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On May 22 2015 05:19 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 05:14 Hider wrote:That's part of the game too. Openers are too homogeneous when you're completely safe from every cheese with a single opener. If your scouting tools are not reliable enough (which I don't agree with as a side note), that's what needs to be fixed. That type of logic is what keeps progress from occuring in an industry. You gotta look at what is fun about gameplay and what isn't. I guarantee you that almost all players hate the coinflippy openings of the game. It's not surprise that MOBA's have become so succesful by removing this element from the game. There's definitely still coinflips in MOBAs. They're different kind of coinflips but they have them. Hell the entire pick/ban phase is partially a coinflip. Then there are things like early jungle invades, early buff steals and the like that occur in LoL
LOL has a mich higher defenders advantage so you can afford to die or get behind early game and your team can still win (usually). At least I can't recall a single LOL game I have ever played (casual gold player fyi) where the loss could be almost entirely contributed to a coinflip.
But stuff such as "I didn't think he went Oracle/DT/Blink Stalkers" --> I instadie --> Awfull playing experience, and any progressive game designer would get rid of those elements.
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its fasinating how all except for one polls (excluding overall) show trends of approval, but the overall poll show trends of disapproval.
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On May 22 2015 05:52 Roblin wrote:
its fasinating how all except for one polls (excluding overall) show trends of approval, but the overall poll show trends of disapproval.
If i would guess, most people are fine with the "smaller"changes, but they are missing some heavy
alterations.
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Do they realize that: "Our hope here is that we see a good variety in the Barracks/Factory/Starport units be used in various matchups and situations." is completely undone by splitting the upgrades? There will now be much less variety as the upgrades tunnel you down ground or air tech paths. Good luck transitioning to air after you spent 800/800 on ground upgrades and your vikings are at 0/0.
Also, this turret change is going to bring back really lame builds that make HOTS awful. LOTV was thankfully less Oracle cheese dominated. Now every last Terran build must have 5 marines and/or an ebay to survive versus P (even if P doesn't go Oracle, the threat is there and must be dealt with because if you are wrong you lose).
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On May 22 2015 05:52 Roblin wrote:
its fasinating how all except for one polls (excluding overall) show trends of approval, but the overall poll show trends of disapproval.
People like the changes but they dont like the game. Changes are good but they are not enough.
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Also, why have the thor in the game now? Terran doesn't need two different anti-light air splash units. Terran also doesn't need two different high ground single target units. These two units will directly conflict for the same roles (but air versus ground). The loser will be the thor. Why make such a jank unit that costs so much yet is only used for its alternate anti-air attack?
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On May 22 2015 06:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Also, why have the thor in the game now? Terran doesn't need two different anti-light air splash units. Terran also doesn't need two different high ground single target units. These two units will directly conflict for the same roles (but air versus ground). The loser will be the thor. Why make such a jank unit that costs so much yet is only used for its alternate anti-air attack?
You will probably still produce Thors in the midgame vs Mutas as you don't have enough starport production.
But yeh, terran has become a race of too overlapping units.
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This is like watching a kid say he'd move a boulder, then having him sit their poking it with a stick.
Hopefully they muscle up in the next patch.
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On May 22 2015 05:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 05:19 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 05:14 Hider wrote:That's part of the game too. Openers are too homogeneous when you're completely safe from every cheese with a single opener. If your scouting tools are not reliable enough (which I don't agree with as a side note), that's what needs to be fixed. That type of logic is what keeps progress from occuring in an industry. You gotta look at what is fun about gameplay and what isn't. I guarantee you that almost all players hate the coinflippy openings of the game. It's not surprise that MOBA's have become so succesful by removing this element from the game. There's definitely still coinflips in MOBAs. They're different kind of coinflips but they have them. Hell the entire pick/ban phase is partially a coinflip. Then there are things like early jungle invades, early buff steals and the like that occur in LoL LOL has a mich higher defenders advantage so you can afford to die or get behind early game and your team can still win (usually). At least I can't recall a single LOL game I have ever played (casual gold player fyi) where the loss could be almost entirely contributed to a coinflip. But stuff such as "I didn't think he went Oracle/DT/Blink Stalkers" --> I instadie --> Awfull playing experience, and any progressive game designer would get rid of those elements.
The thing is it's not a guessing game.
You have scouting techniques and you should be able to tell when he's going for DTs or Oracles.
Any build that a Protoss is doing that looks like fast Oracle or DTs needs to get 2 gases. So the Protoss gives up some minerals to do that. Terran should have to give up some minerals in response..and I'm talking preemptively. Not just throw up 2 turrets at any time when the risk manifests itself.
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On May 22 2015 06:02 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Do they realize that: "Our hope here is that we see a good variety in the Barracks/Factory/Starport units be used in various matchups and situations." is completely undone by splitting the upgrades? There will now be much less variety as the upgrades tunnel you down ground or air tech paths. Good luck transitioning to air after you spent 800/800 on ground upgrades and your vikings are at 0/0.
Also, this turret change is going to bring back really lame builds that make HOTS awful. LOTV was thankfully less Oracle cheese dominated. Now every last Terran build must have 5 marines and/or an ebay to survive versus P (even if P doesn't go Oracle, the threat is there and must be dealt with because if you are wrong you lose).
I dont think they mean all the units in one game. I think they mean variety in your strategic options as a Terran player. You can go bio, or mostly factory, or mostly starport as 3 viable compositions... but not just do a zoo build of all types of units.
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On May 22 2015 06:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 05:44 Hider wrote:On May 22 2015 05:19 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 05:14 Hider wrote:That's part of the game too. Openers are too homogeneous when you're completely safe from every cheese with a single opener. If your scouting tools are not reliable enough (which I don't agree with as a side note), that's what needs to be fixed. That type of logic is what keeps progress from occuring in an industry. You gotta look at what is fun about gameplay and what isn't. I guarantee you that almost all players hate the coinflippy openings of the game. It's not surprise that MOBA's have become so succesful by removing this element from the game. There's definitely still coinflips in MOBAs. They're different kind of coinflips but they have them. Hell the entire pick/ban phase is partially a coinflip. Then there are things like early jungle invades, early buff steals and the like that occur in LoL LOL has a mich higher defenders advantage so you can afford to die or get behind early game and your team can still win (usually). At least I can't recall a single LOL game I have ever played (casual gold player fyi) where the loss could be almost entirely contributed to a coinflip. But stuff such as "I didn't think he went Oracle/DT/Blink Stalkers" --> I instadie --> Awfull playing experience, and any progressive game designer would get rid of those elements. The thing is it's not a guessing game. You have scouting techniques and you should be able to tell when he's going for DTs or Oracles. Any build that a Protoss is doing that looks like fast Oracle or DTs needs to get 2 gases. So the Protoss gives up some minerals to do that. Terran should have to give up some minerals in response..and I'm talking preemptively. Not just throw up 2 turrets at any time when the risk manifests itself.
The punishment for not making turrets is very extreme, so the investment to just always have turrets should be very low.
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On May 22 2015 06:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 05:44 Hider wrote:On May 22 2015 05:19 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 05:14 Hider wrote:That's part of the game too. Openers are too homogeneous when you're completely safe from every cheese with a single opener. If your scouting tools are not reliable enough (which I don't agree with as a side note), that's what needs to be fixed. That type of logic is what keeps progress from occuring in an industry. You gotta look at what is fun about gameplay and what isn't. I guarantee you that almost all players hate the coinflippy openings of the game. It's not surprise that MOBA's have become so succesful by removing this element from the game. There's definitely still coinflips in MOBAs. They're different kind of coinflips but they have them. Hell the entire pick/ban phase is partially a coinflip. Then there are things like early jungle invades, early buff steals and the like that occur in LoL LOL has a mich higher defenders advantage so you can afford to die or get behind early game and your team can still win (usually). At least I can't recall a single LOL game I have ever played (casual gold player fyi) where the loss could be almost entirely contributed to a coinflip. But stuff such as "I didn't think he went Oracle/DT/Blink Stalkers" --> I instadie --> Awfull playing experience, and any progressive game designer would get rid of those elements. The thing is it's not a guessing game. You have scouting techniques and you should be able to tell when he's going for DTs or Oracles. Any build that a Protoss is doing that looks like fast Oracle or DTs needs to get 2 gases. So the Protoss gives up some minerals to do that. Terran should have to give up some minerals in response..and I'm talking preemptively. Not just throw up 2 turrets at any time when the risk manifests itself.
Is not about scouting or not, scouting should be a tool to give you an edge, not a scout or die mechanic, its not good gameplay, no harras tool should ever be capable of completely win a game, also a good player will always get damage done with their units anyway its not like turrets completely stop things from damaging your workers.
This wouldn't stop harrasing tools from working it would simply make it so they don't just outright win the game.
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On May 22 2015 06:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 06:11 DinoMight wrote:On May 22 2015 05:44 Hider wrote:On May 22 2015 05:19 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 22 2015 05:14 Hider wrote:That's part of the game too. Openers are too homogeneous when you're completely safe from every cheese with a single opener. If your scouting tools are not reliable enough (which I don't agree with as a side note), that's what needs to be fixed. That type of logic is what keeps progress from occuring in an industry. You gotta look at what is fun about gameplay and what isn't. I guarantee you that almost all players hate the coinflippy openings of the game. It's not surprise that MOBA's have become so succesful by removing this element from the game. There's definitely still coinflips in MOBAs. They're different kind of coinflips but they have them. Hell the entire pick/ban phase is partially a coinflip. Then there are things like early jungle invades, early buff steals and the like that occur in LoL LOL has a mich higher defenders advantage so you can afford to die or get behind early game and your team can still win (usually). At least I can't recall a single LOL game I have ever played (casual gold player fyi) where the loss could be almost entirely contributed to a coinflip. But stuff such as "I didn't think he went Oracle/DT/Blink Stalkers" --> I instadie --> Awfull playing experience, and any progressive game designer would get rid of those elements. The thing is it's not a guessing game. You have scouting techniques and you should be able to tell when he's going for DTs or Oracles. Any build that a Protoss is doing that looks like fast Oracle or DTs needs to get 2 gases. So the Protoss gives up some minerals to do that. Terran should have to give up some minerals in response..and I'm talking preemptively. Not just throw up 2 turrets at any time when the risk manifests itself. The punishment for not making turrets is very extreme, so the investment to just always have turrets should be very low.
But if you make it so that "just always have turrets" isn't economically damaging, you have 200 minerals of turrets countering 300/300 of oracle/stargate. or 300/250 + the cost of DTs.
Maybe what they SHOULD do, is make the Oracle thing do slightly less damage but allow it to shoot for longer or give it a bit longer range or something. This encourages more harass / micro and reduces the binary nature of "yes I built turrets, am 100% fine" or "no I didn't build turrets, gg"
EDIT - let me reassure you that I think it's entirely idiotic that an Oracle can come in, kill 5 marines, and then rape an entire mineral line. But also, the guy building the Oracles is pretty fucked if it doesn't do damage because it's so expensive.
So they need to make it less binary. I think slightly longer range and less damage might accomplish that.
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On May 22 2015 06:02 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Do they realize that: "Our hope here is that we see a good variety in the Barracks/Factory/Starport units be used in various matchups and situations." is completely undone by splitting the upgrades? There will now be much less variety as the upgrades tunnel you down ground or air tech paths. Good luck transitioning to air after you spent 800/800 on ground upgrades and your vikings are at 0/0.
Also, this turret change is going to bring back really lame builds that make HOTS awful. LOTV was thankfully less Oracle cheese dominated. Now every last Terran build must have 5 marines and/or an ebay to survive versus P (even if P doesn't go Oracle, the threat is there and must be dealt with because if you are wrong you lose).
Why does terran need 3-3 on mech before it can start with air upgrades? A good metagame would allow terran to switch at different points of time in the game.
Just think about it this way:
a) the final goal is a balanced game
b) to achieve this, blizzard can either merge mech and air upgrades and make air units a bit weaker in the beginning or they split the upgrades and make air units a bit stronger in the beginning. As terran needs some lategame power, the latter one is the way to go. This is what blizzard is doing. Right choice.
Instead blizzard should do something about protoss upgrades. They can reach 3-0-0 or 3-X-Y on groundunits way too early with chrono boosts what is a bit odd. Protoss should be balanced around slower upgrades imo.
Protoss upgrading should be like this: Chronoboosts must be used on upgrades to be on par with terran. If they use chronoboosts on units/eco, they should be slower in upgrading than terran ... and then again be balanced around this.
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The thing is it's not a guessing game.
You have scouting techniques and you should be able to tell when he's going for DTs or Oracles.
Any build that a Protoss is doing that looks like fast Oracle or DTs needs to get 2 gases. So the Protoss gives up some minerals to do that. Terran should have to give up some minerals in response..and I'm talking preemptively. Not just throw up 2 turrets at any time when the risk manifests itself.
No terran doesn't have reliable scouting tools, that's the whole issue. If you get lucky with your Reaper, good, if not you have to gamble (and yes scan is a gamble too).
Again, it's no coincidence that no other succesful game right now doesn't punish you as severely for guessing wrong.
Dying in CS? Ok, back again next round, and you can take a little break meanwhile or root for you team.
Dying in LOL? You respawn and you now need to play a bit more carefully in lane.
Dying in Heroes of the Storm early game?? Dying early game barely matters.
And then we have Sc2 where all players are forced to have perfectly refined builds and scouting patterns to just survive... Imo refined builds and smooth scouting patternes should give you a reward but shouldn't kill you if you make a slight mistake. Unfortunately that is the case in Sc2, and it's part of the reason why entrance barriers to the game are so high. And even when you get good at figuring out all the early game builds and how to react perfectly to them, it's not even that fun. Instead, the real fun of Starcraft has always been related to controlling units. Not fucking scanning an enemy base or scouting with a reaper or Scv.
People who defend the rock-scissor-paper element of early game RTS belong in the same category as those who defended no MBS, no automine and 12 unit-selection pre Sc2-release. For some reason, they have convinced them selves that these were essential parts of Starcraft, while in reality they are awfull for casual players and add nothing (to little) of value to the esport-part of the game.
Game-design is about identifying what the majority of the target group finds fun and not fun about the game and then getting rid of the latter. People will frequently say "XX unit is fun to play", but have you ever heard a single Starcraft-gamer say "wow starcraft is really fun when you have a refined early game build, and even if you don't, early game is still really fun?"
And there is a reason noone is complementing that part of Starcraft, and that's because the rock-scissor-paper element is genuinly not enjoyed by most players.
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The patch is live?
EDIT: I'm blind. Patch preview.
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All i see is many terrans complaining because they have to make eng. Bay to get turret. When they have like 20 units more than other races and non of them got nerfed plus many of them got buffed.
Terrans are such whiners
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so is this like a valkyrie? i don't really get it.
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Hahaha, a majority of "approve" for single changes, but an overwhelming "disapprove" for "How do you feel about the overall direction of these changes?"
Problem is, people on TL absolutely want to see that fucking dual mining 8 or 9 or 10 or I don't know what else tested, and will never be happy short of that.
I like all the changes, though as usual they're a bit on the conservative side (that I can agree with).
The thing is, I don't think SC2 needs a lot of massive changes to be good (it's already good), contrary to popular TL belief. The new economy and the new units already make for a whole different game. People want to see huge changes to shit like warpgate, which obviously won't happen...
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On May 22 2015 05:27 LSN wrote:
I don't understand why ppl complain. This is nowhere near final anyway.
Announcing big changes does not forbid them to do minor tweaks!
It doesn't forbid them from doing minor tweaks as well as big changes, but there have been very, very few big changes since the beta came out (if any).
Introducing the Liberator DOES NOT count, Blizzard has a vested interest in creating new units for expansions that has absolutely nothing to do with making the game better - they need to put crap on the box cover to give casuals and critics something to get excited about.
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EPT
