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On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP?
On January 10 2013 07:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:Mhm. The thing I really hate about mid lane right now is that with flask + pots/regen starts, it's almost impossible for a standard AP to punish an assassin early game before they get too strong to overcome (ie. Kass pre 6, Khazix in general, etc.) without outside assistance. It is incredibly easy for an enemy jungler to snowball an assassin mid just because of how safe playing an assassin is right now. There is almost no compensation for having ridiculous snowballiness. This sucks in particular for me because I excel at zone control mages, but I am utter trash at assassins.
At least, that's just my opinion. Bruisers/assassins just ridiculous right now.
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S3 Jungle sucks. It's like S2 but GP5's suck more. My poor tree man Maokai went from 68.2% winrate to 50%  .
Seems like hard carries like Noc and Diana are a bit better, and utility tree helps a bit, but I still feel like a glorified roaming support.
Oh and also my jungle still gets robbed blind by my carries. Just takes like 3-4 minutes longer to start up than S2.
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Jungle's awkward state is sort of compounded by two things: the direct changes to the jungle (which I can understand, but I still believe were misguided), as well as the somewhat separate changes to the dynamics of vision/vision denial (some intended, some unintended).
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On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP?
I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor.
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On January 10 2013 07:32 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:Mhm. The thing I really hate about mid lane right now is that with flask + pots/regen starts, it's almost impossible for a standard AP to punish an assassin early game before they get too strong to overcome (ie. Kass pre 6, Khazix in general, etc.) without outside assistance. It is incredibly easy for an enemy jungler to snowball an assassin mid just because of how safe playing an assassin is right now. There is almost no compensation for having ridiculous snowballiness. This sucks in particular for me because I excel at zone control mages, but I am utter trash at assassins. At least, that's just my opinion. Bruisers/assassins just ridiculous right now.
Then that's just assassins being redonkulous, not an issue with APs.
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So the teams in the S3 League won't be guaranteed a chance to go to the world championship series, since the bottom half of each region will have to fight to keep their spots halfway through the season... meaning those who didn't make it atm can train harder and aim at a promotion later on, without having to give up all hopes on a world championship presence.
I like it, more promotion chances means more incentive not to slack after the initial qualifiers.
On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix.
I smiled as as much as I like Randuin's, it's more awkward/inefficient to build than it was in s2 and he doesn't seem to realize it (can sit on HoG+mail and only needs 900 to complete, can sit on HoG+chainvest for low price components and have a smooth build-up of 650 -> mail then 900 -> randuin's).
He's also complaining a lot about the ADC item nerfs while, despite being true, it's far from being the main issue affecting them. I wonder if some bruisers wouldn't like Banshee now btw, with FoN's removal and the potential lack of interest for SV is you aren't too interested in the passive*/cdr.
I hope Riot won't have any kneejerk reaction, seeing as they already plan to nerf all AD "assassins" (I'm still waiting for people to stop rushing BC on Panth to get a truer idea of how good he is currently).
* Just learnt that SV doesn't enhance heals cast on you (summoner spell/Soraka/etc.). ôo Lowers a lot its interest for non-sustain champs indeed.
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How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards.
also the AD bruiser thing is only really a problem in solo q. in competitive play you still see the same old casters being picked mid because of the CC utility and burst damage they bring, not the solo q pubstompers because you can just coordinate with your team to have that character camped so you can farm up as AP.
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On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor.
The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways.
Could have better options though, I agree.
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I don't think S3 jungle sucks that much, but I don't theorycraft or crunch numbers nearly enough. I've had success with a number of champs and never really felt useless except that one time on Riven where I went Wriggle's/Mercs and did no damage.
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On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards.
No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing.
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On January 10 2013 07:38 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor. The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways. Could have better options though, I agree.
Or just have APs build Locket.
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On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards.
Well I really think anyone who plays ad has noticed that your running in teamfights has increased by quite a bit  .Also I am really confused why riot didn't change blood boil.I thought it would be pretty op even before s3 started when they announced the base ms buff(probably anyone who plays a lot of ad or supp thought so too).Also MF ult makes me cry.Beat her in lane and then when you are too busy running mf just clicks r and does triple your damage xD.
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On January 10 2013 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards. No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing.
"ADs have gotten destroyed. It was necessary but now it's gone over the top." "Essentially, I feel like ADs are much too easy to shut down in the current state of the game."
If that doesn't mean he thinks AD carries are weak, I dont know what does.
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On January 10 2013 07:34 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:32 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? On January 10 2013 07:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:Mhm. The thing I really hate about mid lane right now is that with flask + pots/regen starts, it's almost impossible for a standard AP to punish an assassin early game before they get too strong to overcome (ie. Kass pre 6, Khazix in general, etc.) without outside assistance. It is incredibly easy for an enemy jungler to snowball an assassin mid just because of how safe playing an assassin is right now. There is almost no compensation for having ridiculous snowballiness. This sucks in particular for me because I excel at zone control mages, but I am utter trash at assassins. At least, that's just my opinion. Bruisers/assassins just ridiculous right now. Then that's just assassins being redonkulous, not an issue with APs.
Yeah, it's more a relative feel.
On January 10 2013 07:38 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor. The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways. Could have better options though, I agree.
And this fix feels terrible. I hate rushing a Chain Vest. With penetration the way it is now (and how cheap and good Brutalizer is), it feels like the Chain Vest isn't that useful, and I end up being so far behind damage wise compared to the naturally good scaling/item transition of assassins/bruisers.
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On January 10 2013 07:38 Requizen wrote:
I don't think S3 jungle sucks that much, but I don't theorycraft or crunch numbers nearly enough. I've had success with a number of champs and never really felt useless except that one time on Riven where I went Wriggle's/Mercs and did no damage.
The biggest problem are the secondary issues of vision/vision denial in higher level play (Oracle's nerf, Flask/etc. allowing laners to have wards up from the beginning of the game, Sightstone reducing the effective cost of warding, etc.). The itemization/camp difficulty changes suck, but are manageable given the comparative smoothness of defensive/supportive itemization in the game's current state.
This has been exemplified by the fairly low efficacy of jungler ganks in recent high-level games (see last night's G-League and OGN matches).
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On January 10 2013 07:42 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards. No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing. "ADs have gotten destroyed. It was necessary but now it's gone over the top." "Essentially, I feel like ADs are much too easy to shut down in the current state of the game." If that doesn't mean he thinks AD carries are weak, I dont know what does.
He also thinks everyone's trash.
Hyperbole, wut?
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On January 10 2013 07:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:38 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor. The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways. Could have better options though, I agree. Or just have APs build Locket.
For several APs Banner of Command is quite strong. On Heimer, Malz, Annie, Morde, Elise, etc. the summons benefit from the 15% damage aura, and the active helps them shove their lane and roam.
I think I have seen the item built once, which is surprising because it builds smoothly from a cloth/5 start, provides some lane sustain, and gives a pretty good chunk of AP. In the next patch, with the 10% CDR buff, I could see it becoming a pretty good niche item.
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On January 10 2013 07:44 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:42 VayneAuthority wrote:On January 10 2013 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards. No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing. "ADs have gotten destroyed. It was necessary but now it's gone over the top." "Essentially, I feel like ADs are much too easy to shut down in the current state of the game." If that doesn't mean he thinks AD carries are weak, I dont know what does. He also thinks everyone's trash. Hyperbole, wut?
"riot should just delete all ad carries from the game"
thats hyperbole
what he said is not
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On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards.
When you can get one-shot rather easily (it was the case before, but it was more of a midgame issue while now it stays true even in the lategame) you're much more difficult to play, or you lose effectiveness by having to play "safer" (as in the day where Irelia has to rush defensive items to survive and can't afford to start triforce or wit's anymore she'll be "weaker").
On January 10 2013 07:38 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor. The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways. Could have better options though, I agree.
Thing is, unless zhonya is part of your core (who now? Diana, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Kennen, Vlad, sometimes Akali it seems? Not Swain because he needs a mana source too badly) you're delaying it by buying such an early chainvest. Since mages/casters in general, not just assassins, rely on snowballing and hit a power peak in midgame (Yango's take on Syndra's powercurve is a glorified example of this) it makes them less effective as they may hit their "golden" levels without their core/major items completed, and thus be less effective than before.
It's not ruining them, but it sure is making their life harder (especially if they can't farm as freely as before, meaning it'll take them even longer to hit a big component like NLR after their chain vest).
Of course, to the side stands Karthus, all snarky.
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"You're going to see a lot more hypercarries like Kog, Trist, Cait, Twitch who do absolutely nothing but stall the game until they get 6 items. You're also going to see MF every game because she takes absolutely no skill and low item requirements to press R and destroy a teamfight."
LOL
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EPT
