EPTLotV Balance Update Preview - May 21 - Page 8
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On May 22 2015 08:05 TheWinks wrote: Removing upgrades also adds strategies, decisions, timings, and tactical choices. The different races are different and direct comparisons and talk of 'entitlement' isn't going to work. Should each zerg tech building have a separate set of larva to build only units associated with that tech building? No, that would be silly. I'm cool with maintaining strict lines between tech paths, but you have to design the comps with that in mind and have to accept that transitions aren't viable. HotS bio tvz is a great example. The widow mine doesn't benefit from attack upgrades because it deals spell damage and then by the time you have to mix in thors you have an economy where you can afford weapon upgrades for the Thor. If the widow mine required mech upgrades to stay viable against ling/bane, you'd have significant balance issues. I'm fine with leaving transitions mostly non-viable just like in HotS TvZ, but blizzard wants terran to, say, transition from bio tvz or tvp in the late game into ~something~. That's explicitly why they nerfed the marauder. Therefore they should be making decisions that lead them to this goal rather than erecting more walls. On May 22 2015 08:05 TheWinks wrote: I'm cool with the engy bay requirement with the 12 worker start, but zergs should have to have an evo for spores. On May 22 2015 08:05 TheWinks wrote:The different races are different and direct comparisons and talk of 'entitlement' isn't going to work. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9439 Posts
On May 22 2015 07:22 TheWinks wrote: You realize this would make oracles unstoppable gods tvp unless the damage nerf is so severe to make them worthless to build? If you spent 2 minutes before you made low-quality comments you probably realized that my changes actually overnerfed the Oracles damage vs light. Attack cooldown on Oracle is 0.86 now, and I suggested 2-2.5 and lower DPS vs light on top of that. That's actually way too much. On top of my head I can't remember exact attack cooldown I tested (yes I spent hours testing a version of this oracle, you could at least use two minutes before you write please), but it was probably closer to 1.5-1.6 now that I think about it. And with the right numbers, this doesn't make the Oracle either useless or OP. It actuallly does the opposite as its not longer a gimmicky unit that can be nullifed by critical mass, but instead a unit that gets utility through its moving shot. Similar to how Mutas functioned in BW. Very low fire rate doesn't really help I think, even if in your conception, glass cannon is a thing. I think that with enough endurance, it can be a good harass unit. In order to promote in-and-out micro, units needs to have a long attack cooldown, otherwise there is no reason to go out in the first place. Thus, either you go for this amove Oracle or you opt for a moving shot variant that has a low attack speed. In terms of stopping early Speedling harass, I think that's easily balanced by reducing energy cost (or jus removing it all together) of Pulsar Beam. Enemy no longer relies on Oracle running out of energy (which is a lame interaction in the first place) but instead can rely on micro. | ||
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movac
Canada494 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2657 Posts
I thought both upgrades was fine, it added a lot of variety to mech play. The problem isn't or was ever that it was too strong or too weak, they just need to know what the fuck they wan't with mech. Is mech a strong cost efficient composition that has a hard time producing units or take bases? Then its ok to have both since they would dependent on getting units, it doesn't matter how the upgrades cost since mech wouldn't have as many resources as other races. Is mech another mobile composition, not strong more mobile easier to take bases? then yes mech can have different upgrades since they can take as many bases and thus as many resources. So what does Blizz wants with mech? bio 2.0? more like broodwar? If they have no idea what mech is supossed to be no change will ever make sense. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On May 22 2015 05:19 Big J wrote: Zerg and Protoss can't "just do it", they have to setup forever to do so, or start mixing it in early. That's not different at all for Terran in TvZ and TvT. Opening and constantly producing a decent amount of banshee, viking and raven is possible. Playing defensively and eventually switching into a mainly airbased composition too. I don't see what you are talking about. If you want to, you can. If instead of playing defensively and getting a setup and a position where this starts making sense, you rather choose to use your resources to throw units into your opponent, then that's your choice. You can't play aggressive with unit replenishment and defensive with tech build up at the same time, that's not different at all for Zerg or Protoss. Well, here's the layout: Zerg: melee/air upgrades can be translated to tier 3 units like ultralisks and brood lords due to the muta/ling/bling composition. Also, in ZvP, roach/hydra can be transitioned into mutalisks. Zerg can develop a strong army of brood lords but can retain the mutalisks for map control. Protoss: though a bit slower than Zerg, it still can develop its t3 army due to its shared upgrades. The air transition is possible because some of the air units like phoenixes and oracles have utility throughout the entire game. Also, the warp prism can be used in staging grounds or harassment areas. I will definitely agree that these setups take time. However, Terran has the slowest rate of transition. If you look at all of the match ups except for TvT, Terrans have to usually stick to bio or mech. They cannot switch one way or the other because bio relies heavily on fast paced aggression while mech focuses on methodical positioning and build up. I want Terrans to be more like TvT where all of the units can be used together. Zerg and Protoss can do it, why can't Terran? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9439 Posts
(1) For balance purposes. (2) In order to promote interesting strategic options So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s. Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response. Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. | ||
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Magnet
United States77 Posts
Every item except one: Approve. Overall feeling on these changes: Disapprove. | ||
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Highways
Australia6119 Posts
It's a new game, why don't they take risks to make it a brilliant game. They need to make groundbreaking changes rather than these little tweaks. Is this a patch to HotS or a new $40 expansion. Make changes like: - Economy Changes - Warp Gate Changes - High ground advantage | ||
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Zode
Canada297 Posts
So they add some cool stuff to zerg for lotv, wait just kidding it's all already gone. Except nydus which is laughablly unkillable, woot? I just want good changes that make zerg feel swarmy, that actually make it feel like I can do something with the race other then defend until T/P thinks it's time to move out and kill me. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On May 22 2015 08:05 TheWinks wrote: Removing upgrades also adds strategies, decisions, timings, and tactical choices. The different races are different and direct comparisons and talk of 'entitlement' isn't going to work. Should each zerg tech building have a separate set of larva to build only units associated with that tech building? No, that would be silly. ROFL, no it certainly does not add strategy, decision and tactical choices, it removes any depth that those upgrades gave to the game. Every race has strong points and weaknesses, I need only one building to be able to mass produce units of that type, but that's the reason why every Zerg's ground unit has 1-2 upgrades that are essential for their working, where you if you go for Bio need Combat Shields and Stim and you are set, or when going for Mech you don't even need that. Upgrades like Cloak, Drilling Claws, Concussive Shells are all occasional upgrades where Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Hydras, Ultras, Infestors, Swarm Hosts just don't do anything without their upgrades. If you think that going for Mech and making Hellbats, Thors, Tanks, Medivacs, Vikings and Banshees while only in a need for mech attack and armor upgrades(and maybe Banshee's Cloak) is a good design and fair when compared to the other races, then you are pretty damn biased or lack the understanding of basic concepts in Starcraft 2, or both... | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 22 2015 08:59 Hider wrote: If you spent 2 minutes before you made low-quality comments you probably realized that my changes actually overnerfed the Oracles damage vs light. Attack cooldown on Oracle is 0.86 now, and I suggested 2-2.5 and lower DPS vs light on top of that. That's actually way too much. On top of my head I can't remember exact attack cooldown I tested (yes I spent hours testing a version of this oracle, you could at least use two minutes before you write please), but it was probably closer to 1.5-1.6 now that I think about it. And with the right numbers, this doesn't make the Oracle either useless or OP. It actuallly does the opposite as its not longer a gimmicky unit that can be nullifed by critical mass, but instead a unit that gets utility through its moving shot. Similar to how Mutas functioned in BW. In order to promote in-and-out micro, units needs to have a long attack cooldown, otherwise there is no reason to go out in the first place. Thus, either you go for this amove Oracle or you opt for a moving shot variant that has a low attack speed. In terms of stopping early Speedling harass, I think that's easily balanced by reducing energy cost (or jus removing it all together) of Pulsar Beam. Enemy no longer relies on Oracle running out of energy (which is a lame interaction in the first place) but instead can rely on micro. I would test Adept values on oracles. Adepts are known for being damage inneficient in high masses because of overkilling, and same could apply to Oracle. Adept weapon is completely outdated since the moment they removed chain damage. I think that if we can rebalance oracle with a harass basic attack, Pulsar beam goes out, even if it is quite interesting to snipe queens. I also played around with that a lot. Try to find the Values, that values might be the correct values for the Adept. | ||
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
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StalkerFang
Australia68 Posts
Blizzard really needs to take a page from Riot's book in this case. Say what you will about the company but their patch notes are pretty amazing, with in-depth paragraph-long explanations of even the smallest changes and multiple replies to community questions in each patch and design thread. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On May 22 2015 09:14 Hider wrote: It seems lots of people doesn't properly understand the purposes of upgrades. There are only two (legit) reasons to have upgrades in the game in the first place: (1) For balance purposes. (2) In order to promote interesting strategic options So what does air upgrades have to do with anything here? Does it promote cool new options? No, who the !@#$%^&* cares whether you make a new armory timing so you get air weapon upgrades 12 seconds earlier than with some other builds. Strategic diversity in Sc2 is mostly interesting when it either comes to the way you are using your units or which units you build in the first place. In fact, having weapon and armor upgrades at all is another old-fashioned concepts that we only have in Sc2 because we had it in RTSs made in the 90s. Going back to MOBA analogies, but one of the major strenghts of DOTA's (and Heroes of the StorM) relative to LOL is that items change the way you use your units while items in LOL are simply statbuffers. That's imo what upgrades should do (if not for balance purposes) in Sc2 as well and we don't need any more upgrades that add +5% DPS to a unit. No we need upgrades that have significant implications for the gameplay and forces the opponent to revisit his own strategy as a response. Thus, the interesting strategy here is whether you wanna mix in Banshee/Vikings with your mech or whether you wanna go pure mech. Not what types of armory-upgrades you get. I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 22 2015 09:49 chipmonklord17 wrote: I think what you're missing is that it is a balance purpose. At the moment terran can go mech and there is only one effective counter for zerg. Splitting the upgrades allows zerg to use air against mech which can't be done now because you get stuck with muta/corruptor that have 0/0 upgrades while the terran has whatever upgrades their ground has. This is going to (apparently) become more apparent when this new starport unit is out because its going to allow terran to go either barracks/factory/starport independently of each other. If two thirds of those units have the same upgrades that gives terran an inherent advantage because they can switch between factory and starport units at "no cost" relative to upgrades I said the same a page ago. Mech only needs 2 upgrades going (+ each unit upgrade) to run at max. In order to deal with Mech, other races have to play intensively, commonly with air units, involving at least 3 upgrades(ground armor, ground attack (meele or ranged) and air attack), to perform quite decently. Commonly 4 upgrades or the full 5 kit. Meanwhile, mech needs only 2. | ||
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ETisME
12737 Posts
I have been waiting for them to split up the mech air upgrade for a while, I think they could make it armor are shared though, it helps the air transition better. excited about the new unit, looks like terran will bring some freedom | ||
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