|
On August 07 2012 11:31 Sufficiency wrote:
Galio's best counter is Vladimir (as far as AP are concerned). Vladimir outsustains Galio and his harass is targetted, not a skillshot
Not really. Galio doesn't win lanes through his sustain, he wins it because he builds a shitton of Magic resistance and pushes like mad. Of course, there is a little sustain, but simply outsustaining Galio doesn't mean Vlad is a counter. The Harass being targeted or not has no effect on Galio, he isn't extremely mobile in the first place so skillshot or not doesn't really matter.
At best, Vladimir vs Galio is a farm lane.
If you absolutely must pick an AP to lane against Galio, Pick someone that doesn't rely on DoTs, someone that can clear fast, and preferrably someone that can escape Galio's ultimate.
|
As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long.
- Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake.
- Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit.
- Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team.
- Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers.
- Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit.
- Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour.
- Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance.
|
'If he can dodge your skill shots'
You could say that about every mid vs a champ with skillshots...
|
On August 07 2012 17:58 LionsFist wrote:
As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long.
- Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake.
- Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit.
- Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team.
- Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers.
- Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit.
- Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour.
- Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance.
Against Fizz and Leblanc you can just shove the lane and there's nothing they can do. They have to get jungler help to even get in position to 1shot you, so they are not directly a hard counter.
Morde is definetly NOT a counter. Zyra is stupidly good vs Morde.
I've had the most sucesses against Zyra with Veigar, so he's currently my go-to vs her.
|
Wait, Zyra can't punish Kassadin at levels 1-3? She has a 575 AUTO ATTACK RANGE. That's all you need to punish Kassadin. Run some AD runes if you're feeling like it.
|
^AD pages are really good for certain match-ups mid. Picked Swain after they picked Fizz, used my AD runes and 9/12/9 masteries (indomitable op), makes it a very easy lane.
|
Swain is even better at the "autoattack punish" because he can toss in his E to damage amp his autos.
|
Talon is probably the strongest counter to Anivia, and a strong counter to Zyra. Both champions have skill-shot and positional area affect abilities. This makes them inherently weak to champions with strong gap closing abilities, who can easily dodge their spells while jumping on the target and not letting up.
Before level 6, Anivia can do nothing to Talon. He can take Cutthroat (E) at level 2 to easily avoid her combo. At 3 he shuts her down completely. Anivia can't cast Flashfrost (Q) without immediately suffering a full combo from Talon with no trade in damage. This leaves Talon free to safely poke her off the lane with Rake (W) and free farm.
Talon can employ the similar strategies to Zyra, forcing her to play defensively with her plants (literally putting them on top of her). If she places a single seed away from her position, Talon can jump in and trade favourably. She cannot use her combo offensively because it is too easy for Talon to dodge the whole thing and jump on her again.
|
I feel like Jax/Panth just straight destrroy Kayle solotop. Panth can just autoattack until he gets shield up and pounce and more effectively trade with w/e Kayle has, while Jax can do something very similiar.
It just feels impossible to win vs Jax/Panth.
|
On August 08 2012 23:53 Shouoken wrote:
Talon is probably the strongest counter to Anivia, and a strong counter to Zyra. Both champions have skill-shot and positional area affect abilities. This makes them inherently weak to champions with strong gap closing abilities, who can easily dodge their spells while jumping on the target and not letting up.
Before level 6, Anivia can do nothing to Talon. He can take Cutthroat (E) at level 2 to easily avoid her combo. At 3 he shuts her down completely. Anivia can't cast Flashfrost (Q) without immediately suffering a full combo from Talon with no trade in damage. This leaves Talon free to safely poke her off the lane with Rake (W) and free farm.
Talon can employ the similar strategies to Zyra, forcing her to play defensively with her plants (literally putting them on top of her). If she places a single seed away from her position, Talon can jump in and trade favourably. She cannot use her combo offensively because it is too easy for Talon to dodge the whole thing and jump on her again.
I dunno, I feel like talon has issues if Anivia pretends Talon is Kassadin, running AD runes and autoattack harassing whenever Talon tries to CS without W. If Talon resorts to wave pushing to pick up CS, anivia isn't being threatened nearly as much by Talon and anivia doesn't mind being pushed up on pre-6 - you're not going to kill anivia with egg pre-6 under her own turret, especially with a melee champ. Post-6, if you're not already in range to silence Anivia when she starts her ulti, you aren't going to get to throw anything at her to mess her up, and if you try she can hit you with RE or if you try to walk towards her to get in jump range, it's easy to walk right into a Q.
Toss in the fact that anivia doesn't care what items she builds as her core. A glacial shroud will make talon MISERABLE while still being a perfectly fine item for Anivia. I just don't think it's as good of a counterpick as you say it is.
|
On August 09 2012 00:17 sung_moon wrote:
I feel like Jax/Panth just straight destrroy Kayle solotop. Panth can just autoattack until he gets shield up and pounce and more effectively trade with w/e Kayle has, while Jax can do something very similiar.
It just feels impossible to win vs Jax/Panth.
Yep. Cost of doing business imo, considering how hard she destroys most other tops. Plus, you can win vs. Jax if you out play them.
|
On August 07 2012 17:58 LionsFist wrote:
As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long.
- Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake.
- Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit.
- Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team.
- Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers.
- Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit.
- Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour.
- Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance.
Eh, from my experiences Zyra crushes Kassadin and Leblanc, and laning about Fizz is very doable. Against Kassadin and Leblanc you just shove the lane into their face which is incredibly easy to do with Zyra with QW which not only pushes the lane like mad but also zones the opponent because of its attack prioritization. I really don't understand how you think Kassadin "can't be punished between 1-3" when you can punish him like crazy with pretty much every aspect of your kit. Leblanc is pretty much the same. Against Fizz you play similarly except he actually has the capability to punish you for mispositioning a lot earlier than Kassadin and Leblanc, but he also can't stop you from just pushing the lane. Then after a doran or two you build negatron -> abyssal and merc treads if necessary against Kassadin/Leblanc.
Haven't played the other matchups.
|
Hello TL,
I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him.
|
On November 13 2012 12:26 jaybrundage wrote:
Hello TL,
I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him.
Taric lane usually involves him wanting to E -> walk onto you -> (R/) W. A support that can kite him (something like Janna or Lulu) works really well because they can slow the Taric. So long as you can survive his laning phase, Taric's teamfight is mediocre.
|
Just a throw-out, some freebie counters that are generally accepted:
Cho'Gath vs Yorick: Pretty simple. Cho's passive is triggered by killing the ghouls. Anytime Yorick tries to sustain, its letting Cho sustain more. That said, Cho has mana sustain, so his harassment is much stronger than Yorick's. Combine that with a slow and a silence, Cho'Gath can't lose to Yorick even if he tried.
|
I think that you should add gragas as a major counter pick to karthus. Playing both of these champions I laugh when I see a karthus pick. from level 4 onwards you will completely dominate this lane unless the enemy karthus is much much more skilled than you.
Also as long as cassio doesn't get too far ahead (due to a dc or idk what) I don't feel that she hard counters gragas in anyway, just play better than her and wait for lvl 4 to have your W(dmg reduction)=>body slam (dmg + slow obviously)=> Q combo and you should out damage; This lane is ussually won by the better player in my opinion...
I'm commenting assuming that the OP is up to date, it's very late and I'm lazy ^^;:
|
i think its pretty even, after nerfs karthus is a better mid
|
On November 13 2012 12:32 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:26 jaybrundage wrote:
Hello TL,
I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him. Taric lane usually involves him wanting to E -> walk onto you -> (R/) W. A support that can kite him (something like Janna or Lulu) works really well because they can slow the Taric. So long as you can survive his laning phase, Taric's teamfight is mediocre.
In my experience, Zyra works incredibly well against Taric. Strong, long ranged harass, good bush control, a root to control when fights happen and a stronger level 6 then Taric lets you usually win the lane.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
