[D] Specific counter picks - Page 4
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InvaderUK
225 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On February 03 2012 12:53 Chairman Ray wrote: Taric Support + Show Spoiler [Alistar] + Alistar will usually beat Taric in lane. Taric's only major advantage as a support is his engagement power in lane. His stun, armor buff, and armor debuff make it so that he wins every bottom lane engage, that is except against Alistar. Taric is unable to get his stun shatter combo against an Alistar because Alistar will just retaliate with pulverize headbutt. Any sort of stun engagement Taric does gets denied with headbutt. Alistar will outpoke and outsustain Taric, leading to a lane victory. Urgot AD Carry + Show Spoiler [Taric] + Once urgot lands his bomb, pop a stun on him and he'll only be able to shoot maybe one dagger. With your armor buff, dagger damage is cut down drastically. Without lane bullying, Urgot isn't very strong overall. + Show Spoiler [Soraka] + Urgot's harass has no way of outdamaging Soraka's heal and armor buff. Once Urgot lands a bomb, silence him and heal as needed. Same reason as above, without Urgot being able to harass, he's much less a threat. RE: urgot vs soraka. Imo, you have a good point, but it's backwards. Urgot doesn't really give a shit about the armor buff, since grenade applies % armor reduction. The bigger deal is the silence during q's. I think i went over this in GD at one point, but I had a quick revisitation of urgot for bot lane, and routinely thrashed soraka lanes who just tried to mindlessly heal. At the same time tho, I kno i had issues vs kassadin in lane a long time ago (in the days of solo lane urgot) and concluded it was almost solely due to his silence, which would lead me to believe it if somebody told me that soraka is good vs urgot, but it would be because of silence, with the heal as an added annoyance, not primarily because of her heal. On February 03 2012 21:27 r.Evo wrote: Hmm... can we sum it up as Smash GP > random panth and Smash Panth > random GP? Stupid outcome for this thread, I'll stfu. =P I would still qualify panth as a gp counter, solely due to the opportunity cost of requiring that much defense before even thinking about offensive items (which are very necessary for GP's efficacy). I admit, however, that while i'm confident panth is almost certainly stronger than gp in lane, I will concede that, with the above armor setup and maxing w, GP not only has the capability to evade certain death via eating oranges, but also is capable from farming decently enough at range, and with double gp5 and a mess of armor items, would be able to pull it out for the late game better than many other champs would. Then we get into kind of a grey area where it's not quite so certain that panth is necessarily a counter, at which point it depends on how quickly you need your GP to kick in, as well as taking jungle interferance into account (because panth is def vulnerable to jungle ganks). i don't think there's any doubt that GP would put on his sad face if he saw panth in lane. On February 03 2012 22:32 mr_tolkien wrote: «For whatever reason» = not really an in depth explanation of the match up... >.> Waiting for the B letter from Na'vi :p i would be inclined to believe slayer, even just on a vote of confidence. He's def one of the better players on this subforum ![]() | ||
Navi
5286 Posts
here's B & C i dun want to do most ADs, as they seem to be played solely bottom these days, and those matchups are decided with support pick and playstyle etc. etc. if there is a notable counterpick as an AD (i.e. caitlyn vs kassadin) then i will mention them in kassadin's list for example. Brand: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler + Brand’s strength in lane depends upon landing his W. After the range nerf to his E, it has become more difficult for Brand players to make efficient long range poke / poke trades with E in the combo. Should you find yourself laning versus Brand, you will want to open boots the vast majority of the time, as if you can reliably dodge his W’s, you can come out of laning unscathed if your goal is to outfarm and outscale him, or out-trade him if your goal is to kill him in lane. While he does have the kit to clear creeps, if he does not have access to blue (killed with blue, blue stolen, enemy jungler has their blue, etc.) he cannot keep up clear speeds mid as compared to other fast and more mana efficient lane clearers. Thus, smart picks against Brand include Xerath (huge range advantage over Brand, more reliable poke, movespeed steroid on w if siege-ing onto Brand and he approaches you, stronger and more reliable burst at 6), Morgana and Galio (for mana efficient lane clearing and some form of protection from his burst and poke as needed), Karthus (Brand has difficulty approaching a cautious Karthus due to wall. If Karthus takes care to not get hit by Brand’s skillshots, he can easily farm his lane to the point where he has greater map presence and lane clearing ability than Brand), Cassiopeia (she has greater range on her q, a variety of slows / speeds which are useful in skillshot battles, and if she avoids Brand’s stun, can win any head on engagement with ease), Mordekaiser (with proper regen and mres, Morde can essentially ignore any harass from Brand while pushing with extreme efficiency and landing incidental harassment with E from very early on. 12 health pot openings are the best huehuehue). Cassiopeia: (Mid / Top) + Show Spoiler + Cassiopeia as of right now has very little trouble in most 1v1 lanes. Her ability to poke with low cd and mana cost (Q) and her ability to commit to trades with little fear of losing due to the reset mechanic on her e make her a fearsome opponent in lane. The movement speed duration buff, combined with the range increase buff on her E, essentially guarantees that she can hit an E after she lands a Q, excepting very large movement speed differences. A notable counterpick is Galio. His bulwark essentially mitigates or even heals off of a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DoT damage (Cass W + Q) and reduces a very large portion of Cassiopeia’s DPS from her E. Even when his bulwark is on cooldown, his Q has enough range (and a slow active) as to prevent consistent harassment. Overall, with smart bulwark and teleport usage, Galio should never be in danger of dying, and can force backs from Cassiopeia before she obtains a revolver or some other form of sustain in lane. He clears with higher mana efficiency and speed, and can thus exert pressure on wraiths and other lanes with greater ease. Cho’Gath: (Top) + Show Spoiler + Cho’Gath is also a notable champion with very few counters with correct runes and masteries. His sustain and consistent damage make it very difficult to trade with Cho’Gath unless the Cho in question is very bad at lasthitting or is pressured early on so that he cannot come back into lasthitting range (early jungler ganks, etc.). He also has great flexibility in itemization, especially defensive items, and as such can utilize this along with the free HP granted from his ultimate to become immovable in lane. The vast majority of top lane champions thus cannot win straight up against a smart Cho player. Most typical “AD bruisers” are not an exception to this against a Cho with a 25 + armor setup. However, a few can feel very comfortable trading farm with Cho’Gath. Irelia, Riven, and Tryndamere all can trade farm with Cho’Gath (Riven and Tryndamere have methods of escaping his combo with good reaction time, and Irelia has a situational dash / high sustain as well) and come out ahead in the lategame – although they may feel weak in the first dragon fight if Cho’Gath chooses to take teleport and teleports there, as his AoE cc and true damage burst tends to contribute more to early fights. Edit: I can't believe I forgot Gangplank. Gangplank can simply zone Cho'Gath from level 1, as Cho needs to stay reasonably close to CS - his sustain is entirely dependent on lasthitting, and GP can deal great damage from level 1 and put Cho in a situation where he cannot autoattack for lasthits. Corki: (Mid) + Show Spoiler + While Corki is typically played bottom in today’s League of Legends, he was once one of the greatest mid lane dominators. His clearing ability and strong poke make him a viable solo in double AD and various AoE comps. Corki excels against those whom he can utilize his strong autoattack and q against – thus melee casters such as Kassadin and Gragas can often struggle against Corki in lane. On the other hand, laners with a strong form of counterharass can be played against Corki with success – Cassiopeia does not fear Corki’s harass because if she lands a q she can come ahead drastically. Also, valkyrie-ing onto Cassiopeia post 6 is suicide for Corki, as her ult will destroy any ability to trade. Corki should have cleanse and a very, very large health difference if he wishes to attempt something of the sort. A less hard counter but notable pick against Corki is Anivia – her autoattack range is sufficiently long that she can lasthit effectively, and if Corki makes it clear that he wishes to harass her, she can aim for a Q + E if his path of travel is readable. Her clear efficiency with blue exceeds that of Corki’s, and she has harder scaling in the right team composition. | ||
buttersworth
Sweden50 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Solo top, Mordekaiser > Olaf. I think this one's very clear-cut as well. (Shield > true dmg. Olaf is melee. I can explain more in-detail but yeah...) Jax > Tryndamere, Gangplank, from what I've seen thus far. Might be a bit too early to call but either way he can dodge Gangplank's Parrrley and vs Tryndamere yeah it's pretty obvious again. | ||
buttersworth
Sweden50 Posts
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face the payNe
Portugal10 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
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InvaderUK
225 Posts
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face the payNe
Portugal10 Posts
On February 04 2012 10:53 InvaderUK wrote: Also if panth ults then shen can follow in it's pretty legit. That can actually work, yes. Can also shield the spears. | ||
buttersworth
Sweden50 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote: Here's one. Solo top Riven + Show Spoiler + General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven: 1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes. A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler + Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler + Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler + Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler + Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler + A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler + Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler + Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler + Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler + Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond. Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her. Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means. Lee: Lol i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol | ||
Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On February 04 2012 10:46 buttersworth wrote: Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q. I remember a bunch of people said malphite was another counter to pantheon in the pantheon thread for much the same reason. Malphite has a nice shield to block spears, so he should come out ahead in trades if he maxes his Q and waits for his shield. It's not like you can get into an autoattack fight with malphite either. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
For whatever reason I seem to stomp yorick in the nuts with Xin every time I play that matchup. Like, 100% body that son of a bitch with Xin Zhao, lol. Shen is a soft counter to Pantheon at best, it's a weird matchup. Maxing W will lose you the lane. Something like QWWQERQQQWREEEERWW, but I think the matchup is almost always won by the junglers. Not sure why Sion went out of style top, he murders a lot of people top. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote: Here's one. Solo top Riven + Show Spoiler + General information: Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven: 1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain. 2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak. 3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes. A few general tips for laning vs. Riven: -Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer. -Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output. -Buy ninja tabi. Always. -Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good. -If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw. + Show Spoiler + Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane. + Show Spoiler + Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over. + Show Spoiler + Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing. + Show Spoiler + Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately. + Show Spoiler + A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually. + Show Spoiler + Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP. + Show Spoiler + Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent. + Show Spoiler + Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks. + Show Spoiler + Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft. Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start. In addition to what Navi said above, I would point out that in the case of Udyr, Lee, Nasus, Cho, and Panth, stalemating against Riven isn't good enough. She becomes WAY stronger than any of them mid-lategame, so they have to do significantly better than just trading farm to be considered a "counter". Trading farm is signficantly advantageous to Riven in those cases. | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On February 04 2012 10:46 buttersworth wrote: Shen counters Pantheon really hard everywhere since you can just max W and block every spear he throws and harrass with Q. Well Pantheon gets freefarm though and imo Shen is just bad so rather have panth >_> Unless the Shen builds AP with Rylai, then he's imba. | ||
Craton
United States17243 Posts
Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another. | ||
0123456789
United States3216 Posts
On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote: I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all. Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another. Sona counters every1. She's a godlike motha fucka who owns every1 singlehandedly. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On February 04 2012 15:17 Craton wrote: I don't get why you have supports listed as counter picking other supports. Supports don't counter each other; it's the combination of the lane that matters for bot. I can go janna and shut down Trist's jumps, but if I'm with a weak laner like an Ashe it doesn't matter at all. Janna doesn't counter Alistar. If I'm going to WQ combo you, I'm going to hit it regardless of her trying to hit me with a Q. At most you might stop a flash q into w, but that's the same for basically every support. This goes right down the list with scenarios between various ad+support combinations. There's no one support that counters another. Gonna have to agree with Mr. Craton here. If this thread is meant as a detailed, paragraphed based counter pick list, it is only fitting for 1v1s. In reality, Bot lane as well as Jungle, there are simply too many variables to account for. You could have team fight counter picks too (e.g. Udyr's Bear Stance is pretty rough for a Galio who tries to ulti) but I wouldn't suggest it. Keep the scope of this thread narrow and things make much more sense. It should revolve largely around laning phase. | ||
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