EPTOh well.. got into the beta yesterday . guess i'll have a looksi
LotV Balance Update Preview - May 21 - Page 11
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
Oh well.. got into the beta yesterday . guess i'll have a looksi | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On May 22 2015 15:18 Ej_ wrote: I like the new changes, but they could nerf thors a bit with valkyries back IMHO :[ I don't know why they don't just consider giving the viking a Fusion Core upgrade so they handle mass muta tech switches better in the late game. Like they could have 2 AA modes of attack after the upgrade similar to the siege tank. The long-range, single-target, anti-armor attack that we have now and then a new short range (5-6) anti-light splash attack from the upgrade. Makes more sense in my mind rather than having an entirely new standalone unit. I'm trying not to come down too hard on the Liberator considering I haven't even seen it in action yet, but the thing sounds like a total wasted opportunity. The name is at least badass though >.> | ||
digmouse
China6327 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I don't know why they don't just consider giving the viking a Fusion Core upgrade so they handle mass muta tech switches better in the late game. Like they could have 2 AA modes of attack after the upgrade similar to the siege tank. The long-range, single-target, anti-armor attack that we have now and then a new short range (5-6) anti-light splash attack from the upgrade. Makes more sense in my mind rather than having an entirely new standalone unit. I'm trying not to come down too hard on the Liberator considering I haven't even seen it in action yet, but the thing sounds like a total wasted opportunity. The name is at least badass though >.> Agree, the Liberator sounds like being there for having a new unit's sake, the Viking can fill it's spot perfectly with an upgrade, it is one of the few units in the game without any upgrades too. | ||
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Muxtar
Ukraine64 Posts
On May 22 2015 15:39 Bannt wrote: I don't understand why they insist on having split upgrades. It's just frustrating as a terran user and makes it difficult to transition to other tech effectively. So if zerg has to choose whether to upgrade either melee, or ranged, or air tech - then it is ok. If terran has to choose whether to upgrade either bio, or ground, or air tech - it is OMG UNFAIR IMBALANCED. Nice. P.S. I don't see a single terran player's ban for 'balance whining', which I got banned for when swarmhosts got nerfed. Is teamliquid terran fan-site? | ||
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Hassan_RO
Romania77 Posts
made BW good (for terrans at least) Air upgrades separate from Ground is no problem. If we have reliable air units (BC+Viking/Liberator+Raven) maybe we could see some terran air play come back..... Also I love the Liberator. Welcome back Valkyrie! Those people here saying that Terran didn't need a relatively mobile anti-mutalisk unit are not being quite honest. I mean, for us casual folks, who cannot constantly insta-drop-stim marines out of medivacs on the move and fight mutas with marines & godly micro......this is a perfect unit. Please don't bring up the Thor. It's a disaster as AA....basically a moving turret that is very heavily penalized by its immobility, slow firing rate and huge size (even with the AI-target AA). And it needs very deep factory tech (factory with techlab and armory), which doesn't synergise well at all with the current meta of Rines/Marauders/Medivac & Mines vZ. Hell, being able to pump out a mobile, airborn, anti-mutalisk unit from the same starport i get medivacs from? Thumbs up! And it can help abit with Phoenix openings i reckon. Last but not least about the turret, PLEASE dont revert this Blizz! Why, why do we honestly need to build an ebay...... Those people advocating ''more scouting''....do you watch the GSL? Do you see the places where people are hiding stargates and dark shrines these days? Completely out of the way, not in their base at all! Most of the maps are quite big and there are 1000 places to hide.....your reaper needs to be lucky or you will miss it, and even if you get lucky and find it at your 3rd or wherever, if the stargate is already done and you dont even have ebay, the Oracle will pwn you. Again, i am talking from a very casual guy's perspective that doesn't count probes quickly /doesnt know how to watch the protoss' gas to realise that its DTs/stargate and not blink stalker for example. Finally i am agreeing with veryone here saying that this kind of ''fine tuning'' is not needed at this early stage of the beta. This is the time to try out hardcore stuff! Fix the siege tank somehow! Nerf the mine a little bit so that its not mandatory against zerg! Give the Thor an actual use in TvP! Rework the raven! --> Make Raven Autoturrets AI target workers as priority so it can be a harassment tool, not just a random thing to put down/waste PDD energy --> Make the Seeker Missle actually useful / comparable to psi storm, so that we have an actual offensive caster, not just a defensive one with weak-ass offense. I am just talking from a terran perspective but also Z and P have some major problems to solve and if they dont solve them now / test some solutions i dont know when they will. | ||
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Asturas
Finland587 Posts
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On May 22 2015 06:25 Hider wrote: No terran doesn't have reliable scouting tools, that's the whole issue. Lol. Terran is the only race that has a scouting tool which can not be denied. Overseers, observers, hallucinations or any scouting unit can be shot down and heavily denied. Scan is the only scouting option which is impossible to deny. Terran is the only race that has a 100% reliable scouting tool, as it will always scout the area you want to have scouted. I'm curious if you play terran; that often alters perspective slightly, as to forget how zergs for example, have to sacrifice 150/50 to get scouting in. And if your scan fails to scout the area, how about being like protoss or zerg and using a speedy air unit (Medivac + boost for example) to scout an area. Or a viking, or whatever. Zergs have to invest 150/50 to scout, protoss have to invest energy or 25/75. Terrans can invest either energy, cheap reapers or if need be, a medivac. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9364 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:23 kaluro wrote: Lol. Terran is the only race that has a scouting tool which can not be denied. Overseers, observers, hallucinations or any scouting unit can be shot down and heavily denied. Scan is the only scouting option which is impossible to deny. Terran is the only race that has a 100% reliable scouting tool, as it will always scout the area you want to have scouted. I take it you play terran? Your posts have been full of bias in this entire thread. This isn't about balance. This is about game design (do we balance the game around rock scissor paper or do we create a foundation for a game with a proper defenders advantage?). So no, I don't care which race is 5% stronger than the othe race. All changes to all races that makes the game less coinflippy and increases the defenders advantage are good. And no scan isn't a reliable tool as you don't always scan the right location. Everyone who played a basic amount of terran games are aware not. Does that imply I think Zerg scouting tools are reliable enough? No, especially not with 12-max worker start and I want to see faster slow overlords. Toss was less reliant on scouting due to Photon Overcharge, which imo is a band-aid fix for a defenders advantage (this isn't the way it should be done). Zergs have to invest 150/50 to scout, protoss have to invest energy or 25/75. Terrans can invest either energy, cheap reapers or if need be, a medivac. Even with your edit, you still think this is about balance. Didn't you see that I previously (in this thread) made suggestions to compensate DT's and Oracles? | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:26 Hider wrote: scan isn't a reliable tool as you don't always scan the right location. Please do a basic amount of background research before posting loq quality comments again. Thanks in advance. So.. Be like the other races and start sacrificing units to get scouting in? Medivacs, vikings, reapers, hellions? We sac overseers, protoss sacs sentry energy or a potential unit; why would Terran be allowed to be so cocky as to not sac a unit? Also, you are a very immature and aggressive person who loves himself some ad hominem. Why is that exactly? Your overall posts seem very aggressive and provocative, belittling by nature. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9364 Posts
So.. Be like the other races and start sacrificing units to get scouting in? Medivacs, vikings, reapers, hellions? I am not arguing that zerg or toss shouldn't receive compensation buffs if terran get more reliable defenders advantage or scouting tools (quite the contrary actually). Reread my comments, and if you don't get the point, stop mentioning other peoples bias and instead ask questions in order to better understand what I am talking about. Thanks in advance. Also, you are a very immature and aggressive person who loves himself some ad hominem. Why is that exactly? Your overall posts seem very aggressive and provocative, belittling by nature. Eh, did you forget what you wrote yourself? Let me requote you for good measure: I take it you play terran? Your posts have been full of bias in this entire thread. You live in a glasshouse dude. Ignored from now on. | ||
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Herecomestrouble
9 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:13 Muxtar wrote: So if zerg has to choose whether to upgrade either melee, or ranged, or air tech - then it is ok. If terran has to choose whether to upgrade either bio, or ground, or air tech - it is OMG UNFAIR IMBALANCED. Nice. P.S. I don't see a single terran player's ban for 'balance whining', which I got banned for when swarmhosts got nerfed. Is teamliquid terran fan-site? You're clueless, Zergs don't need to build 8 barracks + addons to go bio nor 8 factories + addons to go mech, these buildings cost money and gas JUST TO GET THEM! and they can be killed ocationally, transitions do not exist if we are real unless you open slight bio (let's say 3 rack) and then go mech or vise versa, but that's not really all that great, its really down to the wire. Mech in sc2 is not like Brood War, BW mech had their upgrades divided because ground mech had a strong kit, Vultures which are like hellions except they can do more damage, cost less are faster and the most important part they can deploy 3 spider mines (similar to Widow mines except they don't hit air nor workers, only ground units) which requiered not only a lot of multitask to micro (move a mech army deploy mines or just as a harass unit, since it was the most iconic unit in the game because of its micro potential) and it also helped to cover flanks, something KEY that sc2 mech does not have and that's why everyone calls mech ¨turtle mech¨ because without something to cover your flank mech always gets swallowed by the fast/ strongly responsive/ easy to move / control units that Sc2 has nowadays And that's not all! BW had Goliaths, mid tier units that had an Anti air attack! unlike every sc2 mech unit (don't even dare to name the Thor, the Thor is like a big Marauder that shoots up but not even decently, the damage is bad the unit takes ages to build it has 0 micro potential because it also moves slow, it's horrible and no answer to air, especially not vs protoss air since they are not ¨bio-light¨ like mutas or whatever the designation is for them) Goliaths had lot of micro involved they were numerous and simple to transition since you already had the factories and they were well rounded vs ground too unlike thors which are half ass vs everything, zerglings own them so bad, just like Queens own Battlecruisers. That's not all! Tanks were badass, and made tons of damage, the most Iconic Terran unit which now is just in some weird spot, (i would fix it by giving it a faster attack speed ratio, maybe take like 10% damage away but give 40-50% extra attack speed) the unit simply attacks too slow for what the mechanics are on this modern ages, sc2 units respond super fast, move fast and they are smart about what they target, yet the tank gets like no time to do damage nor can be repositioned (don't bring medivacs they are not there to move tanks around on a 200vs200 battle, it's just wasted effort and... ofcrs... supply on medivacs like lol wtf you want medivacs for on a mech army? rofl maybe to drop hellbats but that's just about it, and they can't do both things at the same time can they?) they can land 2 shots if lucky before they die. Sc2 mech is a combination of Air+ Ground, unless you are pretty all in and just rallying units across the map and killing your enemy with them (which is not that often and considered cheese) you always need Starport units such as the Viking, Raven or the Banshee Splitting the upgrades just allows me to see that the people in charge of these type of decitions don't play nor watch their own game, maybe they're thinking about Heroes a bit too much. | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
EDIT: And to anyone that says Terran lacks scouting options, how can I even respond to this? Reapers provide the best early game scouting of all three races. And beyond that, its not like Terran has an ability to instantly reveal any part of the map or anything... For the record I play Terran. Anyone who thinks Terran is hard to scout with has obviously never played Zerg lol. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:26 Hider wrote: Even with your edit, you still think this is about balance. Didn't you see that I previously (in this thread) made suggestions to compensate DT's and Oracles? It is not about balance. All this is and ever was about, is your statement that Terran lack a reliable scouting option. I just told you the reliable scouting options for zerg/protoss, and showed that terran have those exact same options. So why would a medivac, hellion or reaper not be a reliable scouting option - along with a scan? Especially if scouting with units is more than adequate for zerg/protoss - why can't it be adequate for terrans? | ||
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Herecomestrouble
9 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:42 alexanderzero wrote: People complaining about the turret change sound like salty bronze-league players to me. Oracles can be scouted for by counting pylons, and if you can't scout DTs in time then there's really no hope for you. The only possibly bad thing is banshee openers being strong in TvT, but it's still one of the better matchups in HoTS as-is. EDIT: And to anyone that says Terran lacks scouting options, how can I even respond to this? Reapers provide the best early game scouting of all three races. And beyond that, its not like Terran has an ability to instantly reveal any part of the map or anything... For the record I play Terran. Anyone who thinks Terran is hard to scout with has obviously never played Zerg lol. And you sound like someone stuck in diamond, it's not about ¨scouting¨ it's about having an answer, oracles are not useless once turrets are built! like wtf, yeah it takes a bit more multitask and control from the oracle but you can still do damage, same with dts. Once you notice something's wrong inside Protoss base, and you know it's a proxy it doesn't even matter if you scout it/know where it is or not, you just drop an E-bay instantly, because you don't know what's going to be, (poor you if there's a gate and a blink build behind it... but not even taking that into consideration it's still a waste) you waste too much money, minerals are 100 times more important early game than late game... do people even think about this concept? no one seem to take this into consideration.. when you're starting the game having to waste not only 125 minerals but the scv building it plus the time it takes to do it! its just retarded at this point in this game; Why did they remove the need of an evo chamber from Zerg for example? (to get spores) E-bay + 3 turrets = 425 minerals + whatever those scv's would've mined on that time, probably around 75 aka 500 minerals, do you understand how much this is and how strongly puts the terran on their back foot? And again that's not even the core issue why the E-bay is bad... if you don't have it, you just die! there's no response, i don't know any other match up nor mechanic in which a player makes a building then produces a single unit from it, right clicks it and the enemy leaves the game/dies later 100% (unless it's a bronze player vs a master or something) it's just ridiculous, silly at this point. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Ghehe | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On May 22 2015 13:50 bObA wrote: Oracles and Mutas have this speed constantly and Warp prism after an upgrade. That's almost impossible to catch them. So that's pain in the ass for everybody please don't complain about terran with a little boots of several seconds Im not complaining. And I play Terran myself lol. Take a look at the race icon I didn´t choose it cause I was bored. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On May 22 2015 14:16 Muxtar wrote: So much balance whining from terrans. Poor poor terrans - how did they dare remove free turrets?! It doesn't matter that even with this e-bay requirement terrans feel pretty confindent in HotS and in beta as well, and you have been given new unit too. Moar balance whining! P.S. Mules -> free minerals - 125 minerals on e-bay isn't catastrophic requirement. Guess you have never died to a Unit that shows up at your base at the ~ 5.00 min mark that you can´t defend cause you don´t have enough numbers of your basic defending Unit. And the ones you already have melt to this Unit in seconds just as your workers. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On May 22 2015 10:57 Spect8rCraft wrote: I feel like the biggest problem with these updates is that a lot of them are balance updates (as the title implies, obviously), when they really should be design updates; they should finagle with the roles of units directly and more often at this stage of development, and leave the fine-tuning of balancing later down the road, if the beta is really going to be as long as they imply. Change up some old units, give some TLC to neglected units, take the opportunity to fine-tune staple units, etc. They took a big first step with the economy change and the rush of changes in the beta debut, but they seemed to have shrunk back significantly since. EXACTLY HOW I FEEL. Well said. Make BIG changes now... Because all the changes being made at the moment, are the same level of changes implemented in a typically balance update (The exception is the economy change. The economy change is a perfect example of a BIG change the game needs). I voted that I disapproved of the direction of changes, because for this game to be good and lasting, something significant has to change. I have been DIE-HARD fan and player since the game came out. One day mid-life of HOTS, I just decided to stop playing because I wasn't having fun anymore. I don't think it's because the "novelty" wore off, I think it's because eventually winning and losing ceased to feel rewarding/fun. I resented being put in the position to have to play a Swarmhost game, because it was the only viable option. I resented that it took me 1 hour to win and with the slightest misstep I lose my army and the entire match. I resented having to play split map and drag the game on for hours... After sitting and playing the game for 3 hours, I would be left feeling bitter/angry after loses and even wins. I could no longer justify participating in what was essentially 3 hours of "self-torment" that was supposed to be my leisure/fun time. See, the eco change drastically affected the total match time. I have never seen a 1 hour beta lotv game, which I love. I get that others might not love that, but at least it had a REAL substantial effect. The ONLY change in lotv I respect so far is the change made to economy. It is the only change that has had any real impact. Cyclones, ravagers, burrow speed, blah blah blah... These changes lead to the same traps that have plagued the game in HOTS and doesn't seem to make the game anymore "diverse". Those units are fun, and the micro requirements make the game a bit more exciting to play and watch, but to me the change doesn't feel big enough. It's just more of what I would get in a reg HOTS balance update, which in the end, didn't really make the game what people wanted it to be. If more big changes don't happen I can't see myself continuing with this game. Idk Blizz, maybe just do you're best to make the game the way the people want it to be made and ask for it to be made. Say fuck it, we are going to try DH mining because people seem to really want it. Instead it feels more like you're a parent (Blizzard) telling the kids (us, the community) that you actually know what's best for us and while we have some "cute" things to say... at the end of the day mother knows best. In reality, children are really smart and have some very legitimate teachings for adults. In this metaphor both sides parent/child are right, and the best option is seriously considering the validity and wisdom of both sides. Then just keep wide open communication between the two. Take the best from both sides and throw them together. Hell, put the game into "early access" I would pay full price for it now. That seems to be a model that really works for game development in this day and age. I bet you 90% + of people would make a full payment commitment right now, and you would get a much larger sample of data on changes made. This is another example of a "big change" that I would respect and I think might have a significant impact on the end result. | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
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Muxtar
Ukraine64 Posts
On May 22 2015 16:39 Herecomestrouble wrote: You're clueless, Zergs don't need to build 8 barracks + addons to go bio nor 8 factories + addons to go mech, these buildings cost money and gas JUST TO GET THEM! and they can be killed ocationally Zerg does need to build bases (at least one more than terran + macro) and queens, and not forget to make injections every ~40 sec in order to keep production. Terran just can spam E button if he forgot to call mules in time and be done with it, but this won't work for Zerg. And Zerg does need to spread creep between those bases (at least) in order to keep his whole army in one place (which is necessary vs. mech). And those bases can easily be harrassed or destroyed (hellions, hellbats, banshees) - and don't you dare to speak about spines/spores - it is just laughable vs ~5 cloaked banshees with +1 attack (at least) or blue-flames hellions/hellbats, who just annihilate all drones in 5 sec if Zerg does not react ASAP. Mech terran in the late game can sacrifice nearly all his SCVs and go full ~190/200 army supply with mules behind, which Zerg can not allow to do. So your whine has no solid ground beneath it. | ||
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