ultra? or lurker? or ravagers? Making air counter mech is the WORST thing, its just another get this an win hard counter. I don't really like to comment on racial bias, but this comment sounds like zerg simply don't want mech to be played at all. If factory units were as autonomous as barracks units it would be ok, but they aren't and thats the problem. Its not about making anything counter anything else. Its about making something viable. The current game forces a zerg to go roach hydra viper vs mech. This is terrible from both a spectator and player standpoint. What part of 2/3 of terran's supposedly separate (whether they truly are separate Blizzard clearly believes/intends them to be) arsenals sounds balanced in any way? This is not HotS, if ground attacking corruptors, buffed adrenal glands zerglings, immune nydus, lurkers, buffed broodlords, 8 armor ultras and ravagers aren't enough then I don't know what it is. Yes terran got buffs for mech too, but zerg is not pidgeon holed into roach hydra viper like in HotS (also in both mutas are still really strong). Also making mech weak to anything air IS hardcounter.
It has nothing to do with making mech weak to anything. Its about making using air possible. There is a huge difference between something being a hardcounter and something being viable and balancing mech. You ignored the fact that 2/3 of terran's unit compositions currently have one upgrade, which is an unfair advantage to them.
I think its important to note the difference between Protoss ground and Terran ground because hopefully this can explain it in another way. Robotics units cannot function on their own, they need to be integrated into gateway unit compositions to be of any real use. Air however, can fully function on its own. This is why Robo and gate units sharing upgrades (ground attack/ground defense) actually makes sense and isn't imbalanced. Blizzard is suggesting, again whether this is true or not will be determined by how the Liberator functions, that barracks, factory, and starport compositions will each be viable separate from one another. Because of this its an unfair advantage to terran to have 2/3 of their unique paths share upgrades, as it allows for more seamless and harder to counter transitions.
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How does the Overall Direction poll have a majority Disagree when all but one of the other polls have a majority Agree?
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On May 22 2015 10:57 Spect8rCraft wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem with these updates is that a lot of them are balance updates (as the title implies, obviously), when they really should be design updates; they should finagle with the roles of units directly and more often at this stage of development, and leave the fine-tuning of balancing later down the road, if the beta is really going to be as long as they imply. Change up some old units, give some TLC to neglected units, take the opportunity to fine-tune staple units, etc. They took a big first step with the economy change and the rush of changes in the beta debut, but they seemed to have shrunk back significantly since.
This this and this
Why are they adjusting balance? This is the beginning phase of the beta so I'm massively curious why they aren't taking the biggest design changes NOW since there really is no better time to do it
Major design changes like Warp Gate/Gateway unit overhaul are going to require testing and fine tuning thats going to take time, not to mention that Cyclones are still a disgusting unit to watch/play against they literally involve zero meaningful micro interactions, Adepts are still way too good in the early game and fall off hard in the mid to late game, Gateway is still useless to build.
Ugh, I was so excited to have the Beta and I barely even touch it because there is almost nothing going on.
Also Terrans have zero problem with air play so I'm not even sure what the point of this new unit is other then to give Terran another new unit in the expansion, Terran needs better tanks, a Raven redesign (auto turret probably the least elegant caster ability in the game) and Ghost buffs/redesign, not air splash, there is a million ways the Viking could have been made better or the Thor redesigned to provide that, why does the best designed race in the game need another unit just for the sake of having another new unit?
Once again these changes are good and probably for the better but these are just small, timid little baby steps that I would expect after the game is released, not the major design changes that we were promised.
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On May 22 2015 11:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 11:27 Lexender wrote:On May 22 2015 10:23 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 10:16 Lexender wrote:On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote:
It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place:
(1) For balance purposes.
(2) In order to promote interesting strategic options
So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s.
Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response.
Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades Because the viper isn't enough even if it can blinding cloud the ground and parasitic bomb the air? or 8 armor ultra? or lurker? or ravagers? Making air counter mech is the WORST thing, its just another get this an win hard counter. I don't really like to comment on racial bias, but this comment sounds like zerg simply don't want mech to be played at all. If factory units were as autonomous as barracks units it would be ok, but they aren't and thats the problem. Its not about making anything counter anything else. Its about making something viable. The current game forces a zerg to go roach hydra viper vs mech. This is terrible from both a spectator and player standpoint. What part of 2/3 of terran's supposedly separate (whether they truly are separate Blizzard clearly believes/intends them to be) arsenals sounds balanced in any way? This is not HotS, if ground attacking corruptors, buffed adrenal glands zerglings, immune nydus, lurkers, buffed broodlords, 8 armor ultras and ravagers aren't enough then I don't know what it is. Yes terran got buffs for mech too, but zerg is not pidgeon holed into roach hydra viper like in HotS (also in both mutas are still really strong). Also making mech weak to anything air IS hardcounter. It has nothing to do with making mech weak to anything. Its about making using air possible. There is a huge difference between something being a hardcounter and something being viable and balancing mech. You ignored the fact that 2/3 of terran's unit compositions currently have one upgrade, which is an unfair advantage to them. I think its important to note the difference between Protoss ground and Terran ground because hopefully this can explain it in another way. Robotics units cannot function on their own, they need to be integrated into gateway unit compositions to be of any real use. Air however, can fully function on its own. This is why Robo and gate units sharing upgrades (ground attack/ground defense) actually makes sense and isn't imbalanced. Blizzard is suggesting, again whether this is true or not will be determined by how the Liberator functions, that barracks, factory, and starport compositions will each be viable separate from one another. Because of this its an unfair advantage to terran to have 2/3 of their unique paths share upgrades, as it allows for more seamless and harder to counter transitions.
Thats the whole point, they don't know what they want to make with the factory units, in BW mech had split upgrades because mech was a very good and autonomous composition, you had everything you needed in mech, and transition into BCs, Science vessels, and even wraiths and valkyries its a thing.
Making mech depend in the thor for AA is really bad, because the thor is really awful. If factory play was good I don't think it would be a problem, but its too dependant in starport units to be both good AND interesting.
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So they feel that Terran mech needed a better aoe AA unit. Fair enough, Thors are pretty shit. They introduce Valkyrie 2.0. Cool cool. It's a Starport unit. Oh but wait, Starport and Factory upgrades are split.
So now Terran mech has two mediocre aoe AA to choose from - upgraded Thors or unupgraded Liberators.
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EPT
