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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On May 22 2015 05:24 Solar424 wrote: The Liberator: because Terran needs even more ways to deal with Mutas Yes they do cause the Thor is awful a this role. Hope this is finally a reliable way to deal with these flyers that should have never gotten regeneration or a speed buff. At least for Mech.Dont know why so many Zerg Players are that biased about a Unit they cant Mass anymore and never should in the first place. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On May 22 2015 12:22 Tresher wrote: Yes they do cause the Thor is awful a this role. Hope this is finally a reliable way to deal with these flyers that should have never gotten regeneration or a speed buff. At least for Mech.Dont know why so many Zerg Players are that biased about a Unit they cant Mass anymore and never should in the first place. "Hope this is finally a reliable way to deal with these flyers that should have never gotten regeneration or a speed buff. I feel literally the exact same way as medivac boost costing no energy. A senseless speed buff that necessitated heavy buffs to Mutalisk because "drop play is cool and should always have a way to do damage." | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
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eCakes
Australia32 Posts
On May 22 2015 06:25 Hider wrote: No terran doesn't have reliable scouting tools, that's the whole issue. If you get lucky with your Reaper, good, if not you have to gamble (and yes scan is a gamble too). Again, it's no coincidence that no other succesful game right now doesn't punish you as severely for guessing wrong. Dying in CS? Ok, back again next round, and you can take a little break meanwhile or root for you team. Dying in LOL? You respawn and you now need to play a bit more carefully in lane. Dying in Heroes of the Storm early game?? Dying early game barely matters. And then we have Sc2 where all players are forced to have perfectly refined builds and scouting patterns to just survive... Imo refined builds and smooth scouting patternes should give you a reward but shouldn't kill you if you make a slight mistake. Unfortunately that is the case in Sc2, and it's part of the reason why entrance barriers to the game are so high. And even when you get good at figuring out all the early game builds and how to react perfectly to them, it's not even that fun. Instead, the real fun of Starcraft has always been related to controlling units. Not fucking scanning an enemy base or scouting with a reaper or Scv. People who defend the rock-scissor-paper element of early game RTS belong in the same category as those who defended no MBS, no automine and 12 unit-selection pre Sc2-release. For some reason, they have convinced them selves that these were essential parts of Starcraft, while in reality they are awfull for casual players and add nothing (to little) of value to the esport-part of the game. Game-design is about identifying what the majority of the target group finds fun and not fun about the game and then getting rid of the latter. People will frequently say "XX unit is fun to play", but have you ever heard a single Starcraft-gamer say "wow starcraft is really fun when you have a refined early game build, and even if you don't, early game is still really fun?" And there is a reason noone is complementing that part of Starcraft, and that's because the rock-scissor-paper element is genuinly not enjoyed by most players. This is a pretty serious rant, it sounds to me as though starcraft just isn't the game for you. If you prefer the game play elements of MOBAs then why are you here ranting about how starcraft isn't one? Just play a MOBA. Scouting is always a gamble in the early game regardless of race as there are always ways to deny or mislead the scout. I like that aspect of early game starcraft personally, but maybe I just played too many games of Battleship as a kid. Starcraft has always been extremely popular and not just for an RTS, so why are you comparing the gameplay of starcraft to other games in different genres? What does that prove? You can die a lot easier in CS than in SC even if you have a refined strategy, but you respawn next round because that is how the game is designed. If you don't like the "coin-flippy" nature of 1v1 in ladder then play some custom games or completely different games. I didn't play much BW ladder as a kid but I spent hours and hours playing custom maps. My point is if you dislike the way the game is designed then find another game. It took months for Blizz to even look at changing the Cyclone, you really think they are going to change their immensely popular game design up now? | ||
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crbox
Canada1181 Posts
Blizzard not addressing the real problems imo, oh well back to BW after HotS np | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Bakawanko
3 Posts
On May 22 2015 12:09 Beelzebub1 wrote: This this and this Why are they adjusting balance? This is the beginning phase of the beta so I'm massively curious why they aren't taking the biggest design changes NOW since there really is no better time to do it Major design changes like Warp Gate/Gateway unit overhaul are going to require testing and fine tuning thats going to take time, not to mention that Cyclones are still a disgusting unit to watch/play against they literally involve zero meaningful micro interactions, Adepts are still way too good in the early game and fall off hard in the mid to late game, Gateway is still useless to build. Ugh, I was so excited to have the Beta and I barely even touch it because there is almost nothing going on. Also Terrans have zero problem with air play so I'm not even sure what the point of this new unit is other then to give Terran another new unit in the expansion, Terran needs better tanks, a Raven redesign (auto turret probably the least elegant caster ability in the game) and Ghost buffs/redesign, not air splash, there is a million ways the Viking could have been made better or the Thor redesigned to provide that, why does the best designed race in the game need another unit just for the sake of having another new unit? Once again these changes are good and probably for the better but these are just small, timid little baby steps that I would expect after the game is released, not the major design changes that we were promised. Yeah I have the same feeling. The major design changes should happen BEFORE any of these small balance tweaks. From the looks of it Blizzard has in mind to ship HotS 2.0 and call it LotV. There are design problems with all 3 races but its most grievous with protoss that the community has been asking reworked. If truly large scale changes are being planned by blizzard now for LotV why bother tinker with these small things? These changes could prove good, bad, or even unimportant in the grand scheme once the big changes come, if even at all. It looks to be more of the same old same old. Polishing a turd doesn't make it any less of a turd. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Will the future changes undo the new changes that undid the old changes? | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On May 22 2015 02:47 Glorfindel! wrote: Yeah, I dont see any reason for Terran needing an Ebay to make a turret. Why on earth does Zerg not requires Evos to makes spores, lets revert that aswell then. So true !!! Ridiculous change | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On May 22 2015 12:53 Tresher wrote: I agree i found the Medivac boost stupid too. Its a pain for all races. Oracles and Mutas have this speed constantly and Warp prism after an upgrade. That's almost impossible to catch them. So that's pain in the ass for everybody please don't complain about terran with a little boots of several seconds | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On May 22 2015 13:50 bObA wrote: Oracles and Mutas have this speed constantly and Warp prism after an upgrade. That's almost impossible to catch them. So that's pain in the ass for everybody please don't complain about terran with a little boots of several seconds Yea except Mutalisks and Oracles in low to medium number get warded off by a turret or two and a single medivac drop laughs at static defense and will almost always do damage unless Zerg is absolutely on top of the drop. It's not imba, but it is a pain in the ass. | ||
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Muxtar
Ukraine64 Posts
Moar balance whining! P.S. Mules -> free minerals - 125 minerals on e-bay isn't catastrophic requirement. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On May 22 2015 02:48 The_Templar wrote: None of these changes besides the liberator really... do anything. So why is the beta supposed to be so long? Because the Blizzard design team wants to take their time with their own coronation. That's all this beta is. And the fanboys love it. You should be cheering, sir. | ||
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0mg_t1red
Russian Federation104 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
This is a pretty serious rant, it sounds to me as though starcraft just isn't the game for you. If you prefer the game play elements of MOBAs then why are you here ranting about how starcraft isn't one? Just play a MOBA. Your missing the whole point. This is about making a better game, that's what LOTV should be about. My point would be less valid if Starcraft was a constantly growing game and every top post on r/starcraft showed videos of early game scouting patterns w/ people discussing how fun that is, but that's not the case. You can't simply just say "no this is what Sc2 is atm, and therefore it should always be like this regardless of how poor of an experience it adds for most players". Also, RTS's are different from MOBA's in that you control multiple units (and Sc2 isn't a team game), but that's not to say that there isn't a lot to learn from other succesful games. I like that aspect of early game starcraft personally, but maybe I just played too many games of Battleship as a kid. Since you like that aspect, you should probably play poker instead of a game where mechanics matters! (You see what I did there? Yes that's an awfull way of arguing). I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. How is this a balance purpose when Zerg have new imba Vipers that hardcounters terran air? On top of that, do you ever see lots of Banshee's/Vikings along with mech in the later game vs toss and terran? Furthermore, the issue with airmech in TvZ HOTS was never with shared upgrades, but rather that Raven/Viking was ridcilous. There wasnt' any super strong get fast 3/3 timing that made mech too strong, but rather PDD was completely broken. Even without shared upgrades, terrans would eventually reach that state later in the game and the same lame gameplay would still exist. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10847 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Blizzard does not know what they are doing, and whoever is in charge of gameplay/balance is either really inexperienced or does not know their own game. Mech has not been a viable option for the longest time, especially vs protoss because of a lot of issues. No anti-air unit, too expensive upgrades/armories, many other nerfs to mech units / buffs to things like oracles/warp prisms etc...the list goes on. To see this patch, and to see the steps backwards blizzard are taking towards making LOTV an only bio game again is really disappointing to me as an sc2 player. They have repeatedly got it wrong so many times, over and over, to the point that something has to change and if these are truely the patch changes than i know nothing ever will change with this game. The missile turret requiring ebay again is the perfect example of blizzard being clueless. That change alone allows tvp early game to finally not be random bullshit anymore, and then they revert it. Also the changes are so tiny, so miniscule, so scared...no economy being tested... Where are the changes? This is beta? Blizzard said they'd change? Every 1 month the tiniest of changes, and they always move backwards in regards to mech viability. It's disappointing. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Bannt
United States73 Posts
If they insist on having all 3 it seems like it would almost be better to have a system where, for example, getting both upgrades for one branch gives a discount or research time decrease to the other branches for each tier of upgrades. And it's not like they can say, oooh but it is so imbalanced to have only 2 sets of upgrades. It's the beta, there's plenty of time to tweak things, and the game is going to be a little out of wack anyway. And I get that tech choice is supposed to be important, but investing in a whole set of upgrades when you don't need them seems like way too much of an investment, but researching them as you transition takes too long. And as an aside, it has been mentioned that many of these changes are 'balance tweaks'. Why the hell are they 'tweaking balance' if they plan on trying a lot of new things which are going to mess with the game anyway. Wouldn't it be more productive to just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall, see what sticks, refine, do it again, refine, THEN balance tweak? Shouldn't things like this be their focus right before the game comes out??? And perhaps I'm being a bit too critical, but I just think overall blizzard has been way to conservative with their approach to SC2 in general. They made a good game, and LOTV is going to be a good game. But if they want to make a GREAT game they have to get creative, they have to try things, they have to break things, they have to have failed ideas before they can get something truly awesome. As it stands they just seem afraid to break what they already have. Even in the live game i don't see why making bigger changes is such a bad thing. The best pros will adapt the quickest. The viewers will be constantly wowed by the cool new strategies that pop up instead of getting bored by meta that slowly converges towards similar gameplay every game. /endrant | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
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