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On January 10 2013 07:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:38 Requizen wrote:
I don't think S3 jungle sucks that much, but I don't theorycraft or crunch numbers nearly enough. I've had success with a number of champs and never really felt useless except that one time on Riven where I went Wriggle's/Mercs and did no damage. The biggest problem are the secondary issues of vision/vision denial in higher level play (Oracle's nerf, Flask/etc. allowing laners to have wards up from the beginning of the game, Sightstone reducing the effective cost of warding, etc.). The itemization/camp difficulty changes suck, but are manageable given the comparative smoothness of defensive/supportive itemization in the game's current state. This has been exemplified by the fairly low efficacy of jungler ganks in recent high-level games (see last night's G-League and OGN matches).
Rather than us rabbling at Riot about it, is there ways to change play to make this better? Should junglers be carrying pink wards, or always save 400g for an Oracles and just hold it until they gank? Should top and mid get pink wards much like supports do and battle out vision that way? Or do you truly think that it's a design flaw, and that Riot actually needs to make changes regarding wards, sightstone, and Oracles?
I don't know either way, but I'm always a little downtrodden when I hear people imply that there's 0 workaround for a problem, and I really don't think that it's something good players can't learn to deal with.
On January 10 2013 07:44 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:42 VayneAuthority wrote:On January 10 2013 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards. No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing. "ADs have gotten destroyed. It was necessary but now it's gone over the top." "Essentially, I feel like ADs are much too easy to shut down in the current state of the game." If that doesn't mean he thinks AD carries are weak, I dont know what does. He also thinks everyone's trash. Hyperbole, wut?
We don't like that term around here >.>
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On January 10 2013 07:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:38 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:34 Mondeezy wrote:On January 10 2013 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:25 HazMat wrote:On January 10 2013 07:20 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:17 TheYango wrote:At the same time, I think DL does a bit too much complaining and not enough thinking on how to PLAY around the issues rather than asking Riot what to fix. Top and Jungle are my biggest gripe atm, Jungle moreso. Double's gripe about ADC items is just personal to him. But he's right, there's a slew of nerfs directed towards ADC. It's pretty bitter to just tell him "adapt you trash". ADC's have it A LOT better than jungle and AP casters so it's silly to whine about ADC's getting nerfs that he even admitted were necessary. I think the strenght of bruisers is a problem, not the "weakness" of ADCs. I don't we have anyone has commented positively about S3 Jungle on TL yet. @_@ What's wrong with AP? I think people think AP is currently weak due to a lack of a good item for cloth armor + ap item to build into. Personally I think they're fine, just need to adjust build path to get chain vest earlier. Perhaps a new build path for an existing item that includes cloth armor. The really unrefined answer to this right now is to just have APs build Chain within their first 1K-1.5K gold. Like how a lot of APs rush Negatrons against LeBlanc. Chain Vest can always be used for Zhonya's anyways. Could have better options though, I agree. Or just have APs build Locket.
Scarra freaked out yesterday when he saw a Rumble had built Locket against Zed in lane. 
I had a Cass going tabi+banner of command against my Wukong (ended up having to go mid, wasn't intended) because she went double cloth after her fist back (in the end they were useless because her range + Q's MS buff + Janna on her team meant I never managed to reach her).
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United States47024 Posts
I do agree people should be buying more pinks. I think people should be buying more pinks. Honestly, the ward spots everyone uses are so generic that they're always going to be high-efficacy.
The problem is that's only really a temporary solution. Once people figure out lower vision but harder to de-ward locations for green wards, it's going to be hard to use pinks to de-ward in a cost-efficient manner. This is hampered by the limited ability of pinks to adequately de-ward multiple wards, due to the fact that a pink has to be IN the brush for you to de-ward the brush (e.g. allied vision can't grant vision for a pink ward's detection).
The way detection/allied vision work together is actually an interesting break from how detection/allied vision work in BW/WC3/SC2 (where a detector can detect up a cliff/past a vision blocker if something on the other side grants vision). I'm curious why Riot changed this.
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I still think a good way to deal with wards is to make it so they cant see OUT of a brush if you drop it in one.
There is no way it ever gets switched to a Dota style stock system IMO, just doesnt seem to fit in Riot's philosophy.
However, given the prevalence of wards it might be a good idea to start looking at ways to fundamentally change how they work, because realistically they are a different breed from their Dota counterparts on which they are based.
For instance, perhaps having more wards in an area causes them to decay faster, or limits their vision, or something to that effect.
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Seems like Thresh is being designed to be lord supreme of peelings. Not that 1 champ will make a role better, but I can see him being mandatory for 4-protect-1 against double assassin comps
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2013 08:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I still think a good way to deal with wards is to make it so they cant see OUT of a brush if you drop it in one.
There is no way it ever gets switched to a Dota style stock system IMO, just doesnt seem to fit in Riot's philosophy.
However, given the prevalence of wards it might be a good idea to start looking at ways to fundamentally change how they work, because realistically they are a different breed from their Dota counterparts on which they are based.
For instance, perhaps having more wards in an area causes them to decay faster, or limits their vision, or something to that effect.
Honestly if they just changed the detection rules with respect to allied vision to match BW/WC3/SC2, it would significantly increase the efficiency of pink wards used to de-ward.
If you have 2 wards in 2 adjacent brushes, there's absolutely no way to de-ward both of them without using 2 pink wards (or Oracle's). So if the enemy wards both of them, they get approximately equivalent vision if you de-ward one, and it's a huge investment to de-ward both (whereas its a small investment to ward both).
If the vision rules matched BW/WC3/SC2, where a detector can detect through vision blockers provided an ally grants vision, you could de-ward both with 1 pink ward.
This is hugely relevant to sidelane wards, where there are multiple common ward locations that are all technically within the radius of 1 pink ward's vision, but you can't actually de-ward them with 1 pink ward because of walls/brushes.
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On January 10 2013 07:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:Mhm. The thing I really hate about mid lane right now is that with flask + pots/regen starts, it's almost impossible for a standard AP to punish an assassin early game before they get too strong to overcome (ie. Kass pre 6, Khazix in general, etc.) without outside assistance. It is incredibly easy for an enemy jungler to snowball an assassin mid just because of how safe playing an assassin is right now. There is almost no compensation for having ridiculous snowballiness. This sucks in particular for me because I excel at zone control mages, but I am utter trash at assassins.
I feel you in that last line man, my most succesful were Syndra/Viktor near the end of S2, on the upside I now just play Swain anytime I have to mid and blow kids up.
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What is a good 2nd dmg item on irelia besides Triforce? :O I had tf, boots2, Warmogs and Randuins and thought that I needed a bit more dmg. Maybe bt?
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United States37500 Posts
On January 10 2013 08:07 AsnSensation wrote:
What is a good 2nd dmg item on irelia besides Triforce? :O I had tf, boots2, Warmogs and Randuins and thought that I needed a bit more dmg. Maybe bt?
Zephyr or Wit's End.
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Play like wickd.Go cleaver>tf>lw and say "wow their ad hurts".
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cleaver sounds good, since her ult is physical dmg, it applies stacks just like mf ult right?
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ghostblade is good, you dont really need a 2nd damage item most of the time. About S3 jungle, junglers definitely get more gold than in S2. The early warding thing is annoying but is not that big of a deal.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 10 2013 08:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ghostblade is good, you dont really need a 2nd damage item most of the time. About S3 jungle, junglers definitely get more gold than in S2. The early warding thing is annoying but is not that big of a deal.
Going from shit to garbage doesn't imply much. Teh gold gain is le suckz0rzz
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I still dont understand why Riot thought the season 1 jungle was a problem.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2013 08:37 Two_DoWn wrote:
I still dont understand why Riot thought the season 1 jungle was a problem.
http://i.imgur.com/0xpla.png
Enjoy!
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Ya. Exactly. I dont get it. They are all stupid goals. The only thing I agree with is the strength of champs issue, but that is EASILY solved by adjusting champs to weaken lane presence but keep jungle presence.
Although that being said, Riot does have a shitty track record when it comes to being able to correctly analyze and change jungle champions for non jungle roles.
The changes really dont make sense when you go back and look at the games that resulted post-mastery pre-jungle remake.
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he has the right ideas just the execution was poor. People will obviously disagree but s1 jungle was the best jungle we've ever had in my opinion. Mained jungle back then and I never got into the season 2/season 3 jungle. You just feel like another support really.
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United States47024 Posts
It's also amusing how many of those goals that Riot eventually backpedaled on (jungle easier, allow laners to poach camps).
I think the thing Riot missed out on is how the farm/gank balance is dictated by a lot of things other than the design of the jungle itself. And so they did a lot of fiddling with how the jungle works without realizing that's not even necessarily the most effective way to address the issues they want to address.
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Revert a change that didn't accomplish its design goal? Blasphemy! Let's do something entirely different!
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EPT
