|
Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out.
Yeah except arp is better in that situation because arp will let you do more damage unless you have abilities with a very high AD ratio and very low base damage. Arp also better against that stupid taric aura.
|
On December 08 2011 04:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play. Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty.
It really isn't as shitty as it looks. The late-game difference (post-LW) is small at best, and only on squishier targets. On more well-armored targets, all flat AD wins over both rune setups involving armor pen.
Besides, if you're going under the philosophy that "Items are for late game, runes help you get there" then you should choose the rune setup according to that. If you're going to play passively in lane, go with the all AD setup, so you can take last hits at times that help you avoid harassment, and CS under your turret more effectively. If you're going to be aggressive in lane, go with a more armor-pen setup. Somewhere in the middle/unsure, go with AD quints and arpen marks?
Level 18 Caitlyn with LW, IE, and 1 doran. I'm not calculating crit and aspd (and thus ignoring PD) because they're flat multipliers, and while they will WIDEN any DPS gap that may already exist, they won't create it by themselves, because they don't affect damage per hit, which armor pen and flat AD do.
Base AD from being caitlyn + items: 101+75+40+10+3 = 229
Total AD for armor pen marks + quints: 229, 31 armor pen
Total AD for armor pen marks + AD quints: 236, 21 armor pen
Total AD for AD marks+ quints: 247, 6 armor pen
picking 106 and 206 so it's easier to calculate for sunder because armor numbers will be left on 5/0's.
All Flat AD:
106 armor target w/ last whisper (like the enemy AP carry after he has a zhonya's.)
100 armor -40 (LW) -6 (10% mastery) = 54 armor: damage multiplier of 0.649
247*0.649 = 160.3
206 armor target
= 108 armor - damage multiplier of 0.481
247*0.481 = 118.8
All Armor Pen:
106 armor - 31 = 75 armor. Post LW = 40.5 armor = 0.712 damage multiplier
229*.712 = 163.0 3 Damage improvement over all flat AD
206 armor -31 = 175 armor. Post LW = 94.5 armor = 0.514 damage multiplier
229*0.514 = 117.7 : 1 damage decrease over flat AD
AD Quints, ArPen Marks
106 armor - 21 = 85 armor. Post-LW = 45.9 armor = 0.685 damage multiplier
236 * 0.685 = 161.6 2 damage less than all armor pen
206 armor -21 = 185 armor. Post-LW = 99.9 armor = 0.500 damage multiplier
236 * 0.500 = 2 = 118 about the same as all armor pen
|
On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out.
If I remember correctly, flat AD is only better than APen at lvl 1 up to MAYBE 3. And the difference if pretty damn small. That's hardly going to net you a kill in a situation where APen wouldn't have been enough.
|
On December 08 2011 06:35 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out. Yeah except arp is better in that situation because arp will let you do more damage unless you have abilities with a very high AD ratio and very low base damage. Arp also better against that stupid taric aura.
Arpen should always do more damage unless you have more apren than they have armor. Unless they're running base this will likely occur at level 1 and even then it'll happen while you're laning. The only time your ability wouldn't prosper more from arpen than ad is if it's a ad scaling magic damage ability like tiger dot on Udyr Q. Cause ad marks are that shitty ^_^
On December 08 2011 06:40 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out. If I remember correctly, flat AD is only better than APen at lvl 1 up to MAYBE 3. And the difference if pretty damn small. That's hardly going to net you a kill in a situation where APen wouldn't have been enough.
It's based entirely on how much armor they have. Level doesn't matter except for he fact that every champion in the game gets armor on levelup.
|
So with Jarvan, who will take the 10% Arpen and with his Q reducing armor by 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26 %; its definitely better to go flat AD in both reds and quints right? Ok not definitely but better than on most other champions?
Also, does the reduction from Q already apply on the Q hit or only on following damage?
|
So unfortunately jungle morde is not viable post patch atm. The whole shield nerfs hurt him quite badly, and he REALLY struggles to jungle pre level 5. Its great once you get wota, but even that is way slower than when you can get it on fidds or rumble, not to mention the fact that you have 0 gank presence. The one upside is that you can cover any lane because you still have that immovable object thing going once you have some levels in your shield, even when down 1-2 levels to an enemy solo.
|
On December 08 2011 06:33 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 05:58 JackDino wrote:On December 08 2011 05:56 starfries wrote:
play Soraka and attempt to steal as many cs as you can from your carry. it's like dota where people can deny you. Much easier than doing da fiddle. I'd say Fiddle and WW are the 2 champs with the worst auto attack I know. I'm usually 20cs behind with WW compared to what I achieve with GP/Udyr/Cho... Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out. So it's not all-in.
It's like pulling half your scv's but you still have the mule.
|
Ugh, don't make me run numbers for Pre-LW midgame (like... 2 dorans and a BF sword) too. Flat AD marks look a lot worse than they actually are.
And I'm pretty sure that "all-in" would be running 31 armor pen or something on your carry. Assuming they picked armor seals, you've got true damage autos until level 6 or so.
|
Why did they change wws animations why? He looks retarded now
|
On December 08 2011 06:45 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:33 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 08 2011 05:58 JackDino wrote:On December 08 2011 05:56 starfries wrote:
play Soraka and attempt to steal as many cs as you can from your carry. it's like dota where people can deny you. Much easier than doing da fiddle. I'd say Fiddle and WW are the 2 champs with the worst auto attack I know. I'm usually 20cs behind with WW compared to what I achieve with GP/Udyr/Cho... On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out. So it's not all-in. It's like pulling half your scv's but you still have the mule.
It's more like trying to build a spine on your opponen't creep with your scout. It's not all-in at all, it's just an attempt at getting an advantage early that will set you a little behind if it fails...
|
On December 08 2011 06:45 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:33 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 08 2011 05:58 JackDino wrote:On December 08 2011 05:56 starfries wrote:
play Soraka and attempt to steal as many cs as you can from your carry. it's like dota where people can deny you. Much easier than doing da fiddle. I'd say Fiddle and WW are the 2 champs with the worst auto attack I know. I'm usually 20cs behind with WW compared to what I achieve with GP/Udyr/Cho... On December 08 2011 06:31 broz0rs wrote:
I think a decent justification of going all balls out AD is to get a better shot at picking up a kill at pre-lv. 6 and hopefully leading to a snowball. Considering the amount of games that end at 20 mins it's not that terrible of a choice. It's similar to an all-in build, but you won't necessarily do poorly if it doesn't work out. So it's not all-in. It's like pulling half your scv's but you still have the mule.
An "early timing attack" if you will.
|
On December 08 2011 06:43 -Kato- wrote:
So with Jarvan, who will take the 10% Arpen and with his Q reducing armor by 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26 %; its definitely better to go flat AD in both reds and quints right? Ok not definitely but better than on most other champions?
Also, does the reduction from Q already apply on the Q hit or only on following damage?
I thought I saw somewhere it applies for Q hit but I could be wrong.
Edit: I couldn't find where I read this... could be confusing it with some other ability. Not sure!
|
@sylverfyre
So in the most ideal situation for ad marks+quints you're only doing one or two damage more than arpen which is less than one percent of a damage increase? Yes, that gap widens slightly when you factor in crit and things, but if you don't realize how tiny a window that you're making for them being better I have no idea how I'd convince you.
|
With jarvan being most likely top and most top laners stacking armour youre better off using arp over ad.
|
Hmmm. So apparently the problem with trying Riven in normals during free week is that you likely as not will end up facing another Riven.
|
On December 08 2011 06:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
@sylverfyre
So in the most ideal situation for ad marks+quints you're only doing one or two damage more than arpen which is less than one percent of a damage increase? Yes, that gap widens slightly when you factor in crit and things, but if you don't realize how tiny a window that you're making for them being better I have no idea how I'd convince you.
Well, the reason I'm going to open with AD marks isn't that my late game damage is better (otherwise I'd be picking scaling AD marks)
It's that my early game CSing ability is better. If it impacts CHAOX AND DOUBLELIFT's ability to CS enough that they'll pick them, and they're way the fuck better about not missing CS than I will ever be, then you can bet it makes my CS score increase significantly.
The late-game aspect is just that post-LW it ends up evening out, so it didn't matter which one you pick early game. AD marks/quints is focusing more on econ and planning to play more passively, Armor pen (marks or both marks+quints) is focusing more on aggression and harass.
Only time I'd go arpen quints on a carry is if sona/taric is on the other team. Those armor buffs will cause the 31 armor pen to not bottom out.
|
Is it true there's a riven glitch/bug that allows her to do double damage?
|
Yeah it's called building lots of AD and pressing R and using passive.
|
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On December 08 2011 06:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
So unfortunately jungle morde is not viable post patch atm.
I think the next patch will be interesting then huehuehue.
Other things I have heard include projectile speed increases on Lux, Volibear nurfguns pewpewpew, and some love for our favourite global ult champion. Also Loci, your favourite AP Champion is also getting a look at. Trynd and Riven are considered border-line OP but no action afaik.
EDIT: Took out uninteresting stuff.
|
On December 08 2011 07:20 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah it's called building lots of AD and pressing R and using passive.
W/ passive and ult up she has something like 1.8 AD scaling autos. Close enough lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
