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[D] Specific counter picks - Page 7

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Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 05 2012 19:22 GMT
#121
On February 05 2012 21:20 Alaric wrote:
I think that's because we have different views on what is needed to "counter" a champ : apparently Navi said Morg counters Gragas because Black Shield negates his ult displacement and turns the lane into a farmfest where Gragas can't get kills. Whereas I say Gragas counters Morg because he can instaclear and prevent her from afk pool-farming, while escaping her ultimate and retaining his own ability to instaclear then roam.

Also, Navi has substantially better understanding of the game than myself and has an higher Elo, which means he plays with/against better Gragas/Morgana than I do (lots of bad Morgs at low level, even when people claim she's simple), so when in doubt, stick with him.


i apologize, didn't mean to equate that "black sh ield blocking his ult = counter"

i was just thinking, what is invulnerable or affects grag ult
and was making a list

that matchup actually fairly stagnant at the beginning, morg usually cannot reliably get harass on grag (he is more likely to land his q on her than vice versa) and her autoattack range is mediocre (if he attempts to autoattack gragas regularly she sets herself up for barrels or even body slams if positioned so) so her auto harass is minimal at best

agreed that gragas has more mobility and more ability to gank post blues, but if the jungler should decide to hold lane morgana can also exert a lot of countergank power by following him

wouldn't mention it as a big counter either way, but not a bad matchup for grag relative to other matchups vs APs
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Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 05 2012 19:29 GMT
#122
On February 05 2012 22:34 Humbuuzio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 11:28 Navi wrote:
On February 03 2012 01:14 Humbuuzio wrote:
Here's one.

Solo top Riven
+ Show Spoiler +
General information:
Riven is a beast at trading because of her amazing AD scaling and passive. Pretty much no one can win a trade with Riven when she can use all of her abilities. This is why she can bully many top champions, win her lane and even get 1v1 kills. There are three good ways to counter Riven:

1. Accept that you lose the trade and heal yourself back up from minions with champions that have strong sustain.
2. Accept that you lose the trade but force a prolonged fight where Riven's abilities are on cooldown and her damage becomes quite weak.
3. Outrange Riven and never allow her to come close enough to trade with youm while still farming creeps. This requires an escape ability with a similar cooldown to Riven's Broken Wings - long range is not enough because of Riven's amazing mobility and lane bushes.

A few general tips for laning vs. Riven:
-Riven's ultimate increases her mobility, because the short hops from Riven's Q and E become significantly longer.
-Riven should almost never be followed into a bush, even when she seems to be running away and at low health, because if she activates her ultimate and waits for someone to follow, she is able to kill many champions from 100% in a few seconds. This happens because she doesn't have to use abilities to chase and can utilise her maximum damage output.
-Buy ninja tabi. Always.
-Buy armor items early on. Wriggle's is also very good.
-If you force Riven to build "badly" to win her lane (= survivability instead of attack damage) you have made her weaker in teamfights and as such the lane can be considered to have ended in a draw.


+ Show Spoiler +
Gangplank destroys Riven at levels 1-3. Skill order is QEQ. He is able to harass very effectively at level 1 with Parrrley, but the true killer is Gangplank's passive. With 3 stacks it slows for 21% and does considerable damage over time, while Riven's Q ability probably has a ~8-12 second cooldown (depending on how quickly she spammed Q). A Riven will win a trade while she has charges in her passive but after that she is unable to run away or fight back and will most likely just die or be forced to use a flash to escape. Because of this Gangplank can secure an early lead and usually dominate his lane. Most Riven players do not realise this and it is very easy to get first blood in this lane.


+ Show Spoiler +
Udyr, who maxes turtle stance first, will become effectively immortal after level ~7. His tiger stance allows him to trade effectively against Riven as well. Riven can win against Udyr on the early levels, but after Udyr get's wriggle's lantern the lane is effectively over.


+ Show Spoiler +
Nasus will heal all of Riven's damage with his passive and also do pretty well in the trades with Wither and Siphoning Strike. Once Nasus buys frozen heart Riven can do nothing.


+ Show Spoiler +
Lee sin, who maxes W skill first can outsustain Riven and his high damage allows him to not lose the trades lopsidedly. He must build wriggles immediately.


+ Show Spoiler +
A Cho'Gath that has armor and attack damage runes will lose trades, but do enough damage to Riven that she cannot ignore it. After the trade Cho will heal to full from killing creeps. Riven will be pushed to her tower and lose in last hits eventually.


+ Show Spoiler +
Irelia who plays scared and buys as much armor as possible early on (levels 1-7) and maxes her W skill first to get the necessary sustain will eventually be able to force Riven out of the lane. Irelia should buy either wriggle's or warden's mail ASAP.


+ Show Spoiler +
Pantheon has even better AD scaling than Riven and his passive will block a lot of damage in a sustained fight. The only weakness of Pantheon is that he will run out of mana. A Pantheon that starts spamming spears at level 1 will be out of mana and therefore unable to kill Riven until he goes back. However, if he waits until level 3 and starts throwing rank 2 spears, it will take about 5-6 spears + 2-4 autoattacks + ignite to go from full health to dead. If Riven can get Pantheon to waste mana she can win the lane, but that requires an unskilled opponent.


+ Show Spoiler +
Kennen can farm creeps from a long range and escape with Lightning Rush if Riven tries to come near. Kennen should max W first and try to harass with every 5th attack to proc the lightning marks.


+ Show Spoiler +
Caitlyn, Graves, Vayne, Ezreal, Corki all have an escape method and long range. I haven't met any of these champions at top lane with Riven, so this counter is purely theorycraft.


Unfortunately I do not know how to make the champion name a part of the spoiler link. Also I could not figure out a way to properly include some of the info under the specific champions, so I just intoduced it generally at the start.


Vs. Gangplank, Riven indeed cannot commit if she has a summoner spell disadvantage at level 1 (I often run teleport, and if I run against a GP with ignite or exhaust I will not fight at level 1). However, if there is summoner spell parity, she can indeed commit to a level 1 fight with similar creep aggro and if GP does not get a lucky crit off. I personally feel no need to commit this early and would rather wait for levels 3 and beyond, where I can force GP to use his w to heal if he wants to come out ahead in head to head trades and thus run him out of mana. A more extreme method to counter early parley harass is to practice reaction - E'ing parley, and using that as much as possible at level 1. You forfeit the creep advantage at early levels, but you ensure your survive-ability and ungank-ability by doing so: you can rely on your superior scaling to win the lane at 3 and beyond.

Udyr: the lane is effectively over in that it becomes a farmfest if the lane stagnates like such. Riven with her passive and skills is able to farm at tower if she cannot trade against Udyr with wriggles, and indeed likes to do so because she scales harder. When Riven gains her first BF sword or BT, she destroys Udyr in 1v1 scenarios once again. As you mentioned, Riven even has the opportunity to win the lane before 6, making this lane a decent one for her.

Nasus: Riven poops on Nasus early. If Nasus runes and masteries for full armor, he can kind of lasthit - but still not an ideal matchup for Nasus by any means.

Lee: Lol

i agree with a lot of your reasoning for most of these guys, but the conclusions are kind of weird lol

The conclusions are from my own experience. However, I actually learned yesterday that the Riven vs GP dynamic is more like you describe than what I did. If Riven plays supremely defensive early on, she can win later on.

Udyr getting destroyed by Riven with BF / BT I kind of don't think is correct, however I must test it out against a good Udyr. I hope I'm wrong and learn something. I also agree Riven scales better, but the post is only about the laning phase.

Riven beats Nasus really early, but if Riven starts trading she automatically pushes the lane. Also fear of the enemy jungler makes it hard to commit hard enough early enough to make a difference. Exactly as you described with Riven vs GP, Nasus can forfeit the early creeps and farm at tower.

You also don't think Lee is strong vs Riven? Could you tell me why you think it is so? Lee is a lot worse late game, but this is about the laning phase. I think his build in sustain and E allow him to be effective against Riven, though it most definitely is not a hard counter.

Could you elaborate on any other weird conclusions you got from me? It's hard to find good sources of information about these matters. Who do you think counters Riven?


riven does not fear trading farm with even nasus, as she deals much more AoE damage all game and is minimally affected by his wither due to a large part of her mobility and damage coming from her spells. coupled with the fact that she can bully him and has greater pushing ability, she can control the lane as she pleases

lee loses trades, riven can force him to w away just by being near him (fear of being stunned etc). when those kinds of situations come into play then you are automatically being put onto the back foot. its not even as if riven has mana costs so she loses nothing in these situations.

olaf outdamages riven at close ranges post level 5, as stacking a defensive stat is useless vs. his E. in this case you want to build dblades for the buffer HP and run ignite and maybe even heal if you're really afraid - and then the trades will be very close. he reaches his peak of power at around level 7, so you want to play passively and ask for ganks then - once you're around level 11 everything stagnates out, and by lategame you are far more useful
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Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 06 2012 08:06 GMT
#123
Heimerdinger: (Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
Heimerdinger’s strength in lane comes from his pushing ability combined with his health regen passive, which has extreme effectiveness in small trades at early levels. His extremely long range rockets almost ensure that an opponent who does not retreat at the appropriate time will get hit, and by doing so he exerts lane control.

The CC of his kit is fairly unremarkable, as he has a conditional stun that is hard to land. As such, the most reliable counter to Heimerdinger is strong ganks from junglers such as Maokai, Lee Sin, Rammus etc. combined with a laner who can stagnate the lane while having CC to support such ganks.

Anivia has a relatively smooth opponent against Heimerdinger due to her long autoattack range, which keeps her safe from Heimer’s W if she positions herself correctly amongst her creeps – Heimerdinger is unable to suppress her development, and her superior lategame (versus Heimerdinger’s pushing) and clearing power with blue buff has always made this a solid matchup.

Of the newer APs, anybody with significant range, clearing power, or burst should be OK versus Heimerdinger as long as they do not eat too many of his missiles. His lack of a big impact ultimate makes it fairly simple for enemy APs with stuns to build damage at level 5 and go for a kill at level 6, so anyone who can do so safely is a decent pick. Xerath’s long range autoattack and spells, in particular his ultimate, make commiting for a kill at level 6 a straightforward affair.


Irelia: (Top)
+ Show Spoiler +
Irelia is typically played with max-W builds in today’s game as its great sustain and true damage allow her to bully enemy toplaners who like to come close to deal damage in extended periods of laning. This combined with defensive runes and masteries (i.e. 27 MR or 25 armor runepages) allow her to exert control over a variety of matchups, from fellow bruisers to autoattack harassers (Nidalee, Kennen, etc. may actually take more damage from creep aggro in harassing a properly runed Irelia than vice versa from harass). Her ability to equalize many lanes with 3 ranks in W, combined with her strong mid-lategame make Irelia a very popular and steady choice in toplane.

A counter to a properly runed Irelia is rare to find. Of the bruisers that go top, Olaf is perhaps the most solid choice in that his E will deal true damage that even Irelia has trouble healing back up in time for the next E. Start with Q at level 1 and from there on out max E, taking care to E on cooldown while q’ing if she ever attempts to run away or commit to you. If you manage to pick up your axe and harass properly, Irelia should not be able to win an exchange.



i need to think of more irelia counterpicks
against heimer, if you can avoid most of his rockets or trade favorably through his passive you should be fine - his kill threat is not very large, you either need to be able to pressure kills onto him or deal with his pushing
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De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
February 06 2012 08:38 GMT
#124
i like nasus vs irelia
GANDHISAUCE
Zerksys
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States569 Posts
February 06 2012 09:42 GMT
#125
Some champs that I play:

Garen
+ Show Spoiler +
You generally don't want to try to outlane him. Garen is strongest when someone tries to be aggressive against him. The best thing to do is to try to play passively until he falls off in late game. Garen players know this, so they will be aggressive levels 1-10 His silence and judgement combination are powerful tools against really any solo top melee. Good picks against him would be anyone with a stun. Believe it or not taric works very well as a solo top vs. garen. If he tries to silence you, dazzle him. If he does manage to get damage off on you, heal it back up and farm. Riven is also a good choice. If garen ever tries to silence you, use her w, hit him once, and dash out before he can return the damage.


Ahri
+ Show Spoiler +
Ahri is an amazing laner due to her ability to constantly poke with her q. She's able to clear lanes easily due to the high true damage of her q, and she is also able to sustain due to the spell vamp on every 9 targets hit with her spells. She's very good against characters who try to put out sustained damage over time such as Cass. She's also good against any character which does the most damage up close such as kennen, karthus, leblanc, and morgana (you'll never get her to stay still long enough). The only champs I've found effective against her are champs who do enough passive DoT to keep her from healing too much. These champs are brand and fizz. Brand because he simply puts out more damage than her when he hits. Also, he has a stun to keep her from just spirit rushing away after level 6. Fizz is very good against her because of his playful/trickster. A good fizz should never take any damage from ahri because even if he's about to be hit, he can always use playful/trickster to take no damage. Most of the time fizz has a tough time killing ahri due to her ult, but when her ult is on CD, landing a fish on her is almost a death sentence. Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard. Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult.


Nasus
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyone who has good early game harass. Nasus's only weakness is that his life steal early game is not good enough to keep up with constant harass when he's trying to farm his Q. Garen is fairly good at this, but if you want someone with more team fight utility, pick riven. She's very good at keeping nasus down. When you're both at level 4, every time nasus tries to come in to farm his Q, he should loose a net quarter of his health. I also hear everyone say that irelia is very good against nasus. From my experience this is only true later in the game. Her life steal is impossible for nasus to keep in check later, but earlier in the game nasus can make her his b*tch.


Kennen
+ Show Spoiler +
Kennen has been overlooked as a solid AP carry for the longest time now. I started playing him a long time ago, and people are just now starting to realize how incredible he is. The key to laning against kennen is managing how many marks of the storm you have on you. If you have 2, be very careful because his ult will stun you and keep you in his ult for the entire duration (meaning you take all the damage if you're the only one in his ult). Ryze, sion, and ahri are good, but so are other champs who can 1. push and 2. have attacks which hit through minions.

Ryze and sion are good because they both have binds/stuns which go through minions. This is important because kennen's ult is his main source of killing burst damage. Often times what kennens will do is lightning rush into you. use a q or w, ult you, and ignite for the kill. With ryze and sion they can see this coming, and when he gets close they stun him, hit him with a some spells (sion's shield burst or ryze Q), and run away. Kennen should never be able to kill you unless he uses a flash. If you have 2 marks of the storm on you, play passively because his third mark is what stuns.

Ahri is good against him because of the fact that she can push the lane to his tower. Unless kennen levels W first, he won't be able to last hit under the tower very well with just his Q. He'll start missing cs very fast, and the gold advantage will build. Ahri's passive spell vamp will allow you to outsustain kennen easy especially if you pick up revolver--->WotA. The thing that makes ahri a complete boss against kennen is that he will never be able to kill you. If he uses his ult on you and kills you, then you are deserved to die to it. The only way he can successfully kill you is if you let him get 2 marks of the storm on you. You should be able to easily dash out of his ult before it can do serious damage with the first proc. The other 2 procs, go up to him and kill him with R+W+R+Q. Ignite if you need.


Singed
+ Show Spoiler +
I laugh when I see people complain about singed being OP. For me, a singed pick is a free win. Singed's mechanic is that he's able to push a lane very well. This comes in handy when you factor in that his DoT is very high, but he lacks in any high burst damage. Nasus is the perfect counter to singed. Singed has to be aggressive to stop you from farming your Q. He'll try to do this by throwing down smoke all over you. Just keep hitting the minions. The smoke at levels 1-3 doesn't do enough damage that you can't heal it up. If he runs it for more than a couple seconds at early levels, he completely drains his mana and can't farm. Keep farming your Q and at around level 10 one of your Qs should be enough to hit him for a quarter of his health. At this point there is nothing he can do against you. Keep farming your lane and pushing the towers until you become god.
What's that probe doing there? It's a scout. You mean one of those flying planes? No....
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
February 06 2012 09:48 GMT
#126
Pantheon is very strong VS Irelia, since she needs to hit creeps to sustain. GP as well as very good early levels but needs ignite if he wants to win a 1v1 pre 6.
WW never loses a 1v1 to Irelia at any point in the game and can bully her post 7 very hard.

But as I don't own Irelia I can't really explain exactly how they beat her >.> Friggin 6k3 champs.
The legend of Darien lives on
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
February 06 2012 12:39 GMT
#127
Doesnt malphite do well against GP?
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
February 06 2012 12:46 GMT
#128
On February 06 2012 17:38 De4ngus wrote:
i like nasus vs irelia


Nasus is very strong against irelia.
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 06 2012 14:08 GMT
#129
i dont play irelia extensively either but one of my mates mains her, so ill go over these with him :D
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Haasts
Profile Joined October 2011
New Zealand4445 Posts
February 06 2012 14:31 GMT
#130
On February 06 2012 18:42 Zerksys wrote:


Ahri
Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard.
...
Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult.


Speaking as a Ryze player, while I've certainly done OK vs Ahri mid-lategame in teamfights when I've been in another lane or I've been babysat, her ranged lane-shoving and sustain means I'm often attempting to last-hit under my tower while she gallops downriver to gank top/bot. While I'm certainly a rather shabby Ryze, I feel in the laning phase Ahri has a distinct advantage.
PaniaoftheReef in Path of Exile TotA SSF SC // Lovelin fanclub // GreenTea #1
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 21:14:40
February 06 2012 18:18 GMT
#131
Jarvan: (Top)
+ Show Spoiler +
Jarvan's top kit consists of a knockup and %armor shred. Jarvan's peaks in lane power between levels 2/3 and level 6, as the sustain of the toplaners with great sustain kicks in with force beyond this period. One example of this lane dynamic can be seen between Jarvan and Irelia; naturally, Jarvan does not possess great kill potential at level 1 due to having no knockup. However, at levels 2/3, if he has been harassing Irelia successfully, he can proceed to attempt to land a E-Q and commit if Irelia is low enough for ignite to finish her off. Beyond level 6, Jarvan will have a difficult time laning versus Irelia as her superior sustain will allow her to win in small trades, putting the pressure on Jarvan's jungler to get a successful gank or risk a freefarmed Irelia / tower down.

Jarvan has difficulty versus opponents who can negate this period of strength by dodging his skillshot combo: Riven and Lee Sin have enough mobility to do so while having enough of damage to put heavy pressure on Jarvan in turn.

Some sustain-based toplanes also fare well against Jarvan. Jarvan is unable to build enough damage onto Yorrick to go for a kill without outside assistance, as Yorrick's sustain and returned damage from E is too great for him to handle.


Karthus: (Mid / Top)
+ Show Spoiler +
Karthus is a very powerful lategame champion who also has a decent kit to reach that point in the game - with an almost 1k effective range on his Q, he is able to farm from a safe distance against most skillshot based midlaners, while being a great gank assister with his W and E, not to mention one of the best people to countergank for due to his utility and large damage and passive.

A very skilled Karthus does not outright lose many lanes, as his damage on his Q when landed is extremely high, especially on champions who exert themselves beyond their creeps to try to zone or harass him. A expert Karthus should not miss any Qs on a walled target, and thus make poking and trading difficult for the enemy.

Kassadin serves as an interesting counterpick to Karthus in that his silence prevents Karthus from outright bullying Kassadin to the point at which he can abuse blue and or his ultimate to harass Karthus will minimal fear of retribution.
While Karthus should have the advantage in early laning (may force Kassadin off of lasthits with the threat of his Q, etc.) Kassadin's high mobility and silence wreck him in lane and in teamfights.

Morgana is a safe pick against Karthus in that she has greater pushing power at most reasonable periods in the game, and Karthus has trouble committing to a Morgana due to her black shield (lack of slow on wall and/or protection against ultimate), her strength at close range due to her ultimate, and her ability to bind and run if needed.


Kassadin: (Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
Kassadin is an extremely mobile AP who can serve various roles on a teamcomp. He is usually built with AP, aiming to exert map influence with blue buff or to bully a lane opponent who cannot handle his mobility and silence with it, and serving an assassin / disrupting AP role in teamfights. His mobility allow him to bait tremendous amounts of valuable spells or attention onto himself if used correctly while providing a powerful damage scaling with mana and mana regen (his ultimate). It is thus the lack of this mobility and power that renders him impotent during levels 1-5.

Kassadin's current range on his Q (650) is short enough that there are other point and click spells that outrange it - this recent nerf has only increased the number of matchups that Kassadin loses outright in laning phase. Previously, Kassadin was able to cast his Q and turn around immediately with a movement command, making spells or autoattacks that were 625 range or shorter difficult to land as opponents. However, with his current specs, this effective range of immunity is rather negligible. Combined with his melee attack, Kassadin has difficulty lasthitting against enemy champions with powerful skillshots or autoattack harassment who can trade successfully against Kassadin's Q.

Strong counters to Kassadin include:
Virtually any AD with long range, small scale mobility, or pushing power. Of these, Caitlyn is the most prominent counter to Kassadin, as her traps combined with her autoattack make it virtually impossible for Kassadin to lasthit while having long enough of an autoattack range that it is impossible for Kassadin to land his Q onto her without retaliation. As long as Caitlyn transitions into lifesteal and does not go low enough for Kassadin to burst her, this lane is extremely one sided.

Ryze is strong against Kassadin as he is able to get his entire combo off onto Kassadin. He is even able to go for Q->W->E combos, as the travel time of Kassadin's Q is long enough that in the time it takes to reach Ryze, he is able to walk 50 range and cast W->E. The root is strong against Kassadin post 6 as well, and if played for attrition Kassadin cannot match Ryze's sustained damage.
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Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 06 2012 18:30 GMT
#132
On February 05 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:
Galio: (Top / Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
To understand what can counter Galio, we must first look at his strengths.

1. Galio’s ability to straight up trade most APs, especially those with DoT effects, is second to none when his bulwark is activated. The additional Armor / MR alone would be sufficient to make trades even or in his favor, but the heal combined with this makes him actually heal from weak DoT effects.

2. His relatively low mana costs, along with his ability to buy many mana regen items (Catalyst, Chalice, Philo Stone: try not to get Chalice and Catalyst together if possible) that are useful for him make him a very efficient clearer when he can insta-clear waves and harasser at all levels.

3. The slow / speed on his Q + E also make him a choice chaser when the enemy is low, as well as giving him the ability to peel for himself and reducing the effectiveness of skillshot users.

4. Lastly, his passive: this passive allows Galio to build MR / items such as chalice while gaining damage at the same time, increasing the effectiveness of such builds while drastically reducing AP damage even further.

These factors combined make Galio a monster laning versus most APs. Even basic AD champions can have trouble to Galio due to his incidental harass being more powerful than their autoattacks. However, there are a few picks that either beat his strengths in efficiency or completely counter his kit.

Udyr's Tiger Stance has a strange interaction with Galio: Galio’s bulwark should be great against its DoT, and it is magic damage as well. However, with his stun and the ability to bait bulwarks by simply walking near Galio and walking away again, Udyr can comfortably use his tiger to harass or to bait mana usage from Galio. Should he use it with Galio, he will come out ahead in terms of mana used as well.

Galio’s incidental harass with Q+E in clearing is less effective versus Udyr due to Udyr’s turtle, which, again, is even more mana efficient than Galio’s combo while giving him mana / HP on every hit.

Galio’s ability to push is also negated by turtle. Should Galio begin to push on Udyr, Udyr can stagnate the lane by simply tanking creeps with turtle stance until the creepwaves meet outside of his tower, and be in a safe position to farm while zoning Galio from creeps with tiger / bear.

I recommend taking teleport as Udyr if you are vs. Galio, as a Galio with teleport may simply decide to back and walk to dragon if you are tanking creeps, which you can respond to with a teleport of your own kind if necessary, or you may just push to the tower if there is no need for a teleport – give yourself the option, as one won teamfight may change the pace of the game. You do not need ignite to heavily damage Galio either.

Udyr counters Galio in lane for dealing with Galio’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strengths (ability to bait bulwarks and punish when it is down with tiger, 1., beating him in mana efficiency, 2., and negating the slow / speed of Galio’s Q/E with stuns / bear as needed (again going back to mana efficiency as well), 3.). However, Galio still makes good use of his passive in this lane.

In looking at another type of counter to Galio, we see a type of hero that can not only punish Galio in 1., 2., and 3., but also reduce Galio’s usage of 4 such that his teamfighting presence is much weaker.

Garen and Lee Sin both have no mana, making 2. essentially a null point. Their instant application of damage (Garen is able to cancel his spin if Galio activates bulwark and he decides it is not worth using any longer) and kits (Garen’s silence and Lee Sin’s mobility / better slow) make it such that Galio’s slow and speed are difficult to use to avoid these due to mana constraint while making bulwark also less effective, as Garen and Lee do not have to commit greatly in exchanges, and have no mana constraints. Thus, 1., 2., and 3. are not of particular worth to Galio in these matchups.

In these matchups, Galio has 2 options. 1, he can build armor and barely survive / farm inefficiently in lane (with timely bulwark usage versus Garen, especially if Garen decides to flash Q when Galio is low and he is level 6, he can survive) or 2. he can die or get zoned (Garen and Lee’s kits are good for this in that they have a form of melee CC that they can use to prevent Galio from lasthitting from level 1 onwards). In foregoing MR to barely survive in lane (even with teleports to return to lane), Galio loses the great efficiency of his passive along with his effective immunity to magic at early fights.


Gangplank: (Top / Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
Gangplank is a versatile toplane in that he has a combination of ranged harass with his Q, a very effective slow, movespeed etc. steroid, and heal in lane. He is fine with farming at tower because he is able to exert pressure around the map with his ultimate, so most stalemate-ing lanes are favorable for him.

The biggest difference in his kit from most toplane bruisers is his ranged harassment capabilities.

The bruisers with an ability to negate or match, or do both, against GP tend to come out favorably against the plank.

Riven is sufficiently stronger midgame that if GP does not get a large advantage in lane, the lane is favorable for her. However, she can straight up win exchanges versus GP when she hits level 3 and has all of her skills. The most difficult period of time against GP is levels 1 (and after the w nerf, level 2) as she is unable to exchange harass efficiently and indeed can die to GP’s passive if she is not careful.

To remedy this, Riven can open E at level 1 and then continue with a normal skill order. With enough practice or reaction time, it is simple to E the majority of GP’s Q harassment. At level 1, your E will entirely shield the damage it deals with armor runes – making passive farming possible. After Riven hits level 3, she has the mobility to reach GP and to disengage as needed: her abilities will win on pure damage if GP is not allowed to amass passive stacks. Essentially, after being stunned, GP has two options: 1. Eat oranges and trade even damage but lose a lot of mana, or 2. Lose the trade. From here on out, if Riven does not die to a gank, she should have very little to no problem dealing with GP as long as she uses her shield to block damage.

Udyr: GP simply does no damage through Udyr’s turtle stance. Unlike Riven’s E which has a very short duration shield, Udyr’s turtle stance lasts for much longer. The passive HP / Mana regained per hit makes it such that if GP ever attempts to commit to an exchange, you can open with turtle whenever he sends a Q at your way, and then follow with tiger and pound on him and one-sidedly win the exchange. GP does not have a lot of options in this matchup, except for to ask for an early gank. Otherwise, an early death / teleport / tower down is almost inevitable. GP simply cannot trade, and against an Udyr who positions himself to damage you whenever you come near the creeps, you will find yourself zoned.

If you are playing as Udyr, note two things: open boots, as there is no need to open cloth to win exchanges with armor yellows; and you do not need to turn on tiger to deal damage when zoning GP, as you may run yourself OOM doing so.

Notable mention:
Pantheon: If GP does not run a full armor setup, Pantheon can dominate this matchup. Even if he does, Pantheon noticeably has the lead in early levels – however, against a passive GP who opens cloth5pot and maxes W, Pantheon must overextend himself to keep pressure on GP from lasthitting properly, which is death against any coordinated jungler gank. However, against armor-less GPs who underestimate Pantheon’s strength, this is a notable counter, as like the other two, Pantheon’s passive largely negates the effectiveness of GP’s ranged harass, and can force favorable trades early on.


Gragas: (Top / Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.

Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.

Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.

In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.

AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.

While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.

Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (short range blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.


i skip fizz cuz i dont like fish



an addition to the gragas list: kassadin
Gragas: (Top / Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +
As a melee with extremely long ranged poke and high mobility and damage at melee range, Gragas has a strange kit that makes for very strange matchups. His W steroid along with his passive give him innate sustain that has noticeable effect, but is not enough to negate autoattack harass entirely. If he can land his barrels reliably, he can usually exert lane control stronger than most APs; however, if he cannot, he may have to farm from a range against aggressive enemies.

Cassiopeia can straight up out-trade Gragas, as she will out-trade him in all but the most extreme scenarios (Gragas lands his Q and she does not, for instance). Her smooth ranged attack adds extra damage that accumulates as well.

Vlad has the range advantage and a very simple point and click nuke that heals himself, making it difficult for Gragas to build up the harass for a kill combo; in addition, if Gragas ever commits, Vlad always has the option to pool as needed. Indeed, it is the latter (along with Vlad’s increasingly powerful sustain as the game progresses) that makes him a fine counterpick to Gragas.

Kassadin is a melee like Gragas who generally is bullied harder than Gragas, as he has less innate sustain and less efficient wave clearing / lasthitting spells. However, against his fellow melee, Kassadin is allowed to lasthit with ease, and utilize the mana gain portion of his W more efficiently if he opts to do so for sustained laning trades. Gragas is unable to pressure Kassadin efficiently, as if Gragas goes for a midrange barrel, Kassadin can simply cast his silence, which will prevent Gragas from exploding it. If Gragas goes for a long ranged barrel, a decent player should be able to avoid it. If Gragas attempts to body slam Kassadin, Kassadin can once again simply Q Gragas and prevent him from following up with a barrel, making for an inefficient trade for Gragas (especially if Kassadin uses creeps to mitigate some of the effect of his body slam).
Kassadin also has the advantage of being able to ult away from Gragas' ultimate, making it difficult for Gragas to lock Kassadin down. With blue buff post 6, Kassadin is able to put constant pressure and damage onto Gragas with little threat of retaliation without a successful jungler gank as well, making it difficult for Gragas to simply clear the wave and exert pressure elsewhere.

In Top lane, Gragas has trouble against bruisers who have good sustain, as his sustain is mediocre at best in comparison to some sustain skills (Irelia’s W, WW’s passive and Q, Tryndamere, etc.) while many bruisers also have the mobility to either dodge or counterattack Gragas with ease. Tryndamere, Irelia, and Riven are three examples of very hard scaling top-lane champions that would be able to freefarm and harass Gragas as they pleased in this matchup.

AD carries with fast blinks or small scale movement (Corki, Vayne, Ezreal) are good against Gragas in that they can dodge his kill combos (and with Vayne in particular, counter any harass attempts by using her Q to dodge E/Qs and harass in turn without hurting for mana) and have strong autoattacks to punish any melee lasthits he attempts.

While the list of APs that can harass and trade with Gragas pre-6 is quite long, once Gragas hits 6, almost all matchups should change drastically. In addition to the fact that by this time, Gragas should receive blue or back and buy some DRings (or both), his poke damage and frequency (due to the available mana) and his kill potential (with the ultimate as initiation) is incredibly high. For example, if Cassiopeia ever falls below 50% HP, with an ultimate that brings her into body slam range, Gragas can effectively 1 shot her, whereas Cassiopeia’s ult threat range is much shorter. Matchups that were entirely lost or difficult can change completely, so this is worth taking into consideration.

Also, against those who have the mobility to dodge or negate the effectiveness of his ultimate (blinks, invulnerabilities such as Fizz E or Vlad pool, Morgana’s black shield or Galio’s bulwark and Mres in general), if he so desires, Gragas can simply instantly clear waves with 1 or 2 Q’s and Es as needed. Gragas has range only matched by Xerath for these types of clears, so any “hard counter” lanes may lose their effectiveness after a certain point; he has great mobility and can gank after a fast lane clear.
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Zerksys
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 04:51:43
February 07 2012 04:49 GMT
#133
On February 06 2012 23:31 Haasts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2012 18:42 Zerksys wrote:


Ahri
Last but not least, both brand and fizz can last hit under towers pretty well. This is central since she pushes so hard.
...
Ryze is also a good choice vs. ahri becuase of his bind. She can't run away from ryze's bind with her ult.


Speaking as a Ryze player, while I've certainly done OK vs Ahri mid-lategame in teamfights when I've been in another lane or I've been babysat, her ranged lane-shoving and sustain means I'm often attempting to last-hit under my tower while she gallops downriver to gank top/bot. While I'm certainly a rather shabby Ryze, I feel in the laning phase Ahri has a distinct advantage.


The thing is that if she shoves the lane up into your tower she wastes a ton of mana early game. As ryze you can outlast her. The best part comes when you jungler comes to gank. The instant she gets cced she's dead if you're a good ryze.
What's that probe doing there? It's a scout. You mean one of those flying planes? No....
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
February 07 2012 06:42 GMT
#134
Singed - Top


+ Show Spoiler +
Counter by Vayne's true Damage, Q and E to kite or chase, Vayne can freely freeze the lane and keep singed from getting any cs without taking a big risk, pre-6 you can completely zone him to his own tower even out of xp range, post-6 if singed so much as goes pass half way point on river he's in real danger to die 100-0 from R+Q chase with silver bolt procs, you might need to take a tower hit or two during the dive but you will get the kill and should escape with enough health to fight off most junglers coming to assist.
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 14:42:06
February 10 2012 14:38 GMT
#135
In a solo lane, is there anything that counters caitlyn or lux in lane? Lux just fires bindings till she hits, and if she doesn't runs away till her cd is back. It's hard to trade evenly with cait bcuz of her range.

I guess this isn't really a counterpick since you never know when a cait is gonna solo.

I mean I didn't really lose lane.. cait got ganked and died a few times :p, lux never really got kills, I just couldn't trade them effectively.
Xedat
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany358 Posts
February 10 2012 15:56 GMT
#136
I think with caith its like with garen, every other ad carry will be more useful later, so if you you farm evenly and don't die you come out ahead. From what I have gathered caith is supposed to counter all other ad carries in lane and falls off later.
Xedat
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany358 Posts
February 10 2012 15:59 GMT
#137
On February 07 2012 15:42 NotSorry wrote:
Singed - Top


+ Show Spoiler +
Counter by Vayne's true Damage, Q and E to kite or chase, Vayne can freely freeze the lane and keep singed from getting any cs without taking a big risk, pre-6 you can completely zone him to his own tower even out of xp range, post-6 if singed so much as goes pass half way point on river he's in real danger to die 100-0 from R+Q chase with silver bolt procs, you might need to take a tower hit or two during the dive but you will get the kill and should escape with enough health to fight off most junglers coming to assist.


I am not quite sure, but I think we try to stick to the current meta for counters,

Singed - Top


+ Show Spoiler +
Galio counters him, he heals of singed´s poison with his shield and he has a strong slow nuke as well as a speedup himself, while also dishing out enough AoE damage to counter singed´s pushing.
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 10 2012 18:21 GMT
#138
On February 10 2012 23:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
In a solo lane, is there anything that counters caitlyn or lux in lane? Lux just fires bindings till she hits, and if she doesn't runs away till her cd is back. It's hard to trade evenly with cait bcuz of her range.

I guess this isn't really a counterpick since you never know when a cait is gonna solo.

I mean I didn't really lose lane.. cait got ganked and died a few times :p, lux never really got kills, I just couldn't trade them effectively.


GP is strong against lux in a solo lane
Lux has difficulty locking down GP or setting him up to ganks due to his oranges. It is also difficult or impossible to rune for enough mana regen AND armor to trade with GP's relatively low mana and highly efficient parley with lux's typical caster level mana consumption and low base armor. if GP opens regrowth and runes with MR, he should have no way to lose that lane (assuming solo)

cait has no clear counter in a duo lane, but a lot of AD's don't mind trading farm with her. For right now, sivir has a relatively smooth laning phase vs. her with most strong supports - hardly a counter, though
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O-ops
Profile Joined February 2009
United States4236 Posts
February 10 2012 18:40 GMT
#139
Add Rumble to the Akali counters section. That match is so free ;(
Fan of the Jangbanger
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
February 10 2012 21:21 GMT
#140
Kennen: (Mid / Top)
+ Show Spoiler +
Kennen has relatively few hard counters, as his long range autoattack, harassment and poke with Q, mobility with E, and CC combined with his passive and energy resource bar make him a very well rounded and powerful laner. With WotA or revolver, his sustain also becomes extremely potent: his only real weakness in laning is his pushing ability and relatively weak engagement power at levels 1 and 2.

Cassiopeia simply outdoes Kennen in most aspects - harassment wise, with good creep usage, she has more effective harassment range: with her E, she has greater damage in trades and when both parties commit: and with both ultimates, if she lands her stun, she has longer CC and more up front damage than Kennen.

The APs who can stalemate or shrug off Kennen's harassment and simply outpush him beyond a certain point have advantages over Kennen in that they have more time to put influence on the rest of the map, as Kennen is a very inefficient pusher in both energy cost and time. Morgana is particularly safe pre 6, as she has decent pushing at low levels, a safe way to prevent getting stunned, and a strong CC should Kennen attempt to go overly aggressive. She and other similarly stable APs with pushing power are generally safe picks against Kennen.

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