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[D] Specific counter picks - Page 10

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MCMilo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States365 Posts
February 13 2012 21:23 GMT
#181
The hell, screw you Navi, I wasn't finished with that OMG!

(Reserved for other stuff I might add with Veigar cuz fegitar can't wait ONE class for me to finish it. zzzz

Want to try out those lanes? (I play veigar obviously)
Add me in-game MCMilo if you want to learn how 2 plei da veigurrr. :DDD
MY FAVORITE HERO Yehhhh. Also if you are lazy just read Crs Nyjacky's Veigar guide like srsly u want me to teach u instead of Nyjacky? -_- I pretty much agree with all he says besides a few runes/masteries/summoners.

http://www.lolpro.com/guides/veigar/155-veigar-mid-lane
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 13 2012 21:51 GMT
#182
milo sound like 15 year old girlboy on the internets h4h4h4
his veigar is gud, i would prob trust anything he say on those matchups
Hey! Listen!
Yttrasil
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden651 Posts
February 13 2012 22:40 GMT
#183
On February 14 2012 02:00 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone have any thoughts on Jax as a counter to Rumble? I laned as Jax against a Rumble yesterday for the first time and did very well. I opened d-blade, 30-offense, and ignite/heal. I did not even even use flat mres runes (I need to invest in some). With this set up, I felt like I could flat out overpower Rumble, and I quickly took over the lane in CS and champ kills, forcing the enemy jungler to intervene repeatedly to help even things out. My skill order was WQEW.


Doesn't work, at least not with old jax nor the new one. Not sure about the one since last patch, but if it hasn't changed much it does not counter Rumble if anything it's the opposite. Running ignite heal might work in one sense, but it's generally too risky and just not too good at top dorans blade etc is also very risky and any competent Rumble would just stay back early to then start harassing to get you lower while healing himself to then go flat out kill you with or without jungle.
Meh
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 03:43:55
February 14 2012 03:40 GMT
#184
On February 13 2012 20:55 Xedat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 20:42 zer0das wrote:
On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:
On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon?
Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs.
I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs.


no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word.

My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup.


GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you.


The thing is we are talking about hard counters, Gp can still just farm normally with panth around, panths stun + hss combo gets denied by oranges, and if you just parley minions or panth when he doesn't have shield you still deal a lot of damage.
Gp might have to open cloth + 5, it might be one of the harder match ups but I wouldn't say Gp gets countered by panth specifically.
I mean the mana costs and total mana of spear and parrrley are pretty much the same, if gp just farms with q and gets w on a high level early panth wont get any kills.


Orange doesn't deny the W->E combo. The whole point of it is it gets pantheon into e range so that you eat the majority of HSS, as no one runs away fast enough pointblank -- and it's very hard to orange off the stun anyways because the stun is so short in duration. You'd have to react in one tenth of a second to actually get any of the stun reduced with the orange and you still stand there for a split second eating it, taking hss damage.

If pantheon pushes you to your tower and forces you to buy crappy items and farm with your skills then you're losing your lane, as pantheon can just go kill other lanes and invade the relevant buff on his side with his jungle why you sit at your tower. You can't defend it because you're A: busy last hitting a pushed wave and B: you're way weaker than pantheon in a head to head fight since you put levels in oranges. The only reversal to this is if your mid is winning as much as you're losing and can defend buffs, which isn't likely if pantheon can just burn his ult on mid while you passively sit at your tower and hope your ult can save the dude. (for reference, pantheon ult > gp ult when it comes to ganking lanes)

Dying or farming under tower are the most basic things that happen when you're counter picked in lane.
Remember Violet.
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
February 14 2012 14:44 GMT
#185
On February 11 2012 14:43 humanimal wrote:
If this is worth anything, here's a find:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aq-068L0cPIZdHdZR3JtaXlOdTZWQjJVb3FoUVZLM1E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=2&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Thanks

I'm going to make my own counterpick spreadsheet and try to fill it.
Xedat
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany358 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:51:20
February 14 2012 16:15 GMT
#186
Disregard me, I fail at posting.
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
February 14 2012 17:39 GMT
#187
Swain and Kennen can both demolish top lanes played correctly. Some like Yorick prove a bit troublesome.

Swain slows+snares guys like Udyr Tryndamere and Garen. Hes all about surviving until lvl 6, where you will have all the sustain in the world if you last hit correctly.

Kennen is a stun machine. Just don't try and trade with lightning rush combo on guys with CC, or else you will end up losing the trade. I remember thinking it was ok to try and do that to Garen... Oh my lord. Half my health gone instantly.

"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 17:44:22
February 14 2012 17:43 GMT
#188
On February 14 2012 12:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 20:55 Xedat wrote:
On February 13 2012 20:42 zer0das wrote:
On February 13 2012 08:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
On February 13 2012 03:15 barbsq wrote:
On February 13 2012 03:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Can we add Gangplank and nunu as counters to pantheon?
Nunu's that max iceball with a few points into consume can outsustain pantheon's harass and zone them from cs.
I've heard it's supposed to be similar for GPs.


no. GP isn't even remotely a counter to panth. GP can be more annoying for panth to deal with than some other champs, but he is not a counter in any sense of the word.

My mistake. I think nunu still stands though. I don't know if GP can zone pantheon as I don't own GP so I don't know about that matchup.


GP can't do anything at all against Pantheon. Parrrley is blocked by Pantheon's shield, so Pantheon wins pretty much every exchange. At best GP can farm if he plays hyper passively and eventually be more useful, but even that can be difficult if your jungler doesn't aid you.


The thing is we are talking about hard counters, Gp can still just farm normally with panth around, panths stun + hss combo gets denied by oranges, and if you just parley minions or panth when he doesn't have shield you still deal a lot of damage.
Gp might have to open cloth + 5, it might be one of the harder match ups but I wouldn't say Gp gets countered by panth specifically.
I mean the mana costs and total mana of spear and parrrley are pretty much the same, if gp just farms with q and gets w on a high level early panth wont get any kills.


Orange doesn't deny the W->E combo. The whole point of it is it gets pantheon into e range so that you eat the majority of HSS, as no one runs away fast enough pointblank -- and it's very hard to orange off the stun anyways because the stun is so short in duration. You'd have to react in one tenth of a second to actually get any of the stun reduced with the orange and you still stand there for a split second eating it, taking hss damage.

If pantheon pushes you to your tower and forces you to buy crappy items and farm with your skills then you're losing your lane, as pantheon can just go kill other lanes and invade the relevant buff on his side with his jungle why you sit at your tower. You can't defend it because you're A: busy last hitting a pushed wave and B: you're way weaker than pantheon in a head to head fight since you put levels in oranges. The only reversal to this is if your mid is winning as much as you're losing and can defend buffs, which isn't likely if pantheon can just burn his ult on mid while you passively sit at your tower and hope your ult can save the dude. (for reference, pantheon ult > gp ult when it comes to ganking lanes)

Dying or farming under tower are the most basic things that happen when you're counter picked in lane.


no it's not, it's just projectile timing. The stun isn't instant, and only begins once panth lands on GP, so it's really really easy to just orange it, just like orange-ing sion or taric stun.

edit: and i said this before, the HSS ticks don't matter as much as the 2nd q and autoattack that you lose from him orange-ing the stun.

Idk tho, i feel like i've expressed my stance on the matchup like 20 bajillion times, being that panth is stronger than gp in lane, but doesn't outright destroy him. Like, you can pick a lot worse things to go vs panth as than GP, so i wouldn't quantify it as a counter, just as a good matchup for panth.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 00:49:23
February 18 2012 00:47 GMT
#189
Lee Sin (Top)
+ Show Spoiler +
With a very mobile kit, fairly low CDs, and energy costs with his passive utilized, Lee Sin is an extremely formidable toplaner as well as a jungler. In the correct hands, he presents a very large harassment or kill threat at most levels if he is able to land his Q. For examples of a strong top lane Lee Sin, I recommend watching Chauster's stream if he is playing it - he is the most mechanically proficient Lee Sin who makes smart engagement decisions and plays LS top on a regular basis.

With his shield, Lee is able to handle the harssment of poking toplaners such as GP well, as well as being able to disengage from most CC almost instantaneously. His damage with his Q and E is formidable, and trading autoattacks with Lee Sin is usually inefficient due to the aspd slow on tempest combined with his lifesteal from W.

A strong pick against Lee top is Riven. She simply outdamages Lee at all levels (except for Lee's very quick level 6 burst), and unlike virtually every other toplaner, she has an instantaneous AoE CC to halt and damage Lee if he should try to Q or W near her at any point. Her shield is similarly if not more formidable than Lee's at higher levels, and provides unconditional mobility at all points (for example, if Lee decides to commit with the aid of a jungler, it is useful for dodging Lee's Q or to run away after a W should they catch her). Given that she can simply outtrade Lee, this lane is often turned into a 1 sided victory or farmfest for Riven, which are both favorable given her superior scaling.


Lee Sin (jungle):
+ Show Spoiler +
While jungling counters are inherently more difficult to accurately portray due to the greater number of circumstances that can affect jungling power or influence, Lee Sin has a significant amount of trouble against a well played Udyr. Phoenix Udyr's superior clear speed means that he should be above Lee Sin in levels at all points in the game, excepting a large amount of successful ganks from Lee; and Lee cannot duel Udyr at any point in the game for several reasons.
1. His inability to commit - should Lee be in a superior situation via Udyr getting low from creeps, having less buffs at the time, etc., Lee cannot commit very successfully to Udyr due to Udyr's bear stance. With the stun, Lee is inable to Q successfully to Udyr for several reasons - the movespeed makes it difficult for Lee to hit Udyr with the Q at all, and if he should, the stun will prevent Lee from casting Cripple onto him, which again combined with his movespeed from bear forces Lee to flash, exhaust, or ward and safeguard to it to attempt to slow Udyr at all.
2. Given similar levels / buffs, due to inferior damage and relative weakness of Resonating Strike thanks to Udyr's turtle stance, should the two fight on even terms (blue buff and level 2/3, or Red and 4 and beyond vs each other) Udyr will come ahead in almost every situation. Given his stronger and more spammable shield, Lee Sin is unable to get the needed amount of damage to deal a fatal Resonating Strike to Udyr in most reasonable 1v1s, and should he attempt to cast Cripple onto Udyr, Udyr can again simply bear stance Lee and get off superior damage at all stages of the game. When the midlanes are equally matched or go to roam, this has serious implications, as Udyr can have effective control over Lee Sin's red side jungle with minimal aid.
3. Relative counterganking ability - Lee Sin's counterganking ability against an Udyr gank is relatively weak, as due to Udyr's bear, his mobility is several weakened and he is fairly unable to commit due to his superior damage output and safety from a counterkill due to his turtle and bear combined. Except in the cases where either laner is at extremely low health, the best Lee can do in most gank situations is to peel for his own laner and provide relatively low counterkill opportunity. However, an Udyr countergank against Lee Sin can often be deadly, as he is an effective meat shield against Lee Sin's Q while providing strong damage and easy to apply CC for Lee and his laner, while not being afraid of being killed if any significant CDs were spent on his laner. Combined with Udyr's strong map mobility and superior clear speed, this usually puts Lee Sin on the back foot in the ganking / farming tempo.
Hey! Listen!
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
February 18 2012 12:37 GMT
#190
Good example of point 3 with lee sin jungle is in the second replay I posted in the udyr thread huehue.
JustAGame
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany161 Posts
February 18 2012 15:32 GMT
#191
Cassio -> Kassadin
Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun.
His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow
Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over.
For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.

Ryze -> Cassio
Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero.
pm me for free coaching
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
February 18 2012 15:43 GMT
#192
On February 19 2012 00:32 JustAGame wrote:
Cassio -> Kassadin
Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun.
His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow
Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over.
For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.

Ryze -> Cassio
Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero.


i allways felt that cassio shits on kassadin in lane. I have much more success vs burst mages like brand and annie as kassadin. Any kind of sustained damage generally shits on kass from my experience.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
February 18 2012 15:56 GMT
#193
Depends if you're talking post or pre 6. In pre 6, kass loses badly but has the added advantage that he supports ganks really well because of his silence.
JustAGame
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany161 Posts
February 18 2012 16:43 GMT
#194
On February 19 2012 00:43 clickrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:32 JustAGame wrote:
Cassio -> Kassadin
Kassadin counters all ap champs that do not have any kind of slow or stun.
His combo is: jump in, damage+silence+slow
Champs like Annie that can stun him, can trade at least almost even when the silence is over. champs that cant stun and are rather slow on their own cant trade with him at all, he can run out of range before the silence is over.
For that reason Kassadin is a great counter against Cassiopeia in laning phase.

Ryze -> Cassio
Due to the long autoattack animation and the fact that ryze needs to spam a lot of skills and therefore needs to stand while attacking, Cassiopeia can easily counter him in laning phase. When ever ryze want to last hit cassio either hits Q+2*E or ryze loses experience and farm. I usually get a kill on a ryze at lvl 3/4 OR cut his farm to zero.


i allways felt that cassio shits on kassadin in lane. I have much more success vs burst mages like brand and annie as kassadin. Any kind of sustained damage generally shits on kass from my experience.


Since kassadin is a melee farmer, you need blue / mana reg to farm pre lvl6 with q spell and you shouldnt go into any kind of exchange. Once you hit lvl 6 cassio is dead. There is just nothing you can do. Against annie you can RQE, but annie will stun you and auto attack you. When stun and silence are over you got everything on CD while annie can QWR.
In general you trade QE from Kassa vs QWQ and 3 auto attacks from Annie. This makes trading very bad as long as annie has her stun up.
Compare this to Cassio: the trade is QE from kassa vs 1-2 auto attacks from cassio.

Most playes will run away when silenced as annie, but if you run in you actually win the fight.
pm me for free coaching
APurpleCow
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1372 Posts
March 01 2012 19:10 GMT
#195
If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?
xbankx
Profile Joined July 2010
703 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 19:25:10
March 01 2012 19:24 GMT
#196
On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote:
If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?


For top laners, I would say garen, riven, kennen, yorick, and uydr probably has the fewest counters. Against garen, they can stack armor to make you less strong but generally if they stand in your spin they will still take a butt load of damage. Uydr has insane sustain(shield+regen health+mana). Only smart players who knows when to harass uydr can stay even with him in farm(ie you need to make him burn his mana by forcing stance change without taking too many damage). Riven has huge damage vs pretty much all ap tops. Melee tops can't do much to her due to her short cooldown-ish good damage stun. Kennen there is no counter. A good irelia can be troublesome but generally in 1500 elo-range, a decent kennen can farm vs any lane. Yorick is strong in lane and decent in teamfights. his damage isnt high tho(unless you copy a range ad and knida loses to trundle).

For mid lane, ahri and brand and ryze seems solid vs most champs(excluding leblanc).
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
March 01 2012 19:42 GMT
#197
On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote:
If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?


I don't play top but for mid the two safest champions in the game right now are easily Morgana and Ryze imo. And both are the safest for pretty much the same reasons. You can't stop either champion from getting their farm. You aren't going to ever zone a Morgana. It's gonna be pretty impossible to stop Ryze from getting his farm either. And in Ryze's case he can farm at tower incredibly easy because of his kit and his passive. So long as you don't go OOM as either champion, and I find it's actually kind of hard to go OOM on either, you really don't have any lanes that you're going to straight up lose. Both of these champions are pretty easy to play too imo.

As Ryze, if you get your farm and your team doesn't lose too hard early game you're going to hit a point where you become a god because Ryze is absolutely broken right now. There will be games as Ryze when you can easily 1v3 portions of the enemy team.

There are lots of other good AP picks that don't have hard counters but these two champions can get kills in lots of lanes and they can't really be denied farm against any other common AP mids. They both scale incredibly well into late game too. So yeah, they're the most "safe" choices right now.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
March 24 2012 01:59 GMT
#198
Talon-->Ashe(mid lane)
+ Show Spoiler +

While Ashe is generally regarded as being an unfavorable AD carry in comparison to the likes of Graves, Vayne, or Kog'Maw, she does counter Talon. Talon is a melee burst champion who relies on closing with minions t farm them, with one exception-Rake, his Q. However, Ashe's volley is easily capable of outranging Talon's Rake.
In addition, Talon's usual trading combo of E-Q-W or E-R-Q-W is largely nullified by Ashe, as Ashe has both a) the ability to slow you during the initial E, and b) the abilities to either slow you or reveal you during your R. A good Ashe can react quickly to a Talon's burst combo and take little damage with the exception of Noxian Diplomacy and/or a few autoattacks.
Also, Ashe's Q shots absolutely punish an aggressive Talon to the point where he is almost entirely shutdown.

Sorry if any of this is incorrect, but I believe it is practical advice.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-24 02:12:34
March 24 2012 02:12 GMT
#199
On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote:
If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?


Udyr/Irelia/Lee sin!
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
March 24 2012 02:58 GMT
#200
On March 02 2012 04:42 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 04:10 APurpleCow wrote:
If I'm first pick in ranked, what characters can I pick mid or top that can't really be counterpicked?


I don't play top but for mid the two safest champions in the game right now are easily Morgana and Ryze imo.


I'd say Ryze is extremely weak against Cass, to the point where she will deny farm and/or kill you repeatedly, and you can't do anything about it on your own. Aggressive Vlads will also be a pain. Ryze is good against most other mids though.
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