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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 08 2011 04:08 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:05 sylverfyre wrote:On December 08 2011 03:59 barbsq wrote:On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) idk, i was under the impression you do apen marks, ad quints. Also, i dont think you can say that Apen doesn't help with last hitting, because minions have armor too, so if you have AD quints and AD marks, then the only apen you're getting is from masteries, which would be 6 flat and 10%, which may/may not actually be more than minion armor (kus i'm too lazy to check) but if it doesn't add up to more than minion armor, then you are getting added damage from it. If some1 wants to check, then you can see whether or not AD or APen marks are better vs minions, but i dont think you can just assume that AD will help last hitting signiticantly more (tho it probably will). in any case, i am also pretty certain that apen marks will help a lot vs champions, and if you have AD quints, i think that's a huge window for last hitting, and don't really see how having flat AD marks would really help as much. edit: On December 08 2011 03:58 Mogwai wrote:
just go pantheon and punch him in the face with your spear! i'm actually getting tired of support, i think i need to get back to my pantheon/urgod roots i think the most depressing thing is when i play with my bad friends, we only seem to win if i'm playing support, lol It takes quite a while before minions have more than 6 armor. yeah, i ended up looking it up anyways, they spawn with 0 and gain +2 every 3 mins, so it takes 9 minutes to reach 6 armor, so yeah, AD does help a ton more than apen XD lack of research ftl. Still tho, i think the choice of AD or APen marks ends up being which deals more dmg to champions, and that one i'm fairly confident apen ends up the better. edit: alternatively, another way you can slice the pie is setting up your shit so that you last hit minions with 1 hit under tower. Tbh, that actually might end up being more helpful than anything else you could do with dmg runes.
Yeah, between the flat AD from marks/quints, your base AD, and executioner, you can last hit caster minions after 1 tower shot waaaaay sooner than normally, and that's the point where you can really last hit like a pro under your tower (it's very hard to do the 1 auto, tower shot, 1 auto, because if they take like ANY incidental damage from another minion the tower shot often kills them.)
So, at the 4:40 mark, to one-shot a caster minion that has taken 1 turret shot, with 21/whatever masteries:
295 HP - (186 - Turret damage = 109 damage required.)
Which is 101 damage from AD, +6% from executioner, +1.5% from havoc
On Level 5 Tristana Caitlyn, Ezreal, MF. Vayne and Graves have ~4-5 more damage. Ashe has 1 less. Kog can cheat and press w, but otherwise also has 1 less. Corki has way more damage because of his passive.)
47 (base) + 15 (levels) +16 (runes) +3 (masteries) = 81
2 dorans blades brings that to 101. Havoc and executioner bring that to 107, 109 (.5 rounds up.) It's suuuuper borderline, but I believe at this point you can last-hit under your tower at level 5, once the tower gets that tick of AD at 5:40. 4:40 it won't happen yet. Vayne, Graves, and Corki can do it without being so borderline. If you can't yet do it at 5:40, you can defintely do it at level 6 and/or 1 minute later at 6:40. Minion health jumps a little by 7:30 but hopefully you have more levels/damage yourself by then.
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On December 08 2011 04:14 barbsq wrote:
how does 10% apen mastery stack with LW? just for reference
multiplicatively. together they give 46% pen.
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Multiplicatively, you get 46% armourpen.
E: Ninja'd, haha.
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You get 46% penetration, multiplicatively, together.
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Yo I don't know why but I have a hunch it's 46% multiplicatively.
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Together, you get, multiplicatively 46% pen
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United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment)
Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play.
Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty.
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On December 08 2011 00:38 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 00:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 08 2011 00:04 Unentschieden wrote:
Crit gives a certain uncertainty to a "rightclickers" exact damageoutput, like the possibility of missing skillshots gives to "casters". That keeps duels from being mathproblems.
There is a certain value in keeping champions from taking 4% crit at level1 but in turn masteries should also have options to boost critreliant champs. Except there isn't a crit reliant champion besides Tryn and he's just fundamentally broken basically ^_^ All "AD Carrys" get crit to maximise their sustained damage output. Drop IE and PD from the itemlist and itemisation looks quite bleak.
If you read the previous pages we aren't just removing crit and saying fuck you to everybody in the game. They'd be compensated with the equivalent of ad which isn't even that hard to pull off. I brought up tryn because he gets cd reduction from critical strike specifically as well as additional rage on crits. Removing the mechanic entirely would require him to be redesigned.
On December 08 2011 04:10 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) the 10% ArPen mastery essentially devalues ArPen Marks to 13.5 ArPen from 15 ArPen. I haven't really run the numbers past that, but that's the core of what 10% ArPen did to the value of ArPen Marks.
Keep in mind percentage penetration is calculated after flat penetration. If you're running arpen marks and the mastery then you have 21 apren so if they have 21 or less armor they're reduced to 0 armor. Anything more than that you reduce 10% of the difference so at 22 armor your mastery is essentially worthless since it's reducing armor by .1 ^_^
Yango did the math on this very recently and arpen are slightly better damage wise since they scale multiplicitively instead of additively like ad does. Essentially the flat arpen you gain works on all the ad you ever acquire while the flat ad is just a small static increase making the arpen scale better. Would dig through GD for the posts, but I'm not sure I'd be able to find them  The difference isn't so great that it doesn't come down to preference though. I personally think taking the slight damage hit from running a full flat page is worth it to make last hitting under tower easier.
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On December 08 2011 04:15 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:14 barbsq wrote:
how does 10% apen mastery stack with LW? just for reference multiplicatively. together they give 46% pen.
On December 08 2011 04:20 dismiss wrote:
Multiplicatively, you get 46% armourpen.
E: Ninja'd, haha.
On December 08 2011 04:20 Slayer91 wrote:
You get 46% penetration, multiplicatively, together.
On December 08 2011 04:24 Lanzoma wrote:
Yo I don't know why but I have a hunch it's 46% multiplicatively.
On December 08 2011 04:24 Requizen wrote:
Together, you get, multiplicatively 46% pen
LoL 
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On December 08 2011 04:30 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:15 Mogwai wrote:On December 08 2011 04:14 barbsq wrote:
how does 10% apen mastery stack with LW? just for reference multiplicatively. together they give 46% pen. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:20 dismiss wrote:
Multiplicatively, you get 46% armourpen.
E: Ninja'd, haha. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:20 Slayer91 wrote:
You get 46% penetration, multiplicatively, together. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:24 Lanzoma wrote:
Yo I don't know why but I have a hunch it's 46% multiplicatively. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:24 Requizen wrote:
Together, you get, multiplicatively 46% pen LoL
it's kus i'm loved :D
i'm just a big teddy bear
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On December 08 2011 04:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play. Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty.
i wonder how many times this has been said in the history of the lol thread/subforum
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On December 08 2011 04:45 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:26 TheYango wrote:On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play. Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty. i wonder how many times this has been said in the history of the lol thread/subforum
Arpen gets better the higher the targets armour is while flat ad is better @ lower lvls of armour and crit isn't any good unless you have like 90% crit. No one ever gets aspeed. That's what I learned here today.
Having 15arp or 7 dmg doesn't really matter when you run around with a LW and 2 BTs or whatever you like. Having ad lets you cs more easily in lane to get there, having arp lets you harass harder to get there, whichever you prefer it doesn't really matter what you rune.
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On December 08 2011 04:45 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:26 TheYango wrote:On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play. Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty. i wonder how many times this has been said in the history of the lol thread/subforum
Now people can read it every day and get it into their brain
actually it's funny because every time somebody says that they mention Chaox said it. Somebody should inform Chaox that he is wrong and that he needs to make another public statement admitting it.
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On December 08 2011 04:47 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:45 barbsq wrote:On December 08 2011 04:26 TheYango wrote:On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) Do out the math. ArPen is a higher DPS increase than flat AD marks at reasonable AD/enemy armor values, even with LW in play. Yes ArPen gets worse vs. higher armor targets. Yes LW/ArPen mastery make flat ArPen worse. But the cost-effectiveness of flat AD marks is just THAT shitty. i wonder how many times this has been said in the history of the lol thread/subforum Arpen gets better the higher the targets armour is while flat ad is better @ lower lvls of armour and crit isn't any good unless you have like 90% crit. No one ever gets aspeed. That's what I learned here today. Having 15arp or 7 dmg doesn't really matter when you run around with a LW and 2 BTs or whatever you like. Having ad lets you cs more easily in lane to get there, having arp lets you harass harder to get there, whichever you prefer it doesn't really matter what you rune.
As runes are for junglers mostly, and yeah after items runes are shit, Its really all about the early game with runes and masteries and all math aside I don't think there is a "optimal" setup for every player, just run whatever you feel best with, just don't forget to change it up and try new things sometimes. Also I think with quints ad wuints are a lot more effective than arpen quints so a combination of arpen marks and ad quints might also be a thing to think about.
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if you're struggling to lasthit even with ad quints and the flat ad mastery, then i'm sorry but there are things you need to optimize other than your runes l0l
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On December 08 2011 04:55 Navi wrote:
if you're struggling to lasthit even with ad quints and the flat ad mastery, then i'm sorry but there are things you need to optimize other than your runes l0l
21 offensive with minion damage right?
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there's minion damage, but there's also flat AD in first tier offense
either way if you're struggling with those + executioner... yeah.
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if you're struggling with last hitting just play anivia and try to last hit all the creeps with out using ur spells. Then play with ezreal and ad marks and quints with 21 offense and you're going to last hit everything.
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On December 08 2011 05:08 Sabin010 wrote:
if you're struggling with last hitting just play anivia and try to last hit all the creeps with out using ur spells. Then play with ezreal and ad marks and quints with 21 offense and you're going to last hit everything.
No,if you want to learn how to last hit,play Zilean.That attack animation and damage is terror for last hitting at lower lvls hahah.
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But being able to last-hit at towers without applying an extra hit per minion for a certain timeframe was a pretty genuine benefit of AD marks, though that's situational, but it's a factor when optimizing for specific champion.
I don't know with the new masteries whether this is still relevant to the same extent.
Not saying you can't just do the "hit minion 1 extra time", or having your support weaken the minions blah blah, but you're wasting autoattacks that opens you up to potential harass under the tower.
Also, whether you start with boots or dblade also makes a difference in which runeset is better.
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EPT
