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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 07 2011 19:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets. If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic. A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage. I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided. I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either. And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it. edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass. your argument doesnt make sense. every stat in the game changes the number of attacks required for 1 player to kill another. things like crit and attack speed dont affect some attacks but ad affects all. arp affects all but crit can get you good luck. at the end of the day 1000000 different situations can conclude you needed a different stat to kill that guy a little quicker, your only hope to aggregate the best stat in general is to look at the dps boost.
Please, just stop.
Assume 100 base AD against a target with no armor. To make things simple.
1% crit means 1 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage.
(99*100)+(1*200) = 10100, 10100/100 = 101 average damage per shot.
99% crit means 99 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage.
(1*100)+(99*200) = 19900, 19900/100 = 199 average damage per shot.
100% crit means every attack does 200 damage.
(0*100)+(100*200) = 20000, 20000/100 = 200 average damage per shot.
You can see the correlation here. 1% crit adds an average of 1% damage to your autoattacks. Until you get past 100% crit, there are no diminishing returns. However, because the damage formula per second is based on attack damage, crit chance, crit damage modifiers, attack speed, and armor/arpen, all of which multiply the total DPS you can output, it is almost always better to itemize for everything. 1.5+1.5 = 2, but 1.5*1.5 = 2.25.
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On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... "  wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement
if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage
how are you all struggling with this?
On December 07 2011 19:38 Raynian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:22 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets. If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic. A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage. I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided. I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either. And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it. edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass. your argument doesnt make sense. every stat in the game changes the number of attacks required for 1 player to kill another. things like crit and attack speed dont affect some attacks but ad affects all. arp affects all but crit can get you good luck. at the end of the day 1000000 different situations can conclude you needed a different stat to kill that guy a little quicker, your only hope to aggregate the best stat in general is to look at the dps boost. Please, just stop. Assume 100 base AD against a target with no armor. To make things simple. 1% crit means 1 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage. (99*100)+(1*200) = 10100, 10100/100 = 101 average damage per shot. 99% crit means 99 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage. (1*100)+(99*200) = 19900, 19900/100 = 199 average damage per shot. 100% crit means every attack does 200 damage. (0*100)+(100*200) = 20000, 20000/100 = 200 average damage per shot. You can see the correlation here. 1% crit adds an average of 1% damage to your autoattacks. Until you get past 100% crit, there are no diminishing returns. However, because the damage formula per second is based on attack damage, crit chance, crit damage modifiers, attack speed, and armor/arpen, all of which multiply the total DPS you can output, it is almost always to itemize for everything. 1.5+1.5 = 2, but 1.5*1.5 = 2.25.
your comparing a character who has 101 dps to a character who has 199 dps and then showing that they both gain 1 dps from 1% crit, as a proportion of their damage the 199 guy is gaining less. you arent comparing 2 equal dps characters, 1 is miles better already, and even then it shows you to be wrong.
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Well, from another perspective: When you have 99% crit, you will do 199 average damage. Adding 1% crit will bounce that to 200, giving you 0.5025% more damage when comparing it with 99%. The marginal gain gets smaller the more crit you add.
I wouldn't really call that diminishing return though. Compared to your non-crit auto attack, you add 1% damage.
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On December 07 2011 19:45 h3r1n6 wrote:
Well, from another perspective: When you have 99% crit, you will do 199 average damage. Adding 1% crit will bounce that to 200, giving you 0.5025% more damage when comparing it with 99%. The marginal gain gets smaller the more crit you add.
I wouldn't really call that diminishing return though. Compared to your non-crit auto attack, you add 1% damage.
thats not perspective thats a fact! jesus you are only gaining a 0.5% damage increase, which is what i said last page.
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and this is why we don't argue about the semantics of the term "diminishing returns" (and why you shouldn't use it in the first place)
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On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this? Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:38 Raynian wrote:On December 07 2011 19:22 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets. If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic. A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage. I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided. I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either. And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it. edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass. your argument doesnt make sense. every stat in the game changes the number of attacks required for 1 player to kill another. things like crit and attack speed dont affect some attacks but ad affects all. arp affects all but crit can get you good luck. at the end of the day 1000000 different situations can conclude you needed a different stat to kill that guy a little quicker, your only hope to aggregate the best stat in general is to look at the dps boost. Please, just stop. Assume 100 base AD against a target with no armor. To make things simple. 1% crit means 1 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage. (99*100)+(1*200) = 10100, 10100/100 = 101 average damage per shot. 99% crit means 99 out of every 100 attacks does 200 damage. (1*100)+(99*200) = 19900, 19900/100 = 199 average damage per shot. 100% crit means every attack does 200 damage. (0*100)+(100*200) = 20000, 20000/100 = 200 average damage per shot. You can see the correlation here. 1% crit adds an average of 1% damage to your autoattacks. Until you get past 100% crit, there are no diminishing returns. However, because the damage formula per second is based on attack damage, crit chance, crit damage modifiers, attack speed, and armor/arpen, all of which multiply the total DPS you can output, it is almost always to itemize for everything. 1.5+1.5 = 2, but 1.5*1.5 = 2.25. your comparing a character who has 101 dps to a character who has 199 dps and then showing that they both gain 1 dps from 1% crit, as a proportion of their damage the 199 guy is gaining less. you arent comparing 2 equal dps characters, 1 is miles better already, and even then it shows you to be wrong.
Whoa there... nobody was arguing for a full crit build. Just crit red over arpen reds, which either doesn't make THAT much of a difference (though finding the optimal ones will give an advantage). The arguement going on is if you build AD like normal, will 8% crit or 15 arpen make more difference, which aside from you're tangental spree of arguing and covering your tracks, has been solved. Personally I take arpen, because flat arpen is hard to itemize on AD carries. After reading all the mathcraft going on her, seems like if you're the gambling type, go crit reds so luck can win your lane for you, otherwise go arpen. AD reds only if you really wanna win lane at lvl1.
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On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this?
that wasn't UniversalSnip's example at all. he's saying that if you have 300 AD and 0 crit you gain the same effective AD from 1% crit as if you had 300 AD and 99% crit. your example is just the way multiplicative damage stats work, not "diminishing returns".
maybe' we're not struggling with this, maybe you're just wrong.
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On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this?
If you have 300 AD and 99% crit 1% more crit will give oyu an average off 3 damage. If you have 300 AD with 99% crit and you add 1 AD you gain an average of 2 AD. Therefor, when you have 99% crit 1% crit is always better than 1 AD. I can post stupid and pointless things aswell.
The reason the 300ad player gains more dmg from 1% crit than the 99% crit player is because he has double the 99% crit players ad, not because he already has 99% crit, that's not what has been discussed.
Diminishing Returns
noun
1.
any rate of profit, production, benefits, etc., that beyond a certain point fails to increase proportionately with added investment, effort, or skill.
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I think he's just trying to play this off by saying random shit:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns?
I dunno why. If I tried to pretend I was stupid or joking or trolling every time I said something dumb in this thread I'd have triple the post count.
And everyone is getting baited because the answer is so obvious.
Whatever i'm done with it, topic has been done to death.
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On December 07 2011 19:53 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this? If you have 300 AD and 99% crit 1% more crit will give oyu an average off 3 damage. If you have 300 AD with 99% crit and you add 1 AD you gain an average of 2 AD. Therefor, when you have 99% crit 1% crit is always better than 1 AD. I can post stupid and pointless things aswell. The reason the 300ad player gains more dmg from 1% crit than the 99% crit player is because he has double the 99% crit players ad, not because he already has 99% crit, that's not what has been discussed.
no, your evaluation is completely wrong. you are just saying "150 more ad is better than 98% crit" this is a truely meaningless statement. you can only compared damage gains. your first setence makes some sense. but doesnt matter because you cant compared the cost of +2 ad to +1% crit because theres 100 different examples of different ad levels, much harder to look at.
im comparing 1% crit to 1% crit between 2 players who do the same current damage and then 1 player doing more damage after. your just being a dick.
On December 07 2011 19:50 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this? that wasn't UniversalSnip's example at all. he's saying that if you have 300 AD and 0 crit you gain the same effective AD from 1% crit as if you had 300 AD and 99% crit. your example is just the way multiplicative damage stats work, not "diminishing returns". maybe' we're not struggling with this, maybe you're just wrong.
the reason i dont like the "crit has continual returns" model of thinking about this, is that your way of looking at it values ad as equal the whole way through the game. it is mostly a semantics issue but when 1 ad is worth 1000000 times more at lvl 1 than lvl 18, 2 minutes than 30 minutes. talking about gains in terms of flat numbers seems meaningless. %age gains seems a more reasonable way to look at dps stats
On December 07 2011 19:55 UniversalSnip wrote:I think he's just trying to play this off by saying random shit: + Show Spoiler +On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? I dunno why. If I tried to pretend I was stupid or joking or trolling every time I said something dumb in this thread I'd have triple the post count. And everyone is getting baited because the answer is so obvious. Whatever i'm done with it, topic has been done to death.
the old, leave a dickish remark then proclaim to be done with it, so you get the last word. if you wanted to be done with it, just stop replying rather than be a dick for no reason.
User was warned for this post
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On December 07 2011 19:57 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:53 JackDino wrote:On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this? If you have 300 AD and 99% crit 1% more crit will give oyu an average off 3 damage. If you have 300 AD with 99% crit and you add 1 AD you gain an average of 2 AD. Therefor, when you have 99% crit 1% crit is always better than 1 AD. I can post stupid and pointless things aswell. The reason the 300ad player gains more dmg from 1% crit than the 99% crit player is because he has double the 99% crit players ad, not because he already has 99% crit, that's not what has been discussed. no, your evaluation is completely wrong. you are just saying "150 more ad is better than 98% crit" this is a truely meaningless statement. you can only compared damage gains. your first setence makes some sense. but doesnt matter because you cant compared the cost of +2 ad to +1% crit because theres 100 different examples of different ad levels, much harder to look at. im comparing 1% crit to 1% crit between 2 players who do the same current damage and then 1 player doing more damage after. your just being a dick. Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:50 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:43 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 19:36 starfries wrote:On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement if you are dealing ~300 damage by either having 150 ad with 99% crit, or with 300 ad with 0% crit then add 1% crit to both. the 300 ad player gains more damage how are you all struggling with this? that wasn't UniversalSnip's example at all. he's saying that if you have 300 AD and 0 crit you gain the same effective AD from 1% crit as if you had 300 AD and 99% crit. your example is just the way multiplicative damage stats work, not "diminishing returns". maybe' we're not struggling with this, maybe you're just wrong. the reason i dont like the "crit has continual returns" model of thinking about this, is that your way of looking at it values ad as equal the whole way through the game. it is mostly a semantics issue but when 1 ad is worth 1000000 times more at lvl 1 than lvl 18, 2 minutes than 30 minutes. talking about gains in terms of flat numbers seems meaningless. %age gains seems a more reasonable way to look at dps stats Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:55 UniversalSnip wrote:I think he's just trying to play this off by saying random shit: + Show Spoiler +On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? I dunno why. If I tried to pretend I was stupid or joking or trolling every time I said something dumb in this thread I'd have triple the post count. And everyone is getting baited because the answer is so obvious. Whatever i'm done with it, topic has been done to death. the old, leave a dickish remark then proclaim to be done with it, so you get the last word. if you wanted to be done with it, just stop replying rather than be a dick for no reason.
That's not what DR is, DR is when YOU get less from each subsequent % crit you buy which isn't the case.
It's not DR when someone else gets more damage out of 1% crit because he has different stats to begin with.
It's like saying AP has DR because if player X with 50ap and 20mpen buys 1 AP he gets less dmg compared to player x with 49ap and 21mpen.
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turdburgler
if you have 2 apples and you buy a third
the third doesn't have diminished value just because when you bought the second you got 100% more apples and with the third only 50% more
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United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2011 19:46 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:45 h3r1n6 wrote:
Well, from another perspective: When you have 99% crit, you will do 199 average damage. Adding 1% crit will bounce that to 200, giving you 0.5025% more damage when comparing it with 99%. The marginal gain gets smaller the more crit you add.
I wouldn't really call that diminishing return though. Compared to your non-crit auto attack, you add 1% damage. thats not perspective thats a fact! jesus you are only gaining a 0.5% damage increase, which is what i said last page.
How is reduced % damage increase "diminishing returns"?
If you have 100 AD, buying 1 AD is a 1% damage increase. If you have 200 AD, buying 1 AD is a 0.5% damage increase. Is that diminishing returns too?
It's all bullshit semantics about the term.
On December 07 2011 19:57 turdburgler wrote:
the reason i dont like the "crit has continual returns" model of thinking about this, is that your way of looking at it values ad as equal the whole way through the game. it is mostly a semantics issue but when 1 ad is worth 1000000 times more at lvl 1 than lvl 18, 2 minutes than 30 minutes. talking about gains in terms of flat numbers seems meaningless. %age gains seems a more reasonable way to look at dps stats.
Why would I compare the value of crit at 2 minutes into the game vs. 30 minutes into the game? That comparison doesn't correspond to any item choice decision I would ever make--it's a useless comparison. The only useful comparison is "Do I want to buy crit at 2 minutes or do I want to buy AD at 2 minutes" and likewise "Do I want to buy crit at 30 minutes or do I want to buy AD at 30 minutes"? Cross-comparing the % DPS gains of a stat at different time-points is theorycraft that doesn't yield useful information.
The only thing you care about when making item purchase decisions is the value of all your options at a fixed time-point. The easiest way to do that is to convert them all to equivalent AD. That's why treating stats as a flat DPS increase is useful, because AD is a flat DPS increase stat.
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wikipediaIn economics, diminishing returns (also called diminishing marginal returns) is the decrease in the marginal (per-unit) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant.
We produce damage, we increase the production factor crit. For each point of crit we gain the same amount of damage until we hit 100% crit.
Therefore:
NO DIMINISHING RETURNS UNTIL YOU HIT 100% CRIT
What is your thought process, anyways? You have a certain amount of gold. You use gold to buy damage. Not to buy a % increase in damage.
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United States37500 Posts
ITT: I realize how bad people are at arguing their stances.
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NEO HWAITING! Why don't you stream?
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Apparently there is a short commando for removing the ui. How the fuck do I get it back?
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So much mathcrafting. This game is much more about farming, killing, map awareness, positioning, not dying... etc. When you have money you get anything your champion needs, if its not a retarded item it will help you whether it gives you AD, Crit, AS, whatever.
Who really cares about +-15 damage per hit if you are something like late game Trist. Its more about how well your playing rather than the math.
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Hey look Neoillusions being a badass soraka and Cop vs Nhat and Doublelift. Battle of the epic awesomeness! I don't know who I want to win T_T!
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Come on guys I really neeed the help I might lose a game because of it :<
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EPT
