|
On January 10 2013 07:55 TheYango wrote:
I do agree people should be buying more pinks. I think people should be buying more pinks. Honestly, the ward spots everyone uses are so generic that they're always going to be high-efficacy.
I feel like I buy 5-6 times as many pink wards as a support now. At least. It's really funny to deward their sightstone wards and have them replace them, only for them to be wiped again. People are just like... "Huh? What do I do now?"
|
|
|
smite wasnt even taken because of the jungle creeps, but because of enemy counterjunglers, even back then.
laners farming jungle was a big mistake and they went out of their way to prevent them to do it.
easier camps and fast respawning jungle didnt makle it so that junglers had to choose, it just made it so that only AE clear junglers weere viable.
and they ended up to reducing kill xp and making wards widely available plus nerfing oracles because junglers actually chose the gank path he talks about, since junglers had to gank to keep up, as he wanted to.
so all in all, i would say this was a big gamedesign fail.
|
United States47024 Posts
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking."
|
One thing they saw as needing to be fixed, and which I agree was not a good design, is the problem of requiring specific runes when jungling. They fixed that in s2 by having almost no requirements to jungle, but then the lanes eating the camps turned out to be a Problem. So they reintroduced the idea of meeting a requirement to jungle, but they moved it into the items instead of runes. This is why machete exists.
|
machete also makes people go attackspeed runes 80% of the time, so ... 
|
On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking."
I think that's the biggest problem. I never understood at all what was so wrong with something like Jatt's Udyr in S1. I can see why as an individual case(Udyr being by far the fastest jungler at the time) it could require some tuning, but they completely changed it so that the lvl2 gank became the supreme(only) option, and then nerfed that too. Why is it so bad for a champ to farm the jungle and keep up if that's all he does?
I find it interesting that he talks about making the jungle a viable place to 'catch up' if behind, because that certainly isn't the case. How the fuck are you going to catch up from a weak position doing the exact same thing that doesn't keep pace with everything else, especially when you start to factor in counter jungling(which will only be worse, because you are behind).
I fucking loved s1 jungle, it was like the only thing I ever enjoyed playing besides AD(any lane, in fact I was always kind of sad that AD got forced bottom); I've never really had fun doing it since the initial changes, and it looks even worse now(only jungled once in preseason3 and it was a normal so w/e).
|
On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking."
Personally my favorite was #9. Trying to understand how that could work is like trying to solve the square root of negative one.
|
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble.
|
On January 10 2013 08:57 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:55 TheYango wrote:
I do agree people should be buying more pinks. I think people should be buying more pinks. Honestly, the ward spots everyone uses are so generic that they're always going to be high-efficacy. I feel like I buy 5-6 times as many pink wards as a support now. At least. It's really funny to deward their sightstone wards and have them replace them, only for them to be wiped again. People are just like... "Huh? What do I do now?"
i've played 3 games where this happened and i was sightstoning, and then with the last ward i placed i baited them into a fight when they went to de-ward.
perhaps you can use pink to see their wards but not de-ward it (as bly pointed out a while ago, you can use knowledge of wards against the opponent), and you can plan de-warding ganks. i'm thinking of crazy stuff like the jungler hiding in dragon pit waiting for support to de-ward and then all of a sudden Vi punches support in the face.
i'm also wondering when it'll be more cost-effective to forgo the pink ward and just buy oracle's. i hardly see any oracle's users and i don't think the nerf was THAT bad.
|
Can anyone tell me how Fizz plays in s3? Is he strong, mediocre?
|
On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking."
"And if you don't, we nerf irelia."
WHYYY SAINT, WHY.
|
On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble.
It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles, and at lower level play there's always the option of t1 runes which cost next to nothing. Why does it matter that it was slightly more important to prepare for the jungle?
If they really wanted to help the jungle at lower level play they could have removed the level requirement on rune slots (which is stupid anyway) without effecting how the Jungle functions at level 30.
|
United States37500 Posts
On January 10 2013 09:40 smOOthMayDie wrote:
Can anyone tell me how Fizz plays in s3? Is he strong, mediocre?
Love Fizz. He's underplayed. Obviously needs to be built around since he's a melee AP but he does very well in lane.
|
On January 10 2013 07:48 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:43 TheYango wrote:On January 10 2013 07:38 Requizen wrote:
I don't think S3 jungle sucks that much, but I don't theorycraft or crunch numbers nearly enough. I've had success with a number of champs and never really felt useless except that one time on Riven where I went Wriggle's/Mercs and did no damage. The biggest problem are the secondary issues of vision/vision denial in higher level play (Oracle's nerf, Flask/etc. allowing laners to have wards up from the beginning of the game, Sightstone reducing the effective cost of warding, etc.). The itemization/camp difficulty changes suck, but are manageable given the comparative smoothness of defensive/supportive itemization in the game's current state. This has been exemplified by the fairly low efficacy of jungler ganks in recent high-level games (see last night's G-League and OGN matches). Rather than us rabbling at Riot about it, is there ways to change play to make this better? Should junglers be carrying pink wards, or always save 400g for an Oracles and just hold it until they gank? Should top and mid get pink wards much like supports do and battle out vision that way? Or do you truly think that it's a design flaw, and that Riot actually needs to make changes regarding wards, sightstone, and Oracles? I don't know either way, but I'm always a little downtrodden when I hear people imply that there's 0 workaround for a problem, and I really don't think that it's something good players can't learn to deal with. Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:44 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:42 VayneAuthority wrote:On January 10 2013 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 10 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
How are AD carries weak again? They are still mandatory in every comp and do absurd damage with just a few big items. The only thing he is right about is the jungle remake being a complete fuck up and the aggro fuck up. Impossible to do anything now that every lane starts with infinite potions and infinite wards. No one is saying ADCs are weak. Their items just have been on the nerf train lately. It's the complaint that hits Double the hardest but also least convincing. "ADs have gotten destroyed. It was necessary but now it's gone over the top." "Essentially, I feel like ADs are much too easy to shut down in the current state of the game." If that doesn't mean he thinks AD carries are weak, I dont know what does. He also thinks everyone's trash. Hyperbole, wut? We don't like that term around here >.>
The problem is most players are too stupid to keep track of where wards are placed. Two wards can't properly ward a lane. Especially supports, who pretty much do nothing in lane, yet still can't manage to do it. A ward is gone from the enemy support, you can guess where it was placed, otherwise you'll see exactly where it was placed and its timer. The problem isn't positive knowledge on the enemy team, its negative knowledge on your team. Similar to how leashing grew from the jungle changes, players are going to have to grow into the new warding meta.
|
On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles
no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role.
|
On January 10 2013 09:15 UniversalSnip wrote:
One thing they saw as needing to be fixed, and which I agree was not a good design, is the problem of requiring specific runes when jungling. They fixed that in s2 by having almost no requirements to jungle, but then the lanes eating the camps turned out to be a Problem. So they reintroduced the idea of meeting a requirement to jungle, but they moved it into the items instead of runes. This is why machete exists.
Runes was never the issue S1. Masteries were. You needed level 9 to jungle because you needed the bonus exp mastery from utility.
Even back then armor runes were a luxury on quite a few jungles. WW, Udyr, Mumu could all clear with naked runes.
|
Mumu couldn't, I know because I tried many times. i forgot about those other two. fiddles also of course. it was a small pool though.
|
On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking."
I'd say you guys are twisting his words, that was just a sidenote saying that to stay on par with a solo laner you have to successfully gank. I don't see how that's contradicting with the fact that ganking is more of an option than before, it would be ridiculous to make junglers fully on par with laners just by farming camps all day. Those tweets may not be particularly eloquent but the intentions are pretty clear - making ganks a calculated risk as opposed to "got nothing else to do, better show up in a lane".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
