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On February 04 2012 22:51 Slayer91 wrote:
I disagree with udyr bear stance countering galio. You have to COMPLETELY fuck up your positioning to follow galio around and he just won't ult if you're right next to him. Galio without ult is more useful than udyr who in is bear, standing next to galio, but not actually DOING anything. The only time I tried this I ended up doing nothing in a teamfight, galio still got like 1 second off of ulti before I broke it and I took too much free damage.
EDIT: Staying close to your squishies as udyr is "completely fucking up your positioning" in my book, huehue.
I should expand upon this: If galio is all up in your grill looking to ult your team, it's your role to be in position to prevent their squishies on following up on it. You run in, stun one of them with shield up, if they stop to focus you run off to the side and you've bought 2-3 seconds when galio was ulting, if they walk past you, you get the beat on them and soften them up for your team to counter engage on them. Obviously you don't let galio zone your team//get them to attack him with bulwark up while you go in 1v4 rambo.
Here's another example: Their team was looking to do dragon, we come down from bluebuff and chase them off, we either start it or are about to start it. Their rammus rolls around me who was decently far in front trying to stun them before they got away. He gets a taunt off on the AD carry and ults with W up. Meanwhile I'm in between him and his team running back and forth in a line all like "come at me bro" for like seconds until finally their irelia player grabs his balls and dives in, their ap tries to follow up and then I just run in and smash their graves and we clean up the teamfight, rammus was basically dead by the time they were in any position to do anything. It felt an awful lot like this actually:
Skip to 0:35
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWW8Gb6UYYQ&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL7A7BDF56D4FAF844
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this is lane counters, not teamfight counters l0l
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Yeah I went off on a tangent because I really don't want to get people expecting me to stun galios that are ulting l0l.
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On February 05 2012 08:59 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 08:03 Dandel Ion wrote:On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad.
Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill.
Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain.
But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all. ziggs has a ranged attack animation and thus they are already very different different...? and vlad can dodge barrels? you dont trade with grag, you can just dodge his junk. if you keep good lateral movements while in mid you can dodge barrels - if gragas attempts to e you you can use your ranged creeps as a barrier of sorts. you can pool grag's ulti. these are all made with the assumptions that the players are good enough for this level of skill - likewise for dodging skillshots, if you are getting hitting from far range gragas barrels as vlad then of course you will lose trades. the highest likelihood of being hit by barrels should be after body slams or from relatively close range - if gragas attempts to go extremely aggressive with body slam at early levels, not only is he a huge target for a gank but vlad can gain creep advantage with his ranged autoattack and simply use his creeps to nullify most of the damage if not block gragas entirely from landing his e. likewise, if you assume that gragas will beat ADs based on landing his q, note that it is very easy to dodge / bait barrels if what you attempt is simply to barrel as they autoattack you - they can feint an autoattack and then go into a wayward direction afterwards.
Do you really think Grag laning consists of nothing but spamming Qs long/mid range and pray they hit?
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Morgana
+ Show Spoiler +Morgana is both hard to kill, and hard to prevent from farming. Her weaknesses in turn are long cds, high cost spells. and a lack of point'n'click.
Due to the "delayed" nature of her clearing (she needs to have the wave still 4 to 5 seconds, eventually adding some aas in), she is susceptible against champions capable of insta-clearing her wave, pushing theirs out of the AoE before it deals significant damage to the melee minions (the ranged might die as they'll walk across).
Gragas and Viktor are both fairly safe against ganks, Gragas thanks to his E, and Viktor to his W. Their clearing abilities are on shorter cooldowns and are more mana-efficient in Gragas' case.
Gragas has to watch his positioning before he reaches insta-clear status, as his melee range may put him into Tormented Soil's AoE at the same time as some of his minions, which Morgana may want. At 6, he can't really kill her because unless Morgana stays close to him she should have time to react if he ults. However, he should himself be able to use E and R, both on shorter cooldown than Morg's ult, to break her tether
Viktor has the advantage of his line-AoE : well cast, it can kill the whole wave even before it is stabilized, reducing the amount of damage Tormented Soil deals to them. If Morgana chooses to tank the minions left (counting on her passive to heal it up on the next wave, rinse-and-repeat) he can easily harass her with aas while staying safe from Dark Binding. His Q allows him to mitigate a bit of her damage on a lower cooldown and better mana-efficiency. However, contrary to Gragas he can't break out of Soul Shackles, lacking mobility. At most he can slow her with W if she isn't yet in range when he gets caught by Dark Binding, and try to outrun her.
Both also have positioning altering ultimates (forced for Gragas, enticed by Viktor as people don't want to eat the full dps) and AoE cc so they can mirror her threat post-laning.
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On February 05 2012 09:25 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 08:59 Navi wrote:On February 05 2012 08:03 Dandel Ion wrote:On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad.
Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill.
Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain.
But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all. ziggs has a ranged attack animation and thus they are already very different different...? and vlad can dodge barrels? you dont trade with grag, you can just dodge his junk. if you keep good lateral movements while in mid you can dodge barrels - if gragas attempts to e you you can use your ranged creeps as a barrier of sorts.you can pool grag's ulti. these are all made with the assumptions that the players are good enough for this level of skill - likewise for dodging skillshots, if you are getting hitting from far range gragas barrels as vlad then of course you will lose trades. the highest likelihood of being hit by barrels should be after body slams or from relatively close range - if gragas attempts to go extremely aggressive with body slam at early levels, not only is he a huge target for a gank but vlad can gain creep advantage with his ranged autoattack and simply use his creeps to nullify most of the damage if not block gragas entirely from landing his e.likewise, if you assume that gragas will beat ADs based on landing his q, note that it is very easy to dodge / bait barrels if what you attempt is simply to barrel as they autoattack you - they can feint an autoattack and then go into a wayward direction afterwards. Do you really think Grag laning consists of nothing but spamming Qs long/mid range and pray they hit?
bolded some parts for you
i feel this lane is in vlad's favor if he plays correctly. there is obviously room for error on both sides (for instance, if vlad does not have enough creeps to block grag, grag can go for E -> Q trades which will come out in his favor until he can flash for a kill) but this is optimal playstyle discussion.
there are a couple of problems grag faces vs a competent vlad
1. ranged autoattack harassment and lane control
the ability to autoattack creeps freely from a distance while gragas cannot unless he wants to be harassed by autos/Qs allows vlad to control the lane as he pleases
2. a skillshot nuke with slow travel time versus a point and click
this should be self explanatory, the problem with this is that if the vlad has a decent reaction time that gragas should have difficulty even landing 600 range q's. he has several options - he can bait Q counterharass when he goes into range to Q himself and then move diagonally in a retreat to avoid any chance of getting hit, or continue forward or in the complete opposite diagonal if gragas seems to expect such a method of retreat. there are mindgames involved and this is where relative skill level comes in but a good vlad should not get hit by these Qs.
3. Inability to commit and difficulty landing E's
due to Vlad's pool, if gragas is low and yet wants to seal a kill on a equally low vlad, he cannot flash -> e for fear of pool retribution. in general, he should have difficulty landing his E against a vlad who keeps him low through harass and a tight reign on the creepwave.
4. Mana
self explanatory, even with flat mregen yellows and meditation he will not be able to keep up with vlad's harassment entirely without a few drings or blue
if you are on the NA server i invite u to test this out with me. i have played gragas at ELOs ranging from 1200 to 2000 and while i have won against plenty of bad vlads i have never won in the early laning phase against a competent vlad.
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On February 04 2012 15:23 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote:
I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all.
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another. Gonna have to agree with Mr. Craton here. If this thread is meant as a detailed, paragraphed based counter pick list, it is only fitting for 1v1s. In reality, Bot lane as well as Jungle, there are simply too many variables to account for. You could have team fight counter picks too (e.g. Udyr's Bear Stance is pretty rough for a Galio who tries to ulti) but I wouldn't suggest it. Keep the scope of this thread narrow and things make much more sense. It should revolve largely around laning phase.
this is from awhile back, but I'm really ok with this. I put in some cursory 2v2 bot sort of thoughts, but in reality, there are so many combinations and so many variables it's a really large challenge to qualify whether a support can actually really be a counter to another support. I think it would be a better idea to leave it to the 'support' or mybe some other thread so that it's easier to get into the nitty gritty of who 'has an edge' instead of who 'is a counter'
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Cho’Gath: (Top)
+ Show Spoiler +Cho’Gath is also a notable champion with very few counters with correct runes and masteries. His sustain and consistent damage make it very difficult to trade with Cho’Gath unless the Cho in question is very bad at lasthitting or is pressured early on so that he cannot come back into lasthitting range (early jungler ganks, etc.). He also has great flexibility in itemization, especially defensive items, and as such can utilize this along with the free HP granted from his ultimate to become immovable in lane. The vast majority of top lane champions thus cannot win straight up against a smart Cho player.
Most typical “AD bruisers” are not an exception to this against a Cho with a 25 + armor setup. However, a few can feel very comfortable trading farm with Cho’Gath. Irelia, Riven, and Tryndamere all can trade farm with Cho’Gath (Riven and Tryndamere have methods of escaping his combo with good reaction time, and Irelia has a situational dash / high sustain as well) and come out ahead in the lategame – although they may feel weak in the first dragon fight if Cho’Gath chooses to take teleport and teleports there, as his AoE cc and true damage burst tends to contribute more to early fights.
Gangplank can simply zone Cho'Gath from level 1, as Cho needs to stay reasonably close to CS - his sustain is entirely dependent on lasthitting, and GP can deal great damage from level 1 and put Cho in a situation where he cannot autoattack for lasthits, as the slow and DoT are impossible for Cho to match at early levels.
i cant believe i forgot the plank 
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OP UPDATED
It's kinda hard because the Morgana contributor says he's countered by Gragas, whereas the Gragas contributor says he's countered by Morg ç_ç
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Is that not an example of a lane matchup that relies more on skill than that of a certain champ having a skillset that completely shuts down another champion? Don't want to argue Grag vs Morg but isn't that a fair indicator?
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Kassadin gets countered hard by ad carries. You don't have to sit an ap mid every game, and if the other team picks kassadin you can sit caitlyn mid and he shouldn't be able to reach 20 cs for a long time and you'll get a huge lead early on. That's one of the reasons I think kassadin is highly overrated.
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Really great thread and discussion, thanks.
Quick note - you've accidentally put Cassi inside Brand's spoiler
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I think that's because we have different views on what is needed to "counter" a champ : apparently Navi said Morg counters Gragas because Black Shield negates his ult displacement and turns the lane into a farmfest where Gragas can't get kills. Whereas I say Gragas counters Morg because he can instaclear and prevent her from afk pool-farming, while escaping her ultimate and retaining his own ability to instaclear then roam.
Also, Navi has substantially better understanding of the game than myself and has an higher Elo, which means he plays with/against better Gragas/Morgana than I do (lots of bad Morgs at low level, even when people claim she's simple), so when in doubt, stick with him. 
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Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill.
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On February 04 2012 11:28 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:Here's one. Solo top Riven+ Show Spoiler +General information:
Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain.
2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak.
3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven:
-Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer.
-Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output.
-Buy ninja tabi. Always.
-Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good.
-If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond. Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her. Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means. Lee: Lol i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol
The conclusions are from my own experience. However, I actually learned yesterday that the Riven vs GP dynamic is more like you describe than what I did. If Riven plays supremely defensive early on, she can win later on.
Udyr getting destroyed by Riven with BF / BT I kind of don't think is correct, however I must test it out against a good Udyr. I hope I'm wrong and learn something. I also agree Riven scales better, but the post is only about the laning phase.
Riven beats Nasus really early, but if Riven starts trading she automatically pushes the lane. Also fear of the enemy jungler makes it hard to commit hard enough early enough to make a difference. Exactly as you described with Riven vs GP, Nasus can forfeit the early creeps and farm at tower.
You also don't think Lee is strong vs Riven? Could you tell me why you think it is so? Lee is a lot worse late game, but this is about the laning phase. I think his build in sustain and E allow him to be effective against Riven, though it most definitely is not a hard counter.
Could you elaborate on any other weird conclusions you got from me? It's hard to find good sources of information about these matters. Who do you think counters Riven?
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On February 05 2012 21:40 Yttrasil wrote:
Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill.
After I finish 5's we should 1v1, will be good to test against an experienced rumble player. Nasus has more sustain than most tops, and most tops can't 1v1 rumble early levels anyway, so I don't see why you think he'd do worse than other tops.
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Singed solo top
+ Show Spoiler [Vladimir] +
Vladimir is extremely good against Singed. Vlad can harass and last hit with auto attacks while saving every transfuse cooldown for hitting Singed. Singed has no ranged abilities and Vlad can pool his fling pre-emptively or pool to remove the adhesive slow. This means that the only way for Singed to catch Vlad is by using summoner spells, if Vlad plays smart, while Vladimir can harass singed freely whenever he tries to last hit.
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On February 05 2012 22:35 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 21:40 Yttrasil wrote:
Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill. After I finish 5's we should 1v1, will be good to test against an experienced rumble player. Nasus has more sustain than most tops, and most tops can't 1v1 rumble early levels anyway, so I don't see why you think he'd do worse than other tops.
It's a good argument and I look forward to it. Never thought it was you either tbh, who wrote that so puts more weight into it. However, many people use the same argument with, Cho, Udyr and also partly Singed. The sustain is almost high enough but the damage Rumble can put out at lvl 4+ is just a tad too much for them to be able to stay and compete from what i've seen. They can do ok in some cases with ganks and such, but most often they lose. Ultimately, while Rumble might not always crush them or go even I'd not call them or Nasus a counter to Rumble.
Can't wait to try it out though =)
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I got first blood in the 1v1 we played but he did push down my tower first and had about 10 cs ahead. (though i had gay ping spikes so I missed some).
I still stand by my opinion, although yttdrasil was by far the best rumble I faced. Basically the better the rumble the more I have to wait to kill them. (I had to be like level 12-13 I think).
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Dude, it was even I agree, but seriously that FB I'd not count as I knew I'd die there. We were chatting and all my summoners was down etc I'm not that stupid =) Especially as you grew stronger and stronger with time and lvl 12+ you are stronger 1v1 than me. Just went in since it would basically be 100% farming from that time on and then I'd lose as it reached lvl 16 or such since Nasus is a beast by then. But lets face it, a top tower doesn't stand longer than to around lvl 14 at best. Still you did great for Nasus and I wasn't countered nor did I crush you as badly as I thought I would.
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EPT
