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On January 10 2013 10:11 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking." I'd say you guys are twisting his words, that was just a sidenote saying that to stay on par with a solo laner you have to successfully gank. I don't see how that's contradicting with the fact that ganking is more of an option than before, it would be ridiculous to make junglers fully on par with laners just by farming camps all day. Those tweets may not be particularly eloquent but the intentions are pretty clear - making ganks a calculated risk as opposed to "got nothing else to do, better show up in a lane".
You sound like you werent around for season 1. Not saying it is bad, but it does prevent you from quite understanding what happened.
Back in season 1, because of longer timings on respawns and higher gold amounts for those camps, ganks were actually MORE common because you were left with a good minute or so every cycle with which you had to make something happen. It separated the good junglers from the bad, because good ones would take map control, establish lane pressure, steal a camp, while bad ones would just sit back and wait.
The new jungle fucked it all up by making it so not only did you have to constantly farm camps in order to stay in the game gold wise, the penalty for a failed gank was MUCH higher than it ever was season 1. It had a drastic affect on how much control a jungler had simply because you were stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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On January 10 2013 10:15 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:11 Dan HH wrote:On January 10 2013 09:07 TheYango wrote:
I like how he simultaneously says that junglers should have to choose between ganking and farming, and at the same time says they should have to gank.
"You have to choose between farming and ganking. But we want you to choose ganking." I'd say you guys are twisting his words, that was just a sidenote saying that to stay on par with a solo laner you have to successfully gank. I don't see how that's contradicting with the fact that ganking is more of an option than before, it would be ridiculous to make junglers fully on par with laners just by farming camps all day. Those tweets may not be particularly eloquent but the intentions are pretty clear - making ganks a calculated risk as opposed to "got nothing else to do, better show up in a lane". You sound like you werent around for season 1. Not saying it is bad, but it does prevent you from quite understanding what happened. Back in season 1, because of longer timings on respawns and higher gold amounts for those camps, ganks were actually MORE common because you were left with a good minute or so every cycle with which you had to make something happen. It separated the good junglers from the bad, because good ones would take map control, establish lane pressure, steal a camp, while bad ones would just sit back and wait. The new jungle fucked it all up by making it so not only did you have to constantly farm camps in order to stay in the game gold wise, the penalty for a failed gank was MUCH higher than it ever was season 1. It had a drastic affect on how much control a jungler had simply because you were stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Hold your horses, I wasn't defending the changes or making any comment on the new jungle for that matter, simply explained why those tweets weren't contradictory in terms of intentions.
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On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role.
It's not a standard role at that level though. Plenty of low level games have 2-1-2 setups, and at lower levels 2-1-2 almost counters a jungler because players don't know how to deal with 1v2 lanes. Players that don't understand how to build to defeat jungle camps probably aren't playing at a level where having a jungler is essential.
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On January 10 2013 10:25 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role. It's not a standard role at that level though. Plenty of low level games have 2-1-2 setups, and at lower levels 2-1-2 almost counters a jungler because players don't know how to deal with 1v2 lanes. Players that don't understand how to build to defeat jungle camps probably aren't playing at a level where having a jungler is essential.
Yeah, exactly. The role is already a complete mystery to new players. Do you know I tried using fortify/smite on amumu when I was a s1 noob because it was the only way i could kill blue to start with? Once you know you CAN jungle it was a whole 'nother level figuring out how it was even possible, because it was completely opaque. Now you get into the game and the method is right there in your recommended items, and all the related mastery stuff is very low in the trees.
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On January 10 2013 10:25 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role. It's not a standard role at that level though. Plenty of low level games have 2-1-2 setups, and at lower levels 2-1-2 almost counters a jungler because players don't know how to deal with 1v2 lanes. Players that don't understand how to build to defeat jungle camps probably aren't playing at a level where having a jungler is essential.
Conversely, I found that in games where I solod top, and didn't feed (which I sometimes did) and just didn't let tower go, my team would have a huge advantage. Sucked that junglers kept coming top to gank into a 2v2 where the enemy team had more minions and a summoner though :/
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role.
Bear in mind that leashing wasn't figured out until the later part of S1, and getting the team to help on Wolves didn't trickle down into solo queue until almost the end of S1 (though Jatt, TOO, and Saint were doing it in tournament games earlier than that). Many of the rune dependent S1 junglers would have been much less so if these tricks had been known from the start.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2013 11:00 UniversalSnip wrote:
leashing was patched in
Yes I know. It was still a couple months before people realized you could do it.
EDIT: Leashing was added in Cassiopeia patch. It didn't become common practice to exploit it when jungling until around Nocturne patch, which was 3-4 months later. Certainly for most of S1, people were clearing level 1 blues without help.
Also note that even though leashing wasn't in until Cassio patch, that still didn't preclude the possibility of helping your jungler with their first camp. It's just that, well, nobody did.
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I would really like to see it if the jungle was such that if you just never left and were constantly clearing, you got as much or even more EXP/gold as a lane.
Right now it seems like there is a choice between jungling and ganking, but ganking is just blatantly the better choice. I don't think it's changed much since the S3 jungle, excepting that level 2 ganks are harder for a lot of junglers and wards are much more readily available. The jungler still has to be ganking successfully to keep up in levels with the laners.
It'd be really cool to me to see a Tryndamere or Yi or Kayle or something who jungles and just never leaves the jungle, clears for 30 minutes, and then starts teamfighting.
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If you can find a jungler with an incredibly slow clear speed, you can already do that.
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On January 10 2013 08:52 sylverfyre wrote:
Revert a change that didn't accomplish its design goal? Blasphemy! Let's do something entirely different!
But the thing is that Riot does need to do something different with the jungle: They need to add camps. And the camps need to be close to the inhib turrets. And there should be an efficient path between Wraiths/Wolves/Camp X/Camp Z.
That way there is a real choice between gank and farm, there is enough potential farm for it to be potentially worthwhile to farm, and all the farm can't be taken by laners.
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I all.
I am pretty sure if i will make a thread about my opinion on ranked games it will get locked so i will put it here to see how it goes.
I started playing ranked like 1 week ago (solo queue) and i have to say that it's a waste of time. In some cases you can avoid trollers about picking first and stuff like that, but all the time there are players who like to blame each other in every team.
I started like 5 wins in a row ( 14 loss streak atm ) and now i am 7:14 (current 984 elo) trying to play ADC or tank (i like both roles) and its impossible to win a game, maybe because i am stuck in something called "elo hell"?
This rating or the solo queue cant be used to define a player if is good or not, because this is a team game where you play with 4 other people who you dont know if he is good or not.
I guess i should play just normal because is not worth to keep loosing in my current rating?
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On January 10 2013 11:31 Maggost wrote:
I all.
I am pretty sure if i will make a thread about my opinion on ranked games it will get locked so i will put it here to see how it goes.
I started playing ranked like 1 week ago (solo queue) and i have to say that it's a waste of time. In some cases you can avoid trollers about picking first and stuff like that, but all the time there are players who like to blame each other in every team.
I started like 5 wins in a row and now i am 7:14 (current 984 elo) trying to play ADC or tank (i like both roles) and its impossible to win a game, maybe because i am stuck in something called "elo hell"?
This rating or the solo queue cant be used to define a player if is good or not, because this is a team game where you play with 4 other people who you dont know if he is good or not.
I guess i should play just normal because is not worth to keep loosing in my current rating?
Welcome! We have a thread for letting off steam
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220361
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On January 10 2013 10:42 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:25 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role. It's not a standard role at that level though. Plenty of low level games have 2-1-2 setups, and at lower levels 2-1-2 almost counters a jungler because players don't know how to deal with 1v2 lanes. Players that don't understand how to build to defeat jungle camps probably aren't playing at a level where having a jungler is essential. Yeah, exactly. The role is already a complete mystery to new players. Do you know I tried using fortify/smite on amumu when I was a s1 noob because it was the only way i could kill blue to start with? Once you know you CAN jungle it was a whole 'nother level figuring out how it was even possible, because it was completely opaque. Now you get into the game and the method is right there in your recommended items, and all the related mastery stuff is very low in the trees.
My point is the scale of the problem didn't warrant the scale of the response. Low level players players not being able to jungle shouldn't be cause to change the entire mechanics of what had evolved at an advanced level to be a huge part of the game. The real problem was that the power of lower level players is scaled down enormously, and really that's the part of the problem that should have been addressed.
Not to mention does it really matter if it takes some investigation to be able to contribute? Isn't that a big part about what we love about playing games, working out how to overcome challenges?
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Why is Navi jungling recently? Did they role swap or something? And who is Choo choo?
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Isn't it a rerun? I don't remember by heart yesterday's comps, but there was a Syndra game 2.
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United States37500 Posts
lol, dis Syndra is just wrecking Dan.
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On January 10 2013 11:35 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 10:42 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 10 2013 10:25 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 10:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 10 2013 09:48 Amarok wrote:On January 10 2013 09:30 UniversalSnip wrote:
ah, LaNague, you miss the point. certain runes are still like twice as good but you literally couldn't clear camps last season without runes on almost all junglers. Unless you wanted to play fiddle every game and have a sketchy start anyway you'd just start out so so so behind that even in a game below your level you might be in trouble. It was made out to be a much bigger deal than it was though. Requiring particular rune setups is not uncommon for other roles no? not even close. you're confusing requiring a rune setup to perform efficiently at a role and requiring a rune setup to even be able to play the role at all. Even if you just give newbies all the runes for free it's still a terrible setup because they have to go find out which ones to use from a third party site or a friend just to play a standard role. It's not a standard role at that level though. Plenty of low level games have 2-1-2 setups, and at lower levels 2-1-2 almost counters a jungler because players don't know how to deal with 1v2 lanes. Players that don't understand how to build to defeat jungle camps probably aren't playing at a level where having a jungler is essential. Yeah, exactly. The role is already a complete mystery to new players. Do you know I tried using fortify/smite on amumu when I was a s1 noob because it was the only way i could kill blue to start with? Once you know you CAN jungle it was a whole 'nother level figuring out how it was even possible, because it was completely opaque. Now you get into the game and the method is right there in your recommended items, and all the related mastery stuff is very low in the trees. My point is the scale of the problem didn't warrant the scale of the response. Low level players players not being able to jungle shouldn't be cause to change the entire mechanics of what had evolved at an advanced level to be a huge part of the game. The real problem was that the power of lower level players is scaled down enormously, and really that's the part of the problem that should have been addressed. Not to mention does it really matter if it takes some investigation to be able to contribute? Isn't that a big part about what we love about playing games, working out how to overcome challenges?
People overlook that league wasn't really an esport at that time. Sure there were tournies and things going on, but it was on a similar level to Quake Live at the time. It's pretty clear at the time these changes were made even Riot saw LoL as more of a casual game, so far behind the likes of Starcraft 2 and BW that it was never going to catch up. League grew off it's player base to the point it's at now where it really is the #1 esport in terms of playerbase (both casual and professional) and viewership, it wasn't really expected to happen. If the game was as popular as it is now I highly doubt you would have seen any effort to make the lives of the low levels easier.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 10 2013 11:50 HazMat wrote:
Why is Navi jungling recently? Did they role swap or something? And who is Choo choo?
PSA, Navi is jungler now. More Mid/Top players to choose from, than Junglers.
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EPT
