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Flask start -> first item sightstone is pretty solid opening from a generic support perspective. If you really need max HP NOW you can get a ruby crystal before the sightstone instead of after. Sightstone / Ruby sightstone is just that good.
If you really want a philo (or any other GP10), get it after the sightstone or after ruby sightstone. Sightstone provides close to double the effective gold of a Philo even if you only use 2 of the wards every 3 minutes (~8 GP10 equivalent if you're using 2 wards from it every 3 minutes.) - if you replace a ward for whatever reason (or if one gets killed by a pink and you put it back down somewhere else) then it's even better. And it gives a reasonable amount of HP (moderate before the upgrade to ruby, great afterward)
Most of my games are going flask or faerie start + wards/pots -> first B buy sightstone -> second B buy Kage or Philo or upgrade to ruby sightstone OR kindlegem. After sightstone I prefer buying pink wards to supplement over green unless I anticipate needing a LOT of greens. You do need to carry more wards than JUST sightstone, though.
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Doran's Shield is also pretty damn good on aggressive supports, especially if you're going "in your AD's face" mode with at least 13 points in Defense for Block and then Ninja Tabi. Unfortunately for TL, it's no aura item 
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He should learn Jarvan and lux for supporting. HardCC and/or crucible will pay off wonders if you don't want to get a defensive item 3rd or fourth instead of more damage.
I'm telling you jarvan is so much better as a support in s3 then taric. get a wardens mail first on either now and you're unkillable in 100-0 fights bot and you can abuse this so hard with flask and a sightstone.
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On January 10 2013 05:33 sylverfyre wrote:
Flask start -> first item sightstone is pretty solid opening from a generic support perspective. If you really need max HP NOW you can get a ruby crystal before the sightstone instead of after. Sightstone / Ruby sightstone is just that good.
If you really want a philo (or any other GP10), get it after the sightstone or after ruby sightstone. Sightstone provides close to double the effective gold of a Philo even if you only use 2 of the wards every 3 minutes (~8 GP10 equivalent if you're using 2 wards from it every 3 minutes.) - if you replace a ward for whatever reason (or if one gets killed by a pink and you put it back down somewhere else) then it's even better. And it gives a reasonable amount of HP (moderate before the upgrade to ruby, great afterward)
Most of my games are going flask or faerie start + wards/pots -> first B buy sightstone -> second B buy Kage or Philo or upgrade to ruby sightstone OR kindlegem. After sightstone I prefer buying pink wards to supplement over green unless I anticipate needing a LOT of greens. You do need to carry more wards than JUST sightstone, though.
lol speaking of this I had a several people in a normal laugh at me for opening flask on support because "I hope you don't plan on taking enough damage to ever use flask".
0__0
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flask or dorans shield are the only viable openings on support IMO. The mana regen shit is okay if you are going to play passive and get philo and just use the gp10 but I never do that
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United States47024 Posts
Neither are surprising.
The mathematical value of locket drops if there are other locket carriers and you don't get full value from the shield.
Also, the chart calculates pure EHP, not EHP/gold. Which means Randuin's Omen being the highest value is expected because it costs the most. Also bumps certain items like Locket up a lot because they're lower cost.
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On January 10 2013 05:38 Requizen wrote:Doran's Shield is also pretty damn good on aggressive supports, especially if you're going "in your AD's face" mode with at least 13 points in Defense for Block and then Ninja Tabi. Unfortunately for TL, it's no aura item
I go 17-13-0 with dshield start on more or less all my ADs (but Sivir against a long-ranged one) just to bait a trade and laugh in his face. Works kinda well with Ashe too if you have the range advantage, suddenly you're outtrading as Ashe whenever you take a potshot before they react o/
About the above link, he used the s2 masteries instead of s3 tho. And he replaces the %ArPen mastery by LW instead of stacking it. And he calculates Abyssal as MPen instead of reduction. He does the same with %MPen mastery and LW. Well, actually it's just his rounding, nvm, I assume the spreadsheet uses the good value internally. But he uses Abyssal in his "triple pen" setup, but not in the "I LOVE PEN" one.
I've been thinking for quite some time (started near s2's end, when I learnt that GA would get nerfed) about building randuin's on AD carries as a defensive item, since it gives so much HP, a good deal of armor and even active/passive to help you take less damage/kite better. It's been nerfed since but apart from the awkward build up + price it's looked like a solid alternative for some time already. I didn't anticipate it being that good on paper though.
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On January 10 2013 05:13 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 04:54 Mondeezy wrote:
A few pages late on this, but has the ADC playstyle changed a bit since last season, or is it just me?
My buddy and I used to play super aggro bot and win lane 90% of the time, now we lose lane more than half of the time. I'm not sure if its the lane comps we play, bad trading, or getting one shot by a bruiser unless I literally kite a mile away from the fight. Before I used to be able to just out skill the bruisers or other lanes, kill them quickly and continue fighting. Now I either kite them for minimal damage while taking quite a bit of it, or flat out die to an assassin.
Just doesn't seem as fun/rewarding anymore but he only plays support and I don't wanna bail on him. I've always mained top but considered myself a decent ADC up until this point. Maybe he hasn't adjusted (he never knows what items to start or what support to pick) or maybe I haven't. Idk :/
I can't speak to you losing your lanes because there aren't enough details to tell what's going on. It could be your buddy's unfamiliarity with the new items. It could be that you're underestimating creeps. It could be that Elo compression is placing you against more skillful players than you're used to. It could be a lot of things. However, the teamfight issue you've noticed is exactly what TheYango was grappling with when he suggested building AD carries more like bruisers. The issue itself got lost in the kerfuffle over TheYango's proposed solution, but it's a problem that will grow in prominence as more and more players realize how stupidly effective assassins are right now.
To be honest I think it's a combination of reaching our true elo and him not adjusting to the new season. He's a fairly casual player and we only play normals, so he doesn't care to adjust when I tell him what changed. However for team fights I may start building GA before LW unless they're massively stacking armor, otherwise I don't get to put out any damage regardless.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 10 2013 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
flask or dorans shield are the only viable openings on support IMO. The mana regen shit is okay if you are going to play passive and get philo and just use the gp10 but I never do that
Shield's OP, but my ADs cry more often than not if you don't bring a ward to lane. Therefore, you're left with only flask. Not a bad thing though.
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On January 10 2013 06:03 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
flask or dorans shield are the only viable openings on support IMO. The mana regen shit is okay if you are going to play passive and get philo and just use the gp10 but I never do that Shield's OP, but my ADs cry more often than not if you don't bring a ward to lane. Therefore, you're left with only flask. Not a bad thing though.
You can open cloth if you want the tankiness combined with wards. I do that on sona vs taric/leona lanes and I find that you won't get blown up, and shot for shot you outtrade the AD carry while having a much better form of sustain(assuming you took 13 defense)
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 10 2013 06:07 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 06:03 Roffles wrote:On January 10 2013 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
flask or dorans shield are the only viable openings on support IMO. The mana regen shit is okay if you are going to play passive and get philo and just use the gp10 but I never do that Shield's OP, but my ADs cry more often than not if you don't bring a ward to lane. Therefore, you're left with only flask. Not a bad thing though. You can open cloth if you want the tankiness combined with wards. I do that on sona vs taric/leona lanes and I find that you won't get blown up, and shot for shot you outtrade the AD carry while having a much better form of sustain(assuming you took 13 defense)
Fuck cloth armor. DShield OP. Health, Armor, Health Regen, OP Passive. CAN A CLOTH ARMOR GIVE ME THAT?
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I guess I'm still in the old s2 mindset, I still rush philo+kages, before getting sightstone. Flask start can be pretty good if you plan on winning your lane or losing your lane HARD. Otherwise I prefer anal bead start, into philostone.
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On January 10 2013 05:21 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 05:13 Seuss wrote:On January 10 2013 04:54 Mondeezy wrote:
A few pages late on this, but has the ADC playstyle changed a bit since last season, or is it just me?
My buddy and I used to play super aggro bot and win lane 90% of the time, now we lose lane more than half of the time. I'm not sure if its the lane comps we play, bad trading, or getting one shot by a bruiser unless I literally kite a mile away from the fight. Before I used to be able to just out skill the bruisers or other lanes, kill them quickly and continue fighting. Now I either kite them for minimal damage while taking quite a bit of it, or flat out die to an assassin.
Just doesn't seem as fun/rewarding anymore but he only plays support and I don't wanna bail on him. I've always mained top but considered myself a decent ADC up until this point. Maybe he hasn't adjusted (he never knows what items to start or what support to pick) or maybe I haven't. Idk :/
I can't speak to you losing your lanes because there aren't enough details to tell what's going on. It could be your buddy's unfamiliarity with the new items. It could be that you're underestimating creeps. It could be that Elo compression is placing you against more skillful players than you're used to. It could be a lot of things. However, the teamfight issue you've noticed is exactly what TheYango was grappling with when he suggested building AD carries more like bruisers. The issue itself got lost in the kerfuffle over TheYango's proposed solution, but it's a problem that will grow in prominence as more and more players realize how stupidly effective assassins are right now. Does this mean that people are finally, re-realizing why characters like Panth, Eve, and Talon were allowed to languish for so long? That they are realizing that an assassin is Either UP or OP and there is no middle ground? Or is it just an offhand comment bu Suess?
I wouldn't say people understand why such characters are effective, and they certainly aren't making the connection to the periods of languish these characters suffered. However, it's clear that at least a few players have noticed that assassins are effective, even to the point of winning games with Talon/Kha'zix/Zed in the place of an AP carry. Most of the games I played last night had at least one, if not two, AD assassins middle (something you would rarely see in Season 2).
Given that it's only just now coming up as a topic of discussion here, I'd expect another month or two to pass before critical mass is reached.
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How in the hell would starting flask make the lane binary in the sense of winning or losing it hard? It's like the safest way to open in almost any situation.
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I like flask because it also gives mana regen (Sona, Alistar, Taric once you start using Q), pays really easily for itself, and as a support I know I'll back somewhat often for wards or components (or as the result of my pretty aggressive playstyle) so I can spam its charges without remorse.
The regen on philo are so weak I wouldn't even consider building it anymore, I'd go with a kindlegem, get cramped on slots, and finish Shurelya in one go if I need it, I think. Locket's just too good whenever you plan on trading hard, flask gives me some regen on Leona if I eat poke before 3, and sightstone is so core I'd get it over any gp5 item.
Flask > philo regen
Sightstone > philo gp5
Locket > towers
HOLY SHIT Scarra clears entire minion waves so fast with Hydra+E on Lee Sin. o_o 3 clicks, +15 cs.
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On January 10 2013 05:38 Requizen wrote:Doran's Shield is also pretty damn good on aggressive supports, especially if you're going "in your AD's face" mode with at least 13 points in Defense for Block and then Ninja Tabi. Unfortunately for TL, it's no aura item
Doublelift and Aphroomoo Alistar/Blitzcrank Doran shield start double offensive summoners so funny
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On January 10 2013 06:20 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 05:21 cLutZ wrote:On January 10 2013 05:13 Seuss wrote:On January 10 2013 04:54 Mondeezy wrote:
A few pages late on this, but has the ADC playstyle changed a bit since last season, or is it just me?
My buddy and I used to play super aggro bot and win lane 90% of the time, now we lose lane more than half of the time. I'm not sure if its the lane comps we play, bad trading, or getting one shot by a bruiser unless I literally kite a mile away from the fight. Before I used to be able to just out skill the bruisers or other lanes, kill them quickly and continue fighting. Now I either kite them for minimal damage while taking quite a bit of it, or flat out die to an assassin.
Just doesn't seem as fun/rewarding anymore but he only plays support and I don't wanna bail on him. I've always mained top but considered myself a decent ADC up until this point. Maybe he hasn't adjusted (he never knows what items to start or what support to pick) or maybe I haven't. Idk :/
I can't speak to you losing your lanes because there aren't enough details to tell what's going on. It could be your buddy's unfamiliarity with the new items. It could be that you're underestimating creeps. It could be that Elo compression is placing you against more skillful players than you're used to. It could be a lot of things. However, the teamfight issue you've noticed is exactly what TheYango was grappling with when he suggested building AD carries more like bruisers. The issue itself got lost in the kerfuffle over TheYango's proposed solution, but it's a problem that will grow in prominence as more and more players realize how stupidly effective assassins are right now. Does this mean that people are finally, re-realizing why characters like Panth, Eve, and Talon were allowed to languish for so long? That they are realizing that an assassin is Either UP or OP and there is no middle ground? Or is it just an offhand comment bu Suess? I wouldn't say people understand why such characters are effective, and they certainly aren't making the connection to the periods of languish these characters suffered. However, it's clear that at least a few players have noticed that assassins are effective, even to the point of winning games with Talon/Kha'zix/Zed in the place of an AP carry. Most of the games I played last night had at least one, if not two, AD assassins middle (something you would rarely see in Season 2). Given that it's only just now coming up as a topic of discussion here, I'd expect another month or two to pass before critical mass is reached.
I think EVERYONE has noticed assassins are effective. I'm just wondering how long it takes for people to realize why assassins should not be effective. Or, if they are, they need to be designed anti-mage style where they are not able to assassinate until deep in the game and are not that strong early.
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philo actually gives more mp5 than it did in s2, were people really buying it for the hp5?
although, the mp5 on philo is weaker now in the sense that its upgrade, shurelya's, got its mp5 severely reduced.
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I only really got it for mainly the mp5 on Sona. Now I just use my flask then I grab a chalice, knowing that it'll turn into crucible eventually.
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EPT
