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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
Well I've never been sure when starting with brawler's gloves was a good idea, but its another option besides zeal or avarice blade. I could see why you would get zeal if you're going for a triforce, but personally I think sheen or phage are better parts to get first. If you want gold per 10 then philosopher's stone or the rare case you're going to want randuins build into better items imo. I haven't tried it, but it just seems like it would give you some early sustain and stay with the whole critplank philosophy.
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On December 08 2011 00:47 Sabin010 wrote:
Well I've never been sure when starting with brawler's gloves was a good idea, but its another option besides zeal or avarice blade. I could see why you would get zeal if you're going for a triforce, but personally I think sheen or phage are better parts to get first. If you want gold per 10 then philosopher's stone or the rare case you're going to want randuins build into better items imo. I haven't tried it, but it just seems like it would give you some early sustain and stay with the whole critplank philosophy.
I like the idea, it's just one of those items I never noticed lol.
Edit: Thanks for dropping the knowledge Seuss.
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On December 08 2011 00:39 mordek wrote:
I've never been sure when getting an EC was a good idea. Never seen it used either.
Almost never. If you're playing ranked/draft normals your team should be capable of having the necessary number of ignites to shut down enemy healing, so if you need Executioner's Calling you failed Champion Select. It basically exists so you aren't completely screwed in blind pick when the enemy team is Soraka+Sona+Nidalee+Fiddle+Mundo.
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In fact Executioner's has a place even in games where you didn't mess up in champ select.
Under the following circumstances Executioner's Calling can be a good buy:
1) You have an Infinity Edge.
2) The winner of the game is most likely decided before you can shop again.
3) You want Lifesteal or already have a Vampiric Scepter.
4) You can't afford Zeal + Vampiric Scepter.
You might want to consider elixiers too, Red + Green + Exec can outclass Zeal + Vamp or Zeal + Red + Green.
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... much more to the point, going EC vs. Trynd, Nid, WW, Irelia as GP is quite strong as it's an 8 second healing debuff on a 20 second CD. spamming the active gives you 40% uptime on your healing debuff which can really screw over high sustain laners. also, assuming you use both crit and lifesteal (and boy does GP ever!) it's very stat efficient, even discounting the unique portions of it.
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On December 08 2011 00:38 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 00:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 08 2011 00:04 Unentschieden wrote:
Crit gives a certain uncertainty to a "rightclickers" exact damageoutput, like the possibility of missing skillshots gives to "casters". That keeps duels from being mathproblems.
There is a certain value in keeping champions from taking 4% crit at level1 but in turn masteries should also have options to boost critreliant champs. Except there isn't a crit reliant champion besides Tryn and he's just fundamentally broken basically ^_^ All "AD Carrys" get crit to maximise their sustained damage output. Drop IE and PD from the itemlist and itemisation looks quite bleak.
But Trynd basically crits on every auto late game.
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ad carries basically crit on every auto late game aswell.
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On December 08 2011 01:18 spinesheath wrote:
In fact Executioner's has a place even in games where you didn't mess up in champ select.
Under the following circumstances Executioner's Calling can be a good buy:
1) You have an Infinity Edge.
2) The winner of the game is most likely decided before you can shop again.
3) You want Lifesteal or already have a Vampiric Scepter.
4) You can't afford Zeal + Vampiric Scepter.
You might want to consider elixiers too, Red + Green + Exec can outclass Zeal + Vamp or Zeal + Red + Green.
I would actually love to see this item get more attention. I completely forgot it existed :3
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when do u get your "rating" in ranked, so far 2-2 solo mid AP seems to be my best (xerath/cass)
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On December 08 2011 03:16 br0fivE wrote:
when do u get your "rating" in ranked, so far 2-2 solo mid AP seems to be my best (xerath/cass)
After 10 games I believe
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You should already see it if you hover your summoner's name, in custom games for or in a chat channel for example.
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On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills
What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment)
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On December 08 2011 01:24 Mogwai wrote:
... much more to the point, going EC vs. Trynd, Nid, WW, Irelia as GP is quite strong as it's an 8 second healing debuff on a 20 second CD. spamming the active gives you 40% uptime on your healing debuff which can really screw over high sustain laners. also, assuming you use both crit and lifesteal (and boy does GP ever!) it's very stat efficient, even discounting the unique portions of it.
i'm going to start getting EC vs ww top regardless of whether i need the stats or not, lol. I hate him sooo much, he is 100% my most hated matchup with nearly all top lane champs.
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just go pantheon and punch him in the face with your spear!
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On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment)
idk, i was under the impression you do apen marks, ad quints. Also, i dont think you can say that Apen doesn't help with last hitting, because minions have armor too, so if you have AD quints and AD marks, then the only apen you're getting is from masteries, which would be 6 flat and 10%, which may/may not actually be more than minion armor (kus i'm too lazy to check) but if it doesn't add up to more than minion armor, then you are getting added damage from it. If some1 wants to check, then you can see whether or not AD or APen marks are better vs minions, but i dont think you can just assume that AD will help last hitting signiticantly more (tho it probably will).
in any case, i am also pretty certain that apen marks will help a lot vs champions, and if you have AD quints, i think that's a huge window for last hitting, and don't really see how having flat AD marks would really help as much.
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On December 08 2011 03:58 Mogwai wrote:
just go pantheon and punch him in the face with your spear!
i'm actually getting tired of support, i think i need to get back to my pantheon/urgod roots
i think the most depressing thing is when i play with my bad friends, we only seem to win if i'm playing support, lol
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Minions have like 0 armour @ game start and it takes ages for them to get armour, that said you should be able to cs without any additional ad but in the end it runes are just user preference really as long as you don't gimp yourself by going against a heavy physical dmg dealer with like 0 armour.
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On December 08 2011 03:59 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) idk, i was under the impression you do apen marks, ad quints. Also, i dont think you can say that Apen doesn't help with last hitting, because minions have armor too, so if you have AD quints and AD marks, then the only apen you're getting is from masteries, which would be 6 flat and 10%, which may/may not actually be more than minion armor (kus i'm too lazy to check) but if it doesn't add up to more than minion armor, then you are getting added damage from it. If some1 wants to check, then you can see whether or not AD or APen marks are better vs minions, but i dont think you can just assume that AD will help last hitting signiticantly more (tho it probably will). in any case, i am also pretty certain that apen marks will help a lot vs champions, and if you have AD quints, i think that's a huge window for last hitting, and don't really see how having flat AD marks would really help as much. edit: Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:58 Mogwai wrote:
just go pantheon and punch him in the face with your spear! i'm actually getting tired of support, i think i need to get back to my pantheon/urgod roots i think the most depressing thing is when i play with my bad friends, we only seem to win if i'm playing support, lol
It takes quite a while before minions have more than 6 armor. Their armor goes up every 6 waves (every 3 minuts past 1:30
Specifically: 13:30into the game, melee minions reach 8 armor (at 9 mins into the game they reach 6 armor)
16:30 minutes into the game, caster minions reach 6.25 armor.
Thus, Armor pen marks basically don't aid in last hitting at all until the 13 minute mark, at which point it's still pretty negligible.
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On December 08 2011 04:05 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 03:59 barbsq wrote:On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment) idk, i was under the impression you do apen marks, ad quints. Also, i dont think you can say that Apen doesn't help with last hitting, because minions have armor too, so if you have AD quints and AD marks, then the only apen you're getting is from masteries, which would be 6 flat and 10%, which may/may not actually be more than minion armor (kus i'm too lazy to check) but if it doesn't add up to more than minion armor, then you are getting added damage from it. If some1 wants to check, then you can see whether or not AD or APen marks are better vs minions, but i dont think you can just assume that AD will help last hitting signiticantly more (tho it probably will). in any case, i am also pretty certain that apen marks will help a lot vs champions, and if you have AD quints, i think that's a huge window for last hitting, and don't really see how having flat AD marks would really help as much. edit: On December 08 2011 03:58 Mogwai wrote:
just go pantheon and punch him in the face with your spear! i'm actually getting tired of support, i think i need to get back to my pantheon/urgod roots i think the most depressing thing is when i play with my bad friends, we only seem to win if i'm playing support, lol It takes quite a while before minions have more than 6 armor.
yeah, i ended up looking it up anyways, they spawn with 0 and gain +2 every 3 mins, so it takes 9 minutes to reach 6 armor, so yeah, AD does help a ton more than apen XD lack of research ftl. Still tho, i think the choice of AD or APen marks ends up being which deals more dmg to champions, and that one i'm fairly confident apen ends up the better.
edit: alternatively, another way you can slice the pie is setting up your shit so that you last hit minions with 1 hit under tower. Tbh, that actually might end up being more helpful than anything else you could do with dmg runes.
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On December 08 2011 03:43 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:20 barbsq wrote:On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills What about the 10% ArPen mastery? Chaox claimed that it's the reason Flat AD is now optimal. That said, if the difference in DPS on a moderate armored target is negligible, I'd consider Flat AD to be better because it's ALSO making last hitting better. (both mechanically easier to do, as well as more possible to to get every last hit under tower / under threat of harassment)
the 10% ArPen mastery essentially devalues ArPen Marks to 13.5 ArPen from 15 ArPen. I haven't really run the numbers past that, but that's the core of what 10% ArPen did to the value of ArPen Marks.
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how does 10% apen mastery stack with LW? just for reference
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EPT
