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So, here was my first shot at counter picking : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287791
Now, I'd like to go more in specific champion counter-picking. I'd like to have kind of a database (with GOOD EXPLANATIONS on the match up) of counter picks, because I think that would help me understand the game better and the forces and weaknesses of every character. As usual, I'm talking about lane counters, teamfights counters being a completly different problem.
- THE LIST -
Akali (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Lee Sin, Riven] +Riven beats her at all stages of the lane. Akali's damage is insignificant as compared to riven at level 1 and beyond, Q- only harass by Akali can be negated by Riven's shield, her post 6 mobility is matched by Riven, and she can be AoE'd under shroud by Riven as well. Don't pick her into this matchup. If you have, open cloth 5pot and try to salvage what cs you can, or go all-in and ask for extremely early jungle ganks in the hope that you can kill her early (if so, the lane can become playable with a level or two of advantage).
Lee Sin's e, if hit, can cause Akali's shroud to be of limited effectiveness in escaping harass and creep aggro as well as in juking. Akali can use the invis period before the destealth when leaving the shroud, in combination with placing the shroud next to bushes, in order to dodge his e. With a cloth 5 pot opening the lane is sustainable for Akali, although ganks may be needed.
Alistar (support) + Show Spoiler [Janna] +Janna is the queen of kiting. Alistar (in lane anyways) has some issues with getting close to people, esp if flash is down. He's also highly burst-reliant, and well-timed shields can negate a ton of his damage. Oftentimes, on either side of the matchup, I find the opportunites to really commit on either person as Alistar to be halved if Janna is paying attention. + Show Spoiler [Vayne] +I'm a little bit hesitant to call vayne a 'counter' to alistar, but good condemns are again, really good at keeping cow away. True dmg also more/less negates his ult.
Anivia (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Cassio, Viktor] +Anivia struggles against casters who have long range spells not blocked by creeps that can double as harass and AoE clears pre 6, as lasthitting underneath tower with her is difficult, and she has trouble managing long range trades with her q+e combo. Her counterharass against shorter range spells is significantly stronger as the chance of landing her q goes up significantly with shorter distance between her target and herself. If these casters also have a good autoattack animation and the ability to kill her when egged, these matchups can be disastrous for Anivia without proper team aid. Some examples of such difficult opponents include Cassiopeia and Viktor. These lanes become extremely troublesome when disadvantaged, as they can harass Anivia when she comes close enough to ult and clear the wave, while being able to counterpush against Anivia as well. Take care not to die early against these lanes, requesting jungler aid as needed.
Annie (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Zilean, Xerath, Galio] +Given the nature of Annie's kit, she usually either onesidedly wins lanes or loses them in straight up 1v1s. Her kit in lane is essentially 3 damage spells, one with a mana reset (helpful in trades and to build up her passive stacks). The ranges on her q and w, 625, is decidedly average for a caster. They are not short enough for most AP champions to be able to spell-harass her without fear of retribution if she opens boots and run towards the enemy champion as she is targetted. However, one champion with such a kit is Zilean. With a 85 range advantage on his main damage and a speed boost as needed, he is able to harass Annie without fear whenever she goes for a q lasthit. Thus Annie is forced to save her q's to counterharass Zilean, and lose to the superior damage of Zilean's double bomb at 3 and 5 (in the time it takes Zilean to double bomb her, she can only get her q off reliably if Zilean starts walking backwards inbetween cast animations), or risk missing her w due to Zilean speed boost or quick movement from Zilean. Annie's options in this matchup are to either recieve superior jungler support (she has an advantage over most AP mids in that she has a fairly long range point and click stun to set up ganks, so losing lanes can be turned around by jungler ganks) or to go all in with ignite at early levels and hope for a misplay or for the enemy to be harassed to the point that the all in will work. The former is a more reliable option.
While Zilean is the most binary counter to Annie, other casters with long range harass that can reliably land are also very powerful against her. Xerath has similar laning function to Annie (harass / trade into conditional stun and ignite kill) but has superior range on his primary harass. Cassiopeia has superior range with her q, but her real threat to Annie is Annie's inability to trade efficiently with Cassiopeia when she has been poisoned and her stun is not up. This usually results in Annie getting harassed low enough to the point where she cannot reliably build q charges. One less direct but similarly powerful counter is to pick a sustainable laner who has very powerful clearing abilities, forcing Annie to play on the back hand while they are able to take jungle camps / objectives / gank, while being unmovable in lane when they are present. Such laners include Cho'Gath and Galio, whom when runed properly can both sustain themselves and punish Annie for overt harass. The possibilities for Annie to deal with these softer counters are the same as with Zilean, jungler support and setup with stun comboes and all-ins. All-ins tend to be more successful against skillshot champions, as their harass is avoidable through skill and juking, and thus more favorable situations are more easily created than against Zilean's point and click harass.
When Annie hits 6 and beyond, she gains incredible kill potential that makes her deadly if her opponent does not have a big level advantage. If she is allowed to build damage and stun charges on the enemy, she will always have a huge burst threat at and beyond this point. If you are able to survive beyond this point against non Cho/Galio counterpicks, you should have a shot at instagibbing them (especially with jungler aid).
Ashe (duo lane as carry) + Show Spoiler +Reserved for when I play her post patch.
Brand (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Xerath, Morgana, Galio, Karthus] +Brand’s strength in lane depends upon landing his W. After the range nerf to his E, it has become more difficult for Brand players to make efficient long range poke / poke trades with E in the combo. Should you find yourself laning versus Brand, you will want to open boots the vast majority of the time, as if you can reliably dodge his W’s, you can come out of laning unscathed if your goal is to outfarm and outscale him, or out-trade him if your goal is to kill him in lane. While he does have the kit to clear creeps, if he does not have access to blue (killed with blue, blue stolen, enemy jungler has their blue, etc.) he cannot keep up clear speeds mid as compared to other fast and more mana efficient lane clearers. Cassiopeia (solo lane)+ Show Spoiler [Galio] +Cassiopeia as of right now has very little trouble in most 1v1 lanes. Her ability to poke with low cd and mana cost (Q) and her ability to commit to trades with little fear of losing due to the reset mechanic on her e make her a fearsome opponent in lane. The movement speed duration buff, combined with the range increase buff on her E, essentially guarantees that she can hit an E after she lands a Q, excepting very large movement speed differences.
A notable counterpick is Galio. His bulwark essentially mitigates or even heals off of a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DoT damage (Cass W + Q) and reduces a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DPS from her E. Even when his bulwark is on cooldown, his Q has enough range (and a slow active) as to prevent consistent harassment. Overall, with smart bulwark and teleport usage, Galio should never be in danger of dying, and can force backs from Cassiopeia before she obtains a revolver or some other form of sustain in lane. He clears with higher mana efficiency and speed, and can thus exert pressure on wraiths and other lanes with greater ease. Thus, smart picks against Brand include Xerath (huge range advantage over Brand, more reliable poke, movespeed steroid on w if siege-ing onto Brand and he approaches you, stronger and more reliable burst at 6), Morgana and Galio (for mana efficient lane clearing and some form of protection from his burst and poke as needed), Karthus (Brand has difficulty approaching a cautious Karthus due to wall. If Karthus takes care to not get hit by Brand’s skillshots, he can easily farm his lane to the point where he has greater map presence and lane clearing ability than Brand), Cassiopeia (she has greater range on her q, a variety of slows / speeds which are useful in skillshot battles, and if she avoids Brand’s stun, can win any head on engagement with ease), Mordekaiser (with proper regen and mres, Morde can essentially ignore any harass from Brand while pushing with extreme efficiency and landing incidental harassment with E from very early on. 12 health pot openings are the best huehuehue).
Cho’Gath (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [GP] +Cho’Gath is also a notable champion with very few counters with correct runes and masteries. His sustain and consistent damage make it very difficult to trade with Cho’Gath unless the Cho in question is very bad at lasthitting or is pressured early on so that he cannot come back into lasthitting range (early jungler ganks, etc.). He also has great flexibility in itemization, especially defensive items, and as such can utilize this along with the free HP granted from his ultimate to become immovable in lane. The vast majority of top lane champions thus cannot win straight up against a smart Cho player.
Most typical “AD bruisers” are not an exception to this against a Cho with a 25 + armor setup. However, a few can feel very comfortable trading farm with Cho’Gath. Irelia, Riven, and Tryndamere all can trade farm with Cho’Gath (Riven and Tryndamere have methods of escaping his combo with good reaction time, and Irelia has a situational dash / high sustain as well) and come out ahead in the lategame – although they may feel weak in the first dragon fight if Cho’Gath chooses to take teleport and teleports there, as his AoE cc and true damage burst tends to contribute more to early fights.
Gangplank can simply zone Cho'Gath from level 1, as Cho needs to stay reasonably close to CS - his sustain is entirely dependent on lasthitting, and GP can deal great damage from level 1 and put Cho in a situation where he cannot autoattack for lasthits.
Corki (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Cassio, Anivia] +While Corki is typically played bottom in today’s League of Legends, he was once one of the greatest mid lane dominators. His clearing ability and strong poke make him a viable solo in double AD and various AoE comps.
Corki excels against those whom he can utilize his strong autoattack and q against – thus melee casters such as Kassadin and Gragas can often struggle against Corki in lane. On the other hand, laners with a strong form of counterharass can be played against Corki with success – Cassiopeia does not fear Corki’s harass because if she lands a q she can come ahead drastically. Also, valkyrie-ing onto Cassiopeia post 6 is suicide for Corki, as her ult will destroy any ability to trade. Corki should have cleanse and a very, very large health difference if he wishes to attempt something of the sort.
A less hard counter but notable pick against Corki is Anivia – her autoattack range is sufficiently long that she can lasthit effectively, and if Corki makes it clear that he wishes to harass her, she can aim for a Q + E if his path of travel is readable. Her clear efficiency with blue exceeds that of Corki’s, and she has harder scaling in the right team composition.
Galio (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Udyr, Garen, Lee] +To understand what can counter Galio, we must first look at his strengths.
1. Galio’s ability to straight up trade most APs, especially those with DoT effects, is second to none when his bulwark is activated. The additional Armor / MR alone would be sufficient to make trades even or in his favor, but the heal combined with this makes him actually heal from weak DoT effects.
2. His relatively low mana costs, along with his ability to buy many mana regen items (Catalyst, Chalice, Philo Stone: try not to get Chalice and Catalyst together if possible) that are useful for him make him a very efficient clearer when he can insta-clear waves and harasser at all levels.
3. The slow / speed on his Q + E also make him a choice chaser when the enemy is low, as well as giving him the ability to peel for himself and reducing the effectiveness of skillshot users.
4. Lastly, his passive: this passive allows Galio to build MR / items such as chalice while gaining damage at the same time, increasing the effectiveness of such builds while drastically reducing AP damage even further.
These factors combined make Galio a monster laning versus most APs. Even basic AD champions can have trouble to Galio due to his incidental harass being more powerful than their autoattacks. However, there are a few picks that either beat his strengths in efficiency or completely counter his kit.
Udyr's Tiger Stance has a strange interaction with Galio: Galio’s bulwark should be great against its DoT, and it is magic damage as well. However, with his stun and the ability to bait bulwarks by simply walking near Galio and walking away again, Udyr can comfortably use his tiger to harass or to bait mana usage from Galio. Should he use it with Galio, he will come out ahead in terms of mana used as well.
Galio’s incidental harass with Q+E in clearing is less effective versus Udyr due to Udyr’s turtle, which, again, is even more mana efficient than Galio’s combo while giving him mana / HP on every hit.
Galio’s ability to push is also negated by turtle. Should Galio begin to push on Udyr, Udyr can stagnate the lane by simply tanking creeps with turtle stance until the creepwaves meet outside of his tower, and be in a safe position to farm while zoning Galio from creeps with tiger / bear.
I recommend taking teleport as Udyr if you are vs. Galio, as a Galio with teleport may simply decide to back and walk to dragon if you are tanking creeps, which you can respond to with a teleport of your own kind if necessary, or you may just push to the tower if there is no need for a teleport – give yourself the option, as one won teamfight may change the pace of the game. You do not need ignite to heavily damage Galio either.
Udyr counters Galio in lane for dealing with Galio’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strengths (ability to bait bulwarks and punish when it is down with tiger, 1., beating him in mana efficiency, 2., and negating the slow / speed of Galio’s Q/E with stuns / bear as needed (again going back to mana efficiency as well), 3.). However, Galio still makes good use of his passive in this lane.
In looking at another type of counter to Galio, we see a type of hero that can not only punish Galio in 1., 2., and 3., but also reduce Galio’s usage of 4 such that his teamfighting presence is much weaker.
Garen and Lee Sin both have no mana, making 2. essentially a null point. Their instant application of damage (Garen is able to cancel his spin if Galio activates bulwark and he decides it is not worth using any longer) and kits (Garen’s silence and Lee Sin’s mobility / better slow) make it such that Galio’s slow and speed are difficult to use to avoid these due to mana constraint while making bulwark also less effective, as Garen and Lee do not have to commit greatly in exchanges, and have no mana constraints. Thus, 1., 2., and 3. are not of particular worth to Galio in these matchups.
In these matchups, Galio has 2 options. 1, he can build armor and barely survive / farm inefficiently in lane (with timely bulwark usage versus Garen, especially if Garen decides to flash Q when Galio is low and he is level 6, he can survive) or 2. he can die or get zoned (Garen and Lee’s kits are good for this in that they have a form of melee CC that they can use to prevent Galio from lasthitting from level 1 onwards). In foregoing MR to barely survive in lane (even with teleports to return to lane), Galio loses the great efficiency of his passive along with his effective immunity to magic at early fights.
Gangplank (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Riven, Udyr, Pantheon] + Gangplank is a versatile toplane in that he has a combination of ranged harass with his Q, a very effective slow, movespeed etc. steroid, and heal in lane. He is fine with farming at tower because he is able to exert pressure around the map with his ultimate, so most stalemate-ing lanes are favorable for him.
The biggest difference in his kit from most toplane bruisers is his ranged harassment capabilities.
The bruisers with an ability to negate or match, or do both, against GP tend to come out favorably against the plank.
Riven is sufficiently stronger midgame that if GP does not get a large advantage in lane, the lane is favorable for her. However, she can straight up win exchanges versus GP when she hits level 3 and has all of her skills. The most difficult period of time against GP is levels 1 (and after the w nerf, level 2) as she is unable to exchange harass efficiently and indeed can die to GP’s passive if she is not careful.
To remedy this, Riven can open E at level 1 and then continue with a normal skill order. With enough practice or reaction time, it is simple to E the majority of GP’s Q harassment. At level 1, your E will entirely shield the damage it deals with armor runes – making passive farming possible. After Riven hits level 3, she has the mobility to reach GP and to disengage as needed: her abilities will win on pure damage if GP is not allowed to amass passive stacks. Essentially, after being stunned, GP has two options: 1. Eat oranges and trade even damage but lose a lot of mana, or 2. Lose the trade. From here on out, if Riven does not die to a gank, she should have very little to no problem dealing with GP as long as she uses her shield to block damage.
Udyr: GP simply does no damage through Udyr’s turtle stance. Unlike Riven’s E which has a very short duration shield, Udyr’s turtle stance lasts for much longer. The passive HP / Mana regained per hit makes it such that if GP ever attempts to commit to an exchange, you can open with turtle whenever he sends a Q at your way, and then follow with tiger and pound on him and one-sidedly win the exchange. GP does not have a lot of options in this matchup, except for to ask for an early gank. Otherwise, an early death / teleport / tower down is almost inevitable. GP simply cannot trade, and against an Udyr who positions himself to damage you whenever you come near the creeps, you will find yourself zoned.
If you are playing as Udyr, note two things: open boots, as there is no need to open cloth to win exchanges with armor yellows; and you do not need to turn on tiger to deal damage when zoning GP, as you may run yourself OOM doing so.
Notable mention: Pantheon: If GP does not run a full armor setup, Pantheon can dominate this matchup. Even if he does, Pantheon noticeably has the lead in early levels – however, against a passive GP who opens cloth5pot and maxes W, Pantheon must overextend himself to keep pressure on GP from lasthitting properly, which is death against any coordinated jungler gank. However, against armor-less GPs who underestimate Pantheon’s strength, this is a notable counter, as like the other two, Pantheon’s passive largely negates the effectiveness of GP’s ranged harass, and can force favorable trades early on.
Gragas (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [~Cassio, Vlad, Irelia, Riven, Trynda,…] +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.
Karthus Mid + Show Spoiler +Kassadin destroys karthus, his teleport mobility allows him to completely avoid taking any damage from karthus's Q, aura and wall once he reaches level 6. Karthus Q spam will allow kassadin to constanty use his E, and the silence shuts down any counterattack. Kassadin can also jump in and silence karthus if he tries to channel his ult, even if he is far under tower. There is literally nothing karthus can do vs kassadin.
LeBlanc (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Early pushers - Sion] +LeBlanc is soft-countered by hard pushers (Cassio, Ahri, Morgana, Morde, etc.). If you don't manage to get ahead in the early-game you basically lose the game. One specific hard-counter for her is Sion, who not only is a hard pusher, but also gains health by pushing the lane, which negates the burst LeBlanc has. + Show Spoiler [Galio] +Galio is a very good lane counter to Leblanc. Galio's inherent tankyness and more incentive to build MR (because of his passive), Leblanc will be unable to kill him in lane, preventing her from snowballing unless she roams. Galio also is very good at pushing the lane, pushing Leblanc to her tower and forcing her to use spells on CSing or risking losing it to the tower.
Malzahar (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Xerath] +Xerath is an excellent counterpick to malz because his even more extensive range allows him to stay at safe range from all of malz's damaging spells, malzes Q, which outranges most other AP's considerably, is only encountered at maximum range and its delay makes it easily dodgeable. Xerath can also keep up with Malz's pushing easily and CS from far enough back to be safe from Malefic Visions The really brutal thing about Xerath vs Malz is the fact that Xeraths ult so heavily outclasses Malzahars. The only time you are ever likely to be within range of Malz's ult is when starting your full stun and Ult combo, and due to the quirk of delay in Xerath's ult hitting, if you hit it fast your ult will actually come down right after Malz starts his ult, stunning and interrupting it, at this point malz is pretty much screwed.
Morgana (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Gragas, Viktor, ADs] +Morgana is both hard to kill, and hard to prevent from farming. Her weaknesses in turn are long cds, high cost spells. and a lack of point'n'click. Due to the "delayed" nature of her clearing (she needs to have the wave still 4 to 5 seconds, eventually adding some aas in), she is susceptible against champions capable of insta-clearing her wave, pushing theirs out of the AoE before it deals significant damage to the melee minions (the ranged might die as they'll walk across).
Gragas and Viktor are both fairly safe against ganks, Gragas thanks to his E, and Viktor to his W. Their clearing abilities are on shorter cooldowns and are more mana-efficient in Gragas' case. Gragas has to watch his positioning before he reaches insta-clear status, as his melee range may put him into Tormented Soil's AoE at the same time as some of his minions, which Morgana may want. At 6, he can't really kill her because unless Morgana stays close to him she should have time to react if he ults. However, he should himself be able to use E and R, both on shorter cooldown than Morg's ult, to break her tether
Viktor has the advantage of his line-AoE : well cast, it can kill the whole wave even before it is stabilized, reducing the amount of damage Tormented Soil deals to them. If Morgana chooses to tank the minions left (counting on her passive to heal it up on the next wave, rinse-and-repeat) he can easily harass her with aas while staying safe from Dark Binding. His Q allows him to mitigate a bit of her damage on a lower cooldown and better mana-efficiency. However, contrary to Gragas he can't break out of Soul Shackles, lacking mobility. At most he can slow her with W if she isn't yet in range when he gets caught by Dark Binding, and try to outrun her.
Both also have positioning altering ultimates (forced for Gragas, enticed by Viktor as people don't want to eat the full dps) and AoE cc so they can mirror her threat post-laning.
Pantheon (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +Malphite + Cho'gath both fall under the same category because they largely screw with pantheon for the approx the same reasons. The primary reason is the fact that they can just straight up build armor and it doesn't affect their build at all, since they typically build said armor items anyways (i.e. frozen heart, GA, etc) and don't have to rush an early offensive item to be effective. Thus, they can very quickly out-armor pantheon for 0 opportunity cost.
In terms of actual laning specifics:For malphite, his temp shield is very frustrating for panth to deal with, since it operates largely the same as pantheon's own shield, except that it's even better vs spells, which is the primary form of lane interaction that pantheon has. He also cannot trade q + e combos as well with malphite, partially due to the shield, and partially due to the movespeed and attackspeed reductions that come with it. All in all, malph becomes a very frustrating champ to lane against as a pantheon.
For cho'gath, his healing passive makes it very difficult for pantheon's harass to have much of a long-term effect. Furthermore, he can actually trade autoattacks with pantheon early on due to vorpal spikes. Finally, cho is really effective at disrupting panth's HSS with both scream and knockup, and, because it disrupts HSS, it means that cho's q+e+auto combo will often outtrade pantheon's own q+w+e+q combo. + Show Spoiler [Yorick] +Yorick is a massive jackass in general and can really screw with pantheon in a lot of ways. First of all, his ghouls largely negate panth's passive, and panth's passive is actually a major factor dictating a lot of his vs. melee wins. Second of all, Yorick has a low CD, low mana cost, long range harass nuke that also has a significant amount of burst and sustained heal, all in one skill, (which is nuts in general). Post lvl 6, it is very difficult to commit vs yorick because he can basically just zerg you, and even if you do manage to kill him, he comes back and finishes you off anyways. The final nail in the coffin is that yorick completely out-maneuvers pantheon in terms of mobility. He is faster than pantheon (with q) and he can slow the shit out of panth (with w) for an extended period of time.
Rumble (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Nasus] + Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
Singed (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Ryze] +Against Singed toplane your best bet is to pick Ryze. You should harass and zone Singed very hard with auto-attacks whenever he moves in for a last-hit and starting with lvl3 also with frequent Qs. Since Singed relies on getting close to be obnoxious Ryze should always easily answer with a QWQ Combo. Ryze also scales very hard into later stages of the game, which will be easy reached due to the lack of harassment of Singed.
Taric (support) + Show Spoiler [Alistar] +Alistar will usually beat Taric in lane. Taric's only major advantage as a support is his engagement power in lane. His stun, armor buff, and armor debuff make it so that he wins every bottom lane engage, that is except against Alistar. Taric is unable to get his stun shatter combo against an Alistar because Alistar will just retaliate with pulverize headbutt. Any sort of stun engagement Taric does gets denied with headbutt. This stems from the fact that Alistar usually has trouble getting into melee range to land his combo, and Taric has to come close to combo him.
Urgot (duo lane as carry) + Show Spoiler [Taric] +Once urgot lands his bomb, pop a stun on him and he'll only be able to shoot maybe one dagger. With your armor buff, dagger damage is cut down drastically. Without lane bullying, Urgot isn't very strong overall. + Show Spoiler [Soraka] +Urgot's harass has no way of outdamaging Soraka's heal and armor buff. Once Urgot lands a bomb, silence him and heal as needed. Same reason as above, without Urgot being able to harass, he's much less a threat.
Vayne (duo lane as carry) + Show Spoiler [Ezreal] +Ezreal is basically SG's go-to counerpick bot lane vs vayne. His early up-front burst is phenomenal, and his attack-speed debuff really screws over vayne since A) it affects her silver bolts, and B) vayne's effective range is short enough and her movement predictable enough that it's actually fairly reasonable to consistenly hit w's + Show Spoiler [Urgot] +Urgot's primary weakness in bot lane is his lack of auto range (being 550, just like vayne), so the ordinary combo of shield-slow -> grenade -> q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q can be a bit more challenging vs champs with very high range/effective range like caitlyn. Vayne, on the other hand, has equally short auto range, has more predictable movement and since q's have monstrous range, if you hit the grenade, then it doesn't matter if vayne condemn's you away, which makes him very strong against her in lane. Sadly urgot isn't really popular so you don't see this too often. + Show Spoiler [Caitlyn] +Caitlyn has insane range and incredibly strong harass + traps none of which Vayne really has an answer to. Pretty straightforward.
Vladimir (solo lane) [spoiler=Cassio]Cassiopeia, with proper play, should destroy a vladimir in lane. Her longer range and ability to turn any trade into her favor with her E spam makes her perfect for taking advantage of vlad's early game weakness between levels 1-7, and taking command of the lane with her superior ability to trade, far longer range, and zone control with her w and q. An emphasis on proper play however. It is important to be able to make every trade count strongly in your favor when laning against vlad, because due to his sustain, it is nearly impossible to come back if he gets ahead of you.[/spoiler + Show Spoiler [Kassadin] +This on is pretty easy, Kassadin has a 650 range nuke/silence. Vlad's q is 600, and early on in lane, they are roughly equal in cooldown, so pre 6, it is well within reason for Kass to totally screw up any attempt for vlad to really do anything. it also helps that Kass has some extra mres for a passive.
Xerath (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Ahri] +Ahri ruins xerath's day hardcore, she has long range and good sustain which he lacks, a very pokey Q which can chunk him if he sieges up, but mostly it comes down to the ults. Xerath has 3 delayed skillshot nukes, Ahri has 3 dashes, its a very hard counter. If a Xerath lands his ult on you as Ahri you did something wrong. Just wait for him to start ulting then zip around and kill him while dodging it. Also ahri can hit Xerath with her heart while he is ulting to significantly delay the second and third procs.
Yorick (solo lane) + Show Spoiler [Nasus] + Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
So, I'll need help for a lot of champs I don't really know how to counter pick, and will keep the OP up to date as much as possible. Remember, the most detailed the match-up is, the best it is. This must take into account multiple possible builds and skill paths, as well as the dangerosity of applying the match up domination (typically LB is very safe in her positive match up, whereas Panth is kinda weak to jungle camping). I'll begin with the few that I know and can explain in depth like Ahri VS Xerath, Panth VS Trynda/GP, ... Counters should as well be listed per position, typically you can counter a few junglers, and a few chars can play in both solo and duo lanes (Kennen being the first example coming to mind).
Thank you very much for your help !
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well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point).
anyways
Pantheon:
+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +Malphite + Cho'gath both fall under the same category because they largely screw with pantheon for the approx the same reasons. The primary reason is the fact that they can just straight up build armor and it doesn't affect their build at all, since they typically build said armor items anyways (i.e. frozen heart, GA, etc) and don't have to rush an early offensive item to be effective. Thus, they can very quickly out-armor pantheon for 0 opportunity cost.
In terms of actual laning specifics:For malphite, his temp shield is very frustrating for panth to deal with, since it operates largely the same as pantheon's own shield, except that it's even better vs spells, which is the primary form of lane interaction that pantheon has. He also cannot trade q + e combos as well with malphite, partially due to the shield, and partially due to the movespeed and attackspeed reductions that come with it. All in all, malph becomes a very frustrating champ to lane against as a pantheon.
For cho'gath, his healing passive makes it very difficult for pantheon's harass to have much of a long-term effect. Furthermore, he can actually trade autoattacks with pantheon early on due to vorpal spikes. Finally, cho is really effective at disrupting panth's HSS with both scream and knockup, and, because it disrupts HSS, it means that cho's q+e+auto combo will often outtrade pantheon's own q+w+e+q combo.
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] +Yorick is a massive jackass in general and can really screw with pantheon in a lot of ways. First of all, his ghouls largely negate panth's passive, and panth's passive is actually a major factor dictating a lot of his vs. melee wins. Second of all, Yorick has a low CD, low mana cost, long range harass nuke that also has a significant amount of burst and sustained heal, all in one skill, (which is nuts in general). Post lvl 6, it is very difficult to commit vs yorick because he can basically just zerg you, and even if you do manage to kill him, he comes back and finishes you off anyways. The final nail in the coffin is that yorick completely out-maneuvers pantheon in terms of mobility. He is faster than pantheon (with q) and he can slow the shit out of panth (with w) for an extended period of time.
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Akali: (Top) + Show Spoiler +Riven beats her at all stages of the lane. Akali's damage is insignificant as compared to riven at level 1 and beyond, Q- only harass by Akali can be negated by Riven's shield, her post 6 mobility is matched by Riven, and she can be AoE'd under shroud by Riven as well. Don't pick her into this matchup. If you have, open cloth 5pot and try to salvage what cs you can, or go all-in and ask for extremely early jungle ganks in the hope that you can kill her early (if so, the lane can become playable with a level or two of advantage).
Lee Sin's e, if hit, can cause Akali's shroud to be of limited effectiveness in escaping harass and creep aggro as well as in juking. Akali can use the invis period before the destealth when leaving the shroud, in combination with placing the shroud next to bushes, in order to dodge his e. With a cloth 5 pot opening the lane is sustainable for Akali, although ganks may be needed.
Anivia: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +Anivia struggles against casters who have long range spells not blocked by creeps that can double as harass and AoE clears pre 6, as lasthitting underneath tower with her is difficult, and she has trouble managing long range trades with her q+e combo. Her counterharass against shorter range spells is significantly stronger as the chance of landing her q goes up significantly with shorter distance between her target and herself. If these casters also have a good autoattack animation and the ability to kill her when egged, these matchups can be disastrous for Anivia without proper team aid. Some examples of such difficult opponents include Cassiopeia and Viktor. These lanes become extremely troublesome when disadvantaged, as they can harass Anivia when she comes close enough to ult and clear the wave, while being able to counterpush against Anivia as well. Take care not to die early against these lanes, requesting jungler aid as needed.
Annie: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +Given the nature of Annie's kit, she usually either onesidedly wins lanes or loses them in straight up 1v1s. Her kit in lane is essentially 3 damage spells, one with a mana reset (helpful in trades and to build up her passive stacks). The ranges on her q and w, 625, is decidedly average for a caster. They are not short enough for most AP champions to be able to spell-harass her without fear of retribution if she opens boots and run towards the enemy champion as she is targetted. However, one champion with such a kit is Zilean. With a 85 range advantage on his main damage and a speed boost as needed, he is able to harass Annie without fear whenever she goes for a q lasthit. Thus Annie is forced to save her q's to counterharass Zilean, and lose to the superior damage of Zilean's double bomb at 3 and 5 (in the time it takes Zilean to double bomb her, she can only get her q off reliably if Zilean starts walking backwards inbetween cast animations), or risk missing her w due to Zilean speed boost or quick movement from Zilean. Annie's options in this matchup are to either recieve superior jungler support (she has an advantage over most AP mids in that she has a fairly long range point and click stun to set up ganks, so losing lanes can be turned around by jungler ganks) or to go all in with ignite at early levels and hope for a misplay or for the enemy to be harassed to the point that the all in will work. The former is a more reliable option.
While Zilean is the most binary counter to Annie, other casters with long range harass that can reliably land are also very powerful against her. Xerath has similar laning function to Annie (harass / trade into conditional stun and ignite kill) but has superior range on his primary harass. Cassiopeia has superior range with her q, but her real threat to Annie is Annie's inability to trade efficiently with Cassiopeia when she has been poisoned and her stun is not up. This usually results in Annie getting harassed low enough to the point where she cannot reliably build q charges. One less direct but similarly powerful counter is to pick a sustainable laner who has very powerful clearing abilities, forcing Annie to play on the back hand while they are able to take jungle camps / objectives / gank, while being unmovable in lane when they are present. Such laners include Cho'Gath and Galio, whom when runed properly can both sustain themselves and punish Annie for overt harass. The possibilities for Annie to deal with these softer counters are the same as with Zilean, jungler support and setup with stun comboes and all-ins. All-ins tend to be more successful against skillshot champions, as their harass is avoidable through skill and juking, and thus more favorable situations are more easily created than against Zilean's point and click harass.
When Annie hits 6 and beyond, she gains incredible kill potential that makes her deadly if her opponent does not have a big level advantage. If she is allowed to build damage and stun charges on the enemy, she will always have a huge burst threat at and beyond this point. If you are able to survive beyond this point against non Cho/Galio counterpicks, you should have a shot at instagibbing them (especially with jungler aid).
Ashe: (Mid / Top / Bottom) + Show Spoiler +Reserved for when I play her post patch.
I will do at least a letter a day's worth of champions!
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On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote:well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point). anyways Pantheon:+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +Malphite + Cho'gath both fall under the same category because they largely screw with pantheon for the approx the same reasons. The primary reason is the fact that they can just straight up build armor and it doesn't affect their build at all, since they typically build said armor items anyways (i.e. frozen heart, GA, etc) and don't have to rush an early offensive item to be effective. Thus, they can very quickly out-armor pantheon for 0 opportunity cost.
In terms of actual laning specifics:For malphite, his temp shield is very frustrating for panth to deal with, since it operates largely the same as pantheon's own shield, except that it's even better vs spells, which is the primary form of lane interaction that pantheon has. He also cannot trade q + e combos as well with malphite, partially due to the shield, and partially due to the movespeed and attackspeed reductions that come with it. All in all, malph becomes a very frustrating champ to lane against as a pantheon.
For cho'gath, his healing passive makes it very difficult for pantheon's harass to have much of a long-term effect. Furthermore, he can actually trade autoattacks with pantheon early on due to vorpal spikes. Finally, cho is really effective at disrupting panth's HSS with both scream and knockup, and, because it disrupts HSS, it means that cho's q+e+auto combo will often outtrade pantheon's own q+w+e+q combo. + Show Spoiler [Yorick] +Yorick is a massive jackass in general and can really screw with pantheon in a lot of ways. First of all, his ghouls largely negate panth's passive, and panth's passive is actually a major factor dictating a lot of his vs. melee wins. Second of all, Yorick has a low CD, low mana cost, long range harass nuke that also has a significant amount of burst and sustained heal, all in one skill, (which is nuts in general). Post lvl 6, it is very difficult to commit vs yorick because he can basically just zerg you, and even if you do manage to kill him, he comes back and finishes you off anyways. The final nail in the coffin is that yorick completely out-maneuvers pantheon in terms of mobility. He is faster than pantheon (with q) and he can slow the shit out of panth (with w) for an extended period of time.
"equal skill level" ~ a lot of this actually entails being able to change skill order / mastery / playstyle as needed against certain lanes. obviously there are the mechanics of dodging skill shots and reaction times with regards to escape spells, but given the large amount of point and click in this game, the former is just as important. While a note to the latter may not be the most helpful to a beginner ("dodge cass q and she can't trade with you until she gets her w") it is viable advice actually of the former for some champs (go vayne and save your q to dodge cass' q and counterharass).
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LeBlanc + Show Spoiler +LeBlanc is soft-countered by hard pushers (Cassio, Ahri, Morgana, Morde, etc.). If you don't manage to get ahead in the early-game you basically lose the game. One specific hard-counter for her is Sion, who not only is a hard pusher, but also gains health by pushing the lane, which negates the burst LeBlanc has.
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On February 02 2012 03:06 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote:well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point). anyways Pantheon:+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +Malphite + Cho'gath both fall under the same category because they largely screw with pantheon for the approx the same reasons. The primary reason is the fact that they can just straight up build armor and it doesn't affect their build at all, since they typically build said armor items anyways (i.e. frozen heart, GA, etc) and don't have to rush an early offensive item to be effective. Thus, they can very quickly out-armor pantheon for 0 opportunity cost.
In terms of actual laning specifics:For malphite, his temp shield is very frustrating for panth to deal with, since it operates largely the same as pantheon's own shield, except that it's even better vs spells, which is the primary form of lane interaction that pantheon has. He also cannot trade q + e combos as well with malphite, partially due to the shield, and partially due to the movespeed and attackspeed reductions that come with it. All in all, malph becomes a very frustrating champ to lane against as a pantheon.
For cho'gath, his healing passive makes it very difficult for pantheon's harass to have much of a long-term effect. Furthermore, he can actually trade autoattacks with pantheon early on due to vorpal spikes. Finally, cho is really effective at disrupting panth's HSS with both scream and knockup, and, because it disrupts HSS, it means that cho's q+e+auto combo will often outtrade pantheon's own q+w+e+q combo. + Show Spoiler [Yorick] +Yorick is a massive jackass in general and can really screw with pantheon in a lot of ways. First of all, his ghouls largely negate panth's passive, and panth's passive is actually a major factor dictating a lot of his vs. melee wins. Second of all, Yorick has a low CD, low mana cost, long range harass nuke that also has a significant amount of burst and sustained heal, all in one skill, (which is nuts in general). Post lvl 6, it is very difficult to commit vs yorick because he can basically just zerg you, and even if you do manage to kill him, he comes back and finishes you off anyways. The final nail in the coffin is that yorick completely out-maneuvers pantheon in terms of mobility. He is faster than pantheon (with q) and he can slow the shit out of panth (with w) for an extended period of time. "equal skill level" ~ a lot of this actually entails being able to change skill order / mastery / playstyle as needed against certain lanes. obviously there are the mechanics of dodging skill shots and reaction times with regards to escape spells, but given the large amount of point and click in this game, the former is just as important. While a note to the latter may not be the most helpful to a beginner ("dodge cass q and she can't trade with you until she gets her w") it is viable advice actually of the former for some champs (go vayne and save your q to dodge cass' q and counterharass).
both points are true. What i really wanted to establish is that you can't really debunk a champion counter solely on the evidence that a better player can win vs said champion if he is actually better at the game. Case in point: I say pretty specifically that malphite is a very strong counter to pantheon, yet I have seen smash beat (maybe closer to break even) a malph in lane because he was completely retarded. That doesn't debunk the assertion that malph is a counterpick to pantheon. Assuming equal skill level simply means (my interpretation of it anyways) that you can't use the evidence that you beat a champion solely due to the fact that he was retarded.
Applicable instances of 'equal skill level' in terms of dodging skill shots and proper pre-game i think is very much related to determining whether or not a champion should be considered a 'counter', and i believe that if a champion truely is a counter, then he will still have a large advantage even if you take such things into account.
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On February 02 2012 03:16 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 03:06 Navi wrote:On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote:well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point). anyways Pantheon:+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +Malphite + Cho'gath both fall under the same category because they largely screw with pantheon for the approx the same reasons. The primary reason is the fact that they can just straight up build armor and it doesn't affect their build at all, since they typically build said armor items anyways (i.e. frozen heart, GA, etc) and don't have to rush an early offensive item to be effective. Thus, they can very quickly out-armor pantheon for 0 opportunity cost.
In terms of actual laning specifics:For malphite, his temp shield is very frustrating for panth to deal with, since it operates largely the same as pantheon's own shield, except that it's even better vs spells, which is the primary form of lane interaction that pantheon has. He also cannot trade q + e combos as well with malphite, partially due to the shield, and partially due to the movespeed and attackspeed reductions that come with it. All in all, malph becomes a very frustrating champ to lane against as a pantheon.
For cho'gath, his healing passive makes it very difficult for pantheon's harass to have much of a long-term effect. Furthermore, he can actually trade autoattacks with pantheon early on due to vorpal spikes. Finally, cho is really effective at disrupting panth's HSS with both scream and knockup, and, because it disrupts HSS, it means that cho's q+e+auto combo will often outtrade pantheon's own q+w+e+q combo. + Show Spoiler [Yorick] +Yorick is a massive jackass in general and can really screw with pantheon in a lot of ways. First of all, his ghouls largely negate panth's passive, and panth's passive is actually a major factor dictating a lot of his vs. melee wins. Second of all, Yorick has a low CD, low mana cost, long range harass nuke that also has a significant amount of burst and sustained heal, all in one skill, (which is nuts in general). Post lvl 6, it is very difficult to commit vs yorick because he can basically just zerg you, and even if you do manage to kill him, he comes back and finishes you off anyways. The final nail in the coffin is that yorick completely out-maneuvers pantheon in terms of mobility. He is faster than pantheon (with q) and he can slow the shit out of panth (with w) for an extended period of time. "equal skill level" ~ a lot of this actually entails being able to change skill order / mastery / playstyle as needed against certain lanes. obviously there are the mechanics of dodging skill shots and reaction times with regards to escape spells, but given the large amount of point and click in this game, the former is just as important. While a note to the latter may not be the most helpful to a beginner ("dodge cass q and she can't trade with you until she gets her w") it is viable advice actually of the former for some champs (go vayne and save your q to dodge cass' q and counterharass). both points are true. What i really wanted to establish is that you can't really debunk a champion counter solely on the evidence that a better player can win vs said champion if he is actually better at the game. Case in point: I say pretty specifically that malphite is a very strong counter to pantheon, yet I have seen smash beat (maybe closer to break even) a malph in lane because he was completely retarded. That doesn't debunk the assertion that malph is a counterpick to pantheon. Assuming equal skill level simply means (my interpretation of it anyways) that you can't use the evidence that you beat a champion solely due to the fact that he was retarded. Applicable instances of 'equal skill level' in terms of dodging skill shots and proper pre-game i think is very much related to determining whether or not a champion should be considered a 'counter', and i believe that if a champion truely is a counter, then he will still have a large advantage even if you take such things into account.
True. I agree with you. One note to make is that in the above situation, if the Vayne uses her q to harass before Cassiopeia attempts to q her, Cassiopeia will destroy her in the trade if she lands her q in return (except at level 1). For all we know the Vayne has insane reaction time and is mechanically extremely fluid. The best advice one could give that Vayne in this scenario is the above, to save her q for counterharass explicitly and to e Cass away when she throws her w onto Vayne. This may follow on "not being retarded" but what is obvious to one person is not to another, so this kind of advice is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.
I will personally focus on mid and top lane champions in this thread, bottom lane has many more variable factors, and the counters are extremely straightforward (Caitlyn vs. Vayne) and are only made more so or completely changed by the support pick. Such discussion probably deserves a thread of its own.
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On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote: well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point). As I said, counters can take multiple forms. But equal skill level should not be assumed : optimal skill level should be. Between two terrible players, who knows ? Maybe Annie counters Cassio :p
When I speak of counters I'm assuming both players are playing the match-up the way they should and take the best possible decisions. As an example, Pantheon counters GP only if he doesn't max W and farms as cautiously possible while opening Cloth/Philo/Tabis/Chain mail. If GP is smart, Pantheon isn't that much of a hard counter in fact, whereas Riven or Trynda as an example can't beat Pantheon if both players play optimally.
On another note, thank you very much for your help Na'vi :o A top player insight will really add a lot to this topic !
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I can't really help with that list since I'm not such a good player, but I just thought about it yersterday. That it would be so awesome to have some kind of a list where you not only have counterpicks but also explaining how lanes should be played. And of course I thought there can't be a better place than TL to create such a thing.
It also fits in very well with the mammoth project neoillsuion started with the general role guides/descriptions imo.
Anyway thanks to anyone helping.
huehue
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as per a friend's request i will add in some junglers and jungle counters. obviously these "counterpicks" can be tenuous given on the pace of any given game (stronger mids etc.) but counters that work given non-hard countered lanes are wh at i will assume when i do these
edit: counters in jungling, maybe up to the second dragon at most. trundle for instance was an extreme counter pick to udyr as his e would destroy udyr's effectiveness in counterganking him and his ult wrecks udyr's basic premise (unkillable stunbot / turtle monstern) in teamfights; this counter is less harsh given how the new jungle suits udyr's clearing capabilities and trundle is less likely to be able to follow udyr to countergank efficiently.
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Leblanc
+ Show Spoiler [Galio] +Galio is a very good lane counter to Leblanc. Galio's inherent tankyness and more incentive to build MR (because of his passive), Leblanc will be unable to kill him in lane, preventing her from snowballing unless she roams. Galio also is very good at pushing the lane, pushing Leblanc to her tower and forcing her to use spells on CSing or risking losing it to the tower.
Galio + Show Spoiler [Udyr] + In the top lane, Udyr can just heal back everything that Galio throws at him, and is also very mana efficent, meaning he won't go OOM before Galio. If the Galio tries to use his ultimate, Udyr can go into bear stance to stun him and stop the ult early, reducing damage and essentially negating the Galio's teamfight presence for the next 2 mins or so.
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You should enter Garen and Renekton as counters to Akali. Even Cho.
Garen and Renekton just absolutely shit on her in lane. And Cho does well against her in lane but in teamfights the silence rapes her.
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On February 02 2012 03:26 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote: well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point). As I said, counters can take multiple forms. But equal skill level should not be assumed : optimal skill level should be. Between two terrible players, who knows ? Maybe Annie counters Cassio :p When I speak of counters I'm assuming both players are playing the match-up the way they should and take the best possible decisions. As an example, Pantheon counters GP only if he doesn't max W and farms as cautiously possible while opening Cloth/Philo/Tabis/Chain mail. If GP is smart, Pantheon isn't that much of a hard counter in fact, whereas Riven or Trynda as an example can't beat Pantheon if both players play optimally. On another note, thank you very much for your help Na'vi :o A top player insight will really add a lot to this topic !
hmm, I kno this isn't necessarily the point of your post (but i think this is really important to consider when talking about counters), but IMO you really have to factor in opportunity cost into that kind of thing. Yes, GP can probably barely survive if he opens like that and maxes w, but the cost of that is that GP has 0 damage and is building purely defensively from an armor perspective in order to still be on the back foot in lane and has minimal opportunity to be effective outside of his ult. That is usually indicative of a counter. I'll try to give some perspective on bot lane (altho I kno it's a very controversial topic here on TL, lol), since that's what i've largely been playing the past few months.
Vayne:
+ Show Spoiler [Ezreal] +Ezreal is basically SG's go-to counerpick bot lane vs vayne. His early up-front burst is phenomenal, and his attack-speed debuff really screws over vayne since A) it affects her silver bolts, and B) vayne's effective range is short enough and her movement predictable enough that it's actually fairly reasonable to consistenly hit w's
+ Show Spoiler [Urgot] +Urgot's primary weakness in bot lane is his lack of auto range (being 550, just like vayne), so the ordinary combo of shield-slow -> grenade -> q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q can be a bit more challenging vs champs with very high range/effective range like caitlyn. Vayne, on the other hand, has equally short auto range, has more predictable movement and since q's have monstrous range, if you hit the grenade, then it doesn't matter if vayne condemn's you away, which makes him very strong against her in lane. Sadly urgot isn't really popular so you don't see this too often.
+ Show Spoiler [Caitlyn] +Caitlyn has insane range and incredibly strong harass + traps none of which Vayne really has an answer to. Pretty straightforward.
Alistar:
+ Show Spoiler [Janna] +Janna is the queen of kiting. Alistar (in lane anyways) has some issues with getting close to people, esp if flash is down. He's also highly burst-reliant, and well-timed shields can negate a ton of his damage. Oftentimes, on either side of the matchup, I find the opportunites to really commit on either person as Alistar to be halved if Janna is paying attention.
+ Show Spoiler [Vayne] +I'm a little bit hesitant to call vayne a 'counter' to alistar, but good condemns are again, really good at keeping cow away. True dmg also more/less negates his ult.
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Malzahar
+ Show Spoiler +Xerath is an excellent counterpick to malz because his even more extensive range allows him to stay at safe range from all of malz's damaging spells, malzes Q, which outranges most other AP's considerably, is only encountered at maximum range and its delay makes it easily dodgeable. Xerath can also keep up with Malz's pushing easily and CS from far enough back to be safe from Malefic Visions The really brutal thing about Xerath vs Malz is the fact that Xeraths ult so heavily outclasses Malzahars. The only time you are ever likely to be within range of Malz's ult is when starting your full stun and Ult combo, and due to the quirk of delay in Xerath's ult hitting, if you hit it fast your ult will actually come down right after Malz starts his ult, stunning and interrupting it, at this point malz is pretty much screwed.
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On February 02 2012 03:56 SHr3DD3r wrote: You should enter Garen and Renekton as counters to Akali. Even Cho.
Garen and Renekton just absolutely shit on her in lane. And Cho does well against her in lane but in teamfights the silence rapes her.
I'm all for including additional counters that others haven't thought of, but it would be nice if you expanded on those thoughts so that others can follow your line of reasoning.
I personally feel that if Akali opens with armor in the defensive tree, armor yellows, and cloth 5pot she can lane versus Garen and Renekton without any significant trouble. They are two top lane champions with relatively mediocre damage scaling (pure AD is difficult to build in competitive situations given the way they tend to / are expected to play in teamfights). Lee Sin has superior utility over the two as well as a more direct way to counter her veil (akali can escape their spins under veil by walking away from the center where most garens / renektons will sit spinning, or by escaping to a nearby bush) whereas Lee Sin will know immediately whether or not he has hit her and can adapt accordingly, as well as having a shield in case if Akali opts for ranged q harass at early levels.
Riven straight up outscales her in almost every aspect, and unlike both Renekton and Garen, Riven is effectively immune to all of Akali's harass due to the combination of her E and the fact that to get into range to proc her q, Akali must come into Riven's w range, even under shroud (unlike Renekton and Garen's targetted autoattack modifier CCs). Seeing as all three of these champs are full physical damage pre 6 (Riven is post 6 as well), if you were to run against any of these, I would definitely run the aforementioned setup. However, while Akali can force trades suitable for her against a Garen or Renekton running boots3 or dblade with this setup, she has trouble doing so against a Riven running cloth5 or even boots3, as she has the effective immunity to Akali's q and more overall damage to deal against a shrouded Akali as well. As a final note, she can also more easily escape ganks due to her superior mobility over the two proffered counters, who both push the lane in order to exert their dominance over Akali, making Riven a more complete counter than the other two.
Cho'Gath with the correct rune setup is just about a soft counter to most melee toplaners, as he can often outsustain them while being of similar or greater use in the first teamfight than most. With a 27 mres page he will of course do well in lane versus Akali.
ofc in solo queue an akali may run no armor and just get pooped on. but that's far from ideal
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we should try to decide which are the best and well written descriptions for each counter pick and have it in the OP. It'd be much more convenient for people to use it as a quick counter-pick guide when in solo queue or something...
Wouldn't it be nice to just throw a link up in chat and be like ok counter with these guys: http://teamliqu......
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everyone should feel free to share their opinions and everyone should be able to critique each other's without fear of having his/her pick "decided on" or bashed for not choosing to blindly follow a counter. I may be horribly wrong and riven may be a terrible matchup vs akali. if someone can convince me so through numbers and/or practice, then i will gladly accept and learn from it it and we can take her off the counter list. from my limited experience in that lane though, it is more incredibly one sided than any other lane i have played vs akali.
i agree witih shr3dd3r that given the way that many akalis open boots 3 pots blindly that garen and renekton can beat akali in lane. I do not agree that if she sets up correctly that she will always be dominated as such. if shr3dd3r would like to prove me wrong or has further explanations that he would like to give that are intuitive, they should definitely be put on akali's list of counters.
Maybe expecting 27 armor / Mres against most laners is asking too much (i still think they are two of the best set ups for those looking for attrition or to survive laning). But even with just armor yellows and cloth5pot, the lane goes from dreadful to playable. Akali's strength is not pre 6 (especially with the nerfs), but rather with her unique mobility and high level q's damage upon squishies.
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Morgana counters all standard ap mid
User was warned for this post
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can we get all of the updated ones moved to op plz this could be a pretty useful thread because people i play with are idiots
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On February 02 2012 06:54 emucxg wrote: Morgana counters all standard ap mid
cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc. galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well). xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well.
1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than.
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I don't really play Garen that much, so I won't comment on him. But for Renekton - sure I will try to.
Even if akali runs mostly armor - I still think that Renekton should bully her in lane. His early level dominance over her alone should just give him a substantial lead. Her Shroud isn't all that useful vs Renek as his Q will hit her regardless. And his E is too good as a runaway tool. Then once they both hit 6 - akali - well most akalis will try to kill him or harass him more to burst him down eventually - but Renek can recover from most of the damage easily imo, and then if she tries to do something aggressive (which is what most akalis have to do just to stay relevant in the game), his W Q and E help him to counter her burst with his own mini burst and sustain. And if he uses his ultimate no real way Akali can kill him.
And plus Renekton shouldn't even go straight up Mogs - especially if he has a lead, so go double dorans and Brut, regardless of the armor Akali starts with, I doubt she will be able to touch Renek at all.
Actually if I think about - most of this shit works for Garen tooo derp ((.
Akali will need alot of jungle help just to farm, and will need to gank other lanes and opposing jungle consistently in the hopes of getting a few kills here and there so she can try to 1v1 Renek.
Just my thoughts. If you don't really feel he hard counters her its all good. Just thought I should share my opinion as Navi said.
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that's cool. i'd be willing to test out that matchup with you on the US server if you would like. probably the best way to persuade / be persuaded for either side :3
i would agree on renekton having a better time than garen due to his ability to q while moving (cast q and then start moving backwards), which with boots would make it more difficult for akali to land her q's proc. however, with shroud this is slightly negated - and i still maintain that akali would be able to farm. I don't think she needs to get kills to come out of that lane happy necessarily - as long as she has decent CS and levels she can come invade or gank another lane or laneswap with mid and use her high mobility and burst against those who are lower level / HP / defensive stats and hopefully start her snowballing there instead.
I would agree that most lanes that need jungler assistance to survive are soft counters for at least that part of the laning phase - but when akali picks up sustain, renekton has no real way of sticking unto her in the short time it would take both of them to clear a wave unless he has red and she has no tower either imo. so the counter level is less so than riven or lee in my opinion, who both have kill potential combos post 6 as well as dominance during the period of time when all top laners do not want to miss a single creep's worth of exp or cs for fear of the immediate repercussions (1-6).
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Cassiopeia
+ Show Spoiler +Karthus: Soft counter, Reasoning: The range on your Q(lay waste) allows you to farm at a distance / deter her if she tries to zone you. W(wall of pain) can be used defensively, or offensively - coupled with your jungler to punish her aggressive playstyle (GG 5 second 40% slow). I would like to test this out a few more times. I'd appreciate your feedback 
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Thanks for all the replies, I'll update the OP tommorow morning ^^
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On February 02 2012 07:21 BaconSoup wrote:Cassiopeia+ Show Spoiler +Karthus: Soft counter, Reasoning: The range on your Q(lay waste) allows you to farm at a distance / deter her if she tries to zone you. W(wall of pain) can be used defensively, or offensively - coupled with your jungler to punish her aggressive playstyle (GG 5 second 40% slow). I would like to test this out a few more times. I'd appreciate your feedback 
i wouldn't use his wall as a deciding factor in that matchup - cass has plenty of slows / speeds / stuns in her kit as well, and if a long slow was all that mattered nasus would be unbeatable with the right jungler . counterganks happen as well, although karthus is admittedly very powerful in 2v2 engagements earlygame. i would think that Cassiopeia would have pushing power in that matchup because if the two advanced before their waves, a smart cass would go for the fight, even if karthus walled. to wall, karthus must face cass - giving her the opportunity to ult him post 6 as well - but her DPS will be larger once the creeps come to her (no more double damage) and they begin bashing each other with their q's and e's.
Post 6 this becomes a large issue to karthus because of the stun time as mentioned above. Pre 6, the half cd of e as compared to karthus's q and his inability to finish her off with the ultimate means that he should be wary in such fights as well. I think that this matchup between two skilled individuals should end in a stalemate, or slightly in cass' favor, in most non-super aggressive lanes. If gankability was a setup for a hard counter, malzahar and annie and a few noticeable others would be a lot more prevalent in high play :O
relevant to this discussion is the final game of CLG.eu vs m5. worth a watch!
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OP UPDATED
Once we get this running, we will need to prune bad examples and poorly written match-ups description. How would you like to do that ? I can try to do it by myself, or maybe creat a side-page with an upvote/downvote system ?
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Morgana gets countered by: Cho'gath. The instant silence from behind a minion comes into effect before black shield can go off, and morgana can't really have her shield up all the time. I'd think it'd be the same with most characters with silences like Talon.
Morgana's shield also doesn't work against physical damage. If you're good at dodging Q's you can beat her with an AD carry.
Anyone that can clear waves faster than morgana (cho again) can also cause her to miss tormented soil or have to use it at tower as Navi says.
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Singed
Against Singed toplane your best bet is to pick Ryze. You should harass and zone Singed very hard with auto-attacks whenever he moves in for a last-hit and starting with lvl3 also with frequent Qs. Since Singed relies on getting close to be obnoxious Ryze should always easily answer with a QWQ Combo. Ryze also scales very hard into later stages of the game, which will be easy reached due to the lack of harassment of Singed.
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On February 02 2012 20:04 Brockster wrote: Singed
Against Singed toplane your best bet is to pick Ryze. You should harass and zone Singed very hard with auto-attacks whenever he moves in for a last-hit and starting with lvl3 also with frequent Qs. Since Singed relies on getting close to be obnoxious Ryze should always easily answer with a QWQ Combo. Ryze also scales very hard into later stages of the game, which will be easy reached due to the lack of harassment of Singed.
singed has so many laneing counters its not even funny. To point out a specific one seems to be abundand.
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On February 02 2012 21:44 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 20:04 Brockster wrote: Singed
Against Singed toplane your best bet is to pick Ryze. You should harass and zone Singed very hard with auto-attacks whenever he moves in for a last-hit and starting with lvl3 also with frequent Qs. Since Singed relies on getting close to be obnoxious Ryze should always easily answer with a QWQ Combo. Ryze also scales very hard into later stages of the game, which will be easy reached due to the lack of harassment of Singed.
singed has so many laneing counters its not even funny. To point out a specific one seems to be abundand.
Not really. It would make sense to point them all out. It wouldn't make sense just to ignore them.
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Well the thing is Singed doesn't really have a strong laning phase so alot of matchups end up the same.
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Vladimir + Show Spoiler +Cassiopeia, with proper play, should destroy a vladimir in lane. Her longer range and ability to turn any trade into her favor with her E spam makes her perfect for taking advantage of vlad's early game weakness between levels 1-7, and taking command of the lane with her superior ability to trade, far longer range, and zone control with her w and q. An emphasis on proper play however. It is important to be able to make every trade count strongly in your favor when laning against vlad, because due to his sustain, it is nearly impossible to come back if he gets ahead of you.
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anything that is ranged and has a disengage or disable. anything that can push faster. anything that scales harder.
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i think this is a pretty succinct post by smash, tho it's regarding nasus vs singed, but it touches on the issues that singed does indeed have.
1. The big issue is that singed puts out relatively huge sustained magic DPS to Melee characters who have to be in predictable locations, and can disengage from Melee characters at will with an absurd slow and repositioning skill. The ways that melee can deal with this is: a. Ranged Nuke and b. Instant Gap Closer. Nasus has neither.
So basically, the way I interpret this, is that for singed to win, he as to be able to disengage at will, which he can only do with champions that don't have range and don't have the capability to stick to people. Due to the number of dashes or ranged skills that melee champions have, there are only a select few champions that have trouble dealing with singed.
Another vladimir counter:
Vladimir:
+ Show Spoiler [Kassadin] +This on is pretty easy, Kassadin has a 650 range nuke/silence. Vlad's q is 600, and early on in lane, they are roughly equal in cooldown, so pre 6, it is well within reason for Kass to totally screw up any attempt for vlad to really do anything. it also helps that Kass has some extra mres for a passive.
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On February 02 2012 23:26 InvaderUK wrote: Well the thing is Singed doesn't really have a strong laning phase so alot of matchups end up the same.
Well yes, so does nasus. But for those champions that snowball hard you have a different definition of counter lane. In my opinion at least.
When I play against Garen I essentially win my lane by even the farm and scale better into late game. So a counterpick would be someone who can just farm against him.
When I play against Nasus (or Singed) that doesn't work. I need to take a champ that denies (and maybe even kill) him. So a counterpick would be someone that destroys him in lane.
As it seems Ryze destroys singed in lane. there are other champs that doesn't and doesn't scale as well. So where is the point in not pointing that out?
On February 02 2012 23:31 clickrush wrote: anything that is ranged and has a disengage or disable. anything that can push faster. anything that scales harder.
And as I understand it this is exactly what we are not looking for.
There a some "counterpick-lists" out there alraedy that have this kind of information, but no details at all. Or you could just go into the general LoL forum for this information.
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Akali
I mentioned this previously in the akali thread, but worth mentioning here since it's relevant. Garen and Cassiopeia are also hard counters due to their aoe skills which negates her shroud, and their trades are superior to that of akali's.
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Please try to be at least close to the layout used for all the champs. It's a pain to re format everything.
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Here's one.
Solo top Riven + Show Spoiler +General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw.
+ Show Spoiler +Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane.
+ Show Spoiler +Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over.
+ Show Spoiler +Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing.
+ Show Spoiler +Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately.
+ Show Spoiler +A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually.
+ Show Spoiler +Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP.
+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks.
+ Show Spoiler +Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft.
Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start.
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There are very few "bad" top matchups that cannot be amended by rune/item/skill order.
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I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too:
Gangplank Top + Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally.
Karthus Mid + Show Spoiler +Kassadin destroys karthus, his teleport mobility allows him to completely avoid taking any damage from karthus's Q, aura and wall once he reaches level 6. Karthus Q spam will allow kassadin to constanty use his E, and the silence shuts down any counterattack. Kassadin can also jump in and silence karthus if he tries to channel his ult, even if he is far under tower. There is literally nothing karthus can do vs kassadin.
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On February 02 2012 07:06 Navi wrote:cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc. galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well). xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well. 1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than.
Counterpick morg for me pls. Assume no blues cos junglers steal all blues. No skillshot heroes dem too hardz. Also galio no count cos I need pure AP mage.
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On February 03 2012 00:50 spacemonkey4eve wrote: Akali
I mentioned this previously in the akali thread, but worth mentioning here since it's relevant. Garen and Cassiopeia are also hard counters due to their aoe skills which negates her shroud, and their trades are superior to that of akali's.
You can add Gragas to that list too, She can't hide in her shroud because of barrel's long range and AoE, and if she tries to go for the kill post-6, Gragas can ER to gain a huge amount of distance.
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On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally.
Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP.
Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
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On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
that's only players who know what panth is capable of with right rune/masteries setup , i.e. high elo. At 1500s elo I routinely stomp GPs who obviously max q first, thinking cloth 5pots + armor masteries would be enough to mitigate my spears (it isn't).
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Loving this thread thus far, I don't really have time to watch much LoL so this will really help me when do play. One thing I haven't seen though: No jungler counter picks yet. I normally play jungler and understand some basic concepts, but hard counter picks would really be nice when I see typical low-ELO things like Amumu or Shaco first picks.
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Ez doesn't really counter Vayne. You have to keep in mind it's duo lane bot. Vayne+Taric will own Ez+support. Vayne can just hide behind minions and dodge your q. If you not going AP Ez, your W isn't gonna do anything.
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I dont think there are any AD vs AD counters aside from vayne having a really hard time vs graves/cait, which can be made up by having a good support matchup.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 03 2012 03:40 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:06 Navi wrote:On February 02 2012 06:54 emucxg wrote: Morgana counters all standard ap mid cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc. galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well). xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well. 1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than. Counterpick morg for me pls. Assume no blues cos junglers steal all blues. No skillshot heroes dem too hardz. Also galio no count cos I need pure AP mage.
Vlad. 21/9/0, walk up and q her every time it's off cooldown, should be pretty easy to dodge Qs, W's aren't an issue just don;t stand in them, autoattack as much as needed to counteract early W push spam.
Hit 6-7, buy revolver, spam E and Q and you completely outtrade and outpush Morgana. Don't need blue. Wota/cdr boots/spirit visage if needed in whatever order makes sense. Buy wards and dont get ganked since you'll be up in her face the whole time. only requirement is for people in your other lanes to have acceptable amounts of cc and/or initiate for team fights.
Vlad #1 op.
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Champions like nunu, tryn, teemo, malphite, nasus, and rammus are anticarries in the sense that they can counter carries. Nasus usually builds frozen heart and his W slows by up to 95%. Starts at 35%. Lasts 5 seconds. Can you imagine someone with 5% of their attack speed? Tryndamere's poultry shout reduces AD by 80 (before crits). I consider it at least a 33% reduction in damage on standard IE 2xPdancer builds. Lasts 4 seconds. Really strong if you didn't build to counter tryn - trust me on this. Before the patch a few weeks ago it was even stronger 0_o. Teemo blinds the AD carry. Malphite slows many AD carries at once with randuins/frozen heart. His slam will cut dps on AD carries in half. Lasts 4 seconds. Nunu's snowball, and his R slow attack speed by 25% each individually (~44% stacked?) and his W makes your AD carry have +65% attack speed. He will also build frozen heart. Rammus has a taunt, his R and thornmail. If there is any lag, you will die before you have a chance to QSS out.
Most of these champions (save teemo, support nunu) aren't great vs AD carries in lane though.
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On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
i refer you to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=17#338 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=16#309 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#320 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#302
in 1 post, smash says he ends up doing OK with pantheon when he does super defensive builds, but there's no way GP is even remotely a counter, or even particularly strong vs pantheon, and the only reason he does all right is kus oranges are OP and mess up the death combo.
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I'm pretty sure Ryze beats Vlad. During the early levels when Ryze is weak, Vlad is similarly weak and has a very long cooldown on Transfusion. In the mid-game, Vlad suffers from a really low range on Transfusion combined with no gap closers. This means Ryze can Q Vlad at will, and stuff any aggression from Vlad with W (which outranges Vlad's Q). Late-game, Ryze scales much harder than Vlad so Vlad can't just trade farm.
Also, it seems like Soraka shuts down Caitlyn in the 2v2 bot lane matchup. Caitlyn's harass is negated by Soraka's heal, and Caitlyn gets out-scaled by just about every other AD bot.
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Vayne has no chance against Corki bottom lane.
Her range is too low against him, every time you go up to cs you get hit so hard by corki. Graves is very good for the same reason, but not as good of a counter as corki imo.
Also, to counter Ryze, cassio, brand, and orianna are incredibly good against him. He literally can't do anything. GP gets beat top by rumble and singed the hardest imo. With singed, you lose early levels, but you should be fine with cloth armor 5 pots, then once you get tabi + another cloth you just walk through him and destroy him, tower diving over and over if you want. Rumble is similar, you just have to wait til level 3-4 taking parley harrass and then you just press q and walk towards him.
Any melee champ top gets countered by vladimir :/
edit: just my sentiments on counters. Also, most of the time bruiser vs bruiser top lane is "won" by whoever pushes fearlessly without wards early and gets minion wave advantage. Of course it backfires when jungler comes.
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Taric Support + Show Spoiler [Alistar] +Alistar will usually beat Taric in lane. Taric's only major advantage as a support is his engagement power in lane. His stun, armor buff, and armor debuff make it so that he wins every bottom lane engage, that is except against Alistar. Taric is unable to get his stun shatter combo against an Alistar because Alistar will just retaliate with pulverize headbutt. Any sort of stun engagement Taric does gets denied with headbutt. Alistar will outpoke and outsustain Taric, leading to a lane victory.
Urgot AD Carry + Show Spoiler [Taric] +Once urgot lands his bomb, pop a stun on him and he'll only be able to shoot maybe one dagger. With your armor buff, dagger damage is cut down drastically. Without lane bullying, Urgot isn't very strong overall. + Show Spoiler [Soraka] +Urgot's harass has no way of outdamaging Soraka's heal and armor buff. Once Urgot lands a bomb, silence him and heal as needed. Same reason as above, without Urgot being able to harass, he's much less a threat.
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On February 03 2012 11:53 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth. i refer you to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=17#338http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=16#309http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#320http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#302in 1 post, smash says he ends up doing OK with pantheon when he does super defensive builds, but there's no way GP is even remotely a counter, or even particularly strong vs pantheon, and the only reason he does all right is kus oranges are OP and mess up the death combo.
Hmm... can we sum it up as Smash GP > random panth and Smash Panth > random GP? Stupid outcome for this thread, I'll stfu. =P
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+ Show Spoiler [Rumble] + Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] + Nasus. Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls, I believe. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
Obviously I'm only trying to help with champs I know most about. Irelia is my other main top champ and she seems to randomly lose/beat everyone depending how you play//how you rune etc.
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On February 03 2012 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Rumble] + Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] + Nasus. Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls, I believe. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
Obviously I'm only trying to help with champs I know most about. Irelia is my other main top champ and she seems to randomly lose/beat everyone depending how you play//how you rune etc. «For whatever reason» = not really an in depth explanation of the match up... >.>
Waiting for the B letter from Na'vi :p
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How about you read the rest of what I wrote then? It just seems like Nasus' combination of lots of sustain for versus harass and his ultimate to win in burst trades. .You can sustain his harass and weather his burst in a 1v1. Just seems like a really unlikely counter.
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Thanks a lot for this, very good and educational read =)
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On February 03 2012 22:34 Slayer91 wrote:How about you read the rest of what I wrote then?  It just seems like Nasus' combination of lots of sustain for versus harass and his ultimate to win in burst trades. .You can sustain his harass and weather his burst in a 1v1. Just seems like a really unlikely counter. Well the thing is that you talk about a philo rush but... How can you even afford a Philo ? It's like saying Irelia counters Panth past 6 with decent stuff. The matter of fact is that early she'll get destroyed and should reach 6 with ninja tabis and a cloth.
I'm pretty sure if you win with Nasus VS Rumble it's because you weren't shut down fast enough. Past philo/6 nasus can farm as much as he wants anyway, in all match ups, but he should be completly crippled going there.
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Rumble can't do anything to an MR page with a hp regen early levels. His spells don't do any damage to you. His flame spitter only really starts hurting at about level 5, and that's about the time you go back and buy philo and boots and pots and wards, and tp back to lane.
Level 9 rumble's Q does 5x the damage as level 2 rumble's Q. Level 1 pantheon has like, what, 70 AD? Pantheon doesn't show up at level 9 with 350 AD, does he?
Starting philo is generally riskier against people who can constantly come to auto hit attack you and having higher AD/lifesteal is better than regen. Casters are a totally different story. Rumble pushes so much with Q there's just no way you can be zoned by it if you're playing smart and not just tanking his whole duration of it.
I also don't buy pantheon destroying irelia. Irelia gets picked so many times at top level and is never once "counterpicked" (except by an outpushing her shyvana, maybe). From what I hear smash say you basically have to be ready to tower dive her that's how agressive you have to play but I feel like it's just too juicy of a lane for a jungler to "camp" when you know if irelia gets decent cs she'll win lane later easily. (I guess you can counter gank or whatever but that depends on what junglers you tend to play, for me udyr almost never loses counter gank situations)
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I've experienced playing rumble vs Slayers' Nasus in one of the EU TL inhouses and I ended up just leaving top lane to roam at around level 9 as I saw I couldn't do anything to stop him farming anyway. I think my team trashed the other lanes and then Teut came back and carried everyone later on anyway.
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Oh yeah, I remember that, haha. Had to get quadras every fight and shit though.
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On February 03 2012 12:53 Chairman Ray wrote:Taric Support+ Show Spoiler [Alistar] +Alistar will usually beat Taric in lane. Taric's only major advantage as a support is his engagement power in lane. His stun, armor buff, and armor debuff make it so that he wins every bottom lane engage, that is except against Alistar. Taric is unable to get his stun shatter combo against an Alistar because Alistar will just retaliate with pulverize headbutt. Any sort of stun engagement Taric does gets denied with headbutt. Alistar will outpoke and outsustain Taric, leading to a lane victory. Urgot AD Carry+ Show Spoiler [Taric] +Once urgot lands his bomb, pop a stun on him and he'll only be able to shoot maybe one dagger. With your armor buff, dagger damage is cut down drastically. Without lane bullying, Urgot isn't very strong overall. + Show Spoiler [Soraka] +Urgot's harass has no way of outdamaging Soraka's heal and armor buff. Once Urgot lands a bomb, silence him and heal as needed. Same reason as above, without Urgot being able to harass, he's much less a threat.
RE: urgot vs soraka. Imo, you have a good point, but it's backwards. Urgot doesn't really give a shit about the armor buff, since grenade applies % armor reduction. The bigger deal is the silence during q's. I think i went over this in GD at one point, but I had a quick revisitation of urgot for bot lane, and routinely thrashed soraka lanes who just tried to mindlessly heal. At the same time tho, I kno i had issues vs kassadin in lane a long time ago (in the days of solo lane urgot) and concluded it was almost solely due to his silence, which would lead me to believe it if somebody told me that soraka is good vs urgot, but it would be because of silence, with the heal as an added annoyance, not primarily because of her heal.
On February 03 2012 21:27 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 11:53 barbsq wrote:On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth. i refer you to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=17#338http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=16#309http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#320http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#302in 1 post, smash says he ends up doing OK with pantheon when he does super defensive builds, but there's no way GP is even remotely a counter, or even particularly strong vs pantheon, and the only reason he does all right is kus oranges are OP and mess up the death combo. Hmm... can we sum it up as Smash GP > random panth and Smash Panth > random GP? Stupid outcome for this thread, I'll stfu. =P
I would still qualify panth as a gp counter, solely due to the opportunity cost of requiring that much defense before even thinking about offensive items (which are very necessary for GP's efficacy). I admit, however, that while i'm confident panth is almost certainly stronger than gp in lane, I will concede that, with the above armor setup and maxing w, GP not only has the capability to evade certain death via eating oranges, but also is capable from farming decently enough at range, and with double gp5 and a mess of armor items, would be able to pull it out for the late game better than many other champs would. Then we get into kind of a grey area where it's not quite so certain that panth is necessarily a counter, at which point it depends on how quickly you need your GP to kick in, as well as taking jungle interferance into account (because panth is def vulnerable to jungle ganks).
i don't think there's any doubt that GP would put on his sad face if he saw panth in lane.
On February 03 2012 22:32 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Rumble] + Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] + Nasus. Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls, I believe. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
Obviously I'm only trying to help with champs I know most about. Irelia is my other main top champ and she seems to randomly lose/beat everyone depending how you play//how you rune etc. «For whatever reason» = not really an in depth explanation of the match up... >.> Waiting for the B letter from Na'vi :p
i would be inclined to believe slayer, even just on a vote of confidence. He's def one of the better players on this subforum
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lol @ all those heroes that start with B here's B & C i dun want to do most ADs, as they seem to be played solely bottom these days, and those matchups are decided with support pick and playstyle etc. etc. if there is a notable counterpick as an AD (i.e. caitlyn vs kassadin) then i will mention them in kassadin's list for example.
Brand: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler +Brand’s strength in lane depends upon landing his W. After the range nerf to his E, it has become more difficult for Brand players to make efficient long range poke / poke trades with E in the combo. Should you find yourself laning versus Brand, you will want to open boots the vast majority of the time, as if you can reliably dodge his W’s, you can come out of laning unscathed if your goal is to outfarm and outscale him, or out-trade him if your goal is to kill him in lane. While he does have the kit to clear creeps, if he does not have access to blue (killed with blue, blue stolen, enemy jungler has their blue, etc.) he cannot keep up clear speeds mid as compared to other fast and more mana efficient lane clearers.
Thus, smart picks against Brand include Xerath (huge range advantage over Brand, more reliable poke, movespeed steroid on w if siege-ing onto Brand and he approaches you, stronger and more reliable burst at 6), Morgana and Galio (for mana efficient lane clearing and some form of protection from his burst and poke as needed), Karthus (Brand has difficulty approaching a cautious Karthus due to wall. If Karthus takes care to not get hit by Brand’s skillshots, he can easily farm his lane to the point where he has greater map presence and lane clearing ability than Brand), Cassiopeia (she has greater range on her q, a variety of slows / speeds which are useful in skillshot battles, and if she avoids Brand’s stun, can win any head on engagement with ease), Mordekaiser (with proper regen and mres, Morde can essentially ignore any harass from Brand while pushing with extreme efficiency and landing incidental harassment with E from very early on. 12 health pot openings are the best huehuehue).
Cassiopeia: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler +Cassiopeia as of right now has very little trouble in most 1v1 lanes. Her ability to poke with low cd and mana cost (Q) and her ability to commit to trades with little fear of losing due to the reset mechanic on her e make her a fearsome opponent in lane. The movement speed duration buff, combined with the range increase buff on her E, essentially guarantees that she can hit an E after she lands a Q, excepting very large movement speed differences.
A notable counterpick is Galio. His bulwark essentially mitigates or even heals off of a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DoT damage (Cass W + Q) and reduces a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DPS from her E. Even when his bulwark is on cooldown, his Q has enough range (and a slow active) as to prevent consistent harassment. Overall, with smart bulwark and teleport usage, Galio should never be in danger of dying, and can force backs from Cassiopeia before she obtains a revolver or some other form of sustain in lane. He clears with higher mana efficiency and speed, and can thus exert pressure on wraiths and other lanes with greater ease.
Cho’Gath: (Top) + Show Spoiler +Cho’Gath is also a notable champion with very few counters with correct runes and masteries. His sustain and consistent damage make it very difficult to trade with Cho’Gath unless the Cho in question is very bad at lasthitting or is pressured early on so that he cannot come back into lasthitting range (early jungler ganks, etc.). He also has great flexibility in itemization, especially defensive items, and as such can utilize this along with the free HP granted from his ultimate to become immovable in lane. The vast majority of top lane champions thus cannot win straight up against a smart Cho player.
Most typical “AD bruisers” are not an exception to this against a Cho with a 25 + armor setup. However, a few can feel very comfortable trading farm with Cho’Gath. Irelia, Riven, and Tryndamere all can trade farm with Cho’Gath (Riven and Tryndamere have methods of escaping his combo with good reaction time, and Irelia has a situational dash / high sustain as well) and come out ahead in the lategame – although they may feel weak in the first dragon fight if Cho’Gath chooses to take teleport and teleports there, as his AoE cc and true damage burst tends to contribute more to early fights.
Edit: I can't believe I forgot Gangplank. Gangplank can simply zone Cho'Gath from level 1, as Cho needs to stay reasonably close to CS - his sustain is entirely dependent on lasthitting, and GP can deal great damage from level 1 and put Cho in a situation where he cannot autoattack for lasthits.
Corki: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +While Corki is typically played bottom in today’s League of Legends, he was once one of the greatest mid lane dominators. His clearing ability and strong poke make him a viable solo in double AD and various AoE comps.
Corki excels against those whom he can utilize his strong autoattack and q against – thus melee casters such as Kassadin and Gragas can often struggle against Corki in lane. On the other hand, laners with a strong form of counterharass can be played against Corki with success – Cassiopeia does not fear Corki’s harass because if she lands a q she can come ahead drastically. Also, valkyrie-ing onto Cassiopeia post 6 is suicide for Corki, as her ult will destroy any ability to trade. Corki should have cleanse and a very, very large health difference if he wishes to attempt something of the sort.
A less hard counter but notable pick against Corki is Anivia – her autoattack range is sufficiently long that she can lasthit effectively, and if Corki makes it clear that he wishes to harass her, she can aim for a Q + E if his path of travel is readable. Her clear efficiency with blue exceeds that of Corki’s, and she has harder scaling in the right team composition.
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If its not about Udyr, dont trust Slayer. Just saying.
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Solo top, Ryze > Swain. Do I need to explain? (After 5 or so he can harrass Swain super hard with Q spam, even after swain gets ulti ryze can harrass and burst him as soon as he comes close. It's just descruction. Also ryze rushes veil so yeah)
Solo top, Mordekaiser > Olaf. I think this one's very clear-cut as well. (Shield > true dmg. Olaf is melee. I can explain more in-detail but yeah...)
Jax > Tryndamere, Gangplank, from what I've seen thus far. Might be a bit too early to call but either way he can dodge Gangplank's Parrrley and vs Tryndamere yeah it's pretty obvious again.
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Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q.
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With the right full armor runes yes Shen wins.
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i forgot shen was even in this game until just now o.O
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Also if panth ults then shen can follow in it's pretty legit.
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On February 04 2012 10:53 InvaderUK wrote: Also if panth ults then shen can follow in it's pretty legit.
That can actually work, yes. Can also shield the spears.
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And Pantheon is going to run out of mana from spamming Q before Shen runs out of mana from spamming W. Shen doesnt even have mana.
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On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:Here's one. Solo top Riven+ Show Spoiler +General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler +Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler +Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler +Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler +Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler +A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler +Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler +Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler +Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler +Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start.
Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond.
Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her.
Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means.
Lee: Lol
i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol
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On February 04 2012 10:46 buttersworth wrote: Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q. I remember a bunch of people said malphite was another counter to pantheon in the pantheon thread for much the same reason. Malphite has a nice shield to block spears, so he should come out ahead in trades if he maxes his Q and waits for his shield. It's not like you can get into an autoattack fight with malphite either.
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There are so many weird matchups that people don't know about.
For whatever reason I seem to stomp yorick in the nuts with Xin every time I play that matchup. Like, 100% body that son of a bitch with Xin Zhao, lol.
Shen is a soft counter to Pantheon at best, it's a weird matchup. Maxing W will lose you the lane. Something like QWWQERQQQWREEEERWW, but I think the matchup is almost always won by the junglers.
Not sure why Sion went out of style top, he murders a lot of people top.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:Here's one. Solo top Riven+ Show Spoiler +General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler +Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler +Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler +Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler +Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler +A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler +Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler +Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler +Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler +Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. In addition to what Navi said above, I would point out that in the case of Udyr, Lee, Nasus, Cho, and Panth, stalemating against Riven isn't good enough. She becomes WAY stronger than any of them mid-lategame, so they have to do significantly better than just trading farm to be considered a "counter". Trading farm is signficantly advantageous to Riven in those cases.
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On February 04 2012 10:46 buttersworth wrote: Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q. Well
Pantheon gets freefarm though and imo Shen is just bad so rather have panth >_>
Unless the Shen builds AP with Rylai, then he's imba.
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I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all.
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another.
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On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote: I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all.
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another.
Sona counters every1. She's a godlike motha fucka who owns every1 singlehandedly.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote: I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all.
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another.
Gonna have to agree with Mr. Craton here.
If this thread is meant as a detailed, paragraphed based counter pick list, it is only fitting for 1v1s. In reality, Bot lane as well as Jungle, there are simply too many variables to account for.
You could have team fight counter picks too (e.g. Udyr's Bear Stance is pretty rough for a Galio who tries to ulti) but I wouldn't suggest it. Keep the scope of this thread narrow and things make much more sense. It should revolve largely around laning phase.
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I disagree with udyr bear stance countering galio. You have to COMPLETELY fuck up your positioning to follow galio around and he just won't ult if you're right next to him. Galio without ult is more useful than udyr who in is bear, standing next to galio, but not actually DOING anything. The only time I tried this I ended up doing nothing in a teamfight, galio still got like 1 second off of ulti before I broke it and I took too much free damage.
EDIT: Staying close to your squishies as udyr is "completely fucking up your positioning" in my book, huehue.
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Xerath + Show Spoiler +Ahri ruins xerath's day hardcore, she has long range and good sustain which he lacks, a very pokey Q which can chunk him if he sieges up, but mostly it comes down to the ults. Xerath has 3 delayed skillshot nukes, Ahri has 3 dashes, its a very hard counter. If a Xerath lands his ult on you as Ahri you did something wrong. Just wait for him to start ulting then zip around and kill him while dodging it. Also ahri can hit Xerath with her heart while he is ulting to significantly delay the second and third procs.
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On February 04 2012 14:42 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 10:46 buttersworth wrote: Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q. Well Pantheon gets freefarm though and imo Shen is just bad so rather have panth >_> Unless the Shen builds AP with Rylai, then he's imba.
Well in my opinion you're bad so your opinion doesn't really mean anything and if I remember correctly you were proud of actually just having won a game with your AP Shen earlier this week. Just because you can't play a champ doesnt mean it's a bad champ. Pantheon doesnt get freefarm since Shen has his Q to harrass. Shen is also alot more useful lategame compared to Pantheon if you build something useful like a trinity force.
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I'm accepting challengers on Shen vs Pantheon with the wisdom on drunk butters on my side, I'm already 1-0! (EU only, don't hurt me smash)
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On February 04 2012 23:21 Slayer91 wrote: I'm accepting challengers on Shen vs Pantheon with the wisdom on drunk butters on my side, I'm already 1-0! (EU only, don't hurt me smash) well, as I've already said, it's a weird match. it can really go either way and both characters are horrifically underrated late game so yea, that's all I really have to say on it.
I'm also just going to throw this out there that I've been playing solo top xin a bunch on my 1700 smurf and I think he outright stomps a fuck ton of lanes and is horrifically underrated. I know I'm playing against inferior opponents here, but just the feel for how much damage and sustain he has at low levels leads me to believe that he's quite strong. Also the only reason people think his later game sucks is because they build like a derp instead of tanking the fuck out so that you can actually initiate with EROmen (wriggle's, triforce, omen -> atmog's, come at me bro).
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im sure xin is pretty strong. he was a real common top as you know, but a lot of people were turned off with his random nerfs every 2 weeks and the realization that a lot of new champs (irel after like 2 months post release, renek, top udyr) were very strong and sustained as well. with the nerfs to these im betting that xin has his place toplane once again.
the best comparison that i can draw to xin is irelia. she essentially has greater sustain at all levels with a w max build, less reliable CC, and similar dashing power. xin is probably better at getting into the opponent's face due to these differences, but less good at handling constant strong pressure or people who can peel for themselves (ryze? riven?)
he would also probably get fucked by garen, lol demacia!
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United States37500 Posts
Top Lane, so many choices...
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Would like to see a good write up on countering Teemo top lane. I rarely run into him, but when I do I just have a stupid frustrating time until later in the game. A nice write up on countering him would be awesome.
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On February 05 2012 02:09 Navi wrote: im sure xin is pretty strong. he was a real common top as you know, but a lot of people were turned off with his random nerfs every 2 weeks and the realization that a lot of new champs (irel after like 2 months post release, renek, top udyr) were very strong and sustained as well. with the nerfs to these im betting that xin has his place toplane once again.
the best comparison that i can draw to xin is irelia. she essentially has greater sustain at all levels with a w max build, less reliable CC, and similar dashing power. xin is probably better at getting into the opponent's face due to these differences, but less good at handling constant strong pressure or people who can peel for themselves (ryze? riven?)
he would also probably get fucked by garen, lol demacia! honestly, everything about Xin's early levels is stronker. level 1 xin is 35 hp every 3 attacks, irelia is 10 hp/attack. irelia gets comparable sustain for going out of her way to max her sustain as xin gets for free off his passive. xin has more consistent and just straight up more cc, and also has higher damage output until quite a bit later in the game. he's just a much stronger irelia in lane as far as I can see.
On February 05 2012 02:22 Wes2000 wrote: Would like to see a good write up on countering Teemo top lane. I rarely run into him, but when I do I just have a stupid frustrating time until later in the game. A nice write up on countering him would be awesome. Pantheon, spears to face until he dies
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On February 05 2012 01:53 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 23:21 Slayer91 wrote: I'm accepting challengers on Shen vs Pantheon with the wisdom on drunk butters on my side, I'm already 1-0! (EU only, don't hurt me smash) well, as I've already said, it's a weird match. it can really go either way and both characters are horrifically underrated late game so yea, that's all I really have to say on it. I'm also just going to throw this out there that I've been playing solo top xin a bunch on my 1700 smurf and I think he outright stomps a fuck ton of lanes and is horrifically underrated. I know I'm playing against inferior opponents here, but just the feel for how much damage and sustain he has at low levels leads me to believe that he's quite strong. Also the only reason people think his later game sucks is because they build like a derp instead of tanking the fuck out so that you can actually initiate with EROmen (wriggle's, triforce, omen -> atmog's, come at me bro).
What items do you start off with on Xin, cloth 5?
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On February 05 2012 02:22 Wes2000 wrote: Would like to see a good write up on countering Teemo top lane. I rarely run into him, but when I do I just have a stupid frustrating time until later in the game. A nice write up on countering him would be awesome. Just from a theory point of view anyone that can trade with him can beat him. GP's oranges clear blindness and heal. Mages don't care about blinds.
I don't think teemo has any counters tbh.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 05 2012 02:53 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 01:53 Mogwai wrote:On February 04 2012 23:21 Slayer91 wrote: I'm accepting challengers on Shen vs Pantheon with the wisdom on drunk butters on my side, I'm already 1-0! (EU only, don't hurt me smash) well, as I've already said, it's a weird match. it can really go either way and both characters are horrifically underrated late game so yea, that's all I really have to say on it. I'm also just going to throw this out there that I've been playing solo top xin a bunch on my 1700 smurf and I think he outright stomps a fuck ton of lanes and is horrifically underrated. I know I'm playing against inferior opponents here, but just the feel for how much damage and sustain he has at low levels leads me to believe that he's quite strong. Also the only reason people think his later game sucks is because they build like a derp instead of tanking the fuck out so that you can actually initiate with EROmen (wriggle's, triforce, omen -> atmog's, come at me bro). What items do you start off with on Xin, cloth 5?
Flash/Ignite or Flash/Exhaust 21 Off Cloth if you just want to farm and be unmoveable. Boots if you want to aggro.
Just had this talk with Smash like 30 sec ago, huehue.
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On February 05 2012 02:45 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 02:22 Wes2000 wrote: Would like to see a good write up on countering Teemo top lane. I rarely run into him, but when I do I just have a stupid frustrating time until later in the game. A nice write up on countering him would be awesome. Pantheon, spears to face until he dies
That sounds like the down-to-earth advice, like Day9 getting asked "What do I do when my opponent does this cute build?" and his go-to answer is "Just go fucking kill him!". Panth got no time for cutsies.
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On February 05 2012 02:45 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 02:09 Navi wrote: im sure xin is pretty strong. he was a real common top as you know, but a lot of people were turned off with his random nerfs every 2 weeks and the realization that a lot of new champs (irel after like 2 months post release, renek, top udyr) were very strong and sustained as well. with the nerfs to these im betting that xin has his place toplane once again.
the best comparison that i can draw to xin is irelia. she essentially has greater sustain at all levels with a w max build, less reliable CC, and similar dashing power. xin is probably better at getting into the opponent's face due to these differences, but less good at handling constant strong pressure or people who can peel for themselves (ryze? riven?)
he would also probably get fucked by garen, lol demacia! honestly, everything about Xin's early levels is stronker. level 1 xin is 35 hp every 3 attacks, irelia is 10 hp/attack. irelia gets comparable sustain for going out of her way to max her sustain as xin gets for free off his passive. xin has more consistent and just straight up more cc, and also has higher damage output until quite a bit later in the game. he's just a much stronger irelia in lane as far as I can see. Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 02:22 Wes2000 wrote: Would like to see a good write up on countering Teemo top lane. I rarely run into him, but when I do I just have a stupid frustrating time until later in the game. A nice write up on countering him would be awesome. Pantheon, spears to face until he dies
i'd say irelia is probably better at being played defensively. against harassing bitches like nidalee she can just dart in and out for cs with her q, and against melee aggressors (garen renek pantz) she can always go for a stun and retreat as needed and ult creepwaves post 6 along with her q lasthitting.
xin is great at pushing advantages and being aggressive early if possible, but if this is not possible he'd probably get fucked lol likewise maybe have a tough time coming back from getting ganked early against people who can keep up pressure, like garen as mentioned
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Yeah, xin has much higher burst damage engages until at least level 9. If you have to be defensive, much better to be irelia when all her skills help you passively farm.
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Galio: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +To understand what can counter Galio, we must first look at his strengths.
1. Galio’s ability to straight up trade most APs, especially those with DoT effects, is second to none when his bulwark is activated. The additional Armor / MR alone would be sufficient to make trades even or in his favor, but the heal combined with this makes him actually heal from weak DoT effects.
2. His relatively low mana costs, along with his ability to buy many mana regen items (Catalyst, Chalice, Philo Stone: try not to get Chalice and Catalyst together if possible) that are useful for him make him a very efficient clearer when he can insta-clear waves and harasser at all levels.
3. The slow / speed on his Q + E also make him a choice chaser when the enemy is low, as well as giving him the ability to peel for himself and reducing the effectiveness of skillshot users.
4. Lastly, his passive: this passive allows Galio to build MR / items such as chalice while gaining damage at the same time, increasing the effectiveness of such builds while drastically reducing AP damage even further.
These factors combined make Galio a monster laning versus most APs. Even basic AD champions can have trouble to Galio due to his incidental harass being more powerful than their autoattacks. However, there are a few picks that either beat his strengths in efficiency or completely counter his kit.
Udyr's Tiger Stance has a strange interaction with Galio: Galio’s bulwark should be great against its DoT, and it is magic damage as well. However, with his stun and the ability to bait bulwarks by simply walking near Galio and walking away again, Udyr can comfortably use his tiger to harass or to bait mana usage from Galio. Should he use it with Galio, he will come out ahead in terms of mana used as well.
Galio’s incidental harass with Q+E in clearing is less effective versus Udyr due to Udyr’s turtle, which, again, is even more mana efficient than Galio’s combo while giving him mana / HP on every hit.
Galio’s ability to push is also negated by turtle. Should Galio begin to push on Udyr, Udyr can stagnate the lane by simply tanking creeps with turtle stance until the creepwaves meet outside of his tower, and be in a safe position to farm while zoning Galio from creeps with tiger / bear.
I recommend taking teleport as Udyr if you are vs. Galio, as a Galio with teleport may simply decide to back and walk to dragon if you are tanking creeps, which you can respond to with a teleport of your own kind if necessary, or you may just push to the tower if there is no need for a teleport – give yourself the option, as one won teamfight may change the pace of the game. You do not need ignite to heavily damage Galio either.
Udyr counters Galio in lane for dealing with Galio’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strengths (ability to bait bulwarks and punish when it is down with tiger, 1., beating him in mana efficiency, 2., and negating the slow / speed of Galio’s Q/E with stuns / bear as needed (again going back to mana efficiency as well), 3.). However, Galio still makes good use of his passive in this lane.
In looking at another type of counter to Galio, we see a type of hero that can not only punish Galio in 1., 2., and 3., but also reduce Galio’s usage of 4 such that his teamfighting presence is much weaker.
Garen and Lee Sin both have no mana, making 2. essentially a null point. Their instant application of damage (Garen is able to cancel his spin if Galio activates bulwark and he decides it is not worth using any longer) and kits (Garen’s silence and Lee Sin’s mobility / better slow) make it such that Galio’s slow and speed are difficult to use to avoid these due to mana constraint while making bulwark also less effective, as Garen and Lee do not have to commit greatly in exchanges, and have no mana constraints. Thus, 1., 2., and 3. are not of particular worth to Galio in these matchups.
In these matchups, Galio has 2 options. 1, he can build armor and barely survive / farm inefficiently in lane (with timely bulwark usage versus Garen, especially if Garen decides to flash Q when Galio is low and he is level 6, he can survive) or 2. he can die or get zoned (Garen and Lee’s kits are good for this in that they have a form of melee CC that they can use to prevent Galio from lasthitting from level 1 onwards). In foregoing MR to barely survive in lane (even with teleports to return to lane), Galio loses the great efficiency of his passive along with his effective immunity to magic at early fights.
Gangplank: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler + Gangplank is a versatile toplane in that he has a combination of ranged harass with his Q, a very effective slow, movespeed etc. steroid, and heal in lane. He is fine with farming at tower because he is able to exert pressure around the map with his ultimate, so most stalemate-ing lanes are favorable for him.
The biggest difference in his kit from most toplane bruisers is his ranged harassment capabilities.
The bruisers with an ability to negate or match, or do both, against GP tend to come out favorably against the plank.
Riven is sufficiently stronger midgame that if GP does not get a large advantage in lane, the lane is favorable for her. However, she can straight up win exchanges versus GP when she hits level 3 and has all of her skills. The most difficult period of time against GP is levels 1 (and after the w nerf, level 2) as she is unable to exchange harass efficiently and indeed can die to GP’s passive if she is not careful.
To remedy this, Riven can open E at level 1 and then continue with a normal skill order. With enough practice or reaction time, it is simple to E the majority of GP’s Q harassment. At level 1, your E will entirely shield the damage it deals with armor runes – making passive farming possible. After Riven hits level 3, she has the mobility to reach GP and to disengage as needed: her abilities will win on pure damage if GP is not allowed to amass passive stacks. Essentially, after being stunned, GP has two options: 1. Eat oranges and trade even damage but lose a lot of mana, or 2. Lose the trade. From here on out, if Riven does not die to a gank, she should have very little to no problem dealing with GP as long as she uses her shield to block damage.
Udyr: GP simply does no damage through Udyr’s turtle stance. Unlike Riven’s E which has a very short duration shield, Udyr’s turtle stance lasts for much longer. The passive HP / Mana regained per hit makes it such that if GP ever attempts to commit to an exchange, you can open with turtle whenever he sends a Q at your way, and then follow with tiger and pound on him and one-sidedly win the exchange. GP does not have a lot of options in this matchup, except for to ask for an early gank. Otherwise, an early death / teleport / tower down is almost inevitable. GP simply cannot trade, and against an Udyr who positions himself to damage you whenever you come near the creeps, you will find yourself zoned.
If you are playing as Udyr, note two things: open boots, as there is no need to open cloth to win exchanges with armor yellows; and you do not need to turn on tiger to deal damage when zoning GP, as you may run yourself OOM doing so.
Notable mention: Pantheon: If GP does not run a full armor setup, Pantheon can dominate this matchup. Even if he does, Pantheon noticeably has the lead in early levels – however, against a passive GP who opens cloth5pot and maxes W, Pantheon must overextend himself to keep pressure on GP from lasthitting properly, which is death against any coordinated jungler gank. However, against armor-less GPs who underestimate Pantheon’s strength, this is a notable counter, as like the other two, Pantheon’s passive largely negates the effectiveness of GP’s ranged harass, and can force favorable trades early on.
Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.
i skip fizz cuz i dont like fish
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On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.
Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad. Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill. Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain. But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all.
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Morgana + Show Spoiler +Tryndamere can easily farm at tower from an early level if Morgana just pushes with soil. His spin can be saved to dodge binding/escape ult, and mocking shout has such a quick/low-key animation that it's nearly impossible to predict with spellshield. Tryndamere has no other spells to block, and all of his damage goes through black shield. He benefits greatly from a farm-fest lane, and is strong against many top-laners in case Morg calls for a lane switch.
@Navi I think Ryze does pretty well against Fizz, as he can justify an early negatron, and his cooldowns are short enough that if Fizz moves in (for either last-hits or harass) he can punish both his entry and exit. I haven't played the matchup personally, but that's my impression from seeing it a few times.
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On February 05 2012 08:03 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad. Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill. Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain. But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all.
ziggs has a ranged attack animation and thus they are already very different different...? and vlad can dodge barrels? you dont trade with grag, you can just dodge his junk. if you keep good lateral movements while in mid you can dodge barrels - if gragas attempts to e you you can use your ranged creeps as a barrier of sorts.
you can pool grag's ulti. these are all made with the assumptions that the players are good enough for this level of skill - likewise for dodging skillshots, if you are getting hitting from far range gragas barrels as vlad then of course you will lose trades. the highest likelihood of being hit by barrels should be after body slams or from relatively close range - if gragas attempts to go extremely aggressive with body slam at early levels, not only is he a huge target for a gank but vlad can gain creep advantage with his ranged autoattack and simply use his creeps to nullify most of the damage if not block gragas entirely from landing his e.
likewise, if you assume that gragas will beat ADs based on landing his q, note that it is very easy to dodge / bait barrels if what you attempt is simply to barrel as they autoattack you - they can feint an autoattack and then go into a wayward direction afterwards.
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On February 04 2012 22:51 Slayer91 wrote: I disagree with udyr bear stance countering galio. You have to COMPLETELY fuck up your positioning to follow galio around and he just won't ult if you're right next to him. Galio without ult is more useful than udyr who in is bear, standing next to galio, but not actually DOING anything. The only time I tried this I ended up doing nothing in a teamfight, galio still got like 1 second off of ulti before I broke it and I took too much free damage.
EDIT: Staying close to your squishies as udyr is "completely fucking up your positioning" in my book, huehue.
I should expand upon this: If galio is all up in your grill looking to ult your team, it's your role to be in position to prevent their squishies on following up on it. You run in, stun one of them with shield up, if they stop to focus you run off to the side and you've bought 2-3 seconds when galio was ulting, if they walk past you, you get the beat on them and soften them up for your team to counter engage on them. Obviously you don't let galio zone your team//get them to attack him with bulwark up while you go in 1v4 rambo.
Here's another example: Their team was looking to do dragon, we come down from bluebuff and chase them off, we either start it or are about to start it. Their rammus rolls around me who was decently far in front trying to stun them before they got away. He gets a taunt off on the AD carry and ults with W up. Meanwhile I'm in between him and his team running back and forth in a line all like "come at me bro" for like seconds until finally their irelia player grabs his balls and dives in, their ap tries to follow up and then I just run in and smash their graves and we clean up the teamfight, rammus was basically dead by the time they were in any position to do anything. It felt an awful lot like this actually: Skip to 0:35 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWW8Gb6UYYQ&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL7A7BDF56D4FAF844
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this is lane counters, not teamfight counters l0l
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Yeah I went off on a tangent because I really don't want to get people expecting me to stun galios that are ulting l0l.
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On February 05 2012 08:59 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 08:03 Dandel Ion wrote:On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad. Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill. Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain. But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all. ziggs has a ranged attack animation and thus they are already very different different...? and vlad can dodge barrels? you dont trade with grag, you can just dodge his junk. if you keep good lateral movements while in mid you can dodge barrels - if gragas attempts to e you you can use your ranged creeps as a barrier of sorts. you can pool grag's ulti. these are all made with the assumptions that the players are good enough for this level of skill - likewise for dodging skillshots, if you are getting hitting from far range gragas barrels as vlad then of course you will lose trades. the highest likelihood of being hit by barrels should be after body slams or from relatively close range - if gragas attempts to go extremely aggressive with body slam at early levels, not only is he a huge target for a gank but vlad can gain creep advantage with his ranged autoattack and simply use his creeps to nullify most of the damage if not block gragas entirely from landing his e. likewise, if you assume that gragas will beat ADs based on landing his q, note that it is very easy to dodge / bait barrels if what you attempt is simply to barrel as they autoattack you - they can feint an autoattack and then go into a wayward direction afterwards. Do you really think Grag laning consists of nothing but spamming Qs long/mid range and pray they hit?
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Morgana + Show Spoiler +Morgana is both hard to kill, and hard to prevent from farming. Her weaknesses in turn are long cds, high cost spells. and a lack of point'n'click. Due to the "delayed" nature of her clearing (she needs to have the wave still 4 to 5 seconds, eventually adding some aas in), she is susceptible against champions capable of insta-clearing her wave, pushing theirs out of the AoE before it deals significant damage to the melee minions (the ranged might die as they'll walk across).
Gragas and Viktor are both fairly safe against ganks, Gragas thanks to his E, and Viktor to his W. Their clearing abilities are on shorter cooldowns and are more mana-efficient in Gragas' case. Gragas has to watch his positioning before he reaches insta-clear status, as his melee range may put him into Tormented Soil's AoE at the same time as some of his minions, which Morgana may want. At 6, he can't really kill her because unless Morgana stays close to him she should have time to react if he ults. However, he should himself be able to use E and R, both on shorter cooldown than Morg's ult, to break her tether
Viktor has the advantage of his line-AoE : well cast, it can kill the whole wave even before it is stabilized, reducing the amount of damage Tormented Soil deals to them. If Morgana chooses to tank the minions left (counting on her passive to heal it up on the next wave, rinse-and-repeat) he can easily harass her with aas while staying safe from Dark Binding. His Q allows him to mitigate a bit of her damage on a lower cooldown and better mana-efficiency. However, contrary to Gragas he can't break out of Soul Shackles, lacking mobility. At most he can slow her with W if she isn't yet in range when he gets caught by Dark Binding, and try to outrun her.
Both also have positioning altering ultimates (forced for Gragas, enticed by Viktor as people don't want to eat the full dps) and AoE cc so they can mirror her threat post-laning.
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On February 05 2012 09:25 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 08:59 Navi wrote:On February 05 2012 08:03 Dandel Ion wrote:On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. Gragas talk (Mid only, he loses against almost every popular toplane) + Show Spoiler +Vlad does not counter Gragas. Vlad reaches a potentially devastating power between the levels 8-13, but the first few levels (until 4 or so) Gragas comes out on top of almost every trade you can possibly think of. His E with W on is too much damage for vlad to heal back. During this time in the game, vlad can't come back into range when his pool is on CD, making him zoned and very sad. Without outside influence, the lane is even until ~ lvl 8 now, but come level 6 gragas is on of the best gank-assistants in the game (against vlad at least). Any gank is literally guaranteed to get at least flash, if not a kill. Levels 8-13 suck, as I said, and afterwards laning is usually about over, or at least too unstable for me to safely say who's stronger. At that point you can 1-shot creepwaves anyways, so passive farming always works.
And I'm not sure on this, but Grag should be able to bully every ranged AD, save maybe Ez, out of lane completely. Sadly, Ez is also the only AD that ever goes mid, since that's out of style now. So I can't say it 100% certain. But Ez doesn't win because of his blink, he wins because he does insane damage early and can zone very well if he hits his Qs. The blink is more of a cherry on top.
By the way, you can copy all the Gragas counters 1:1 for Ziggs and it's fine. They play exactly the same in lane, after all. ziggs has a ranged attack animation and thus they are already very different different...? and vlad can dodge barrels? you dont trade with grag, you can just dodge his junk. if you keep good lateral movements while in mid you can dodge barrels - if gragas attempts to e you you can use your ranged creeps as a barrier of sorts.you can pool grag's ulti. these are all made with the assumptions that the players are good enough for this level of skill - likewise for dodging skillshots, if you are getting hitting from far range gragas barrels as vlad then of course you will lose trades. the highest likelihood of being hit by barrels should be after body slams or from relatively close range - if gragas attempts to go extremely aggressive with body slam at early levels, not only is he a huge target for a gank but vlad can gain creep advantage with his ranged autoattack and simply use his creeps to nullify most of the damage if not block gragas entirely from landing his e.likewise, if you assume that gragas will beat ADs based on landing his q, note that it is very easy to dodge / bait barrels if what you attempt is simply to barrel as they autoattack you - they can feint an autoattack and then go into a wayward direction afterwards. Do you really think Grag laning consists of nothing but spamming Qs long/mid range and pray they hit?
bolded some parts for you
i feel this lane is in vlad's favor if he plays correctly. there is obviously room for error on both sides (for instance, if vlad does not have enough creeps to block grag, grag can go for E -> Q trades which will come out in his favor until he can flash for a kill) but this is optimal playstyle discussion.
there are a couple of problems grag faces vs a competent vlad 1. ranged autoattack harassment and lane control the ability to autoattack creeps freely from a distance while gragas cannot unless he wants to be harassed by autos/Qs allows vlad to control the lane as he pleases 2. a skillshot nuke with slow travel time versus a point and click this should be self explanatory, the problem with this is that if the vlad has a decent reaction time that gragas should have difficulty even landing 600 range q's. he has several options - he can bait Q counterharass when he goes into range to Q himself and then move diagonally in a retreat to avoid any chance of getting hit, or continue forward or in the complete opposite diagonal if gragas seems to expect such a method of retreat. there are mindgames involved and this is where relative skill level comes in but a good vlad should not get hit by these Qs. 3. Inability to commit and difficulty landing E's due to Vlad's pool, if gragas is low and yet wants to seal a kill on a equally low vlad, he cannot flash -> e for fear of pool retribution. in general, he should have difficulty landing his E against a vlad who keeps him low through harass and a tight reign on the creepwave. 4. Mana self explanatory, even with flat mregen yellows and meditation he will not be able to keep up with vlad's harassment entirely without a few drings or blue
if you are on the NA server i invite u to test this out with me. i have played gragas at ELOs ranging from 1200 to 2000 and while i have won against plenty of bad vlads i have never won in the early laning phase against a competent vlad.
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On February 04 2012 15:23 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote: I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all.
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another. Gonna have to agree with Mr. Craton here. If this thread is meant as a detailed, paragraphed based counter pick list, it is only fitting for 1v1s. In reality, Bot lane as well as Jungle, there are simply too many variables to account for. You could have team fight counter picks too (e.g. Udyr's Bear Stance is pretty rough for a Galio who tries to ulti) but I wouldn't suggest it. Keep the scope of this thread narrow and things make much more sense. It should revolve largely around laning phase.
this is from awhile back, but I'm really ok with this. I put in some cursory 2v2 bot sort of thoughts, but in reality, there are so many combinations and so many variables it's a really large challenge to qualify whether a support can actually really be a counter to another support. I think it would be a better idea to leave it to the 'support' or mybe some other thread so that it's easier to get into the nitty gritty of who 'has an edge' instead of who 'is a counter'
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Cho’Gath: (Top) + Show Spoiler +Cho’Gath is also a notable champion with very few counters with correct runes and masteries. His sustain and consistent damage make it very difficult to trade with Cho’Gath unless the Cho in question is very bad at lasthitting or is pressured early on so that he cannot come back into lasthitting range (early jungler ganks, etc.). He also has great flexibility in itemization, especially defensive items, and as such can utilize this along with the free HP granted from his ultimate to become immovable in lane. The vast majority of top lane champions thus cannot win straight up against a smart Cho player.
Most typical “AD bruisers” are not an exception to this against a Cho with a 25 + armor setup. However, a few can feel very comfortable trading farm with Cho’Gath. Irelia, Riven, and Tryndamere all can trade farm with Cho’Gath (Riven and Tryndamere have methods of escaping his combo with good reaction time, and Irelia has a situational dash / high sustain as well) and come out ahead in the lategame – although they may feel weak in the first dragon fight if Cho’Gath chooses to take teleport and teleports there, as his AoE cc and true damage burst tends to contribute more to early fights.
Gangplank can simply zone Cho'Gath from level 1, as Cho needs to stay reasonably close to CS - his sustain is entirely dependent on lasthitting, and GP can deal great damage from level 1 and put Cho in a situation where he cannot autoattack for lasthits, as the slow and DoT are impossible for Cho to match at early levels.
i cant believe i forgot the plank
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OP UPDATED
It's kinda hard because the Morgana contributor says he's countered by Gragas, whereas the Gragas contributor says he's countered by Morg ç_ç
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Is that not an example of a lane matchup that relies more on skill than that of a certain champ having a skillset that completely shuts down another champion? Don't want to argue Grag vs Morg but isn't that a fair indicator?
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Kassadin gets countered hard by ad carries. You don't have to sit an ap mid every game, and if the other team picks kassadin you can sit caitlyn mid and he shouldn't be able to reach 20 cs for a long time and you'll get a huge lead early on. That's one of the reasons I think kassadin is highly overrated.
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Really great thread and discussion, thanks.
Quick note - you've accidentally put Cassi inside Brand's spoiler
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I think that's because we have different views on what is needed to "counter" a champ : apparently Navi said Morg counters Gragas because Black Shield negates his ult displacement and turns the lane into a farmfest where Gragas can't get kills. Whereas I say Gragas counters Morg because he can instaclear and prevent her from afk pool-farming, while escaping her ultimate and retaining his own ability to instaclear then roam.
Also, Navi has substantially better understanding of the game than myself and has an higher Elo, which means he plays with/against better Gragas/Morgana than I do (lots of bad Morgs at low level, even when people claim she's simple), so when in doubt, stick with him.
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Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill.
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On February 04 2012 11:28 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:Here's one. Solo top Riven+ Show Spoiler +General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler +Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler +Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler +Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler +Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler +A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler +Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler +Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler +Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler +Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond. Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her. Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means. Lee: Lol i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol The conclusions are from my own experience. However, I actually learned yesterday that the Riven vs GP dynamic is more like you describe than what I did. If Riven plays supremely defensive early on, she can win later on.
Udyr getting destroyed by Riven with BF / BT I kind of don't think is correct, however I must test it out against a good Udyr. I hope I'm wrong and learn something. I also agree Riven scales better, but the post is only about the laning phase.
Riven beats Nasus really early, but if Riven starts trading she automatically pushes the lane. Also fear of the enemy jungler makes it hard to commit hard enough early enough to make a difference. Exactly as you described with Riven vs GP, Nasus can forfeit the early creeps and farm at tower.
You also don't think Lee is strong vs Riven? Could you tell me why you think it is so? Lee is a lot worse late game, but this is about the laning phase. I think his build in sustain and E allow him to be effective against Riven, though it most definitely is not a hard counter.
Could you elaborate on any other weird conclusions you got from me? It's hard to find good sources of information about these matters. Who do you think counters Riven?
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On February 05 2012 21:40 Yttrasil wrote: Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill.
After I finish 5's we should 1v1, will be good to test against an experienced rumble player. Nasus has more sustain than most tops, and most tops can't 1v1 rumble early levels anyway, so I don't see why you think he'd do worse than other tops.
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Singed solo top + Show Spoiler [Vladimir] + Vladimir is extremely good against Singed. Vlad can harass and last hit with auto attacks while saving every transfuse cooldown for hitting Singed. Singed has no ranged abilities and Vlad can pool his fling pre-emptively or pool to remove the adhesive slow. This means that the only way for Singed to catch Vlad is by using summoner spells, if Vlad plays smart, while Vladimir can harass singed freely whenever he tries to last hit.
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On February 05 2012 22:35 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 21:40 Yttrasil wrote: Dude, please please please remove Nasus from the vs Rumble in op. That is plain wrong, Nasus is among the WORST tops one can play vs Rumble, period! If I meet more Nasus top I'd be very happy tbh, but giving such bad advice should be illegal =) Vs Rumble, add Garen and Renekton on up to 1.6k elo, lanewick on 1.6+ and Brand as a flat out Rumble counter. Also Trundle and Olaf are strong enough to be in the counter category, the rest is pretty much up to skill. After I finish 5's we should 1v1, will be good to test against an experienced rumble player. Nasus has more sustain than most tops, and most tops can't 1v1 rumble early levels anyway, so I don't see why you think he'd do worse than other tops.
It's a good argument and I look forward to it. Never thought it was you either tbh, who wrote that so puts more weight into it. However, many people use the same argument with, Cho, Udyr and also partly Singed. The sustain is almost high enough but the damage Rumble can put out at lvl 4+ is just a tad too much for them to be able to stay and compete from what i've seen. They can do ok in some cases with ganks and such, but most often they lose. Ultimately, while Rumble might not always crush them or go even I'd not call them or Nasus a counter to Rumble.
Can't wait to try it out though =)
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I got first blood in the 1v1 we played but he did push down my tower first and had about 10 cs ahead. (though i had gay ping spikes so I missed some).
I still stand by my opinion, although yttdrasil was by far the best rumble I faced. Basically the better the rumble the more I have to wait to kill them. (I had to be like level 12-13 I think).
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Dude, it was even I agree, but seriously that FB I'd not count as I knew I'd die there. We were chatting and all my summoners was down etc I'm not that stupid =) Especially as you grew stronger and stronger with time and lvl 12+ you are stronger 1v1 than me. Just went in since it would basically be 100% farming from that time on and then I'd lose as it reached lvl 16 or such since Nasus is a beast by then. But lets face it, a top tower doesn't stand longer than to around lvl 14 at best. Still you did great for Nasus and I wasn't countered nor did I crush you as badly as I thought I would.
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On February 05 2012 21:20 Alaric wrote:I think that's because we have different views on what is needed to "counter" a champ : apparently Navi said Morg counters Gragas because Black Shield negates his ult displacement and turns the lane into a farmfest where Gragas can't get kills. Whereas I say Gragas counters Morg because he can instaclear and prevent her from afk pool-farming, while escaping her ultimate and retaining his own ability to instaclear then roam. Also, Navi has substantially better understanding of the game than myself and has an higher Elo, which means he plays with/against better Gragas/Morgana than I do (lots of bad Morgs at low level, even when people claim she's simple), so when in doubt, stick with him. 
i apologize, didn't mean to equate that "black sh ield blocking his ult = counter"
i was just thinking, what is invulnerable or affects grag ult and was making a list
that matchup actually fairly stagnant at the beginning, morg usually cannot reliably get harass on grag (he is more likely to land his q on her than vice versa) and her autoattack range is mediocre (if he attempts to autoattack gragas regularly she sets herself up for barrels or even body slams if positioned so) so her auto harass is minimal at best
agreed that gragas has more mobility and more ability to gank post blues, but if the jungler should decide to hold lane morgana can also exert a lot of countergank power by following him
wouldn't mention it as a big counter either way, but not a bad matchup for grag relative to other matchups vs APs
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On February 05 2012 22:34 Humbuuzio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 11:28 Navi wrote:On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:Here's one. Solo top Riven+ Show Spoiler +General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:
1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.
A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler +Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler +Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler +Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler +Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler +A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler +Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler +Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler +Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler +Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond. Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her. Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means. Lee: Lol i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol The conclusions are from my own experience. However, I actually learned yesterday that the Riven vs GP dynamic is more like you describe than what I did. If Riven plays supremely defensive early on, she can win later on. Udyr getting destroyed by Riven with BF / BT I kind of don't think is correct, however I must test it out against a good Udyr. I hope I'm wrong and learn something. I also agree Riven scales better, but the post is only about the laning phase. Riven beats Nasus really early, but if Riven starts trading she automatically pushes the lane. Also fear of the enemy jungler makes it hard to commit hard enough early enough to make a difference. Exactly as you described with Riven vs GP, Nasus can forfeit the early creeps and farm at tower. You also don't think Lee is strong vs Riven? Could you tell me why you think it is so? Lee is a lot worse late game, but this is about the laning phase. I think his build in sustain and E allow him to be effective against Riven, though it most definitely is not a hard counter. Could you elaborate on any other weird conclusions you got from me? It's hard to find good sources of information about these matters. Who do you think counters Riven?
riven does not fear trading farm with even nasus, as she deals much more AoE damage all game and is minimally affected by his wither due to a large part of her mobility and damage coming from her spells. coupled with the fact that she can bully him and has greater pushing ability, she can control the lane as she pleases
lee loses trades, riven can force him to w away just by being near him (fear of being stunned etc). when those kinds of situations come into play then you are automatically being put onto the back foot. its not even as if riven has mana costs so she loses nothing in these situations.
olaf outdamages riven at close ranges post level 5, as stacking a defensive stat is useless vs. his E. in this case you want to build dblades for the buffer HP and run ignite and maybe even heal if you're really afraid - and then the trades will be very close. he reaches his peak of power at around level 7, so you want to play passively and ask for ganks then - once you're around level 11 everything stagnates out, and by lategame you are far more useful
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Heimerdinger: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +Heimerdinger’s strength in lane comes from his pushing ability combined with his health regen passive, which has extreme effectiveness in small trades at early levels. His extremely long range rockets almost ensure that an opponent who does not retreat at the appropriate time will get hit, and by doing so he exerts lane control.
The CC of his kit is fairly unremarkable, as he has a conditional stun that is hard to land. As such, the most reliable counter to Heimerdinger is strong ganks from junglers such as Maokai, Lee Sin, Rammus etc. combined with a laner who can stagnate the lane while having CC to support such ganks.
Anivia has a relatively smooth opponent against Heimerdinger due to her long autoattack range, which keeps her safe from Heimer’s W if she positions herself correctly amongst her creeps – Heimerdinger is unable to suppress her development, and her superior lategame (versus Heimerdinger’s pushing) and clearing power with blue buff has always made this a solid matchup.
Of the newer APs, anybody with significant range, clearing power, or burst should be OK versus Heimerdinger as long as they do not eat too many of his missiles. His lack of a big impact ultimate makes it fairly simple for enemy APs with stuns to build damage at level 5 and go for a kill at level 6, so anyone who can do so safely is a decent pick. Xerath’s long range autoattack and spells, in particular his ultimate, make commiting for a kill at level 6 a straightforward affair.
Irelia: (Top) + Show Spoiler +Irelia is typically played with max-W builds in today’s game as its great sustain and true damage allow her to bully enemy toplaners who like to come close to deal damage in extended periods of laning. This combined with defensive runes and masteries (i.e. 27 MR or 25 armor runepages) allow her to exert control over a variety of matchups, from fellow bruisers to autoattack harassers (Nidalee, Kennen, etc. may actually take more damage from creep aggro in harassing a properly runed Irelia than vice versa from harass). Her ability to equalize many lanes with 3 ranks in W, combined with her strong mid-lategame make Irelia a very popular and steady choice in toplane.
A counter to a properly runed Irelia is rare to find. Of the bruisers that go top, Olaf is perhaps the most solid choice in that his E will deal true damage that even Irelia has trouble healing back up in time for the next E. Start with Q at level 1 and from there on out max E, taking care to E on cooldown while q’ing if she ever attempts to run away or commit to you. If you manage to pick up your axe and harass properly, Irelia should not be able to win an exchange.
i need to think of more irelia counterpicks against heimer, if you can avoid most of his rockets or trade favorably through his passive you should be fine - his kill threat is not very large, you either need to be able to pressure kills onto him or deal with his pushing
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i like nasus vs irelia
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Some champs that I play:
Garen + Show Spoiler +You generally don't want to try to outlane him. Garen is strongest when someone tries to be aggressive against him. The best thing to do is to try to play passively until he falls off in late game. Garen players know this, so they will be aggressive levels 1-10 His silence and judgement combination are powerful tools against really any solo top melee. Good picks against him would be anyone with a stun. Believe it or not taric works very well as a solo top vs. garen. If he tries to silence you, dazzle him. If he does manage to get damage off on you, heal it back up and farm. Riven is also a good choice. If garen ever tries to silence you, use her w, hit him once, and dash out before he can return the damage.
Ahri + Show Spoiler +Ahri is an amazing laner due to her ability to constantly poke with her q. She's able to clear lanes easily due to the high true damage of her q, and she is also able to sustain due to the spell vamp on every 9 targets hit with her spells. She's very good against characters who try to put out sustained damage over time such as Cass. She's also good against any character which does the most damage up close such as kennen, karthus, leblanc, and morgana (you'll never get her to stay still long enough). The only champs I've found effective against her are champs who do enough passive DoT to keep her from healing too much. These champs are brand and fizz. Brand because he simply puts out more damage than her when he hits. Also, he has a stun to keep her from just spirit rushing away after level 6. Fizz is very good against her because of his playful/trickster. A good fizz should never take any damage from ahri because even if he's about to be hit, he can always use playful/trickster to take no damage. Most of the time fizz has a tough time killing ahri due to her ult, but when her ult is on CD, landing a fish on her is almost a death sentence. Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard. Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult.
Nasus + Show Spoiler +Anyone who has good early game harass. Nasus's only weakness is that his life steal early game is not good enough to keep up with constant harass when he's trying to farm his Q. Garen is fairly good at this, but if you want someone with more team fight utility, pick riven. She's very good at keeping nasus down. When you're both at level 4, every time nasus tries to come in to farm his Q, he should loose a net quarter of his health. I also hear everyone say that irelia is very good against nasus. From my experience this is only true later in the game. Her life steal is impossible for nasus to keep in check later, but earlier in the game nasus can make her his b*tch.
Kennen + Show Spoiler +Kennen has been overlooked as a solid AP carry for the longest time now. I started playing him a long time ago, and people are just now starting to realize how incredible he is. The key to laning against kennen is managing how many marks of the storm you have on you. If you have 2, be very careful because his ult will stun you and keep you in his ult for the entire duration (meaning you take all the damage if you're the only one in his ult). Ryze, sion, and ahri are good, but so are other champs who can 1. push and 2. have attacks which hit through minions.
Ryze and sion are good because they both have binds/stuns which go through minions. This is important because kennen's ult is his main source of killing burst damage. Often times what kennens will do is lightning rush into you. use a q or w, ult you, and ignite for the kill. With ryze and sion they can see this coming, and when he gets close they stun him, hit him with a some spells (sion's shield burst or ryze Q), and run away. Kennen should never be able to kill you unless he uses a flash. If you have 2 marks of the storm on you, play passively because his third mark is what stuns.
Ahri is good against him because of the fact that she can push the lane to his tower. Unless kennen levels W first, he won't be able to last hit under the tower very well with just his Q. He'll start missing cs very fast, and the gold advantage will build. Ahri's passive spell vamp will allow you to outsustain kennen easy especially if you pick up revolver--->WotA. The thing that makes ahri a complete boss against kennen is that he will never be able to kill you. If he uses his ult on you and kills you, then you are deserved to die to it. The only way he can successfully kill you is if you let him get 2 marks of the storm on you. You should be able to easily dash out of his ult before it can do serious damage with the first proc. The other 2 procs, go up to him and kill him with R+W+R+Q. Ignite if you need. Singed + Show Spoiler +I laugh when I see people complain about singed being OP. For me, a singed pick is a free win. Singed's mechanic is that he's able to push a lane very well. This comes in handy when you factor in that his DoT is very high, but he lacks in any high burst damage. Nasus is the perfect counter to singed. Singed has to be aggressive to stop you from farming your Q. He'll try to do this by throwing down smoke all over you. Just keep hitting the minions. The smoke at levels 1-3 doesn't do enough damage that you can't heal it up. If he runs it for more than a couple seconds at early levels, he completely drains his mana and can't farm. Keep farming your Q and at around level 10 one of your Qs should be enough to hit him for a quarter of his health. At this point there is nothing he can do against you. Keep farming your lane and pushing the towers until you become god.
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Pantheon is very strong VS Irelia, since she needs to hit creeps to sustain. GP as well as very good early levels but needs ignite if he wants to win a 1v1 pre 6. WW never loses a 1v1 to Irelia at any point in the game and can bully her post 7 very hard.
But as I don't own Irelia I can't really explain exactly how they beat her >.> Friggin 6k3 champs.
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Doesnt malphite do well against GP?
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On February 06 2012 17:38 De4ngus wrote:i like nasus vs irelia 
Nasus is very strong against irelia.
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i dont play irelia extensively either but one of my mates mains her, so ill go over these with him :D
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On February 06 2012 18:42 Zerksys wrote:
Ahri Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard. ... Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult.
Speaking as a Ryze player, while I've certainly done OK vs Ahri mid-lategame in teamfights when I've been in another lane or I've been babysat, her ranged lane-shoving and sustain means I'm often attempting to last-hit under my tower while she gallops downriver to gank top/bot. While I'm certainly a rather shabby Ryze, I feel in the laning phase Ahri has a distinct advantage.
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Jarvan: (Top) + Show Spoiler +Jarvan's top kit consists of a knockup and %armor shred. Jarvan's peaks in lane power between levels 2/3 and level 6, as the sustain of the toplaners with great sustain kicks in with force beyond this period. One example of this lane dynamic can be seen between Jarvan and Irelia; naturally, Jarvan does not possess great kill potential at level 1 due to having no knockup. However, at levels 2/3, if he has been harassing Irelia successfully, he can proceed to attempt to land a E-Q and commit if Irelia is low enough for ignite to finish her off. Beyond level 6, Jarvan will have a difficult time laning versus Irelia as her superior sustain will allow her to win in small trades, putting the pressure on Jarvan's jungler to get a successful gank or risk a freefarmed Irelia / tower down.
Jarvan has difficulty versus opponents who can negate this period of strength by dodging his skillshot combo: Riven and Lee Sin have enough mobility to do so while having enough of damage to put heavy pressure on Jarvan in turn.
Some sustain-based toplanes also fare well against Jarvan. Jarvan is unable to build enough damage onto Yorrick to go for a kill without outside assistance, as Yorrick's sustain and returned damage from E is too great for him to handle.
Karthus: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler +Karthus is a very powerful lategame champion who also has a decent kit to reach that point in the game - with an almost 1k effective range on his Q, he is able to farm from a safe distance against most skillshot based midlaners, while being a great gank assister with his W and E, not to mention one of the best people to countergank for due to his utility and large damage and passive.
A very skilled Karthus does not outright lose many lanes, as his damage on his Q when landed is extremely high, especially on champions who exert themselves beyond their creeps to try to zone or harass him. A expert Karthus should not miss any Qs on a walled target, and thus make poking and trading difficult for the enemy.
Kassadin serves as an interesting counterpick to Karthus in that his silence prevents Karthus from outright bullying Kassadin to the point at which he can abuse blue and or his ultimate to harass Karthus will minimal fear of retribution. While Karthus should have the advantage in early laning (may force Kassadin off of lasthits with the threat of his Q, etc.) Kassadin's high mobility and silence wreck him in lane and in teamfights.
Morgana is a safe pick against Karthus in that she has greater pushing power at most reasonable periods in the game, and Karthus has trouble committing to a Morgana due to her black shield (lack of slow on wall and/or protection against ultimate), her strength at close range due to her ultimate, and her ability to bind and run if needed.
Kassadin: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +Kassadin is an extremely mobile AP who can serve various roles on a teamcomp. He is usually built with AP, aiming to exert map influence with blue buff or to bully a lane opponent who cannot handle his mobility and silence with it, and serving an assassin / disrupting AP role in teamfights. His mobility allow him to bait tremendous amounts of valuable spells or attention onto himself if used correctly while providing a powerful damage scaling with mana and mana regen (his ultimate). It is thus the lack of this mobility and power that renders him impotent during levels 1-5.
Kassadin's current range on his Q (650) is short enough that there are other point and click spells that outrange it - this recent nerf has only increased the number of matchups that Kassadin loses outright in laning phase. Previously, Kassadin was able to cast his Q and turn around immediately with a movement command, making spells or autoattacks that were 625 range or shorter difficult to land as opponents. However, with his current specs, this effective range of immunity is rather negligible. Combined with his melee attack, Kassadin has difficulty lasthitting against enemy champions with powerful skillshots or autoattack harassment who can trade successfully against Kassadin's Q.
Strong counters to Kassadin include: Virtually any AD with long range, small scale mobility, or pushing power. Of these, Caitlyn is the most prominent counter to Kassadin, as her traps combined with her autoattack make it virtually impossible for Kassadin to lasthit while having long enough of an autoattack range that it is impossible for Kassadin to land his Q onto her without retaliation. As long as Caitlyn transitions into lifesteal and does not go low enough for Kassadin to burst her, this lane is extremely one sided.
Ryze is strong against Kassadin as he is able to get his entire combo off onto Kassadin. He is even able to go for Q->W->E combos, as the travel time of Kassadin's Q is long enough that in the time it takes to reach Ryze, he is able to walk 50 range and cast W->E. The root is strong against Kassadin post 6 as well, and if played for attrition Kassadin cannot match Ryze's sustained damage.
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On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:Galio: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +To understand what can counter Galio, we must first look at his strengths.
1. Galio’s ability to straight up trade most APs, especially those with DoT effects, is second to none when his bulwark is activated. The additional Armor / MR alone would be sufficient to make trades even or in his favor, but the heal combined with this makes him actually heal from weak DoT effects.
2. His relatively low mana costs, along with his ability to buy many mana regen items (Catalyst, Chalice, Philo Stone: try not to get Chalice and Catalyst together if possible) that are useful for him make him a very efficient clearer when he can insta-clear waves and harasser at all levels.
3. The slow / speed on his Q + E also make him a choice chaser when the enemy is low, as well as giving him the ability to peel for himself and reducing the effectiveness of skillshot users.
4. Lastly, his passive: this passive allows Galio to build MR / items such as chalice while gaining damage at the same time, increasing the effectiveness of such builds while drastically reducing AP damage even further.
These factors combined make Galio a monster laning versus most APs. Even basic AD champions can have trouble to Galio due to his incidental harass being more powerful than their autoattacks. However, there are a few picks that either beat his strengths in efficiency or completely counter his kit.
Udyr's Tiger Stance has a strange interaction with Galio: Galio’s bulwark should be great against its DoT, and it is magic damage as well. However, with his stun and the ability to bait bulwarks by simply walking near Galio and walking away again, Udyr can comfortably use his tiger to harass or to bait mana usage from Galio. Should he use it with Galio, he will come out ahead in terms of mana used as well.
Galio’s incidental harass with Q+E in clearing is less effective versus Udyr due to Udyr’s turtle, which, again, is even more mana efficient than Galio’s combo while giving him mana / HP on every hit.
Galio’s ability to push is also negated by turtle. Should Galio begin to push on Udyr, Udyr can stagnate the lane by simply tanking creeps with turtle stance until the creepwaves meet outside of his tower, and be in a safe position to farm while zoning Galio from creeps with tiger / bear.
I recommend taking teleport as Udyr if you are vs. Galio, as a Galio with teleport may simply decide to back and walk to dragon if you are tanking creeps, which you can respond to with a teleport of your own kind if necessary, or you may just push to the tower if there is no need for a teleport – give yourself the option, as one won teamfight may change the pace of the game. You do not need ignite to heavily damage Galio either.
Udyr counters Galio in lane for dealing with Galio’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strengths (ability to bait bulwarks and punish when it is down with tiger, 1., beating him in mana efficiency, 2., and negating the slow / speed of Galio’s Q/E with stuns / bear as needed (again going back to mana efficiency as well), 3.). However, Galio still makes good use of his passive in this lane.
In looking at another type of counter to Galio, we see a type of hero that can not only punish Galio in 1., 2., and 3., but also reduce Galio’s usage of 4 such that his teamfighting presence is much weaker.
Garen and Lee Sin both have no mana, making 2. essentially a null point. Their instant application of damage (Garen is able to cancel his spin if Galio activates bulwark and he decides it is not worth using any longer) and kits (Garen’s silence and Lee Sin’s mobility / better slow) make it such that Galio’s slow and speed are difficult to use to avoid these due to mana constraint while making bulwark also less effective, as Garen and Lee do not have to commit greatly in exchanges, and have no mana constraints. Thus, 1., 2., and 3. are not of particular worth to Galio in these matchups.
In these matchups, Galio has 2 options. 1, he can build armor and barely survive / farm inefficiently in lane (with timely bulwark usage versus Garen, especially if Garen decides to flash Q when Galio is low and he is level 6, he can survive) or 2. he can die or get zoned (Garen and Lee’s kits are good for this in that they have a form of melee CC that they can use to prevent Galio from lasthitting from level 1 onwards). In foregoing MR to barely survive in lane (even with teleports to return to lane), Galio loses the great efficiency of his passive along with his effective immunity to magic at early fights. Gangplank: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler + Gangplank is a versatile toplane in that he has a combination of ranged harass with his Q, a very effective slow, movespeed etc. steroid, and heal in lane. He is fine with farming at tower because he is able to exert pressure around the map with his ultimate, so most stalemate-ing lanes are favorable for him.
The biggest difference in his kit from most toplane bruisers is his ranged harassment capabilities.
The bruisers with an ability to negate or match, or do both, against GP tend to come out favorably against the plank.
Riven is sufficiently stronger midgame that if GP does not get a large advantage in lane, the lane is favorable for her. However, she can straight up win exchanges versus GP when she hits level 3 and has all of her skills. The most difficult period of time against GP is levels 1 (and after the w nerf, level 2) as she is unable to exchange harass efficiently and indeed can die to GP’s passive if she is not careful.
To remedy this, Riven can open E at level 1 and then continue with a normal skill order. With enough practice or reaction time, it is simple to E the majority of GP’s Q harassment. At level 1, your E will entirely shield the damage it deals with armor runes – making passive farming possible. After Riven hits level 3, she has the mobility to reach GP and to disengage as needed: her abilities will win on pure damage if GP is not allowed to amass passive stacks. Essentially, after being stunned, GP has two options: 1. Eat oranges and trade even damage but lose a lot of mana, or 2. Lose the trade. From here on out, if Riven does not die to a gank, she should have very little to no problem dealing with GP as long as she uses her shield to block damage.
Udyr: GP simply does no damage through Udyr’s turtle stance. Unlike Riven’s E which has a very short duration shield, Udyr’s turtle stance lasts for much longer. The passive HP / Mana regained per hit makes it such that if GP ever attempts to commit to an exchange, you can open with turtle whenever he sends a Q at your way, and then follow with tiger and pound on him and one-sidedly win the exchange. GP does not have a lot of options in this matchup, except for to ask for an early gank. Otherwise, an early death / teleport / tower down is almost inevitable. GP simply cannot trade, and against an Udyr who positions himself to damage you whenever you come near the creeps, you will find yourself zoned.
If you are playing as Udyr, note two things: open boots, as there is no need to open cloth to win exchanges with armor yellows; and you do not need to turn on tiger to deal damage when zoning GP, as you may run yourself OOM doing so.
Notable mention: Pantheon: If GP does not run a full armor setup, Pantheon can dominate this matchup. Even if he does, Pantheon noticeably has the lead in early levels – however, against a passive GP who opens cloth5pot and maxes W, Pantheon must overextend himself to keep pressure on GP from lasthitting properly, which is death against any coordinated jungler gank. However, against armor-less GPs who underestimate Pantheon’s strength, this is a notable counter, as like the other two, Pantheon’s passive largely negates the effectiveness of GP’s ranged harass, and can force favorable trades early on. Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear. i skip fizz cuz i dont like fish
an addition to the gragas list: kassadin Gragas: (Top / Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.
Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.
Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.
Kassadin is a melee like Gragas who generally is bullied harder than Gragas, as he has less innate sustain and less efficient wave clearing / lasthitting spells. However, against his fellow melee, Kassadin is allowed to lasthit with ease, and utilize the mana gain portion of his W more efficiently if he opts to do so for sustained laning trades. Gragas is unable to pressure Kassadin efficiently, as if Gragas goes for a midrange barrel, Kassadin can simply cast his silence, which will prevent Gragas from exploding it. If Gragas goes for a long ranged barrel, a decent player should be able to avoid it. If Gragas attempts to body slam Kassadin, Kassadin can once again simply Q Gragas and prevent him from following up with a barrel, making for an inefficient trade for Gragas (especially if Kassadin uses creeps to mitigate some of the effect of his body slam). Kassadin also has the advantage of being able to ult away from Gragas' ultimate, making it difficult for Gragas to lock Kassadin down. With blue buff post 6, Kassadin is able to put constant pressure and damage onto Gragas with little threat of retaliation without a successful jungler gank as well, making it difficult for Gragas to simply clear the wave and exert pressure elsewhere.
In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.
AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.
While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.
Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.
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On February 06 2012 23:31 Haasts wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 18:42 Zerksys wrote:
Ahri Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard. ... Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult. Speaking as a Ryze player, while I've certainly done OK vs Ahri mid-lategame in teamfights when I've been in another lane or I've been babysat, her ranged lane-shoving and sustain means I'm often attempting to last-hit under my tower while she gallops downriver to gank top/bot. While I'm certainly a rather shabby Ryze, I feel in the laning phase Ahri has a distinct advantage.
The thing is that if she shoves the lane up into your tower she wastes a ton of mana early game. As ryze you can outlast her. The best part comes when you jungler comes to gank. The instant she gets cced she's dead if you're a good ryze.
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Singed - Top
+ Show Spoiler +Counter by Vayne's true Damage, Q and E to kite or chase, Vayne can freely freeze the lane and keep singed from getting any cs without taking a big risk, pre-6 you can completely zone him to his own tower even out of xp range, post-6 if singed so much as goes pass half way point on river he's in real danger to die 100-0 from R+Q chase with silver bolt procs, you might need to take a tower hit or two during the dive but you will get the kill and should escape with enough health to fight off most junglers coming to assist.
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In a solo lane, is there anything that counters caitlyn or lux in lane? Lux just fires bindings till she hits, and if she doesn't runs away till her cd is back. It's hard to trade evenly with cait bcuz of her range.
I guess this isn't really a counterpick since you never know when a cait is gonna solo.
I mean I didn't really lose lane.. cait got ganked and died a few times :p, lux never really got kills, I just couldn't trade them effectively.
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I think with caith its like with garen, every other ad carry will be more useful later, so if you you farm evenly and don't die you come out ahead. From what I have gathered caith is supposed to counter all other ad carries in lane and falls off later.
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On February 07 2012 15:42 NotSorry wrote:Singed - Top + Show Spoiler +Counter by Vayne's true Damage, Q and E to kite or chase, Vayne can freely freeze the lane and keep singed from getting any cs without taking a big risk, pre-6 you can completely zone him to his own tower even out of xp range, post-6 if singed so much as goes pass half way point on river he's in real danger to die 100-0 from R+Q chase with silver bolt procs, you might need to take a tower hit or two during the dive but you will get the kill and should escape with enough health to fight off most junglers coming to assist.
I am not quite sure, but I think we try to stick to the current meta for counters,
Singed - Top
+ Show Spoiler +Galio counters him, he heals of singed´s poison with his shield and he has a strong slow nuke as well as a speedup himself, while also dishing out enough AoE damage to counter singed´s pushing.
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On February 10 2012 23:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: In a solo lane, is there anything that counters caitlyn or lux in lane? Lux just fires bindings till she hits, and if she doesn't runs away till her cd is back. It's hard to trade evenly with cait bcuz of her range.
I guess this isn't really a counterpick since you never know when a cait is gonna solo.
I mean I didn't really lose lane.. cait got ganked and died a few times :p, lux never really got kills, I just couldn't trade them effectively.
GP is strong against lux in a solo lane Lux has difficulty locking down GP or setting him up to ganks due to his oranges. It is also difficult or impossible to rune for enough mana regen AND armor to trade with GP's relatively low mana and highly efficient parley with lux's typical caster level mana consumption and low base armor. if GP opens regrowth and runes with MR, he should have no way to lose that lane (assuming solo)
cait has no clear counter in a duo lane, but a lot of AD's don't mind trading farm with her. For right now, sivir has a relatively smooth laning phase vs. her with most strong supports - hardly a counter, though
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Add Rumble to the Akali counters section. That match is so free ;(
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Kennen: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler +Kennen has relatively few hard counters, as his long range autoattack, harassment and poke with Q, mobility with E, and CC combined with his passive and energy resource bar make him a very well rounded and powerful laner. With WotA or revolver, his sustain also becomes extremely potent: his only real weakness in laning is his pushing ability and relatively weak engagement power at levels 1 and 2.
Cassiopeia simply outdoes Kennen in most aspects - harassment wise, with good creep usage, she has more effective harassment range: with her E, she has greater damage in trades and when both parties commit: and with both ultimates, if she lands her stun, she has longer CC and more up front damage than Kennen.
The APs who can stalemate or shrug off Kennen's harassment and simply outpush him beyond a certain point have advantages over Kennen in that they have more time to put influence on the rest of the map, as Kennen is a very inefficient pusher in both energy cost and time. Morgana is particularly safe pre 6, as she has decent pushing at low levels, a safe way to prevent getting stunned, and a strong CC should Kennen attempt to go overly aggressive. She and other similarly stable APs with pushing power are generally safe picks against Kennen.
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On February 11 2012 03:40 O-ops wrote: Add Rumble to the Akali counters section. That match is so free ;(
Could you elaborate on this? On the surface I would have agreed, but I just got manhandled by an Akali. If you try to roast her early on a Q+auto and then retreating will out trade you. After 6 you can't do shit, if you commit with your ult she just backs off, the rest of the time she does unreal damage with Q+R and running, and you can't respond in any real way.
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i dont think its a hard counter by any means
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Teemo shuts down Tryndamere hard in top lane. He's able to harass with his ranged attack, his speed buff outlasts the duration of Mocking Shout AND gives him enough MS to stay out of range of auto attacks, and his Blinding Dart completely nullifies any chance of being hit at all by Trynd's auto attacks. Shrooms are the icing on the cake.
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Cassiopeia: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler +Cassiopeia as of right now has very little trouble in most 1v1 lanes. Her ability to poke with low cd and mana cost (Q) and her ability to commit to trades with little fear of losing due to the reset mechanic on her e make her a fearsome opponent in lane. The movement speed duration buff, combined with the range increase buff on her E, essentially guarantees that she can hit an E after she lands a Q, excepting very large movement speed differences.
A notable counterpick is Galio. His bulwark essentially mitigates or even heals off of a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DoT damage (Cass W + Q) and reduces a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DPS from her E. Even when his bulwark is on cooldown, his Q has enough range (and a slow active) as to prevent consistent harassment. Overall, with smart bulwark and teleport usage, Galio should never be in danger of dying, and can force backs from Cassiopeia before she obtains a revolver or some other form of sustain in lane. He clears with higher mana efficiency and speed, and can thus exert pressure on wraiths and other lanes with greater ease.
AP Yi also plays against Cassiopeia in a unique way due to his Q - when Cassiopeia attempts to start her ultimate or a combo with W and Q's, Master Yi can simply Q into her or a nearby creep to deal damage while avoiding most of the return itself. Combined with his insane sustain from meditate, Master Yi should rarely lose this lane in a straight up 1v1. Whether or not he will be useful after the laning phase is a more difficult question.
added yi to cass
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Any tips on Mordekaiser? Had some troubles with him top/mid as of late.
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On February 11 2012 11:59 sinii wrote: Any tips on Mordekaiser? Had some troubles with him top/mid as of late.
I've found Cassiopeia to be a decent pick against Morde personally. In the early game, Cass has the ability to trade much better. If you can catch Morde with a Q and follow up with many Twin Fangs, he can't trade back with anything other than his E as he is melee range. The damage shield he gets isn't enough to soak Cass' damage and as soon as he has E'd, he has to fall back until his cooldowns are back up. With his back turned and unable to fight back because of his lack of ranged abilities, Cass can abuse her spammibilty and get free damage and virtually take none back. Cass' slow really allows you to punish his lack of response.
However, if you fall behind, you'll find yourself hard pressed to keep up as Morde will be able to push constantly and keep his shield up and ignore your damage/trade effectively. You must abuse the early game advantage.
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as a top player i can add something GP - Riven is not a counter pick to GP, GP has a good edge over Riven. - Nidalee counter GP - Rumble can beat GP lvl 4 Rumble - Nasus has no chance againt rumble, in fact Rumble counter Nasus - You won't be able to farm against a Rumble or touch him unless ganked. Yorick - Irelia, Chogath, Trundle and Nasus can counter Yorick due to sustain.
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have u ever played vs a riven who has gotten E at level 1? or a decent riven, at that
edit: too passive aggressive. sawree.
you can take riven off of GP counter list as apparently reaction E'ing at level 1 is 2hard. it's one of the lanes where you can play passive early and transition into overpowering him at levels 3 and beyond - probably not the counter that most people are looking for.
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lol there are so many things on there that i disagree with. who made it?
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im falling behind on my letter a day, prob change to like 1-3 a day cuz im a lazy fatty
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On February 11 2012 13:32 DarkRise wrote: as a top player i can add something GP - Riven is not a counter pick to GP, GP has a good edge over Riven. - Nidalee counter GP - Rumble can beat GP lvl 4 Rumble - Nasus has no chance againt rumble, in fact Rumble counter Nasus - You won't be able to farm against a Rumble or touch him unless ganked. Yorick - Irelia, Chogath, Trundle and Nasus can counter Yorick due to sustain. Alot of this is wrong. Have no idea how you even came to these conclusions.
Riven can easily beat GP. Nidalee does decent against GP - but if the gp just sits back and farms he can dominate her mid game easily. Hell I managed to 2v1 her and her jungler ezpz by that time.
Nasus and Rumble lane could go either way imo.
I don't care about Yorick in general.
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On February 11 2012 13:32 DarkRise wrote: as a top player i can add something GP - Riven is not a counter pick to GP, GP has a good edge over Riven. - Nidalee counter GP - Rumble can beat GP lvl 4 Rumble - Nasus has no chance againt rumble, in fact Rumble counter Nasus - You won't be able to farm against a Rumble or touch him unless ganked. Yorick - Irelia, Chogath, Trundle and Nasus can counter Yorick due to sustain.
Do you play on EU server if yes want to 1v1? Nasus against rumble. Although I feel like you'd need a jungler to beat a rumble in lane seems like you can at least even versus rumble. (at least against a good rumble, you can pwn bad rumbles pretty hard)
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On February 11 2012 13:32 DarkRise wrote: as a top player i can add something GP - Riven is not a counter pick to GP, GP has a good edge over Riven. - Nidalee counter GP - Rumble can beat GP lvl 4 Rumble - Nasus has no chance againt rumble, in fact Rumble counter Nasus - You won't be able to farm against a Rumble or touch him unless ganked. Yorick - Irelia, Chogath, Trundle and Nasus can counter Yorick due to sustain.
Cho'gath loses hard to yorick, irelia will lose untill she hits a certain point where she will outsustain you that's true. But you shit on her so hard before that, that you should come ahead, so when she reaches that certain point, you will be stronger.
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Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs.
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On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs.
no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word.
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On February 11 2012 21:28 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:32 DarkRise wrote: as a top player i can add something GP - Riven is not a counter pick to GP, GP has a good edge over Riven. - Nidalee counter GP - Rumble can beat GP lvl 4 Rumble - Nasus has no chance againt rumble, in fact Rumble counter Nasus - You won't be able to farm against a Rumble or touch him unless ganked. Yorick - Irelia, Chogath, Trundle and Nasus can counter Yorick due to sustain. Cho'gath loses hard to yorick, irelia will lose untill she hits a certain point where she will outsustain you that's true. But you shit on her so hard before that, that you should come ahead, so when she reaches that certain point, you will be stronger.
Cho'gath and Yorick lane is just a farmfest in my experience.
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LeBlanc: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +By looking at LeBlanc's strengths and weaknesses, we can identify characteristics that would make any given laner strong against her.
LeBlanc has no sustain to note. Her pushing power without using her ultimate on her W is very limited, and to reliably proc her silence, she usually must throw herself into close range with her W.
She has great ability to burst down most APs, especially in combination with her silence, which usually interferes with an enemy AP's ability to respond in turn.
She also has great mobility to dodge skillshots and ganks with her W and its active, making it so that overcommitting will often be remediable with activating her W.
Morgana's black shield hurts LeBlanc's very easily read silencing combo, which in turn allows her to counterharass or kill LeBlanc whereas most other casters would be running around silenced during this duration - combined with her innate sustain and pushing power, this matchup usually makes for a very unhappy LeBlanc. For example, if LeBlanc should Q Morgana and Morgana uses Black Shield before Leblanc jumps and proceeds to land her Q, she can attempt to land a binding; if it should land, she can deal hefty damage with pool and even ultimate if she so desires. Unless Morgana wastes her shield to block small harass or gets low in lane, she should have very low threat of dying with enough Mres from runes.
Soraka outsustains, pushes, and harasses LeBlanc, as she does to many other laners. Her great sustain makes it so that LeBlanc's trademark burst is of little threat to herself (she can even silence LeBlanc before she uses a second spell after a Q). As per usual, your best shot against Soraka is to get a gank against her if she pushes herself beyond the halfway line in mid.
Orianna has decent sustain against LeBlanc with her E, and far outranges and outpushes LeBlanc if she should desire to do so. This range advantage with blue buff makes her a valuable pick against LeBlanc, in lane and later in the game as well.
Janna's shield and extremely early long range pushing power as an AP mid make it so that she can farm in safety while forcing LeBlanc to overextend if she should desire to harass Janna, making LeBlanc an easy gank while getting good CS.
Karma uses E Its super effective! Karma uses Mantra - Q Its super effective! (Morgana 2.0 with easier to land harass and no CC redux)
Mordekaiser - extreme pushing, free protection from LeBlanc's harassment, and damage in return.
Midwick - trades damage at high efficiency, never gets low, can harass and zone LeBlanc at will after his E procs while having a method to shut down and commit for the kill against LeBlanc post 6.
thx to mcmilo for suggestionz
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How does gp lose against irelia? Just go all-out agressive and pressure her so hard before she hits 3 and you win
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On February 13 2012 07:15 Sponkz wrote: How does gp lose against irelia? Just go all-out agressive and pressure her so hard before she hits 3 and you win
Or more likely give fb to jungler. Pretty easy to play passive. If irelia isn't silly you'll push lane trying to go agressive and then she just waits at tower, farms the creeps there, and level 3 is around the time jungler is level 4 and double buffs. or close enough.
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On February 10 2012 23:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: In a solo lane, is there anything that counters caitlyn or lux in lane? Lux just fires bindings till she hits, and if she doesn't runs away till her cd is back. It's hard to trade evenly with cait bcuz of her range.
I guess this isn't really a counterpick since you never know when a cait is gonna solo.
I mean I didn't really lose lane.. cait got ganked and died a few times :p, lux never really got kills, I just couldn't trade them effectively.
I havent played enough vs cait solo
But I've destroyed several Luxes md with LB, they cant hit you well enough with skillshots because of dash and are so squishy you can force them out or kill them outright in a few dash combos especially after you get ult. Lux just cant handle taking the guaranteed damage LB outputs with targeted skills.
I imagine LB would do fine vs cait too, as you can get in and out before cait has time to use her DPS over time to retaliate, also its cool to block cait ult with leblanc clone. Cait could just stand right in the creep wave and deny farm like a bitch, but any jungle pressure would lead to easy kills for the LB.
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On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup.
I think I agree with the leblanc thing on both accounts ^ thx.
On February 13 2012 03:38 Navi wrote:LeBlanc: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +By looking at LeBlanc's strengths and weaknesses, we can identify characteristics that would make any given laner strong against her.
LeBlanc has no sustain to note. Her pushing power without using her ultimate on her W is very limited, and to reliably proc her silence, she usually must throw herself into close range with her W.
She has great ability to burst down most APs, especially in combination with her silence, which usually interferes with an enemy AP's ability to respond in turn.
She also has great mobility to dodge skillshots and ganks with her W and its active, making it so that overcommitting will often be remediable with activating her W.
Morgana's black shield hurts LeBlanc's very easily read silencing combo, which in turn allows her to counterharass or kill LeBlanc whereas most other casters would be running around silenced during this duration - combined with her innate sustain and pushing power, this matchup usually makes for a very unhappy LeBlanc. For example, if LeBlanc should Q Morgana and Morgana uses Black Shield before Leblanc jumps and proceeds to land her Q, she can attempt to land a binding; if it should land, she can deal hefty damage with pool and even ultimate if she so desires. Unless Morgana wastes her shield to block small harass or gets low in lane, she should have very low threat of dying with enough Mres from runes.
Soraka outsustains, pushes, and harasses LeBlanc, as she does to many other laners. Her great sustain makes it so that LeBlanc's trademark burst is of little threat to herself (she can even silence LeBlanc before she uses a second spell after a Q). As per usual, your best shot against Soraka is to get a gank against her if she pushes herself beyond the halfway line in mid.
Orianna has decent sustain against LeBlanc with her E, and far outranges and outpushes LeBlanc if she should desire to do so. This range advantage with blue buff makes her a valuable pick against LeBlanc, in lane and later in the game as well.
Janna's shield and extremely early long range pushing power as an AP mid make it so that she can farm in safety while forcing LeBlanc to overextend if she should desire to harass Janna, making LeBlanc an easy gank while getting good CS.
Karma uses E Its super effective! Karma uses Mantra - Q Its super effective! (Morgana 2.0 with easier to land harass and no CC redux)
Mordekaiser - extreme pushing, free protection from LeBlanc's harassment, and damage in return.
Midwick - trades damage at high efficiency, never gets low, can harass and zone LeBlanc at will after his E procs while having a method to shut down and commit for the kill against LeBlanc post 6. thx to mcmilo for suggestionz If morgana can block leblanc's harass, then leblanc can dodge one of morgana's dark bindings and move up right next to her without any fear of retaliation from her. At this point Morgana has to use her black shield since a leblanc Q from point blank range can't be reacted to quickly enough. Then morgana will have to go back to her tower until her shield is off cooldown. Then leblanc can max W and really stay even with morgana in terms of farm so the only quality differentiating the two is whether you'd prefer Morgana's ultimate in teamfights or leblanc's abilitiy to burst squishies. I don't think it's as cut and dry as one beats the other.
I dunno, I've rarely laned this matchup and I feel like from morgana's perspective, I'm just forcing bad players who don't take advantage of my weaknesses, to last hit at their tower. I'm not really winning my lane.
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On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup. I think I agree with the leblanc thing on both accounts ^ thx. Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:38 Navi wrote:LeBlanc: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +By looking at LeBlanc's strengths and weaknesses, we can identify characteristics that would make any given laner strong against her.
LeBlanc has no sustain to note. Her pushing power without using her ultimate on her W is very limited, and to reliably proc her silence, she usually must throw herself into close range with her W.
She has great ability to burst down most APs, especially in combination with her silence, which usually interferes with an enemy AP's ability to respond in turn.
She also has great mobility to dodge skillshots and ganks with her W and its active, making it so that overcommitting will often be remediable with activating her W.
Morgana's black shield hurts LeBlanc's very easily read silencing combo, which in turn allows her to counterharass or kill LeBlanc whereas most other casters would be running around silenced during this duration - combined with her innate sustain and pushing power, this matchup usually makes for a very unhappy LeBlanc. For example, if LeBlanc should Q Morgana and Morgana uses Black Shield before Leblanc jumps and proceeds to land her Q, she can attempt to land a binding; if it should land, she can deal hefty damage with pool and even ultimate if she so desires. Unless Morgana wastes her shield to block small harass or gets low in lane, she should have very low threat of dying with enough Mres from runes.
Soraka outsustains, pushes, and harasses LeBlanc, as she does to many other laners. Her great sustain makes it so that LeBlanc's trademark burst is of little threat to herself (she can even silence LeBlanc before she uses a second spell after a Q). As per usual, your best shot against Soraka is to get a gank against her if she pushes herself beyond the halfway line in mid.
Orianna has decent sustain against LeBlanc with her E, and far outranges and outpushes LeBlanc if she should desire to do so. This range advantage with blue buff makes her a valuable pick against LeBlanc, in lane and later in the game as well.
Janna's shield and extremely early long range pushing power as an AP mid make it so that she can farm in safety while forcing LeBlanc to overextend if she should desire to harass Janna, making LeBlanc an easy gank while getting good CS.
Karma uses E Its super effective! Karma uses Mantra - Q Its super effective! (Morgana 2.0 with easier to land harass and no CC redux)
Mordekaiser - extreme pushing, free protection from LeBlanc's harassment, and damage in return.
Midwick - trades damage at high efficiency, never gets low, can harass and zone LeBlanc at will after his E procs while having a method to shut down and commit for the kill against LeBlanc post 6. thx to mcmilo for suggestionz If morgana can block leblanc's harass, then leblanc can dodge one of morgana's dark bindings and move up right next to her without any fear of retaliation from her. At this point Morgana has to use her black shield since a leblanc Q from point blank range can't be reacted to quickly enough. Then morgana will have to go back to her tower until her shield is off cooldown. Then leblanc can max W and really stay even with morgana in terms of farm so the only quality differentiating the two is whether you'd prefer Morgana's ultimate in teamfights or leblanc's abilitiy to burst squishies. I don't think it's as cut and dry as one beats the other. I dunno, I've rarely laned this matchup and I feel like from morgana's perspective, I'm just forcing bad players who don't take advantage of my weaknesses, to last hit at their tower. I'm not really winning my lane.
not winning ur lane but not losing your lane = winning vs leblanc lul as long as she doesn't go crazy and kill all your sidelanes
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On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:38 Navi wrote:LeBlanc: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +By looking at LeBlanc's strengths and weaknesses, we can identify characteristics that would make any given laner strong against her.
LeBlanc has no sustain to note. Her pushing power without using her ultimate on her W is very limited, and to reliably proc her silence, she usually must throw herself into close range with her W.
She has great ability to burst down most APs, especially in combination with her silence, which usually interferes with an enemy AP's ability to respond in turn.
She also has great mobility to dodge skillshots and ganks with her W and its active, making it so that overcommitting will often be remediable with activating her W.
Morgana's black shield hurts LeBlanc's very easily read silencing combo, which in turn allows her to counterharass or kill LeBlanc whereas most other casters would be running around silenced during this duration - combined with her innate sustain and pushing power, this matchup usually makes for a very unhappy LeBlanc. For example, if LeBlanc should Q Morgana and Morgana uses Black Shield before Leblanc jumps and proceeds to land her Q, she can attempt to land a binding; if it should land, she can deal hefty damage with pool and even ultimate if she so desires. Unless Morgana wastes her shield to block small harass or gets low in lane, she should have very low threat of dying with enough Mres from runes.
Soraka outsustains, pushes, and harasses LeBlanc, as she does to many other laners. Her great sustain makes it so that LeBlanc's trademark burst is of little threat to herself (she can even silence LeBlanc before she uses a second spell after a Q). As per usual, your best shot against Soraka is to get a gank against her if she pushes herself beyond the halfway line in mid.
Orianna has decent sustain against LeBlanc with her E, and far outranges and outpushes LeBlanc if she should desire to do so. This range advantage with blue buff makes her a valuable pick against LeBlanc, in lane and later in the game as well.
Janna's shield and extremely early long range pushing power as an AP mid make it so that she can farm in safety while forcing LeBlanc to overextend if she should desire to harass Janna, making LeBlanc an easy gank while getting good CS.
Karma uses E Its super effective! Karma uses Mantra - Q Its super effective! (Morgana 2.0 with easier to land harass and no CC redux)
Mordekaiser - extreme pushing, free protection from LeBlanc's harassment, and damage in return.
Midwick - trades damage at high efficiency, never gets low, can harass and zone LeBlanc at will after his E procs while having a method to shut down and commit for the kill against LeBlanc post 6. thx to mcmilo for suggestionz If morgana can block leblanc's harass, then leblanc can dodge one of morgana's dark bindings and move up right next to her without any fear of retaliation from her. At this point Morgana has to use her black shield since a leblanc Q from point blank range can't be reacted to quickly enough. Then morgana will have to go back to her tower until her shield is off cooldown. Then leblanc can max W and really stay even with morgana in terms of farm so the only quality differentiating the two is whether you'd prefer Morgana's ultimate in teamfights or leblanc's abilitiy to burst squishies. I don't think it's as cut and dry as one beats the other. I dunno, I've rarely laned this matchup and I feel like from morgana's perspective, I'm just forcing bad players who don't take advantage of my weaknesses, to last hit at their tower. I'm not really winning my lane.
Morgana is about as good as you can get vs LB, which is all about not dying in lane. All morgana wants to do is afkpush with pool and use black shield to reduce LB's burst. Morgana is pretty uniquivicably a much better lategame and teamfight champ. There is no way LB should be able to keep up in farm, W is on a long cooldown and she has to be very careful about blowing her only escape/initiate on creeps. Its not hard for morgana to stay far enough back to avoid being jumped almost directly on by LB, and even if you react slowly with black shield you will still block the second and much greater half of LB's combo(her ult). In fact its better to be slow to shield vs LB as you will avoid being baited. Morgana should never kill LB without jungle help, but thats not the point at all. She just outfarms and doesn't die while out-utilitying LB lategame and locking her in a an unproductive lane. Plus lategame spellsield on your AD is a fucking nightmare for LB.
I have beaten several bad Morgana's in lane with LB, but if you face a good one its very annoying and unproductive.
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so I just got raped in lane vs talon as ahri mid. I know talon counters most AP mids, but god DAMN I couldn't land any of my skill shots.
Who counters talon mid?
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On February 11 2012 11:59 sinii wrote: Any tips on Mordekaiser? Had some troubles with him top/mid as of late.
Garen. Q - Spin2win beats morde CLEAN, even with his shield up. He'll either have to e the minions, which pushes the lane up and allow to zone him for free, or he'll hug the tower and will have to use skills to steal last hit, which pushes the lane up at least to the first side bush (his side), and then you just q-e him back to his tower. Any dmg you take you just heal up in a bush somewhere.
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On February 13 2012 07:15 Sponkz wrote: How does gp lose against irelia? Just go all-out agressive and pressure her so hard before she hits 3 and you win
Even assuming you are playing in a 20 MIN NO GANK game, irelia will still survive till 3 with a cloth 5 standard rune/mastries opening. And if you are playing in a game where irelia has a decent ganker as jungler, you just handed her FB or blew flash so now you are forced to just farm. I would say an ire vs GP lane is heavily skill dependent. Irelia might come out of lane with a CS advantage but GP couldve helped his team more with his ult.
An attack speed / MR specced irelia can also win handily against rumble/kennen. I love when people counterpick irelia with rumble. First 2 backs - 2 null mantles and return to lane with 100 MR, wards, and enough pots to refuse feeding any kills. Third back - wits end. No need to ever back again and always take half of rumble's HP with 1 combo. Repeat for kennen.
As for countering irelia, I would pick vlad or nasus
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On February 13 2012 12:41 spacemonkey4eve wrote: so I just got raped in lane vs talon as ahri mid. I know talon counters most AP mids, but god DAMN I couldn't land any of my skill shots.
Who counters talon mid?
Why couldn't you hit skillshots? He has no mobility skills at all other than his jump on you....which is on a ~20 second CD. You outrange his longest skill by 180,100, 275....and he has no innate sustain. I can't imagine what would make him beat ahri in lane other than you just running up to him. Just poke him with QW all day long, if he jumps on you you wait until 1sec silence is over then charm him as he tries to back off and hit him with full combo. Stay defensive and abuse your range until he gets low enough then just ult all over him.
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On February 13 2012 16:11 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:41 spacemonkey4eve wrote: so I just got raped in lane vs talon as ahri mid. I know talon counters most AP mids, but god DAMN I couldn't land any of my skill shots.
Who counters talon mid? Why couldn't you hit skillshots? He has no mobility skills at all other than his jump on you....which is on a ~20 second CD. You outrange his longest skill by 180,100, 275....and he has no innate sustain. I can't imagine what would make him beat ahri in lane other than you just running up to him. Just poke him with QW all day long, if he jumps on you you wait until 1sec silence is over then charm him as he tries to back off and hit him with full combo. Stay defensive and abuse your range until he gets low enough then just ult all over him. I know I'm guilty of this too, but you use a lot of theorycraft. For all we know Talon is using his R in his combos so he stealths and gains movement speed and ahri can't hit him in time. It's also possible that Talon is running behind creeps in the 1 second silence he gets.
You kind of have to play the matchup before you can say ahri counters talon.
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On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup.
GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you.
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Will update with Navi's posts soon. He's the only one really contributing without just rambling nonsense >.>
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On February 13 2012 20:42 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup. GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you.
The thing is we are talking about hard counters, Gp can still just farm normally with panth around, panths stun + hss combo gets denied by oranges, and if you just parley minions or panth when he doesn't have shield you still deal a lot of damage. Gp might have to open cloth + 5, it might be one of the harder match ups but I wouldn't say Gp gets countered by panth specifically. I mean the mana costs and total mana of spear and parrrley are pretty much the same, if gp just farms with q and gets w on a high level early panth wont get any kills.
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I was responding to the sentence "I don't know if GP can zone Pantheon" which he certainly can't without the Pantheon being criminally awful. It is the other way around, barring a lot of work on the part of the GP.
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That is true, I think Panth versus Gp is pretty even and greatly depends on how well they know to use their ults.
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Does anyone have any thoughts on Jax as a counter to Rumble? I laned as Jax against a Rumble yesterday for the first time and did very well. I opened d-blade, 30-offense, and ignite/heal. I did not even even use flat mres runes (I need to invest in some). With this set up, I felt like I could flat out overpower Rumble, and I quickly took over the lane in CS and champ kills, forcing the enemy jungler to intervene repeatedly to help even things out. My skill order was WQEW.
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Lux: (Mid) + Show Spoiler +As a midlaner, Lux has great range and harassment at later levels. Her early levels suffer from a lack of sustain and long CDs on her Q and W, which makes trading harassment difficult against people who have stronger sustain or greater reliably land-able harassment.
Gangplank, if he should decide to go mid, is a very strong counter to Lux. With his high base movespeed with his E passive and active, escape mechanism from W, and his reliable (sometimes critting) nuke in Q, he is able to trade and abuse Lux with ease. Lux cannot commit, even post 6, without jungler aid due to GP's W. Lux simply gets out-harassed and traded, and can eventually be forced out of CS range by GP.
Quoth MCMilo: Ahri, KAYLE, leblanc, nidalee, veigar, vladimir is severely disadvantageous for lux
Besides the usual gay fuck sustain toplaners irelia, yorick warwick going mid to make people mad
Ahri: Obvious all your shit are skillshots and she move around LIKE A BITCH therefore u are scared pussy at lvl 6, and even before that her skillshot MISSILE SPEED is superior to your binding so unless ahri is a retard 9-tail woman bitch is being gay and fuckin you up [10:32] <@Liquid_Pandas> Kayle: only problem is that SHE HAS A 2 SECOND INVINCIBLE [10:33] <@Liquid_Pandas> your shit are obvious when it will land (HIIIIIYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 3 second yelling animation) so easy to ult that lazor shit [10:33] <@Liquid_Pandas> and lvl 2 u are scared pussy cuz kayle is a boss at lvl 2 damage [10:33] <@Liquid_Pandas> Q and E insane gay [10:34] <@Liquid_Pandas> and kayle just increases in damage every level (cuz of Q) like an AP carry so it doesn't get any better for you, 3shot you liek a baws [10:36] <@Liquid_Pandas> leblanc: here is a more skill dependent matchup, though still heavily favoring lebonk. Only reason it is skill dependent is cuz her silence only procs from 2 of her spells, so reaction binding her is key into not being a noob and dying because lux's baseline survivability is pretty shit. [10:38] <@Liquid_Pandas> General thought: Lux might LOOK like a wave clearer with E, but that is only possible if you are able to autoattack the ranged minions, so enemies like lebonk ahri nidalee FUCK U UP cuz u will never autoattack ranged minions unless they bad [10:40] <@Liquid_Pandas> Another General thought: Same with leblanc, her CC and total burst damage is very crucial during JUNGLE GANKS / COUNTERGANKS so even if u have one of these pretty disadvanageous lanes, keep being diligent and stay in the game because of her counterkilling ability with an extra person with you [10:41] <@Liquid_Pandas> Nidalee: obviously GAY AS FUCK, don't need explanation becuz u know nidalee nubiter kk. [10:42] <@Liquid_Pandas> Veigurrrr: ahhh another way of Lux's binding missile speed abuse, his E stun is fking long and instant so its super gay because if u counter harass he can be a bic pr0 and dodge your shit and its like UH OH HE CAN 100-0 ME CUZ MY BASELINE SURVIVABILITY IS VERY BAD [10:43] <@Liquid_Pandas> you CAN wave clear with R, but veigar has GREAT tower last hit with Q and W [10:43] <@Liquid_Pandas> yeh, he will fking own u later when veigar has ulti and you dont [10:44] <@Liquid_Pandas> Vladimir: ah yes, ONCE AGAIN ANOTHER TESTAMENT TO LUX'S TERRIBLE Q MISSILE SPEED [10:44] <@Liquid_Pandas> POOL UNDER THAT SHIT DAWG [10:44] <@Liquid_Pandas> THEN HE OWNZ U
Too lazy to edit it into human speak, voila
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On February 14 2012 01:38 randomKo_Orean wrote: Pantheon mid vs AP carry
-Orianna and Brand counters Pantheon really easily.Their spells do stupid amounts of dmg early game, so avoid it if you can!
It's not only about the damage, or an Annie spec'ing AP runes with her ridiculous cooldown would trash Pantheon as well. But Brand, for exemple, has a disposable stun that he's sure to land on Panth were he to W onto him. This way Panth can't go so aggressive because he's got less range, and he'll eat a full combo if he tries to do his own. For those reasons, I guess Xerath can do well against Panth too.
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As per request: please welcome MCMilo *clap clap clap*
Veigar: (Mid) + Show Spoiler + In pre-6 laning, Veigar has a decent nuke in Q, strong but unreliable damage in W, and an AoE CC E which is good for aiding ganks and escaping them as well. His overall damage is mediocre in both range and damage at early levels (as using E to set up W is mana-inefficient), but his burst becomes considerably large at 6 and beyond.
Opponents who can punish his relative weakness and lack of sustain pre-6 are usually your best bets against Veigar. Picking an AP that goes pure AP against Veigar always has the 25 minute and beyond threat of getting 1 shotted, so keep that in mind as well.
[11:26] <Liquid_Pandas_> THEY FUCK VEIGAR UP DAWG: Annie, Cassio, Leblanc, Ryze, Soraka [11:28] <Liquid_Pandas_> Ok, obviously Veigar is not the strongest of the AP carries in the lane, as I have omitted MANY heroes/champions that would FUCK HIM UP (gp, talon, galio, nidalee) for obvious reasons that really shouldn't be explained any further than mentioning their names [11:30] <Liquid_Pandas_> Annie: What a fking little girl. Veigar hates little girls, he likes big AP carry women like Ahri when he can burst her at will (not intended) after lvl 6. But, Annie is a meanie little bastard who likes to burst people down FASTER and BETTER than you until you get your AP count going [11:31] <Liquid_Pandas_> She roams better than you, she clears better than you and she CAN kill you with sorc shoes (13mr blues good for this matchup???) with ultimate. Just an all round big fucked up lane for veigar. [11:32] <artthoumadbro> bic girl [11:35] <Liquid_Pandas_> Cassio: SNAKE WOMEN!!! LOL! dont you dare try pick veigar vs cassio unless you like being yelled at by your team. The main problem for this matchup is the AP burst versus the AP sustained damage. CASSIOPEIA IS GAY AND SHE WILL OWNS U until you get your AP going (oooh i like trends!). [11:37] <Liquid_Pandas_> OR, Cassio is smarter than you imagine, not going for those AP items, but for smaller utility based items (WotA, Rylai, Abyssal), that makes veigar go FROWNY FACE. So getting your AP going is ALSO useless against a smart cassio ready to deviate from a retarded set build that she wrote on a note card below her keyboard. [11:38] <Liquid_Pandas_> Leblanc: FUCK THAT SILENCE y0. She fast, she super more burst than you until you get your AP going (MORE TRENDS). But surprise! How can you get your AP going if she absolutely poops on you early? Congrats, you just walked into counter lane. YAYYYYY [11:40] <Liquid_Pandas_> Roaming power, and when she sits on mid she can poop on you. EVEN HER PASSIVE HELLA GAY cuz when u get a chance to kill her, she do the passive illusion and your shit is single target (W has to be casted right after E anyways it will most likely hit only her and then procs her illusions is what i am trying to get at in here). WAT DO SIR? U DONT DO SHIT MAN. zizi yO
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The hell, screw you Navi, I wasn't finished with that OMG!
(Reserved for other stuff I might add with Veigar cuz fegitar can't wait ONE class for me to finish it. zzzz
Want to try out those lanes? (I play veigar obviously) Add me in-game MCMilo if you want to learn how 2 plei da veigurrr. :DDD MY FAVORITE HERO Yehhhh. Also if you are lazy just read Crs Nyjacky's Veigar guide like srsly u want me to teach u instead of Nyjacky? -_- I pretty much agree with all he says besides a few runes/masteries/summoners.
http://www.lolpro.com/guides/veigar/155-veigar-mid-lane
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milo sound like 15 year old girlboy on the internets h4h4h4 his veigar is gud, i would prob trust anything he say on those matchups
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On February 14 2012 02:00 xDaunt wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on Jax as a counter to Rumble? I laned as Jax against a Rumble yesterday for the first time and did very well. I opened d-blade, 30-offense, and ignite/heal. I did not even even use flat mres runes (I need to invest in some). With this set up, I felt like I could flat out overpower Rumble, and I quickly took over the lane in CS and champ kills, forcing the enemy jungler to intervene repeatedly to help even things out. My skill order was WQEW.
Doesn't work, at least not with old jax nor the new one. Not sure about the one since last patch, but if it hasn't changed much it does not counter Rumble if anything it's the opposite. Running ignite heal might work in one sense, but it's generally too risky and just not too good at top dorans blade etc is also very risky and any competent Rumble would just stay back early to then start harassing to get you lower while healing himself to then go flat out kill you with or without jungle.
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On February 13 2012 20:55 Xedat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 20:42 zer0das wrote:On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup. GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you. The thing is we are talking about hard counters, Gp can still just farm normally with panth around, panths stun + hss combo gets denied by oranges, and if you just parley minions or panth when he doesn't have shield you still deal a lot of damage. Gp might have to open cloth + 5, it might be one of the harder match ups but I wouldn't say Gp gets countered by panth specifically. I mean the mana costs and total mana of spear and parrrley are pretty much the same, if gp just farms with q and gets w on a high level early panth wont get any kills.
Orange doesn't deny the W->E combo. The whole point of it is it gets pantheon into e range so that you eat the majority of HSS, as no one runs away fast enough pointblank -- and it's very hard to orange off the stun anyways because the stun is so short in duration. You'd have to react in one tenth of a second to actually get any of the stun reduced with the orange and you still stand there for a split second eating it, taking hss damage.
If pantheon pushes you to your tower and forces you to buy crappy items and farm with your skills then you're losing your lane, as pantheon can just go kill other lanes and invade the relevant buff on his side with his jungle why you sit at your tower. You can't defend it because you're A: busy last hitting a pushed wave and B: you're way weaker than pantheon in a head to head fight since you put levels in oranges. The only reversal to this is if your mid is winning as much as you're losing and can defend buffs, which isn't likely if pantheon can just burn his ult on mid while you passively sit at your tower and hope your ult can save the dude. (for reference, pantheon ult > gp ult when it comes to ganking lanes)
Dying or farming under tower are the most basic things that happen when you're counter picked in lane.
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Thanks
I'm going to make my own counterpick spreadsheet and try to fill it.
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Disregard me, I fail at posting.
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Swain and Kennen can both demolish top lanes played correctly. Some like Yorick prove a bit troublesome.
Swain slows+snares guys like Udyr Tryndamere and Garen. Hes all about surviving until lvl 6, where you will have all the sustain in the world if you last hit correctly.
Kennen is a stun machine. Just don't try and trade with lightning rush combo on guys with CC, or else you will end up losing the trade. I remember thinking it was ok to try and do that to Garen... Oh my lord. Half my health gone instantly.
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On February 14 2012 12:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 20:55 Xedat wrote:On February 13 2012 20:42 zer0das wrote:On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon? Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs. I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs. no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word. My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup. GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you. The thing is we are talking about hard counters, Gp can still just farm normally with panth around, panths stun + hss combo gets denied by oranges, and if you just parley minions or panth when he doesn't have shield you still deal a lot of damage. Gp might have to open cloth + 5, it might be one of the harder match ups but I wouldn't say Gp gets countered by panth specifically. I mean the mana costs and total mana of spear and parrrley are pretty much the same, if gp just farms with q and gets w on a high level early panth wont get any kills. Orange doesn't deny the W->E combo. The whole point of it is it gets pantheon into e range so that you eat the majority of HSS, as no one runs away fast enough pointblank -- and it's very hard to orange off the stun anyways because the stun is so short in duration. You'd have to react in one tenth of a second to actually get any of the stun reduced with the orange and you still stand there for a split second eating it, taking hss damage. If pantheon pushes you to your tower and forces you to buy crappy items and farm with your skills then you're losing your lane, as pantheon can just go kill other lanes and invade the relevant buff on his side with his jungle why you sit at your tower. You can't defend it because you're A: busy last hitting a pushed wave and B: you're way weaker than pantheon in a head to head fight since you put levels in oranges. The only reversal to this is if your mid is winning as much as you're losing and can defend buffs, which isn't likely if pantheon can just burn his ult on mid while you passively sit at your tower and hope your ult can save the dude. (for reference, pantheon ult > gp ult when it comes to ganking lanes) Dying or farming under tower are the most basic things that happen when you're counter picked in lane.
no it's not, it's just projectile timing. The stun isn't instant, and only begins once panth lands on GP, so it's really really easy to just orange it, just like orange-ing sion or taric stun.
edit: and i said this before, the HSS ticks don't matter as much as the 2nd q and autoattack that you lose from him orange-ing the stun.
Idk tho, i feel like i've expressed my stance on the matchup like 20 bajillion times, being that panth is stronger than gp in lane, but doesn't outright destroy him. Like, you can pick a lot worse things to go vs panth as than GP, so i wouldn't quantify it as a counter, just as a good matchup for panth.
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Lee Sin (Top) + Show Spoiler +With a very mobile kit, fairly low CDs, and energy costs with his passive utilized, Lee Sin is an extremely formidable toplaner as well as a jungler. In the correct hands, he presents a very large harassment or kill threat at most levels if he is able to land his Q. For examples of a strong top lane Lee Sin, I recommend watching Chauster's stream if he is playing it - he is the most mechanically proficient Lee Sin who makes smart engagement decisions and plays LS top on a regular basis.
With his shield, Lee is able to handle the harssment of poking toplaners such as GP well, as well as being able to disengage from most CC almost instantaneously. His damage with his Q and E is formidable, and trading autoattacks with Lee Sin is usually inefficient due to the aspd slow on tempest combined with his lifesteal from W.
A strong pick against Lee top is Riven. She simply outdamages Lee at all levels (except for Lee's very quick level 6 burst), and unlike virtually every other toplaner, she has an instantaneous AoE CC to halt and damage Lee if he should try to Q or W near her at any point. Her shield is similarly if not more formidable than Lee's at higher levels, and provides unconditional mobility at all points (for example, if Lee decides to commit with the aid of a jungler, it is useful for dodging Lee's Q or to run away after a W should they catch her). Given that she can simply outtrade Lee, this lane is often turned into a 1 sided victory or farmfest for Riven, which are both favorable given her superior scaling.
Lee Sin (jungle): + Show Spoiler +While jungling counters are inherently more difficult to accurately portray due to the greater number of circumstances that can affect jungling power or influence, Lee Sin has a significant amount of trouble against a well played Udyr. Phoenix Udyr's superior clear speed means that he should be above Lee Sin in levels at all points in the game, excepting a large amount of successful ganks from Lee; and Lee cannot duel Udyr at any point in the game for several reasons. 1. His inability to commit - should Lee be in a superior situation via Udyr getting low from creeps, having less buffs at the time, etc., Lee cannot commit very successfully to Udyr due to Udyr's bear stance. With the stun, Lee is inable to Q successfully to Udyr for several reasons - the movespeed makes it difficult for Lee to hit Udyr with the Q at all, and if he should, the stun will prevent Lee from casting Cripple onto him, which again combined with his movespeed from bear forces Lee to flash, exhaust, or ward and safeguard to it to attempt to slow Udyr at all. 2. Given similar levels / buffs, due to inferior damage and relative weakness of Resonating Strike thanks to Udyr's turtle stance, should the two fight on even terms (blue buff and level 2/3, or Red and 4 and beyond vs each other) Udyr will come ahead in almost every situation. Given his stronger and more spammable shield, Lee Sin is unable to get the needed amount of damage to deal a fatal Resonating Strike to Udyr in most reasonable 1v1s, and should he attempt to cast Cripple onto Udyr, Udyr can again simply bear stance Lee and get off superior damage at all stages of the game. When the midlanes are equally matched or go to roam, this has serious implications, as Udyr can have effective control over Lee Sin's red side jungle with minimal aid. 3. Relative counterganking ability - Lee Sin's counterganking ability against an Udyr gank is relatively weak, as due to Udyr's bear, his mobility is several weakened and he is fairly unable to commit due to his superior damage output and safety from a counterkill due to his turtle and bear combined. Except in the cases where either laner is at extremely low health, the best Lee can do in most gank situations is to peel for his own laner and provide relatively low counterkill opportunity. However, an Udyr countergank against Lee Sin can often be deadly, as he is an effective meat shield against Lee Sin's Q while providing strong damage and easy to apply CC for Lee and his laner, while not being afraid of being killed if any significant CDs were spent on his laner. Combined with Udyr's strong map mobility and superior clear speed, this usually puts Lee Sin on the back foot in the ganking / farming tempo.
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Good example of point 3 with lee sin jungle is in the second replay I posted in the udyr thread huehue.
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Cassio -> Kassadin Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun. His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over. For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.
Ryze -> Cassio Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero.
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On February 19 2012 00:32 JustAGame wrote: Cassio -> Kassadin Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun. His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over. For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.
Ryze -> Cassio Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero.
i allways felt that cassio shits on kassadin in lane. I have much more success vs burst mages like brand and annie as kassadin. Any kind of sustained damage generally shits on kass from my experience.
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Depends if you're talking post or pre 6. In pre 6, kass loses badly but has the added advantage that he supports ganks really well because of his silence.
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On February 19 2012 00:43 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 00:32 JustAGame wrote: Cassio -> Kassadin Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun. His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over. For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.
Ryze -> Cassio Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero. i allways felt that cassio shits on kassadin in lane. I have much more success vs burst mages like brand and annie as kassadin. Any kind of sustained damage generally shits on kass from my experience.
Since kassadin is a melee farmer, you need blue / mana reg to farm pre lvl6 with q spell and you shouldnt go into any kind of exchange. Once you hit lvl 6 cassio is dead. There is just nothing you can do. Against annie you can RQE, but annie will stun you and auto attack you. When stun and silence are over you got everything on CD while annie can QWR. In general you trade QE from Kassa vs QWQ and 3 auto attacks from Annie. This makes trading very bad as long as annie has her stun up. Compare this to Cassio: the trade is QE from kassa vs 1-2 auto attacks from cassio.
Most playes will run away when silenced as annie, but if you run in you actually win the fight.
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If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?
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On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote: If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?
For top laners, I would say garen, riven, kennen, yorick, and uydr probably has the fewest counters. Against garen, they can stack armor to make you less strong but generally if they stand in your spin they will still take a butt load of damage. Uydr has insane sustain(shield+regen health+mana). Only smart players who knows when to harass uydr can stay even with him in farm(ie you need to make him burn his mana by forcing stance change without taking too many damage). Riven has huge damage vs pretty much all ap tops. Melee tops can't do much to her due to her short cooldown-ish good damage stun. Kennen there is no counter. A good irelia can be troublesome but generally in 1500 elo-range, a decent kennen can farm vs any lane. Yorick is strong in lane and decent in teamfights. his damage isnt high tho(unless you copy a range ad and knida loses to trundle).
For mid lane, ahri and brand and ryze seems solid vs most champs(excluding leblanc).
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On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote: If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?
I don't play top but for mid the two safest champions in the game right now are easily Morgana and Ryze imo. And both are the safest for pretty much the same reasons. You can't stop either champion from getting their farm. You aren't going to ever zone a Morgana. It's gonna be pretty impossible to stop Ryze from getting his farm either. And in Ryze's case he can farm at tower incredibly easy because of his kit and his passive. So long as you don't go OOM as either champion, and I find it's actually kind of hard to go OOM on either, you really don't have any lanes that you're going to straight up lose. Both of these champions are pretty easy to play too imo.
As Ryze, if you get your farm and your team doesn't lose too hard early game you're going to hit a point where you become a god because Ryze is absolutely broken right now. There will be games as Ryze when you can easily 1v3 portions of the enemy team.
There are lots of other good AP picks that don't have hard counters but these two champions can get kills in lots of lanes and they can't really be denied farm against any other common AP mids. They both scale incredibly well into late game too. So yeah, they're the most "safe" choices right now.
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Talon-->Ashe(mid lane) + Show Spoiler + While Ashe is generally regarded as being an unfavorable AD carry in comparison to the likes of Graves, Vayne, or Kog'Maw, she does counter Talon. Talon is a melee burst champion who relies on closing with minions t farm them, with one exception-Rake, his Q. However, Ashe's volley is easily capable of outranging Talon's Rake. In addition, Talon's usual trading combo of E-Q-W or E-R-Q-W is largely nullified by Ashe, as Ashe has both a) the ability to slow you during the initial E, and b) the abilities to either slow you or reveal you during your R. A good Ashe can react quickly to a Talon's burst combo and take little damage with the exception of Noxian Diplomacy and/or a few autoattacks. Also, Ashe's Q shots absolutely punish an aggressive Talon to the point where he is almost entirely shutdown.
Sorry if any of this is incorrect, but I believe it is practical advice.
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On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote: If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?
Udyr/Irelia/Lee sin!
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On March 02 2012 04:42 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote: If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked? I don't play top but for mid the two safest champions in the game right now are easily Morgana and Ryze imo.
I'd say Ryze is extremely weak against Cass, to the point where she will deny farm and/or kill you repeatedly, and you can't do anything about it on your own. Aggressive Vlads will also be a pain. Ryze is good against most other mids though.
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ryze's appeal is that his gank assist is amongst the strongest of midlaners while having excellent scaling i like TF for ap because he can gank very easily, is hard to dominate in lane due to his ability to farm from afar if needed, and his likewise very good gank assist for early ganks
udyr rumble lee irelia as mentioned above are very versatile top laners
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Request for lane udyr counter. It feels like even with wriggles rush teemo, I can't push him out of lane and if I have any ping he can catch me and dive me.
Maybe just need full offensive runes
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On March 24 2012 12:32 obesechicken13 wrote: Request for lane udyr counter. It feels like even with wriggles rush teemo, I can't push him out of lane and if I have any ping he can catch me and dive me.
lane udyr tiger form wants to do 1 thing: rush in with bear, hit you with tiger, then back away and farm with turtle.
therefore you need 1 of 3 things to play against him: >the mobility (or counter-mobility) to dictate when he can hit you and when he can't (riven or ryze) >the ability to make favorable trades when he hits you - this is broken into 2 subcategories: the ability to outdamage him or the ability to stick on him when he tries to back out after harassing so you can counterharass (shyvana and GP)
basically you can go extremely aggressive at level 1 because no matter what stance he took, 1 stance is never enough to make a difference on udyr. he needs to stance dance to get the most out of his stances. 2-5 is tricky, he can usually make favorable trades here unless you get really ahead at 1 or are playing one of the aforementioned people. post 5, you will have an ult, he won't, use that to your advantage. udyr is a tough lane for anyone but i think riven shyv and GP can all do pretty well against him
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A good way to lane vs Udyr is to run when he activates his Q. You just keep running until he has to last hit a creep and his extra deepz from Q are down so you can usually win a trade. Other than that just follow what guitar said.
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On March 24 2012 13:21 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 12:32 obesechicken13 wrote: Request for lane udyr counter. It feels like even with wriggles rush teemo, I can't push him out of lane and if I have any ping he can catch me and dive me. lane udyr tiger form wants to do 1 thing: rush in with bear, hit you with tiger, then back away and farm with turtle. therefore you need 1 of 3 things to play against him: >the mobility (or counter-mobility) to dictate when he can hit you and when he can't (riven or ryze) >the ability to make favorable trades when he hits you - this is broken into 2 subcategories: the ability to outdamage him or the ability to stick on him when he tries to back out after harassing so you can counterharass (shyvana and GP) basically you can go extremely aggressive at level 1 because no matter what stance he took, 1 stance is never enough to make a difference on udyr. he needs to stance dance to get the most out of his stances. 2-5 is tricky, he can usually make favorable trades here unless you get really ahead at 1 or are playing one of the aforementioned people. post 5, you will have an ult, he won't, use that to your advantage. udyr is a tough lane for anyone but i think riven shyv and GP can all do pretty well against him naw gp gets trashed by udyr. riven owns him though.
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On March 24 2012 16:32 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 13:21 gtrsrs wrote:On March 24 2012 12:32 obesechicken13 wrote: Request for lane udyr counter. It feels like even with wriggles rush teemo, I can't push him out of lane and if I have any ping he can catch me and dive me. lane udyr tiger form wants to do 1 thing: rush in with bear, hit you with tiger, then back away and farm with turtle. therefore you need 1 of 3 things to play against him: >the mobility (or counter-mobility) to dictate when he can hit you and when he can't (riven or ryze) >the ability to make favorable trades when he hits you - this is broken into 2 subcategories: the ability to outdamage him or the ability to stick on him when he tries to back out after harassing so you can counterharass (shyvana and GP) basically you can go extremely aggressive at level 1 because no matter what stance he took, 1 stance is never enough to make a difference on udyr. he needs to stance dance to get the most out of his stances. 2-5 is tricky, he can usually make favorable trades here unless you get really ahead at 1 or are playing one of the aforementioned people. post 5, you will have an ult, he won't, use that to your advantage. udyr is a tough lane for anyone but i think riven shyv and GP can all do pretty well against him naw gp gets trashed by udyr. riven owns him though.
ya
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I really need to update this but with everybody trashed the layout and begun posting without any sense of logic... This will take time, I'll do this after my exams, I promess !
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I would love to see some counters to kass. Talon would be one of them obv. But I usually have trouble with him
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On July 01 2012 08:37 jaybrundage wrote: I would love to see some counters to kass. Talon would be one of them obv. But I usually have trouble with him
Morde. I'll write up a few of these properly when I get home.
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morg wins pretty hard with her sheild being faster then kass's silence and then her being able to dance better from that with her w poke and q w combo that kass can't blink out of.
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On July 01 2012 08:37 jaybrundage wrote: I would love to see some counters to kass. Talon would be one of them obv. But I usually have trouble with him
The following:
* Pre-6 anyone with a ranged auto attack can do really well against Kassadin, since Kass can only retaliate with his rather mana hungry silence and has to get into melee range to last hit. * Any AD char (bruiser/carry) does well, since their damage isn't negated through the silence and Kassadins passive has no effect. * Champs that can push hard, forcing Kassadin to the tower, not letting him roam. * Champs that can negate his damage do well, be it through sustain or through shields.
If you just pick to counter him, pick Pantheon, keep him at 10 cs for the laning phase and when he tries to roam just mandrop after him.
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really good at keeping cow away ^best line ever thanks guys for the posts and updates it is really appreciated
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From my experience as far as AP mages go, Ryze is pretty good against kassadin. MS quints, MR glyphs and just throw a Q+W at kassadin every time he Q's you. From level 2 onwards, you should be able to Q+W, get silenced, move closer, auto+auto+Q again and crush whatever he can throw at you. If you get a null-magic + mana crystal on your first back, it's pretty easy to outtrade kassadin.
Galio is another AP who does rather well against kassadin since he's innately very MR heavy/tanky and is one of the strongest pushers in the game.
Putting bruisers mid, Tryndamere, Gangplank, Pantheon are pretty damn good against him.
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Gangplank is what I use vs Kassadin, generally have triple or quad his minionkills. Ult to assist when he tries to roam etc. He can't do anything vs Q spam and E -> autos when he tries to lasthit with melee
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Ok guys. I been hearing that zyra is op (salce said so)
Anyone have any good counters. Pushing seems like it would help. I have had some success with malz as well
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i havent seen anything win vs zyra before. then again i havent really seen zyra at all since its permabanned lol.
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Swain trades really well with her thanks to his EQ combo.
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I'd imagine Morgana would do ok? You can kill plants with your pool and push just as hard (Zyra IMO isn't one of the hardest pushers like a Morde/Cass/Malz but then again I've barely played her.
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I've had some success against Zyra as Gragas. The first few levels are a little painful, but once you get to the point where you can farm the wave with a barrel or two, you don't even need to be near Zyra's plants to CS. Her root (Which I am assuming will be nerfed) and her ultimate's knockup can be dodged by body slam, and she is fairly squishy and an easy target once you get your ultimate.
Of course, this may or may not be true, I am only at 1300 right now.
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Some issues:
Ahri is definitely NOT a soft counter to LeBlanc. Ahri doesn't push well. Not well enough against LeBlanc anyway because Ahri will die in the process.
Galio's best counter is Vladimir (as far as AP are concerned). Vladimir outsustains Galio and his harass is targetted, not a skillshot.
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On August 07 2012 11:31 Sufficiency wrote: Galio's best counter is Vladimir (as far as AP are concerned). Vladimir outsustains Galio and his harass is targetted, not a skillshot
Not really. Galio doesn't win lanes through his sustain, he wins it because he builds a shitton of Magic resistance and pushes like mad. Of course, there is a little sustain, but simply outsustaining Galio doesn't mean Vlad is a counter. The Harass being targeted or not has no effect on Galio, he isn't extremely mobile in the first place so skillshot or not doesn't really matter.
At best, Vladimir vs Galio is a farm lane.
If you absolutely must pick an AP to lane against Galio, Pick someone that doesn't rely on DoTs, someone that can clear fast, and preferrably someone that can escape Galio's ultimate.
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As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long. - Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake. - Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit. - Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team. - Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers. - Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit. - Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour. - Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance.
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'If he can dodge your skill shots'
You could say that about every mid vs a champ with skillshots...
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On August 07 2012 17:58 LionsFist wrote: As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long. - Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake. - Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit. - Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team. - Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers. - Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit. - Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour. - Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance. Against Fizz and Leblanc you can just shove the lane and there's nothing they can do. They have to get jungler help to even get in position to 1shot you, so they are not directly a hard counter. Morde is definetly NOT a counter. Zyra is stupidly good vs Morde.
I've had the most sucesses against Zyra with Veigar, so he's currently my go-to vs her.
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Wait, Zyra can't punish Kassadin at levels 1-3? She has a 575 AUTO ATTACK RANGE. That's all you need to punish Kassadin. Run some AD runes if you're feeling like it.
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^AD pages are really good for certain match-ups mid. Picked Swain after they picked Fizz, used my AD runes and 9/12/9 masteries (indomitable op), makes it a very easy lane.
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Swain is even better at the "autoattack punish" because he can toss in his E to damage amp his autos.
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Talon is probably the strongest counter to Anivia, and a strong counter to Zyra. Both champions have skill-shot and positional area affect abilities. This makes them inherently weak to champions with strong gap closing abilities, who can easily dodge their spells while jumping on the target and not letting up.
Before level 6, Anivia can do nothing to Talon. He can take Cutthroat (E) at level 2 to easily avoid her combo. At 3 he shuts her down completely. Anivia can't cast Flashfrost (Q) without immediately suffering a full combo from Talon with no trade in damage. This leaves Talon free to safely poke her off the lane with Rake (W) and free farm.
Talon can employ the similar strategies to Zyra, forcing her to play defensively with her plants (literally putting them on top of her). If she places a single seed away from her position, Talon can jump in and trade favourably. She cannot use her combo offensively because it is too easy for Talon to dodge the whole thing and jump on her again.
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I feel like Jax/Panth just straight destrroy Kayle solotop. Panth can just autoattack until he gets shield up and pounce and more effectively trade with w/e Kayle has, while Jax can do something very similiar.
It just feels impossible to win vs Jax/Panth.
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On August 08 2012 23:53 Shouoken wrote: Talon is probably the strongest counter to Anivia, and a strong counter to Zyra. Both champions have skill-shot and positional area affect abilities. This makes them inherently weak to champions with strong gap closing abilities, who can easily dodge their spells while jumping on the target and not letting up.
Before level 6, Anivia can do nothing to Talon. He can take Cutthroat (E) at level 2 to easily avoid her combo. At 3 he shuts her down completely. Anivia can't cast Flashfrost (Q) without immediately suffering a full combo from Talon with no trade in damage. This leaves Talon free to safely poke her off the lane with Rake (W) and free farm.
Talon can employ the similar strategies to Zyra, forcing her to play defensively with her plants (literally putting them on top of her). If she places a single seed away from her position, Talon can jump in and trade favourably. She cannot use her combo offensively because it is too easy for Talon to dodge the whole thing and jump on her again. I dunno, I feel like talon has issues if Anivia pretends Talon is Kassadin, running AD runes and autoattack harassing whenever Talon tries to CS without W. If Talon resorts to wave pushing to pick up CS, anivia isn't being threatened nearly as much by Talon and anivia doesn't mind being pushed up on pre-6 - you're not going to kill anivia with egg pre-6 under her own turret, especially with a melee champ. Post-6, if you're not already in range to silence Anivia when she starts her ulti, you aren't going to get to throw anything at her to mess her up, and if you try she can hit you with RE or if you try to walk towards her to get in jump range, it's easy to walk right into a Q.
Toss in the fact that anivia doesn't care what items she builds as her core. A glacial shroud will make talon MISERABLE while still being a perfectly fine item for Anivia. I just don't think it's as good of a counterpick as you say it is.
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On August 09 2012 00:17 sung_moon wrote: I feel like Jax/Panth just straight destrroy Kayle solotop. Panth can just autoattack until he gets shield up and pounce and more effectively trade with w/e Kayle has, while Jax can do something very similiar.
It just feels impossible to win vs Jax/Panth.
Yep. Cost of doing business imo, considering how hard she destroys most other tops. Plus, you can win vs. Jax if you out play them.
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On August 07 2012 17:58 LionsFist wrote: As Zyra, the biggest pains I see for her are:
- Fizz: Aggressive play is rewarded heavily for him here. Can zone you early and often. Out trades you and can escape your ulti and plants with ease. Able to farm freely and will roam all game. Will 1 shot you post-7 all game long. - Talon: Just frustrating in general. You can't stop him farming, he can zone you. By the time you can finally free-farm with your QE combo, he can free-farm with his rake. - Gragas: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Instaclears as fast as you, turns into mostly a farm-lane while he still has a slight 1v1 advantage. Usefulness of ulti's is comparable late game. Not really a counter, just equal with debatable better kit. - Kassadin: Can't be punished between 1-3, plays defensively 4/5, wins 6+. Denies you heavily from 6 onwards, starts boots and you rarely land a combo in lane early. Allowed to farm freely from 6 because you can't contest him and then he roams and destroys your team. - Le Blanc: Haven't actually played this yet, but I'd imagine it's just the typical fact she can jump away from your combos, harass you no end, and out-trade you at all stages of the game. Only hope would be maybe pushing her to turret early and risk getting ganked by jungler as Zyra escape sucks vs most junglers. - Vladamir: Out-sustain, can't be punished in general, trades evenly between 3-8, turns into fairly safe farming lane later. Not really a counter, but equal with debatable better kit. - Mordekaiser: If he can dodge your skill shots, he wins this lane. If he can't, well it's stupidly in Zyras favour. - Veigar: I don't know if this is a counter or not, but I had stupid trouble with the last 2 Veigars I went against in lane. Both were aggressive between levels 1-3 and forced an advantage there, sat back and cuddled it til level 6, then went on to destroy me if I ever went to combo him. If I E'd him, he just tanked it, stunned me before I could get the Q part of combo off, and dropped me to between 20-0% from full with a full combo. Probably heavily dependant on Veigars skill at dropping his stun circle perfectly, because the few times he missed slightly, I destroyed him, yet each time he did, I stood no chance. Eh, from my experiences Zyra crushes Kassadin and Leblanc, and laning about Fizz is very doable. Against Kassadin and Leblanc you just shove the lane into their face which is incredibly easy to do with Zyra with QW which not only pushes the lane like mad but also zones the opponent because of its attack prioritization. I really don't understand how you think Kassadin "can't be punished between 1-3" when you can punish him like crazy with pretty much every aspect of your kit. Leblanc is pretty much the same. Against Fizz you play similarly except he actually has the capability to punish you for mispositioning a lot earlier than Kassadin and Leblanc, but he also can't stop you from just pushing the lane. Then after a doran or two you build negatron -> abyssal and merc treads if necessary against Kassadin/Leblanc.
Haven't played the other matchups.
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Hello TL, I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him.
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On November 13 2012 12:26 jaybrundage wrote: Hello TL, I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him.
Taric lane usually involves him wanting to E -> walk onto you -> (R/) W. A support that can kite him (something like Janna or Lulu) works really well because they can slow the Taric. So long as you can survive his laning phase, Taric's teamfight is mediocre.
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Just a throw-out, some freebie counters that are generally accepted:
Cho'Gath vs Yorick: Pretty simple. Cho's passive is triggered by killing the ghouls. Anytime Yorick tries to sustain, its letting Cho sustain more. That said, Cho has mana sustain, so his harassment is much stronger than Yorick's. Combine that with a slow and a silence, Cho'Gath can't lose to Yorick even if he tried.
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I think that you should add gragas as a major counter pick to karthus. Playing both of these champions I laugh when I see a karthus pick. from level 4 onwards you will completely dominate this lane unless the enemy karthus is much much more skilled than you. Also as long as cassio doesn't get too far ahead (due to a dc or idk what) I don't feel that she hard counters gragas in anyway, just play better than her and wait for lvl 4 to have your W(dmg reduction)=>body slam (dmg + slow obviously)=> Q combo and you should out damage; This lane is ussually won by the better player in my opinion...
I'm commenting assuming that the OP is up to date, it's very late and I'm lazy ^^;:
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i think its pretty even, after nerfs karthus is a better mid
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On November 13 2012 12:32 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:26 jaybrundage wrote: Hello TL, I'm curious what do you guys think would counter Taric bot. He just gives so much lane control. The cc makes it so that he can zone well create ganking opportunities, go all in.
But hes also versatile with his heal and armor buff so he can play relatively passive and still do well. As he has damage mitigation. What have y'all found out that does well against him. Taric lane usually involves him wanting to E -> walk onto you -> (R/) W. A support that can kite him (something like Janna or Lulu) works really well because they can slow the Taric. So long as you can survive his laning phase, Taric's teamfight is mediocre.
In my experience, Zyra works incredibly well against Taric. Strong, long ranged harass, good bush control, a root to control when fights happen and a stronger level 6 then Taric lets you usually win the lane.
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