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On February 02 2012 07:06 Navi wrote:cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc. galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well). xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well. 1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than.
Counterpick morg for me pls. Assume no blues cos junglers steal all blues. No skillshot heroes dem too hardz. Also galio no count cos I need pure AP mage.
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On February 03 2012 00:50 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
Akali
I mentioned this previously in the akali thread, but worth mentioning here since it's relevant. Garen and Cassiopeia are also hard counters due to their aoe skills which negates her shroud, and their trades are superior to that of akali's.
You can add Gragas to that list too, She can't hide in her shroud because of barrel's long range and AoE, and if she tries to go for the kill post-6, Gragas can ER to gain a huge amount of distance.
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On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally.
Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP.
Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
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On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
that's only players who know what panth is capable of with right rune/masteries setup , i.e. high elo. At 1500s elo I routinely stomp GPs who obviously max q first, thinking cloth 5pots + armor masteries would be enough to mitigate my spears (it isn't).
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Loving this thread thus far, I don't really have time to watch much LoL so this will really help me when do play. One thing I haven't seen though: No jungler counter picks yet. I normally play jungler and understand some basic concepts, but hard counter picks would really be nice when I see typical low-ELO things like Amumu or Shaco first picks.
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Ez doesn't really counter Vayne. You have to keep in mind it's duo lane bot. Vayne+Taric will own Ez+support. Vayne can just hide behind minions and dodge your q. If you not going AP Ez, your W isn't gonna do anything.
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I dont think there are any AD vs AD counters aside from vayne having a really hard time vs graves/cait, which can be made up by having a good support matchup.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On February 03 2012 03:40 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:06 Navi wrote:On February 02 2012 06:54 emucxg wrote:
Morgana counters all standard ap mid cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc. galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well). xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well. 1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than. Counterpick morg for me pls. Assume no blues cos junglers steal all blues. No skillshot heroes dem too hardz. Also galio no count cos I need pure AP mage.
Vlad. 21/9/0, walk up and q her every time it's off cooldown, should be pretty easy to dodge Qs, W's aren't an issue just don;t stand in them, autoattack as much as needed to counteract early W push spam.
Hit 6-7, buy revolver, spam E and Q and you completely outtrade and outpush Morgana. Don't need blue. Wota/cdr boots/spirit visage if needed in whatever order makes sense. Buy wards and dont get ganked since you'll be up in her face the whole time. only requirement is for people in your other lanes to have acceptable amounts of cc and/or initiate for team fights.
Vlad #1 op.
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Champions like nunu, tryn, teemo, malphite, nasus, and rammus are anticarries in the sense that they can counter carries.
Nasus usually builds frozen heart and his W slows by up to 95%. Starts at 35%. Lasts 5 seconds. Can you imagine someone with 5% of their attack speed?
Tryndamere's poultry shout reduces AD by 80 (before crits). I consider it at least a 33% reduction in damage on standard IE 2xPdancer builds. Lasts 4 seconds. Really strong if you didn't build to counter tryn - trust me on this. Before the patch a few weeks ago it was even stronger 0_o.
Teemo blinds the AD carry.
Malphite slows many AD carries at once with randuins/frozen heart. His slam will cut dps on AD carries in half. Lasts 4 seconds.
Nunu's snowball, and his R slow attack speed by 25% each individually (~44% stacked?) and his W makes your AD carry have +65% attack speed. He will also build frozen heart.
Rammus has a taunt, his R and thornmail. If there is any lag, you will die before you have a chance to QSS out.
Most of these champions (save teemo, support nunu) aren't great vs AD carries in lane though.
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On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth.
i refer you to:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=17#338
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=16#309
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#320
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#302
in 1 post, smash says he ends up doing OK with pantheon when he does super defensive builds, but there's no way GP is even remotely a counter, or even particularly strong vs pantheon, and the only reason he does all right is kus oranges are OP and mess up the death combo.
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I'm pretty sure Ryze beats Vlad. During the early levels when Ryze is weak, Vlad is similarly weak and has a very long cooldown on Transfusion. In the mid-game, Vlad suffers from a really low range on Transfusion combined with no gap closers. This means Ryze can Q Vlad at will, and stuff any aggression from Vlad with W (which outranges Vlad's Q). Late-game, Ryze scales much harder than Vlad so Vlad can't just trade farm.
Also, it seems like Soraka shuts down Caitlyn in the 2v2 bot lane matchup. Caitlyn's harass is negated by Soraka's heal, and Caitlyn gets out-scaled by just about every other AD bot.
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Vayne has no chance against Corki bottom lane.
Her range is too low against him, every time you go up to cs you get hit so hard by corki. Graves is very good for the same reason, but not as good of a counter as corki imo.
Also, to counter Ryze, cassio, brand, and orianna are incredibly good against him. He literally can't do anything.
GP gets beat top by rumble and singed the hardest imo. With singed, you lose early levels, but you should be fine with cloth armor 5 pots, then once you get tabi + another cloth you just walk through him and destroy him, tower diving over and over if you want. Rumble is similar, you just have to wait til level 3-4 taking parley harrass and then you just press q and walk towards him.
Any melee champ top gets countered by vladimir :/
edit: just my sentiments on counters. Also, most of the time bruiser vs bruiser top lane is "won" by whoever pushes fearlessly without wards early and gets minion wave advantage. Of course it backfires when jungler comes.
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Taric Support
+ Show Spoiler [Alistar] +Alistar will usually beat Taric in lane. Taric's only major advantage as a support is his engagement power in lane. His stun, armor buff, and armor debuff make it so that he wins every bottom lane engage, that is except against Alistar. Taric is unable to get his stun shatter combo against an Alistar because Alistar will just retaliate with pulverize headbutt. Any sort of stun engagement Taric does gets denied with headbutt. Alistar will outpoke and outsustain Taric, leading to a lane victory.
Urgot AD Carry
+ Show Spoiler [Taric] +Once urgot lands his bomb, pop a stun on him and he'll only be able to shoot maybe one dagger. With your armor buff, dagger damage is cut down drastically. Without lane bullying, Urgot isn't very strong overall.
+ Show Spoiler [Soraka] +Urgot's harass has no way of outdamaging Soraka's heal and armor buff. Once Urgot lands a bomb, silence him and heal as needed. Same reason as above, without Urgot being able to harass, he's much less a threat.
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On February 03 2012 11:53 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:15 r.Evo wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 sob3k wrote:I guess we should put the really hard and obvious to most TLers counterpicks too: Gangplank Top+ Show Spoiler +Pantheon shits all over GP top, to the extent that you should never go against panth with GP, he trades better with spears and his passive will block parrley almost everytime, forcing GP out of lane or killing him brutally. Wait what. You're completely off here, when even our #1 panth in our hearts (smash) says he picks GP vs any Panth cause Panth has no chance against GP. Start cloth +5, max W, win lane. If anything GP counter panth. i refer you to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=17#338http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166433¤tpage=16#309http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#320http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258275¤tpage=16#302in 1 post, smash says he ends up doing OK with pantheon when he does super defensive builds, but there's no way GP is even remotely a counter, or even particularly strong vs pantheon, and the only reason he does all right is kus oranges are OP and mess up the death combo.
Hmm... can we sum it up as Smash GP > random panth and Smash Panth > random GP? Stupid outcome for this thread, I'll stfu. =P
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+ Show Spoiler [Rumble] +
Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] +
Nasus. Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls, I believe. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
Obviously I'm only trying to help with champs I know most about. Irelia is my other main top champ and she seems to randomly lose/beat everyone depending how you play//how you rune etc.
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On February 03 2012 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Rumble] +
Nasus. For whatever reason I have always seemed to flat out >WIN< when I play Nasus vs rumble, even in 1v1's with no jungler. You have enough sustain that you can just rush philo-->boots-->spirit visage and every time he flame spitters you just run away, eat 2 ticks, then go lifesteal and regen to full again. Around level 7-11 ish you can just wait for him to use Q, when it's on the last tick you W E Q and if he R's you you R him, you at least force a flash if not straight up kill him. Even if you don't want to fight him, if he attempts to stop you free farming and pushes you to tower not only can you CS and sustain yourself there but the jungler gank is a guaranteed kill with your E. You might want a couple points in E over W. Attack speed slow is not a priority versus him while arpen makes him extra squishy and the damage and pushing power helps if he tries to roam. (Altho TP should solve this roaming problem).
Nasus. Yorick excels at laning against champions who want to trade in some way. Yorick excels at trading and harassing. He can harass with W and E and his E heals him so much that it's impossible to out harass him, and it's hard to straight up fight him because of his passive and again E healing. Nasus has more sustain than most champs when it comes to just eating his harass and farming, and also benefits the most from farming passively. Yorick also can't really escape ganks from Nasus like he can other lanes, his speed and slow is much less than Nasus W. Nasus can also Q farm off his ghouls, I believe. Nasus seems to be a nightmare to yorick although some of this is due to watching Sypher pick him against Dyrus' yorick I think and seeing how it went.
Obviously I'm only trying to help with champs I know most about. Irelia is my other main top champ and she seems to randomly lose/beat everyone depending how you play//how you rune etc.
«For whatever reason» = not really an in depth explanation of the match up... >.>
Waiting for the B letter from Na'vi :p
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How about you read the rest of what I wrote then?  It just seems like Nasus' combination of lots of sustain for versus harass and his ultimate to win in burst trades. .You can sustain his harass and weather his burst in a 1v1. Just seems like a really unlikely counter.
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Thanks a lot for this, very good and educational read =)
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On February 03 2012 22:34 Slayer91 wrote:How about you read the rest of what I wrote then? It just seems like Nasus' combination of lots of sustain for versus harass and his ultimate to win in burst trades. .You can sustain his harass and weather his burst in a 1v1. Just seems like a really unlikely counter.
Well the thing is that you talk about a philo rush but... How can you even afford a Philo ? It's like saying Irelia counters Panth past 6 with decent stuff. The matter of fact is that early she'll get destroyed and should reach 6 with ninja tabis and a cloth.
I'm pretty sure if you win with Nasus VS Rumble it's because you weren't shut down fast enough. Past philo/6 nasus can farm as much as he wants anyway, in all match ups, but he should be completly crippled going there.
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Rumble can't do anything to an MR page with a hp regen early levels. His spells don't do any damage to you. His flame spitter only really starts hurting at about level 5, and that's about the time you go back and buy philo and boots and pots and wards, and tp back to lane.
Level 9 rumble's Q does 5x the damage as level 2 rumble's Q. Level 1 pantheon has like, what, 70 AD? Pantheon doesn't show up at level 9 with 350 AD, does he?
Starting philo is generally riskier against people who can constantly come to auto hit attack you and having higher AD/lifesteal is better than regen. Casters are a totally different story. Rumble pushes so much with Q there's just no way you can be zoned by it if you're playing smart and not just tanking his whole duration of it.
I also don't buy pantheon destroying irelia. Irelia gets picked so many times at top level and is never once "counterpicked" (except by an outpushing her shyvana, maybe). From what I hear smash say you basically have to be ready to tower dive her that's how agressive you have to play but I feel like it's just too juicy of a lane for a jungler to "camp" when you know if irelia gets decent cs she'll win lane later easily. (I guess you can counter gank or whatever but that depends on what junglers you tend to play, for me udyr almost never loses counter gank situations)
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EPT
